ok but why is the car such an important point? like where does that come from?
Rockstar employees were working "100 hour weeks" for RDR 2 [UPDATE: Rockstar's response]
- Thread starter Odesu
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It's interesting how this forum works. A comment by Dan Houser spawns a 25 page thread. A clarification by Dan Houser on the other hand is dismissed off-hand. Talk about digging yourself in.
I mean, if we had another equivalent of the "spouses of Rockstar Devs" letter again, that's one thing. But there is almost literally nothing concrete pointing towards the notion that they haven't improved since 2010, except for a few Glass Door reviews, but those are hardly what I would call concrete.
I mean, if we had another equivalent of the "spouses of Rockstar Devs" letter again, that's one thing. But there is almost literally nothing concrete pointing towards the notion that they haven't improved since 2010, except for a few Glass Door reviews, but those are hardly what I would call concrete.
i mean you can literally read what he thinks is "working hard"
i guess if you don't work overtime, you're not working hard!
i guess if you don't work overtime, you're not working hard!
there's also the bit about being "just as productive", because that's ultimately all that matters right
Well this is the dumbest thing posted in checks watch the last several hours at least.
I would like to hear from actual people working on this project to better understand the extent of the problem.
Was this constant? Occasional? Did they feel pressured if they didn't want to stay? Are they being well compensated after the fact?
As others have pointed out, this never came up with GTAV development.
I'm curious if things have improved since the RDR1 fiasco.
Was this constant? Occasional? Did they feel pressured if they didn't want to stay? Are they being well compensated after the fact?
As others have pointed out, this never came up with GTAV development.
I'm curious if things have improved since the RDR1 fiasco.
Rockstar REALLY emphasizing the "DEAD" in Red Dead Redemption.
I mean his reply directly implies that people who only wwork 40 hours aren't working hard.
The apology is bad in an off itself and is worthy criticsm.
I've had a job offer for a salaried position paying 46k, saying "6 10 hour days a week minimum," recently. If you do the math, that comes out to $12.64~ an hour. Oh, and they also want educated people with a work history.
Working conditions in the US are not excusable no matter how you look at it; the US needs some major regulation. Americans are taught to worship capitalism like it actually means something for anyone outside of the elite. It's an absolute joke. Trying to get a good paying job these days is exceptionally difficult for most, and the asks companies put out there are absurd. They act like you owe them, meanwhile you live your life for them and struggle to put a roof over your head.
A cool article I found that goes a little into how crunch might happen, and why it's such a staple in the software development industry as a whole.
Of course they are getting compensated whether that be bonuses or overtime pay
That's not unusual when working in a hospital in the US. It's usually a 7 on 7 off deal but still during those 7 on its a grind.
No it doesn't. That's what you infer from it. He also paints it as "additional effort".
And what apology are you talking about?
Well that's some unhealthy soul/family/life crushing stuff for sure
Can't even imagine what that'd be like
Can't even imagine what that'd be like
Not supporting the game will effect these workers directly and they will lose their jobs. Luckily this is RDR2 and it will make a shit ton of money.
That's because people can die. As far as professions that can justfy their extreme work others game developers are near the bottom.
Who the fuck is going into the game industry, of all professions, to get a MERCEDES?????
If I know the game was created under these conditions then I will absolutely not purchase it. I hope it's not the majority of AAA games.
Yes, that is what that means in plain English.
"We're not saying you have to, but we're just saying that you know...it has to get done...you know...not saying you should stay til 8PM tonight but...just saying that well, your deadline is at 8AM tomorrow morning and well...I mean..."
This is the biggest passive aggressive cliche in the playbook of salaried employment.
So are you saying it's OK to put people through a so called unfair and grueling work week when people's lives are on the line but not when working on a game? If a surgeon can operate under those conditions surely someone can code.
Even so, there's no excuse. The reality is that even in the hospital, there should be more people on the payroll. If you have two people working 100 hour weeks regularly, that tells me there should be three more people on the payroll. Make the third a temp if you must.
It's actually cheaper to pay more people a normal wage than pay less people insane amounts of overtime. Literally everyone wins. You get your work life balance, the company pays out less, cost goes down for patients... if the company wants to pay it forward, which we all know they won't, more jobs, and even new workers can get some experience. Triple win.
I get pretty emotional thinking about the toll crunch has had on my family during my time in the industry. It all crystallized last year when, after my first time ever getting drunk at the Agents of Mayhem launch party, when I got home and my teenage son was making sure I didn't fall and injure myself on the way to the bathroom, I just started word vomiting about how sorry I was that I wasn't always there for important parts of his life and how much I appreciated him being home to pick up the slack sometimes when I couldn't be there. There are many moments I don't remember from that night...that one has perfect clarity for one very horrible, terrible reason. He laughed it off and said it was OK. I realized I'd inadvertently groomed my child, who also wants to get into the industry, to believe that this was normal.
Game creation is the king of unknown unknowns. Something you think is going to be easy to implement isn't. A feature that sounds good on paper just isn't working or resonating. An outsourcer fell through and you're scrambling to make assets internally. Any number of things can go wrong. When they do, there are options. Crunching is one of those options. Sometimes it is, unfortunately, the only option. But I refuse to work anywhere that doesn't manage their crunch well or tries to sell crunch as "passion" because I've been at this for well over a decade and I don't buy that shit at all anymore.
Game creation is the king of unknown unknowns. Something you think is going to be easy to implement isn't. A feature that sounds good on paper just isn't working or resonating. An outsourcer fell through and you're scrambling to make assets internally. Any number of things can go wrong. When they do, there are options. Crunching is one of those options. Sometimes it is, unfortunately, the only option. But I refuse to work anywhere that doesn't manage their crunch well or tries to sell crunch as "passion" because I've been at this for well over a decade and I don't buy that shit at all anymore.
Some of these workers may loose their jobs right after the game ships. I sympathize with those workers but let's not shift the blame to consumers because a developer will hire too many staff/work them too hard/ and then fire them when sales don't meet expectations. That's not a result of consumers choices, those are all management decisions.
Yes that's exactly what I'm implying. If people can die if your not there it's less bad for an employer to encourage to work long hours than a random leisure activity.
Absolutely because I know developers in the video game industry and software industries I've been right next to them during crunch time whilst we all work those hours. Seems people think it's just developers but the sales and marketing teams will be working the same amount of hours. And at the end every single one got paid bonuses sales people and developers.
Then I have seen teachers, lawyers, architects, etc all work crazy hours and get compensated for it.
There's literally people's lives depending on hospital workers.
No one's gonna die if RDR2 is delayed a few more months.
I would argue that when you knowingly contribute to products that are made under poor working conditions you are playing an active roll in allowing that behavior to continue. I don't know if just voicing out will overshadow the company's profits.
Point being working 100 hour weeks is not something that is absolutely unheard of. How can someone make the argument that working a 100 hour week during crunch is just cruel and unhealthy when other people are literally doing that for a career and get by just fine.
I assume that the clarification from the Kotaku article was posted that the entire team wasn't asked to work 100 hours but it was just a group of senior writers.
the point is its just fucking video games man, you don't have to work 100 weeks for god damn video games
Very common in hospitals here in the US. My lady works around 13 hours at minimum. She gets 4 days off luckily, but if shits going down in the city, expect it to be back to back. I have a friend who just got called due to hurricane that just went through Florida. She'll be working 5-6 days a week, 15 hour days for the next 4 months.
On topic: Crunch time sucks, I haven't done it in a programming environment, but I've done it in hospitality (7am-11pm shifts, 5 or 6 days a week) and its not fun. Yeah money is great and all, but it takes a toll on you.
I don't understand why anyone is acting surprised here. Rockstar's poor record in regards to crunch and treatment of some of its employees is on public record and seems to swing around every time they have a major release.
I think the problem is that ethical capitalism is not tenable in the system we've created. Transparency between companies and consumers are purposely obfuscated - through middlemen, warehouses, outsourcing, etc. - for several reasons. One - it lowers development time for any product. Two - it creates an illusion of plausible deniability. There are so many things to consider when buying products, from the environmental costs, to the moral codes of those responsible for making the products, to the working conditions enforced or suggested by management. It's why you can pick your battle, but you'll always lose. The smartphone in your pocket suggests as much.
I think education, such as exposes that Kotaku runs or other journalist outlets in this industry, can lead to public outcry, which is the best we can hope for in these situations. If a company feels threatened on a large scale, that can lead to reform. One lost sale, while it may make you feel better, will not in any way change the system.
I think the problem is that ethical capitalism is not tenable in the system we've created. Transparency between companies and consumers are purposely obfuscated - through middlemen, warehouses, outsourcing, etc. - for several reasons. One - it lowers development time for any product. Two - it creates an illusion of plausible deniability. There are so many things to consider when buying products, from the environmental costs, to the moral codes of those responsible for making the products, to the working conditions enforced or suggested by management. It's why you can pick your battle, but you'll always lose. The smartphone in your pocket suggests as much.
I think education, such as exposes that Kotaku runs or other journalist outlets in this industry, can lead to public outcry, which is the best we can hope for in these situations. If a company feels threatened on a large scale, that can lead to reform. One lost sale, while it may make you feel better, will not in any way change the system.
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We know the business set culture via the tone at the top. If manager in other department know that one team is working 100 hr weeks it could easily spread through the company, to the point where workers feel like they "need to be there" because that is just how it's done.
There were reports of this for GTAIV, GTAV, and even Red Dead.
Yet people still decide they want to work there.
I guess it must be great to have on the resume, and they probably think the pros outweigh the cons.
Yet people still decide they want to work there.
I guess it must be great to have on the resume, and they probably think the pros outweigh the cons.
For real, especially if you are a programmer you can get easier jobs that pay more, people aren't getting into videogames for the money...
This is in my area of the law and where I practice. Game developers are almost always exempt from the Labor Code provisions due to the way CA law is written.
Houser responds to the 100 hour work week comment backlash.
https://variety.com/2018/gaming/news/rockstar-100-hour-work-week-1202980474/
https://variety.com/2018/gaming/news/rockstar-100-hour-work-week-1202980474/
You don't have to but it's not a big deal if it's required during crunch. Other people do it for a living so they will be fine. Don't worry.
Every time there are threads on this site about inhuman working conditions for games, I am still stunned at people who think that developers who are actually building the games they play make any amount of money. With the exception of the people who have ownership stake in the studio or leads of department, you're not making a lot of money. And even then, most of those people could make significantly more in another industry. Stop justifying how much you want a game by saying developers deserve this treatment.
As far as solutions, yeah, not buying a game only ensures that those developers who were already tolerating miserable conditions out of some combination of love of the craft and fear of being able to make ends meet/sunk cost fallacy end up far worse off. The people who hoover up all of the profits off of the labor are almost never affected.
As far as solutions, yeah, not buying a game only ensures that those developers who were already tolerating miserable conditions out of some combination of love of the craft and fear of being able to make ends meet/sunk cost fallacy end up far worse off. The people who hoover up all of the profits off of the labor are almost never affected.
Spoiler: It is. Your favorite game dev is going to be pulling absolutely insane hours in the run up to launch. I guarantee you by the time January rolls around, Bioware will be pulling 80-100 hours getting Anthem ready, or that CDPR (which whose crunch periods are well documented) is going to be doing the same before the launch of Cyberpunk. Fallout 77 is out in a month, and from I've seen, it's not ready, and they aren't going to delay it.
yup, because one thing is bad the other thing can't possibly be also bad