Sajam: "Fighting Games Are Not Inherently Harder to Learn Than Other Competitive Games"

[Oddish1]

What fighting game released in 2019 doesn't have an arcade mode and tutorial though? You can play that if you want to try the mechanics without going online. But the meat and potatoes of the fighting game genre is, and always will be, playing other human beings. I don't see people asking for MOBA's to have singleplayer campaings because that's another genre where the entire point is to play against other people.

What we do need for fighting games is: waaaay better netcode, way better matchmaking, crossplay and maybe something like unlockables cosmetics/levels that you gain even losing so that you're not completely disincouraged when you lose.

And I say that you don't need to go to training mode and practice long-ass combos because I've seen friends IRL tell me that and I had to drill that out of their heads. There are absolutely people that think that you're only ready to play bronze-league online matches if your combo game is on point.

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What fighting games need is more compelling single player content. A bare bones arcade mode isn't enough anymore. If you want people to play online against other people the game has to properly teach them the mechanics first in a safe environment. Most fighting game arcade modes and even training modes are really terrible at this. They just aren't engaging enough on their own. Admittedly, I'm not even sure what engaging single player content for fighting games can be.

People learned how to play fighting games before the internet, before we had training modes, and when we had to pay 25 or 50 cents after every loss. I don't know why people in 2019, with all of the modern resources available, think they need training mode first.

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Well, it's 2019 and arcades are dead. Most people don't learn video games playing them on the couch with their friends. People play them alone or online. Which means fighting games need to teach mechanics through their single player content. Which fighting games are very bad at doing. Which is why people feel like they need to start in training mode.

 

[Professor Beef]

Most people don't learn video games playing them on the couch with their friends. People play them alone or online.

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[Oddish1]

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Do you think most people learn how to play fighting games playing them on a couch with friends?

 

[skillzilla81]

Well, it's 2019 and arcades are dead. Most people don't learn video games playing them on the couch with their friends. People play them alone or online. Which means fighting games need to teach mechanics through their single player content. Which fighting games are very bad at doing. Which is why people feel like they need to start in training mode.

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Weird, didn't need friends, online, or training mode to teach me. Seems like people have more resources than ever before if they actually wanted to learn.

Seems like they just don't want to learn. Which is what these threads reiterate, constantly.

 

[Oddish1]

Weird, didn't need friends, online, or training mode to teach me. Seems like people have more resources than ever before if they actually wanted to learn.

Seems like they just don't want to learn. Which is what these threads reiterate, constantly.

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That was part of my point. We are in agreement on people not wanting to learn. Although I blame fighting games for not being engaging enough or lowering the execution barrier enough. Whereas it sounds like you blame other people for not finding it engaging.

 

[TimeFire]

What fighting games need is more compelling single player content. A bare bones arcade mode isn't enough anymore. If you want people to play online against other people the game has to properly teach them the mechanics first in a safe environment. Most fighting game arcade modes and even training modes are really terrible at this. They just aren't engaging enough on their own. Admittedly, I'm not even sure what engaging single player content for fighting games can be.


Well, it's 2019 and arcades are dead. Most people don't learn video games playing them on the couch with their friends. People play them alone or online. Which means fighting games need to teach mechanics through their single player content. Which fighting games are very bad at doing. Which is why people feel like they need to start in training mode.

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Hmm. I still don't think a single player sandbox is the solution. You can't teach fighting games in a safe environment because the fun comes from the grime and dirt of a real match. People would get bored real easily of playing against bots because that's, well, super boring.

I think a reasonable option is to gamefy the online experience even more. Instead of Online being just the journey from Blue Ranks to Tekken Master or w/e, maybe try a model with lots of little rewards so that even if someone loses, they can think "Man, at least I unlocked Kyo's new jacket... I'll play just another match to see how it looks."

Also, that's something a lot of fighting games are really bad about nowadays. You don't get the feeling of "maybe juuuuust another match" because it just takes too long to get into matches! The amount of loading is way too much and you still need to spend some time finding an opponent. Crossplay would also help on this because it means a bigger pool of players for all games.

 

[skillzilla81]

That was part of my point. We are in agreement on people not wanting to learn. Although I blame fighting games for not being engaging enough or lowering the execution barrier enough. Whereas it sounds like you blame other people for not finding it engaging.

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There are fighting games without the execution stipulations. There are fighting games more difficult than anything ever. There are fighting games with tons of single player content, amazing tutorials, and great netcode. There's literally a fighting game out there for everybody that addresses every single one of the complaints we see in this thread and every one like it.

What it boils down to is that SPECIFIC fighting games that people might want to play aren't doing everything they want. People want to homogenize a ton of shit in fighting games, according to these threads just so they can play that particular game.

And hey, that's cool, we're selfish people, it's disposable entertainment. I just wish people would be honest about it. Instead of complaining that fighting games are too hard, have too many combos, or whatever, just say that you want SF to be play like (insert other fighter here).

 

[TimeFire]

There are fighting games without the execution stipulations. There are fighting games more difficult than anything ever. There are fighting games with tons of single player content, amazing tutorials, and great netcode. There's literally a fighting game out there for everybody that addresses every single one of the complaints we see in this thread.

What it boils down to is that SPECIFIC fighting games that people might want to play aren't doing everything they want. People want to homogenize a ton of shit in fighting games, according to these threads just so they can play that particular game.

And hey, that's cool, we're selfish people, it's disposable entertainment. I just wish people would be honest about it. Instead of complaining that fighting games are too hard, have too many combos, or whatever, just say that you want SF to be play like (insert other fighter here).

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In my defense, a Street Fighter that plays like Guity Gear would be sick

 

[ABIC]

It's not that fighting games are hard to learn, it's that they're daunting.

It's hardcore brutal 1v1. There's no one else to blame -- not other players and not AI. It's not like in a game where you can get outnumbered by other players and just say it was bad luck. Or you had a shitty teammate. Or that the AI cheated.

Straight on someone else is obviously better than you and it's a zero sum game.

 

[A Strong Latte]

Why do fighting games keep getting away with this whole "if you don't play fighting games you're WRONG about why you don't like them" thing?

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I think it's pretty straight forward that if you don't have any experience with something you shouldn't be trying to talk from a position of authority about it. I can't play FPS at a high level so I don't talk shit about FPS.

I think Sajam is on the money here. The thing where he talks about how if you get fucking owned in a MOBA you have to sit there for 40 minutes getting owned wheras in an FG you only get owned for like a minute max before you can try again and make improvements/learn/do something new/play someone else.

 

[Oddish1]

There are fighting games without the execution stipulations. There are fighting games more difficult than anything ever. There are fighting games with tons of single player content, amazing tutorials, and great netcode. There's literally a fighting game out there for everybody that addresses every single one of the complaints we see in this thread and every one like it.

What it boils down to is that SPECIFIC fighting games that people might want to play aren't doing everything they want. People want to homogenize a ton of shit in fighting games, according to these threads just so they can play that particular game.

And hey, that's cool, we're selfish people, it's disposable entertainment. I just wish people would be honest about it. Instead of complaining that fighting games are too hard, have too many combos, or whatever, just say that you want SF to be play like (insert other fighter here).

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Well, I'm speaking about fighting games in general should have lower execution barrier and more compelling single player content. I don't think every fighting game has to do this but at least more should.

Fighting games have two options. They can either try to change to be more appealing or they can stay the same. It's fine if you or the FGC want fighting games to stay the same. But at least own it. Don't project outwards and say it's other people's fault for not finding it engaging or thinking it's too difficult.

 

[A Strong Latte]

The thing about training mode is true too. So many people think you need 60 hours in training mode master bnbs, hit frame perfect combos, etc but that's totally bullshit. but you can't actually learn to fight unless you actually grind matches.

There are so many people who at a low level can hit these wild combos but have absolutely no game sense or strategy. focusing on tech skill over all else makes you a busted ass player

 

[myco666]

If fighting games need better ways to communicate on why you lost then so do FPS games. All they tell is where the enemy was and what weapon they were using. How I can tell what the counter to that is?

Yes they are inherently harder.

They have a lot of obtuse ,arbitrary and non-intuitive(just cause developers say so) type of mechanics.

Much of the stuff you just learn through sheer struggle or you just have learn to accept them.

Thats not to mention the massive execution. Sometimes you know what to do but you won't be able to do it.

Compeitive shooters have a simple aim and shoot core which just about anyone can do to varying degrees. Nothing like that exists in fighting games.

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Fighting games at their core is move around the stage and press the attack button. How is this not like moving, aiming and shooting?

But, like, who are these videos FOR? The fighting game fans, so they can feel really smart and intelligent and nod sagely to themselves about how they aren't ignorant, unlike the rest of the unwashed masses? Because they sure as hell can't be for non-fighting game fans. If someone dislikes something, then saying they're technically wrong about why they dislike it isn't going to make them give it another shot. At best you'll get a begrudging "Fine, whatever, but I still hate them." out of that type of discussion.

It all feels like an intentionally slanted and one-sided attempt to mock people that aren't interested in a certain type of game. We don't see that with other games and it baffles me that fighting games get away with it.

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Mock? How is this video mocking anyone? All it does is say FG aren't any harder competitive genre than other competitive genre. It also comes from a person who has gotten into all esports genres. You know from someone who actually put effort to learn all these games instead from a person who deemed a genre too hard and didn't even properly try.

 

[skillzilla81]

Well, I'm speaking about fighting games in general should have lower execution barrier and more compelling single player content. I don't think every fighting game has to do this but at least more should.

Fighting games have two options. They can either try to change to be more appealing or they can stay the same. It's fine if you or the FGC want fighting games to stay the same. But at least own it. Don't project outwards and say it's other people's fault for not finding it engaging or thinking it's too difficult.

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And I'm saying there are games already out there doing exactly that. /shrug

 

[Kill3r7]

I am sure others have already made this point but fighting games are primarily 1v1 PvP game modes. Outside of sports games, such modes do rather poorly because they highlight new players shortcomings and often lead to players getting thrashed. Also, in the current PvP gaming climate they lack a win now button or a way for the modern player to feel good about themselves.

 

[Professor Beef]

Well, I'm speaking about fighting games in general should have lower execution barrier and more compelling single player content.

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Most do. People still complain.

 

[myco666]

If you don't have friends who help you ease the process then all the genres are equally hard to learn. There could be some nuances like some games offering better tutorials or having controls similar to games you already play ( If you play a lot of AAA Shooters then jumping into an MP shooter is a little easier ).

I think the major thing that people seem to misunderstand is that FGs seem like the least fun to learn.

I know Sajam says you dont need to grind training mode and you work on anti airs and footsies. But eventually you are going to hit a point where dropping that BnB/Hitconfirm is killing you and you have to go to training mode to grind it out. In a MOBA most the execution requirements is very situation based you cant replicate it in training mode ( There could be exceptions like invoker ). In a FPS you improve your aim against real players. You could use some kind of training mode but its not really required like a FG.

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I haven't played MOBAs so I can't really comment on those but RTS and FPS def require you grinding execution at some point. While you can learn by playing matches in those games it also helps immensely if you just practice your apm in RTS games outside of matches or your aim precision in FPS outside of matches. If for example you realize your aim is bit off you should hit aim practice instead of just playing matches.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

yeah, people got lazier

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Do kids even know how to read a book?

 

[DealWithIt]

Honestly the hardest competitive game to learn to play correctly is starcraft 1, followed by starcraft 2. Then a big gap, then a glut of other games which each tax a different set if faculties differently. Depending on what you do well, different games will have different barriers to entry.

 

[Iori Loco]

Do kids even know how to read a book?

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I would if only I knew how to turn them on :/

 

[Luminish]

Are we talking about getting into the top 50% and being a totally average player, or getting into the top 1% of players and breaking into the esport scene?

You can't break into esports for any non-turn based game without drilling the muscle memory until its second nature, but only fighting games require you to drill that muscle memory just to play the game somewhat competently.

I feel like he's talking as if everyone's goal is to break into esports, where of course fighting games are no harder for than any other genre, but I don't think most people complaining about fighting games being hard to learn are aiming to make income off their future fighting game abilities.

 

[A Strong Latte]

I'm platinum in SFV after about 1k hours and that's like.. the top 5% of players?

In Dota 2 I've played 3k hours and I'm crusader 3 this season. that's like bottom 60% or something. FG time investment is not as big as moba. And you can just play forever as a mediocre player in sfv online mode if that's what you want (or tekken)

Even in tekken 7, which has been the hardest FG for me to learn I got to green names after not playing a tekken before 7 in ~100hours.

 

[Shadoken]

I haven't played MOBAs so I can't really comment on those but RTS and FPS def require you grinding execution at some point. While you can learn by playing matches in those games it also helps immensely if you just practice your apm in RTS games outside of matches or your aim precision in FPS outside of matches. If for example you realize your aim is bit off you should hit aim practice instead of just playing matches.

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I really dont think RTS should be brought into the equation because RTS is also a genre that is hard to get into and is niche now. That is why MOBAs ate a huge portion of their audience.

Practicing your aim in an FPS is definitely something you can do but you can also gain skill by map awareness,positioning...etc just by playing in an organic manner. In a FG if you cant do a hadoken and shoryuken you are going to hit that cap real quick.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

Either more games adopt fighting game inputs, or fighting games need to adopt more mainstream controls.

That's the only way I see solving this perception problem.

 

[skillzilla81]

Either more games adopt fighting game inputs, or fighting games need to adopt more mainstream controls.

That's the only way I see solving this perception problem.

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I don't see a problem. We're seeing more fighting games being made than we have in a long time.

I guess there's a problem for everybody that wants every fighting game to be Smash or something. Devs are obviously happy, else we wouldn't be seeing so many games.

Great time for fighting game fans, imo.

 

[Deleted member 22405]

Either more games adopt fighting game inputs, or fighting games need to adopt more mainstream controls.

That's the only way I see solving this perception problem.

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Lord I hope for the former, the latter simplifies games too much. I like my move lists going beyond 22 and quarter circles.

 

[A Strong Latte]

Even if you have mainstream controls, and straightforward things like universal overheads and anti air (like how guilty gear has stuff like dust and 6p) people will do everything possible to ignore these systems and not engage with the game lol

 

[Sander VF]

I think the death of story mode in these games is good chunk of the problem. That is where you learn to play. But what about practice or survial modes? Those really aren't the same, the carrot of learning about your character and unlocking shit can't be beat.

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The vast majority of fighting games have story modes.

I personally find the vast majority of them underwhelming at best, but they are there.

 

[myco666]

Are we talking about getting into the top 50% and being a totally average player, or getting into the top 1% of players and breaking into the esport scene?

You can't break into esports for any non-turn based game without drilling the muscle memory until its second nature, but only fighting games require you to drill that muscle memory just to play the game somewhat competently.

I feel like he's talking as if everyone's goal is to break into esports, where of course fighting games are no harder for than any other genre, but I don't think most people complaining about fighting games being hard to learn are aiming to make income off their future fighting game abilities.

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You really don't need that much muscle memory to play FGs somewhat competently. Thought that depends on the criteria. Getting to better side of 50% of players atleast shouldn't.

I really dont think RTS should be brought into the equation because RTS is also a genre that is hard to get into and is niche now. That is why MOBAs ate a huge portion of their audience.

Practicing your aim in an FPS is definitely something you can do but you can also gain skill by map awareness,positioning...etc just by playing in an organic manner. In a FG if you cant do a hadoken and shoryuken you are going to hit that cap real quick.

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And you can only really learn stuff like fundamentals only by playing matches. You also can do well enough without knowing how to do SRK by picking a char that doesn't have that input. Not to mention that you can beat people by just using normals even on highest level of online play.

 

[Sander VF]

Sajam is seriously underestimating the Team vs Solo aspect. He is just brushing it aside as "oh in team games your teammates flame you". That doesn't really matter because you are still playing with your friend and maybe even the whole team are your friends. The "recruitment" process is less intimidating and fun. In a FG you can play with your friend and that person has to sandbag like crazy to make it even and the gameplay is hardly any fun.

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What if someone made KoF-style 3V3 fighting game where every fighter is a different player. It's three players vs 3 players online. Could a mode like that help?

 

[Shadoken]

And you can only really learn stuff like fundamentals only by playing matches. You also can do well enough without knowing how to do SRK by picking a char that doesn't have that input. Not to mention that you can beat people by just using normals even on highest level of online play.

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True , SFV has characters like Ed where you dont need to master weird motions.

Maybe for SFVI Capcom should bring back ISMs like Alpha 3. They can keep an X-ISM where characters will have very basic moves and mechanics , but they are very easy to use like one button specials,simpler Vtriggers..etc.

The advanced players and pros would pick the other ISMs which have better frame data on moves but they will play more similar to traditional fighters.

 

[Shadoken]

What if someone made KoF-style 3V3 fighting game where every fighter is a different player. It's three players vs 3 players online. Could a mode like that help?

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Even in that mode you are not actively playing together , as it is 3 separate rounds.

But its still good thing that could help. Like if 3 friends are playing. Even if one of them is a newbie , even if he just damaged the enemy by 50-60% that would be a huge accomplishment. And the positive feedback would make his experience more fun.

The issue is these modes are never taken seriously or never marketed as the main draw. I think Capcom did this once with SFxT for EVO, but I never see it becoming the main mode. Maybe moving towards a more Team based fighting game mode could help the genre a lot.

Edit : I remember back in the PS1/2 era , WWE games were super popular. One of the ways we would balance out local MP when new people play is with tag team mode. Idk why FGs online these days never really focus on team matches. Like Team battle Matchmaking is usually dead.

 

[Professor Beef]

What if someone made KoF-style 3V3 fighting game where every fighter is a different player. It's three players vs 3 players online. Could a mode like that help?

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1) Street Fighter x Tekken had that mode. It went about as well as you might expect. Smash also has that mode but it rarely sees play.
2) If you were to implement that online, given the sketchy history of fighting game netcode, it would be a nightmare to connect 6 people.

 

[Sander VF]

1) Street Fighter x Tekken had that mode. It went about as well as you might expect. Smash also has that mode but it rarely sees play.

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Does it? I mean I guess you can do Team fights (as in, at the same time) online in arena mode, but that's all I know of.

But its still good thing that could help. Like if 3 friends are playing. Even if one of them is a newbie , even if he just damaged the enemy by 50-60% that would be a huge accomplishment. And the positive feedback would make his experience more fun.

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Yeah, that's what I had in mind.

I keep getting these ideas about "making FGs accessible", but I'm an ignorant scrub so I don't know if they are practical/acceptable or not.

Another one was giving you battle pass like objectives online like "do X amounts of damage" or perform this or that in a match, so that you're accomplishing something even if you're still losing in the end. You know, to have that positive feedback loop going.

Another was a particularly dumb one. I read Gears of War had that thing where they secretly buffed a newbies' damage output to make them feel good in the first couple of matches, but of course such a thing would be awful in FGs, so instead I thought about making a "Phantom Jobber". So you have big losing streak and you're matched up with an AI disguised as a real player with a player name and everything . You beat up that AI and feel a bit better about yourself as you get back into real matches. You don't know it was an AI designed to job to you, no one ever finds out it's a thing until developers let it slip (like with Gears) or people figure it out somehow. I think I posted this idea in the past and people pointed out issues with it, but I forgot all about it.

 

[Deleted member 203]

I love fighting games and Tekken 7 is one of my all-time favorite games but this argument is such bubblethink, it's delusional. When you have to spend hours in the lab before you should even THINK about going online, yeah, the barrier to entry is simply higher. Once you get over the initial hump of understanding the basics, you can switch between games more easily, but even I gave up on learning SC6 relatively quickly because man, I just can't devote another half dozen hours just to learn to get competent with one single character. I play Tekken a lot but basically stick to one character because even learning a new character in the same game is often a lot of work.

Sure, some people make it seem harder than it is, but it's just not true to say the barrier to entry isn't extremely high if you have any interest at all in playing other people. And you pretty much always need resources from outside of the game just to understand basic concepts. It's nowhere near impossible but it requires a certain mindset and it's definitely a lot harder to get into at a basic competency level than most other genres.

 

[Meia]

Speaking from my experience, I played a lot of sf2 back in the day, then largely nothing until like sf4. I start up a game now and Im still largely lost. Counter systems, cancelling, things like that may as well be another language.

I have a friend who has always played fighting games. New games come out, we can be competitive for maybe an hour or so before the near perfect strings begin. It's usually at this point that I kind of just put the game down and walk away.

FPSs don't really have situations like this, unless it's someone using a totally different input(controller vs keyboard/mouse) or someone who doesn't "get" how to move around a first or third peeson environment. Both of these problems can be picked up with other games in other genres. Can't exactly pick up cancelling in a Dark Souls game. :p

 

[Shadoken]

Speaking from my experience, I played a lot of sf2 back in the day, then largely nothing until like sf4. I start up a game now and Im still largely lost. Counter systems, cancelling, things like that may as well be another language.

I have a friend who has always played fighting games. New games come out, we can be competitive for maybe an hour or so before the near perfect strings begin. It's usually at this point that I kind of just put the game down and walk away.

FPSs don't really have situations like this, unless it's someone using a totally different input(controller vs keyboard/mouse) or someone who doesn't "get" how to move around a first or third peeson environment. Both of these problems can be picked up with other games in other genres. Can't exactly pick up cancelling in a Dark Souls game. :p

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I hear this a lot from many people actually. But the truth is even those old games had all these systems. Its just that back then everyone was playing at a very basic fundamental level. So now the skill gap between a new player and the average FG player has gone waaay higher. You can try games like Sam Sho where its a little easier tho.

 

[myco666]

True , SFV has characters like Ed where you dont need to master weird motions.

Maybe for SFVI Capcom should bring back ISMs like Alpha 3. They can keep an X-ISM where characters will have very basic moves and mechanics , but they are very easy to use like one button specials,simpler Vtriggers..etc.

The advanced players and pros would pick the other ISMs which have better frame data on moves but they will play more similar to traditional fighters.

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This sounds like a good idea to make newbies to have no idea why something didn't work in a match since now same exact attack would have different properties.

I love fighting games and Tekken 7 is one of my all-time favorite games but this argument is such bubblethink, it's delusional. When you have to spend hours in the lab before you should even THINK about going online, yeah, the barrier to entry is simply higher. Once you get over the initial hump of understanding the basics, you can switch between games more easily, but even I gave up on learning SC6 relatively quickly because man, I just can't devote another half dozen hours just to learn to get competent with one single character. I play Tekken a lot but basically stick to one character because even learning a new character in the same game is often a lot of work.

Sure, some people make it seem harder than it is, but it's just not true to say the barrier to entry isn't extremely high if you have any interest at all in playing other people. And you pretty much always need resources from outside of the game just to understand basic concepts. It's nowhere near impossible but it requires a certain mindset and it's definitely a lot harder to get into at a basic competency level than most other genres.

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You don't have to spend hours before jumping online. I spent 5-10minutes in T7 training before I jumped to ranked, had a blast and went pretty even with W-L ratio.

 

[Shadoken]

This sounds like a good idea to make newbies to have no idea why something didn't work in a match since now same exact attack would have different properties.

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Not really all the moves would still serve the same function. If you have played Alpha 3 you would get it a little better. The X-ism was meant for SF2 players where characters had less options but they were higher in damage. Like Ryus shoryuken would do more damage in Xism , but in the more advanced isms you could make his shoryuken do lesser damage but it might have more juggle potential or something like that. What am trying to get at is that people dont need to be instantly intimidated by all the mechanics and can focus on just the fundamental aspect of gameplay. SFV already has characters with one buttons specials like ED and it isn't something OP , its more like training wheels.

Also its not like they would magically be forced to switch , they are making the decision to switch to the more advanced mode so obviously that comes with its own challenges.

Edit : oh wait i realized by properties you meant the input command. Isn't this already in some games though ? Like Simple mode and Advanced mode. Its just that those modes are usually not fleshed out and are not allowed in ranked or something.

 

[TimeFire]

I love fighting games and Tekken 7 is one of my all-time favorite games but this argument is such bubblethink, it's delusional. When you have to spend hours in the lab before you should even THINK about going online, yeah, the barrier to entry is simply higher. Once you get over the initial hump of understanding the basics, you can switch between games more easily, but even I gave up on learning SC6 relatively quickly because man, I just can't devote another half dozen hours just to learn to get competent with one single character. I play Tekken a lot but basically stick to one character because even learning a new character in the same game is often a lot of work.

Sure, some people make it seem harder than it is, but it's just not true to say the barrier to entry isn't extremely high if you have any interest at all in playing other people. And you pretty much always need resources from outside of the game just to understand basic concepts. It's nowhere near impossible but it requires a certain mindset and it's definitely a lot harder to get into at a basic competency level than most other genres.

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What? This is absolutely untrue. I got to green ranks in Tekken just screwing about with Asuka online and I maybe labbed a single bnb for like 10 min just because I wanted to know a combo lol

 

[Deleted member 203]

What? This is absolutely untrue. I got to green ranks in Tekken just screwing about with Asuka online and I maybe labbed a single bnb for like 10 min just because I wanted to know a combo lol

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I'm gonna take a wild guess and say it's probably not your first (3D) fighting game? That's not my experience as a tekken newcomer. Tekken in particular has a lot of obtuse system (movement, wakeup, throw breaks, etc) that it doesn't explain well. I had to learn a lot of that outside the game and I spent a lot of time in the lab early on to memorize my go-to moves (Asuka has an immense move list, I looked up a "10 most useful moves" list online to get started) and get my combos down.

Like I said, I don't think it's impossible, and it gets overblown. As a newbie I was also able to make good headway with Tekken, even moreso than most 2D fighters I ever played, in spite of Tekken's reputation of being super deep and hard. I think it's actually easier to get into than most 2D games, but that's a different conversation.

But to say the barrier to entry to fighting games in general isn't higher than other genres (for someone who plays games) is just not true imo.

 

[alundra311]

What? This is absolutely untrue. I got to green ranks in Tekken just screwing about with Asuka online and I maybe labbed a single bnb for like 10 min just because I wanted to know a combo lol

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While I do agree that you don't need to spend an absurd amount of hours labbing before playing online, but, I'm pretty sure that Tekken isn't your first fighting game. Is it?

 

[myco666]

Not really all the moves would still serve the same function. If you have played Alpha 3 you would get it a little better. The X-ism was meant for SF2 players where characters had less options but they were higher in damage. Like Ryus shoryuken would do more damage in Xism , but in the more advanced isms you could make his shoryuken do lesser damage but it might have more juggle potential or something like that. What am trying to get at is that people dont need to be instantly intimidated by all the mechanics and can focus on just the fundamental aspect of gameplay. SFV already has characters with one buttons specials like ED and it isn't something OP , its more like training wheels.

Also its not like they would magically be forced to switch , they are making the decision to switch to the more advanced mode so obviously that comes with its own challenges.

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Meant it more as in new player facing player A using easy mode ISM and player B using advanced mode ISM back to back. Now they learn some habit to counter a certain attack because you can do that against easy mode ISM version. Then they fight player B and now that move can't be countered that way but its visually the same. This adds too much useless learning for the new player.

 

[FluffyQuack]

I personally think it's crazy talk claiming fighting games are easier to get into than shooters (I'm not gonna comment on MOBAs as I don't play them).

I think one huge difference is having a general idea of how to improve. If you get destroyed in a shooter, then you usually have some kind of idea why it happened. The other guy might have spotted you faster. He might have had better aim. He might have flanked you. Most shooters also have killcams, which makes it even more apparent how you lost.

Now, look at fighting games from a newbie's perspective. They could be facing someone who's simply spamming the same safe or gimmicky move, getting destroyed by it, and not understanding why. Fighting games are awful at explaining their own mechanics, and worse than that, they usually focus on teaching the wrong things.

The most important thing in a fighting game is knowing what to do in neutral. But fighting games usually do one of the following: not explain it at all, only explain it through a big wall of text (I don't mind that personally, but I think most people ignore these kinds of tutorials), or the most common thing: show the player a long list of combos. Knowing how to execute combos won't be of much help if that player doesn't know how to actually make the first hit of a combo connect.

I'd say it's practically mandatory to have a friend teach you how to play fighting games. That, or you need to find a really good tutorial online.

 

[TimeFire]

I'm gonna take a wild guess and say it's probably not your first (3D) fighting game? That's not my experience as a tekken newcomer. Tekken in particular has a lot of obtuse system (movement, wakeup, throw breaks, etc) that it doesn't explain well. I had to learn a lot of that outside the game and I spent a lot of time in the lab early on to memorize my go-to moves (Asuka has an immense move list, I looked up a "10 most useful moves" list online to get started) and get my combos down.

Like I said, I don't think it's impossible, and it gets overblown. As a newbie I was also able to make good headway with Tekken, even moreso than most 2D fighters I ever played, in spite of Tekken's reputation of being super deep and hard. I think it's actually easier to get into than most 2D games, but that's a different conversation.

But to say the barrier to entry to fighting games in general isn't higher than other genres (for someone who plays games) is just not true imo.

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Tekken is my first 3D fighter outside of casual offline Soul Calibur, but I play a lot of 2D fighters, mainly Smash and Guilty Gear, and most fundamentals transfer over.

I remember I used mostly a simple f2 for launch/whiff punish combos, jabs and the can can move (1+3? I think)

 

[Kaguya]

Does it? I mean I guess you can do Team fights (as in, at the same time) online in arena mode, but that's all I know of.

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That format is how the game was played during its first year at EVO:

 

[random88]

Even if you have mainstream controls, and straightforward things like universal overheads and anti air (like how guilty gear has stuff like dust and 6p) people will do everything possible to ignore these systems and not engage with the game lol

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lol, so true. People just don't want to learn, no matter how good training and tutorial modes are.

 

[Alienous]

I personally think it's crazy talk claiming fighting games are easier to get into than shooters (I'm not gonna comment on MOBAs as I don't play them).

I think one huge difference is having a general idea of how to improve. If you get destroyed in a shooter, then you usually have some kind of idea why it happened. The other guy might have spotted you faster. He might have had better aim. He might have flanked you. Most shooters also have killcams, which makes it even more apparent how you lost.

Now, look at fighting games from a newbie's perspective. They could be facing someone who's simply spamming the same safe or gimmicky move, getting destroyed by it, and not understanding why. Fighting games are awful at explaining their own mechanics, and worse than that, they usually focus on teaching the wrong things.

The most important thing in a fighting game is knowing what to do in neutral. But fighting games usually do one of the following: not explain it at all, only explain it through a big wall of text (I don't mind that personally, but I think most people ignore these kinds of tutorials), or the most common thing: show the player a long list of combos. Knowing how to execute combos won't be of much help if that player doesn't know how to actually make the first hit of a combo connect.

I'd say it's practically mandatory to have a friend teach you how to play fighting games. That, or you need to find a really good tutorial online.

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Watching his response video it's clear his viewpoint is directed toward pros, as in professional players don't have an easier time with MOBAs or shooters than with fighting games.

I agree with you. I think fighting games probably have the worst path to competency of any genre, and that doesn't matter at the competitive level, but it does matter in players reaching that point. There is so much work and homework you have to do with fighting games before you feel like you're fully engaging with the mechanics. You'll hear people say 'Don't worry about combos', but nothing in the games communicates that. You have to spend a lot of time feeling like you're missing tools from your toolbelt, and so failure is that much more frustrating when you can't be sure you were equipped to have a chance at succeeding.

 

[Ternary]

I think one of the key differences between a fighting game and an FPS is that you can develop auxiliary skills in an FPS that overcompensate for your weaknesses. For example, if you get really good at the timing and execution of sneaking around level cover and geometry and using that to flank, you can ambush and kill players who by any other metric would be more skilled than you (in fact, this is a cornerstone skill in the battle royale subgenre). In a fighting game, your weaknesses are highly exposed and any auxiliary skills you learn can't cover for them being penetrated and your life bar disappearing.

 

[Kaguya]

I think one of the key differences between a fighting game and an FPS is that you can develop auxiliary skills in an FPS that overcompensate for your weaknesses. For example, if you get really good at the timing and execution of sneaking around level cover and geometry and using that to flank, you can ambush and kill players who by any other metric would be more skilled than you (in fact, this is a cornerstone skill in the battle royale subgenre). In a fighting game, your weaknesses are highly exposed and any auxiliary skills you learn can't cover for them being penetrated and your life bar disappearing.

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You can still do this in fighting games, hell a lot of people do, all the way to the top players. There are a lot of styles in fighting games that cover different skill sets. Even someone like Kazunoko, a Capcom Cup winner in SFIV who also won the equivalent of Capcom Cup for both Guilty Gear Xrd and Dragon Balls Fighter Z admits that he picks the characters he does because he hate/not that good at playing the neutral game. And this is talking champion level, there's a lot more room to get away with weaknesses at lower levels.