Rockstar grants permission to current devs to talk about company on social media

Muffin · Oct 19, 2018

Sheepinator said:
I've said they don't have retention issues and they've paid out $1.9BN in internal royalties in the last 5 years, and will pay out another $500M+ in the coming year. So apparently people aren't feeling all that exploited.

That tells us nothing about the individual situations of the employees. It doesn't tell us if the individual royalties paid out make up for the overtime some of the employees have reportedly worked, and it certainly doesn't tell us who or who doesn't "feel exploited".

There are people having worked there literally telling you how their experience there was, and the negative deserve to be believed just as much as the positive ones.

TraderPoe · Oct 19, 2018

Sheepinator said:
People believed all the devs were being exploited. Then Rockstar clarified it was just Houser and a few others. People still believed what they wanted. Then Rockstar let people post publicly and they said it was fine. People still believed what they wanted. Then Rockstar released time sheets to the Guardian from all their employees. People still believed what they wanted.

She worked 80 hour weeks.

Sheepinator · Oct 19, 2018

TraderPoe said:
She worked 80 hour weeks.

... a decade ago, that tweet said.

Bud23 · Oct 19, 2018

Harp · Oct 19, 2018

Muffin said:
Bullshit, perfect example of a strawman if I ever saw one. Most here are just able to acknowledge that the good experiences don't erase the bad and the bad are the bigger issue here.

I don't think you understand what a strawman is. If Rockstar has clarified and proven that working conditions aren't outrageous, then there's no strawman here- a strawman requires a side to argue in bad faith by making a situation appear weaker than it is, typically through manipulation with zero followup.

Rockstar clarified what they said, then they allowed employees to discuss it, which further proved the case, then they handed over timesheets, which further proved their case. The only strawman here is people saying that conjecture is damning evidence, whereas hard evidence to the contrary disproves that conjecture.

I'm also unclear on why the bad experiences of devs from half a decade plus ago outweigh the good experiences of devs employed now. This is also perplexing to me. You can't just brush the good experiences of devs working there now under the rug by saying they're lying or being held hostage. This is insane. People just want to be outraged over everything.

It's also mindblowing to me how much hypocrisy is brushed under the rug by decrying "whataboutism." If you're going to boycott Rockstar's games over perceived injustices, but keeping playing your PS4 made in a Chinese factory, then you're a fucking hypocrite, and no amount of accusing me of arguing in bad faith is going to change that. Enjoy your smartphone, too, and all of the indie games made by teams of twelve devs working 100+ hours a week with no overtime. Jesus christ.

LuisGarcia · Oct 19, 2018

Bud23 said:

People on resetera know better.

Heynongman! · Oct 19, 2018

Sheepinator said:
I've said they don't have retention issues and they've paid out $1.9BN in internal royalties in the last 5 years, and will pay out another $500M+ in the coming year. So apparently people aren't feeling all that exploited.

It's gotten beyond embarrassing the lengths people will go to be angry about this. Being against crunch is one thing, but the vehement hate of Rockstar is positively laughable.

Crunch is bad. Rockstar does crunch, but their crunch isn't anywhere near as egregious as those posters are making it out to be - based on the evidence presented thus far. There's plenty of evidence that shows they're making strides to become a better workplace, yet some people refuse to listen or have decided to craft a narrative out of their imagination and preexisting bias to disprove that evidence. For every 10 positive experiences, they hear 1 negative from a decade ago and discard the others like it's a conspiracy. Or they immediately play the "whataboutism" card when their hypocrisy is called out effectively halting the discussion akin to plugging their ears - which is one of the worst things happening on this forum right next to "yikes" posts.

I've been watching these threads as the news has come in, and a lot of people have been able to think objectively and move on from the mob, but there's still a few people that just don't listen to any reason. On the opposite end of the spectrum, there's also some disgusting displays of clear corporate defense and a little bit of fanboying. Crunch is bad folks, and if any of the stories of unpaid OT are true, it's atrocious. Let's not immediately jump to "Rockstar is completely innocent in all this" from a few testimonials and hour sheets.

I reckon all of this falls somewhere in the middle, as most things do. I'm eagerly awaiting Schreirer's article, he does such excellent work on pieces like this. Developers need a union, but lets not act like Rockstar is the boogeyman solely responsible for this.

Muffin · Oct 19, 2018

Sheepinator said:
... a decade ago, that tweet said.

There are several examples in this thread of more recent ones.

Harp said:
I don't think you understand what a strawman is. If Rockstar has clarified and proven that working conditions aren't outrageous, then there's no strawman here- a strawman requires a side to argue in bad faith by making a situation appear weaker than it is, typically through manipulation with zero followup.

Rockstar clarified what they said, then they allowed employees to discuss it, which further proved the case, then they handed over timesheets, which further proved their case. The only strawman here is people saying that conjecture is damning evidence, whereas hard evidence to the contrary disproves that conjecture.

I'm also unclear on why the bad experiences of devs from half a decade plus ago outweigh the good experiences of devs employed now. This is also perplexing to me. You can't just brush the good experiences of devs working there now under the rug by saying they're lying or being held hostage. This is insane. People just want to be outraged over everything.

It's also mindblowing to me how much hypocrisy is brushed under the rug by decrying "whataboutism." If you're going to boycott Rockstar's games over perceived injustices, but keeping playing your PS4 made in a Chinese factory, then you're a fucking hypocrite, and no amount of accusing me of arguing in bad faith is going to change that. Enjoy your smartphone, too, and all of the indie games made by teams of twelve devs working 100+ hours a week with no overtime. Jesus christ.

I know exactly what a strawman is. The poster argued that all negatives experiences are taken as truth and the positives as lies. Almost nobody is arguing that shit.

And yes, whataboutism is fucking useless in the discussion, it's solely brought up to distract from this very real issue without any real concern for what is brought up. People can complain about things one thing at a time, thank you very much.

Same shit that's happening in Etcetera when celebrity X did thing Y to a woman, their fans come out and say "but this celebrity has done worse things, why not talk about them!!!" It's a shitty tactic.

Muffin · Oct 19, 2018

I have no problem with acknowledging that people at Rockstar also had positive experiences, or that it may have gotten better, I can't really judge that, I'm waiting for more in-depth articles on that.

What I do have a fucking problem with is people dismissing the devs coming out RIGHT now and telling their very real experiences about crunch, and trying to absolve Rockstar from any responsibility based on positive reports. "It's a narrative". "People are only believing the ex-employees". Get out of here with that shit.

digitalrelic · Oct 19, 2018

Meh, apologies for the comment. It served no purpose other than to instigate.

DukeBlue · Oct 19, 2018

digitalrelic said:
"We fight for the devs! Unless they say something that doesn't fit our narrative. Then they're filthy liars."

"We put words in peoples mouth because we like painting Era members are outrageous and ignore any arguments they try to make"

Am I doint it right?

S1lentSymph0ny · Oct 19, 2018

digitalrelic said:
"We fight for the devs! Unless they say something that doesn't fit our narrative. Then they're filthy liars."

"We eat up PR like its bacon and never second guess a corporation because they would never lie to us."

I can do lazy posts too.

Aviator Irelia · Oct 19, 2018

I can't believe we are this far into the thread and there are still people hand waving the employees accounts of the actual harsh crunch times. Y'all really want to play this game guilt free don't you? Carry on, people's lives and families go under the steam roller for your video game

digitalrelic · Oct 19, 2018

DukeBlue said:
"We put words in peoples mouth because we like painting Era members are outrageous and ignore any arguments they try to make"

Am I doint it right?

S1lentSymph0ny said:
"We eat up PR like its bacon and never second guess a corporation because they would never lie to us."

I can do lazy posts too.

Meh, apologies for the comment. It served no purpose other than to instigate.

Samara · Oct 19, 2018

I won't say what studio my husband works at but, this does not surprise me.

Keep in mind that his salary is fixed so they can't pay him overtime or something.
The higher up have a deadline and they just don't care. Work the extra hours or you're done.

I mean, cool you're working on a huge game, but a what cost?

S1lentSymph0ny · Oct 19, 2018

Samara said:
I won't say what studio my husband works at but, this does not surprise me.

Keep in mind that his salary is fixed so they can't pay him overtime or something.
The higher up have a deadline and they just don't care. Work the extra hours or you're done.

I mean, cool you're working on a huge game, but a what cost?

Yup this is what makes me question Rockstar's numbers. Where I work they could easily say salaried positions work only 40 hours a week because the actual hours worked are not reported for Salary positions. That would be a lie. Many people work closer to 50 or 60 hours.

Shadout · Oct 19, 2018

Everything still points toward the crunch bring real. People coming out, saying they don't work 100 hours is not exactly the same as unreasonable crunch not happening.
The leaders in Rockstar repeatedly hints at it being true in those interviews at Guardian etc.

But if anonymous interviews shows up at some point maybe the picture will be clearer.

eso76 · Oct 19, 2018

Bud23 said:

Lies !
But you enjoy your promotion, Mr. Olivier.

Everything still points toward the crunch bring real. People coming out, saying they don't work 100 hours is not exactly the same as unreasonable crunch not happening.
The leaders in Rockstar repeatedly hints at it being true in those interviews at Guardian etc.

But if anonymous interviews shows up at some point maybe the picture will be clearer.

Nothing besides the infamous 100hrs quote pointed towards an especially harsh crunch time.
The quote was clarified, which, considering it was the only real new piece of info we got, should have defused the discussion.
People will choose to believe what they want anyway

Deleted member 1635 · Oct 19, 2018

Harp said:
Oh look, an entire segment of the online gaming discussion community got outraged over fucking nothing. That never happens.

How was this not settled when they clarified that they were talking about the core team of writers, who all volunteered to work as much as they were, and the "100-hour" comment was a simple over exaggeration? Just outright refusal to believe that it was the case?

Because people want to believe that they are fighting for the good cause against the big bad Man.

Samara said:
I won't say what studio my husband works at but, this does not surprise me.

Keep in mind that his salary is fixed so they can't pay him overtime or something.
The higher up have a deadline and they just don't care. Work the extra hours or you're done.

I mean, cool you're working on a huge game, but a what cost?

That's what comes with an exempt salaried position. I mean, it's OK to not like it, but at least understand the expectations. Why did he take a salaried position?

Muffin · Oct 19, 2018

eso76 said:
Nothing besides the infamous 100hrs quote pointed towards an especially harsh crunch time.

See, this bullshit is what I mean. Outright ignoring countless examples in several threads.

SENPAIatLARGE · Oct 19, 2018

Waypoint jumped the gun

Nintendo · Oct 19, 2018

TraderPoe said:
She worked 80 hour weeks.

"a decade ago" Literally in the tweet you linked.

Here's a good response

But hey, ResetEra knows better than actual R* employees I guess.

Rockstar isn't the same company as they were 10 years ago. They used to release games every year during last gen. This isn't the case anymore. They turned to 1 game per generation.

Shadout · Oct 19, 2018

eso76 said:
especially harsh crunch time

Not being "especially harsh" still doesn't mean it is not bad.

DukeBlue · Oct 19, 2018

Zefah said:
That's what comes with an exempt salaried position. I mean, it's OK to not like it, but at least understand the expectations. Why did he take a salaried position?

Don't try and justify companies milking their employees of all their worth.

Do better.

Deleted member 1635 · Oct 19, 2018

DukeBlue said:
Don't try and justify companies milking their employees of all their worth.

Do better.

How would you propose people do better? Demand the higher pay and benefits afforded to salaried positions while also capping hours worked at 40? That sounds like a sweet deal.

beclause · Oct 19, 2018

Muffin said:
I have no problem with acknowledging that people at Rockstar also had positive experiences, or that it may have gotten better, I can't really judge that, I'm waiting for more in-depth articles on that.

What I do have a fucking problem with is people dismissing the devs coming out RIGHT now and telling their very real experiences about crunch, and trying to absolve Rockstar from any responsibility based on positive reports. "It's a narrative". "People are only believing the ex-employees". Get out of here with that shit.

I have no problem with acknowledging that people at Rockstar have negative experiences, or that it was worse in the past, I can't really judge that, I'm waiting for more in-depth articles on that.

What I do have a fucking problem with is people dismissing the devs coming out RIGHT now and telling their very real positive experiences about working at Rockstar, and trying to shame and demonize Rockstar based on negative reports. "They're forced to say it". "The HR put a gun to their head". Get out of here with that shit.

Muffin · Oct 19, 2018

beclause said:
I have no problem with acknowledging that people at Rockstar have negative experiences, or that it was worse in the past, I can't really judge that, I'm waiting for more in-depth articles on that.

What I do have a fucking problem with is people dismissing the devs coming out RIGHT now and telling their very real positive experiences about working at Rockstar, and trying to shame and demonize Rockstar based on negative reports. "They're forced to say it". "The HR put a gun to their head". Get out of here with that shit.

Yeah, you see, one of these is happening here more than the other, and one of these is a fuckton more important.

beclause · Oct 19, 2018

Muffin said:
Yeah, you see, one of these is happening here more than the other, and one of these is a fuckton more important.

I agree

Shadout · Oct 19, 2018

Zefah said:
How would you propose people do better? Demand the higher pay and benefits afforded to salaried positions while also capping hours worked at 40? That sounds like a sweet deal.

Unionize, demand (and vote) for better labor laws.
Salaried position and capped hours sounds very reasonable.

Got Danny · Oct 19, 2018

Sheepinator said:
People believed all the devs were being exploited. Then Rockstar clarified it was just Houser and a few others. People still believed what they wanted. Then Rockstar let people post publicly and they said it was fine. People still believed what they wanted. Then Rockstar released time sheets to the Guardian from all their employees. People still believed what they wanted.

Holy shit they shared time sheets? where can i see those? shouldn't that be all the proof ppl need?

Deleted member 1635 · Oct 19, 2018

Shadout said:
Unionize, demand (and vote) for better labor laws.
Salaried position and capped hours sounds very reasonable.

Cool, so what should an individual do who wants make money and support a family and also work on things they are passionate about?

funky · Oct 19, 2018

So any currently employed rockstar dev dumb enough to badmouth their employer on a public stage yet?

Muffin · Oct 19, 2018

Here's a goddamn list for all you disingenious posters saying it's been a decade ago and Rockstar has definitely changed:

https://twitter.com/redlamp/status/1051826119844880384
https://twitter.com/somebadideas/status/1051985753503350785
https://twitter.com/jobjstauffer/status/1052323687829884929
https://twitter.com/Jim936/status/1052166911486844930
https://twitter.com/TernsFawshack/status/1051788954327023616
https://twitter.com/christs_chins/status/1051786981376741377
https://twitter.com/roisiproven/status/1051874718859579398

https://gamerant.com/rockstar-crunch-culture/

"I called it a day with R* two years ago, and the same s*** was in play – GTA Online just meant endless crunch, one dlc into the next."

Ichi said:
listening to Kinda Funny podcast now. Apparently a R* dev known to the show emailed them saying he or she has never worked 100 hours but then went on to say that they worked from February to August, during the busiest they worked between 65 to 80 hours, 7 days a week. They also said others were worse, doing 80-100 hours each week for some time. The dev also said their OT was UNPAID, but they get a bonus come X'mas depending on tenure.

So, their crunch time ran for 7 months, so much for 3 weeks. Even if they did not work for 100 hours, let us not pretend like 80 is any better.

The dev went on to say that they were never forced to work OT, but only because it is illegal to do so. The workload is big and people are expected to complete in time, which means they have to do OT to get everything done otherwise they get pulled to the side and asked questions. Lastly, the dev said, "The whole team would have meetings where we were asked to push as hard as we could. We all knew what this meant."

Examples from RDR to RDR2 today. Not to mention all the examples from the other thread where the tweets aren't available anymore because the devs were scared of backlash. Stop saying you know for sure Rockstar has changed it practices, you don't know that.

Glassdoor is also full of stuff like this.

Shadout · Oct 19, 2018

Zefah said:
Cool, so what should an individual do who wants make money and support a family and also work on things they are passionate about?

Why would those desires be incompatible with each other?

Deleted member 1635 · Oct 19, 2018

Shadout said:
Why would those desires be incompatible with each other?

They don't have to be, but sometimes certain jobs require periods of working more than 40 hours a week. The nice part of being exempt is that you can do fewer than 40 in slower periods. It's all a balance, of course, and if you feel your company is exploiting you or treating your unfairly for the compensation, it would make sense to stop working there.

Deleted member 17207 · Oct 19, 2018

I'd put money on half the people getting mad about this are the same people who get mad when a game is delayed or isn't coming out for a while.

Shadout · Oct 19, 2018

I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to work more in some periods. That is of course needed in lots of jobs. I'm talking about a weekly average, like the previously talked about 48 hour average over 4 months in EU (no idea if anything like that exists in US). But 60-80 hours for long stretches of time should not be the standard anywhere.
In a perfect world employees would be able to handle that directly with their company, and sure, leave the job if unsatisfied. But that is not what happens in reality. Pressuring employees, who really need that wage next month, is much easier than the other way around.

eso76 · Oct 19, 2018

Muffin said:
See, this bullshit is what I mean. Outright ignoring countless examples in several threads.

I've only seen examples from people who worked there 8 years ago, nothing specifically related to RDR2
Yes, someone said they did 50+ hours for a couple weeks I think ?
They can do better, but I don't think that's outrageously bad.

Muffin · Oct 19, 2018

eso76 said:
I've only seen examples from people who worked there 8 years ago, nothing specifically related to RDR2
Yes, someone said they did 50+ hours for a couple weeks I think ?
They can do better, but I don't think that's outrageously bad.

I've linked a few more this very page, including more recent ones.

bbq of doom · Oct 19, 2018

eso76 · Oct 19, 2018

Muffin said:
I've linked a few more this very page, including more recent ones.

Yes, sorry i only saw your post after replying.
Ok, yeah it appears it was indeed rather shitty for some people. My bad it appears i only saw the "it's not that bad" tweets, not by choice though.
That's bad, I have nothing more to say.

Muffin · Oct 19, 2018

eso76 said:
Yes, sorry i only saw your post after replying.

No problem.

Samara · Oct 19, 2018

Zefah said:
Because people want to believe that they are fighting for the good cause against the big bad Man.

That's what comes with an exempt salaried position. I mean, it's OK to not like it, but at least understand the expectations. Why did he take a salaried position?

Working from 10 an hour to a fix 50 000~per year is the incentive. The testers can work like they want to. If not they get replaced. Since he's in charge of something, he can't. Or he'll just be demoted to a lower salary.

And I guess this is what happens when you got people who love the franchise and beg to be part of it. They'll do just about anything to be part of it.

Like I said, I guess he enjoys seeing his name in the credits and those tokens/trophy when they finish the game. I guess its the prestige to say "see that Big franchise? I did this".

dex3108 · Oct 19, 2018

R* Lincoln dev

The Rockstar Lincoln QA tester provides a dramatically different account. In their detailed post, they say that while they can only speak for the Lincoln studio (noting that among recent current employee accounts, Lincoln developers had been fairly quiet), their experience has been that "overtime is NOT optional, it is expected."

"If we are not able to work overtime on a certain day without a good reason, you have to make it up on another day," they said. "This usually means that if you want a full weekend off that you will have to work a double weekend to make up for it."

Finally, they note that while up to this point, such overtime has been mandatory, the recent controversy has had an effect on the company's policy going forward.

"To end this, overtime has changed for us now as of next week," they said. "We had a big meeting today where it was announced that all overtime going forward will be entirely optional, so if we want to work the extra hours and earn the extra money (As well as make yourself look better for progression) then we can do, but there is no longer a rule making us do it. This is huge for us here in Lincoln as many of us haven't been able to take full weekends without paying for it in a long time and it's a giant step forward in making crunch less of a hell to deal with."

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/artic...ester-overtime-is-not-optional-it-is-expected

Muffin · Oct 19, 2018

dex3108 said:
R* Lincoln dev

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/artic...ester-overtime-is-not-optional-it-is-expected

Good.

If this controversy even had only effect on a single studio, it was worth it.

Shadout · Oct 19, 2018

So it went from 'this sounds really bad' to, 'nothing to see here, please close your eyes' to 'even worse than anyone thought'. And then maybe some improvement (only "forced" instead of forced!) - until everyone forgets the story again?

Deleted member 1635 · Oct 19, 2018

We're not actually going to act like QA testers are "devs" are we? I don't mean this as a put down to people working hard in QA or anything, but let's be real here.

Heynongman! · Oct 19, 2018

Zefah said:
We're not actually going to act like QA testers are "devs" are we? I don't mean this as a put down to people working hard in QA or anything, but let's be real here.

Not sure this distinction matters given that Rockstar does QA in house.

If this story is true, it's truly horrific.

bbq of doom · Oct 19, 2018

Visibility brings results?

dex3108 · Oct 19, 2018

Rockstar grants permission to current devs to talk about company on social media

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