Perhaps learn the language you're attempting to lecture others on.They/Them are plural. If he doesn't want to be addressed as him/her then has to be 'It', which is the only gender neutral singular adjective.
Absolutely false. Read some grammar guides, like the most prominent Associated Press guide for example.They/Them are plural. If he doesn't want to be addressed as him/her then has to be 'It', which is the only gender neutral singular.
Actually no it isnt. For most people 'they' means two or more people.well that's offensive.
it's p easy to understand this shit man.
Actually no it isnt. For most people 'they' means two or more people.
I didnt mean any offense. Just because you and your bubble are clued up on this doesnt mean everyone is. Infact you probably are in the minority. I learned alot from this thread about non binary people - thats why i said i didnt understand ffs.
We can even see this through some studies that have been conducted in the past that show that there is a biological component to this as well :
"Several studies have found a correlation between gender identity and brain structure.[7] A first-of-its-kind study by Zhou et al. (1995) found that in a region of the brain called the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), a region which is known for sex and anxiety responses (and which is affected by prenatal androgens),[8] male-to-female trans women had a female-normal BSTc size (like cisgender women) and female-to-male trans men had a male-normal size. While the transsexuals studied had taken hormones, this was accounted for by including non-transsexual male and female controls who, for a variety of medical reasons, had experienced hormone reversal. The controls still had sizes typical for their gender. No relationship to sexual orientation was found"
(Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexuality#Brain_structure)
Not true, they has singular usage.They/Them are plural. If he doesn't want to be addressed as him/her then has to be 'It', which is the only gender neutral singular.
There's a level of absurdity regarding the length of discussion on this that I struggle to wrap my head around.
The "they/them" thing would be awkward as hell given that it'd require restructuring of sentences on the fly to get around the non-specificity of using an established pronoun that is typically used to refer to a collective of people in the third person.
"Who are you talking about? The group?"
"No, the individual."
"Oh, his name--
"They-- Their name is _____"
It can be used in place of singular pronouns (as above) but that requires the context to be clear so as for the other to not think they're referring to a thing or collective that lacks a singular identity.
I get not wanting to be pinned down to non-binary terms but this one is just weird and awkward for everyone. Especially as it is more likely to be used in instances when the individual in question is not present.
In my head its "they" = two or more identities/genders/persons in one body.There's a level of absurdity regarding the length of discussion on this that I struggle to wrap my head around.
The "they/them" thing would be awkward as hell given that it'd require restructuring of sentences on the fly to get around the non-specificity of using an established pronoun that is typically used to refer to a collective of people in the third person.
"Who are you talking about? The group?"
"No, the individual."
"Oh, his name--
"They-- Their name is _____"
It can be used in place of singular pronouns (as above) but that requires the context to be clear so as for the other to not think they're referring to a thing or collective that lacks a singular identity.
In society there are common rules usually to make life easier. Can you imagine a situation whereby every single person had a custom list of pronouns they wanted to be addressed as.I swear these threads always become grammar seminar past post 10. Just respect whatever damn pronouns a human being want to be called with and carry on.
Again:In society there are common rules usually to make life easier. Can you imagine a situation whereby every single person had a custom list of pronouns they wanted to be addressed as.
Perhaps learn the language you're attempting to lecture others on.
In society there are common rules usually to make life easier. Can you imagine a situation whereby every single person had a custom list of pronouns they wanted to be addressed as.
Pronouns aren't being rewritten. It's not like fundamental elements of language are shifting. And, even if they were, they're only shifting to better represent reality.In society there are common rules usually to make life easier. Can you imagine a situation whereby every single person had a custom list of pronouns they wanted to be addressed as.
There's a level of absurdity regarding the length of discussion on this that I struggle to wrap my head around.
The "they/them" thing would be awkward as hell given that it'd require restructuring of sentences on the fly to get around the non-specificity of using an established pronoun that is typically used to refer to a collective of people in the third person.
"Who are you talking about? The group?"
"No, the individual."
"Oh, his name--
"They-- Their name is _____"
It can be used in place of singular pronouns (as above) but that requires the context to be clear so as for the other to not think they're referring to a thing or collective that lacks a singular identity.
So, to go off topic a little bit, I'm personally wary of using biology to argue for the validity of trans and enby folks, because on a scientific basis, everything you are is informed by biology (unless you believe in the existence of an immaterial soul), and also because it leads us down some uncomfortable rabbit holes.
On the topic of gender identity and brains, my first issue is that we have trouble even telling cis male and cis female brains apart, and it seems to me that going further to make assertions about trans female vs cis male brains as an exercise in confirmation bias. Just skimming wiki article, there are observational studies done on with sample sizes of like, twenty. Don't get me wrong, I do believe that differences must exist, but I'm not convinced we can show that at the current level of science.
And of course, even assuming that these authors are right and the features of these brains *do* have strong predictive power, what kind of groups are being left out in the study? What about people who identify as trans but *don't* experience dysphoria? What about the enbies?
Going even further, where would this knowledge lead? Are we going to gatekeep people from hormone replacement therapies if their brains aren't trans binary enough? What sort of terrible shit would we do if we could identify transgender brains in the womb?
Also holy fuck that article has waaaay too much Blanchard in it.
Holy shit I'm so glad to see that someone else has this same line of thinking. It also rubs me the wrong way as a primary argument since it retroactively validates transphobia from before such brain scans existed. I don't wanna derail though because that's both OT and not what KetKat was doing.Going even further, where would this knowledge lead? Are we going to gatekeep people from hormone replacement therapies if their brains aren't trans binary enough? What sort of terrible shit would we do if we could identify transgender brains in the womb?
It isn't a difficult adaptation? Come on... Expecting everyone else to know and adapt their language usage, something engrained into society over the course of centuries, is absurd.Yeah language changes and people adapt to it. It isn't really just a difficult adaptation. People just resist it because people self-concept is too entangled to the idea of gender. Specially men.
The least offensive thing would be to use their actual pronouns instead of going out of your way to avoid them.I'm just going to call people by their names. It seems the least offensive.
Read before you make a post please.They/Them are plural. If he doesn't want to be addressed as him/her then has to be 'It', which is the only gender neutral singular.
Holy shit I'm so glad to see that someone else has this same line of thinking. It also rubs me the wrong way as a primary argument since it retroactively validates transphobia from before such brain scans existed. I don't wanna derail though because that's both OT and not what KetKat was doing.
we can tell when people intentionally try to avoid using our pronouns. it sucks. all we want is respect.I'm just going to call people by their names. It seems the least offensive.
I had no idea what "non-binary" mean when I opened this thread. I thought it was a sexual orientation.
They/Them are plural. If he doesn't want to be addressed as him/her then has to be 'It', which is the only gender neutral singular.
I'm just going to call people by their names. It seems the least offensive.
The two are commonly conflated.I had no idea what "non-binary" mean when I opened this thread. I thought it was a sexual orientation.
I said it can be used in the singular but the context has to be clear. It removes flexibility of the language and limits the vocal expression of the speaker in how they communicate their thoughts.It's really not that awkward unless you make it that way.
"Who are you talking about?"
"Oh, James"
"Okay, cool. Please continue"
Just like you would do if you were confused who someone was referring to when they used he or him. It already is a singular pronoun, and has been for over 500 years.
Whatever, you're clearly going to paint my perspective in a very negative way. I actually feel like "they" can be confusing in some contexts when it isn't about non-binary people. But you're clearly going to believe what you want. I never said it's not used every day. I said some people use it, but it isn't the staple answer in the same way he and she are understood. Its use came from there not existing an actual gender less singular pronoun and it was the simplest way to repurpose a word.
I'm not going to bother discussing with you anymore though if it's just going to be vague accusations of transphobia.
it's easy: when someone tells you what their pronouns are, you use them. if you need to ask, do so. why is this such a herculean task for cis people???Same here, and never heard of Sam Smith either. How am I supposed to remember what pronoun that every random person in the world wants to be used for them?
Read the thread and appreciate that what the user wrote is patently false.
It isn't a difficult adaptation? Come on... Expecting everyone else to know and adapt their language usage, something engrained into society over the course of centuries, is absurd.
I'll respect people's wish to be referred to their own choice of pronouns (even an invented one) but at least try to fit it in with established rules of the language you speak.
Sam Smith is setting themselves (even using like this is a little odd) up for a real hard time with this one.
I'm just going to call people by their names. It seems the least offensive.
That's not true. Languages change as dictated through the needs of society as a collective. Gender is biological, that is not an opinion but scientific fact, which is why it became part of language.Yeah language changes and people adapt to it. It isn't really just a difficult adaptation. People just resist it because people self-concept is too entangled to the idea of gender. Specially men.
They same way humans are capable of remembering a name? It's not hard.Same here, and never heard of Sam Smith either. How am I supposed to remember what pronoun that every random person in the world wants to be used for them?
Oh look, another nugget of nonsense.That's not true. Languages change as dictated through the needs of society as a collective. Gender is biological, that is not an opinion but science, which is why it became part of language.
Same way you do for people with gender neutral names / appearances.Same here, and never heard of Sam Smith either. How am I supposed to remember what pronoun that every random person in the world wants to be used for them?
I'm still learning my Greek pronounsPerhaps learn the language you're attempting to lecture others on.
That's not true. Languages change as dictated through the needs of society as a collective. Gender is biological, that is not an opinion but scientific fact, which is why it became part of language.
The important part was "as a primary argument" (which I acknowledge you aren't doing). My line of thinking is that if the main argument against a transphobe is one of science, then the implication is that acceptance of trans identities can be contingent on said science. That's not to say it's not true, but that it doesn't matter. Hope that makes sense, but it would probably be better to take it to PM if you wanna continue this conversation. I got nothing against anything that you've actually posted in this thread.It does not validate transphobia in any way, and I'm not sure how you're reading it like that. We are not capable of brain scans like that right now in present day, and that does not mean that transphobia is valid right now or that it ever has been in the past.
It seems like you're still learning most things.
Sam Smith seems like they've made this announcement without understanding the nuance of English language. It isn't a surprising thing as many native speakers never have to consciously learn the rules of the language they speak.I don't think they're going to rage or anything everytime they're addressed with the wrong pronoun. They'll understand not everybody knows/remembers about this.
There is a difference between genuine mistakes and lack of respect.
The hard time will not come with making people understand this, but with people who don't want to understand. I think they're used to it, I mean they are homosexual. Won't change much, a branch of people will accept it and move on and another branch will shit on them like they used to do before this.
Now that you know, just try to remember, I guess. It's this simple really.
I was only sticking up for the dude you were rude to originally who asked a simple question in a discussion thread. The fact that you took it this far proves my point. Being courteous and just throwing up a quick explanation to help someone genuinely trying to join in on the conversation and learn would've gone a long way than being an ass and saying go google it. Saying that discourages people from even remotely wanting to learn or want to sympathize with people. Like I said though. I only responded to stick up for the person you were quick to dismiss who genuinely wanted an answer. People like you disappoint me and are their own worst enemy.
you just need to go read like the Associated Press / AP Style Guide or something. Would really help clarify your poor grasp of modern English.Sam Smith seems like they've made this announcement without understanding the nuance of English language. It isn't a surprising thing as many native speakers never have to consciously learn the rules of the language they speak.
As I said before I'd rather they'd use an invented singular pronoun than expect everyone to use an existing easily misinterpreted pronoun.