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Tart Toter 9K

Member
Oct 25, 2017
397
I get that but then theres games like mine craft and wow that sell or did sell shit tons and still played by millions now. Not everything aaa has to be top tier graphics defying game etc
I think those games you mentioned are exactly why some developers choose to focus on top tier graphics. They know they can't compete in gameplay and fun so they have to find some other way to differentiate themselves from all the great games that are coming out.
They are also slowly changing what it means to be "AAA" and making it more expensive, thus excluding studios that have less money from calling themselves "AAA".
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,957
Germany
What I find even more insane is how some people take these working hours as a badge of honor or a great sign of companionship among fellow co-workers.
I remember a Naughty Dog guy saying how proud he is to work there and have co-workers who care so much about the game and project that they stay up until 3 in the morning to debug a tool, so he himself could start working with the tool that morning again.

There are jobs out there - ambulance, firefighter, disaster crew, soldier - where in times of crisis, this behavior completely makes sense, but we're talking about making fucking video games here. What is wrong with these people.
When the developer you're working for has trouble to survive and is lead by good people and it's only a few weeks a year, sure, but for mega developers/publishers??
 

Oudone79

Banned
Jun 21, 2018
114
No, they weren't working 100 hours a week for the whole year, but they have been working overtime for a very very long time. Rockstar San Diego is kind of infamous for this, and you can see it in testimonials like this one as well as in reviews like on Glassdoor. I personally know someone who works there, and he has been working overtime there constantly for close to 2 years now. He was working 11 - 12 hour days pretty regularly that entire time as well. That just shouldn't be accepted as the norm at any place of work.
Didn't he get a big bonus? Don't the have a 1 month pay vacation to rest ?
 

Observable

Member
Oct 27, 2017
946
I have had periods of multiple months where I had to work 12-14 hours a day for six days a week and it really has an effect on your mental state. Especially when at the end of the period hours increased to about 90-100 hours it just drains your personality of energy and ability to relax.

Never had a burnout luckily, but I think that's only because I made sure I took a long break between these projects. If you'd lose your job after working these hours I can only imagine what it does to someone.

It just never should the standard at a workplace or something that gets bragged about.
 

Doc Holliday

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,820
I've know some people who were walked off interviews as soon as they said they couldn't do excessive ot because of family :/

The whole philosophy at Rockstar is that all their games have been hits, why change?

Everyone in the industry knows this is how Rockstar rolls. It's sad because they should be able to make a game without crunching for long periods of time considering how much money they have.
 

dstarMDA

Member
Dec 22, 2017
4,304
Disclaimer: I have shipped multiple games, including a console AAA this very year, but have never done 100hrs+ weeks as it would seem quite illegal around here (France).

I'd only like to state that we're not talking about third-world / poor & desperate people being exploited by some global capitalism entity here. Rockstar devs work there by choice, and could branch out of video games any time, as their resumes and education offer them many other opportunities in life.
They're (we're) not, for the vast majority, underprivileged individuals. Studios and employers bet on this job being a "passion job", and a lot of young talents fall for this kind of bs, but devs are still responsible for their choices.

Only solution is unionization, to systemically prevent newcomers from accepting absurd work conditions, but I've also seen way too many devs (the few seniors that did not flee and juniors) being corporate apologists and refusing to stand for their rights. They must be confronted to their responsabilities, because change won't come from a tiny R* game boycott, and even less probably from a sudden corporate social awakening.
 
Oct 31, 2017
9,636
Yeah, that's pretty fucking terrible and it's probably bad like this all over. I say that as someone who went to school to learn the things necessary to get into this business. My primary instructor was a former Marine, and one of the main things that he tries to drill into people, beyond just the techniques to create modern 3D game artwork, was that in order to be in this industry, you have to work insane hours. This was true even in college. One of the main reasons being is that it's cutthroat and everyone wants to do it. So in order to succeed, you really have to put a ton of time in. Every part of creating content for 3D graphics is very time consuming, especially if you want those various, disparate components to be of high quality, which Rockstar of course does.

College taught me that the game biz was not for me as I didn't have the work ethic and desire to have my job define my entire life, and it didn't help that I was an awful procrastinator who wasn't very good with time management. For a little perspective, for one animation project, I stayed awake over 3 days straight in order to see its completion through, mainly because I so badly misjudged my time situation and the time necessary. A lot of people also misjudged this too, it's pretty much inevitable with a lot of those things for a lot of people. In order to be good, you have to seriously dedicate time consistently.

And talking as someone who worked in a car part manufacturing plant that worked every day with 12 hour shifts for awhile, working 100 hour weeks would be godawful. The industry really does need to figure this stuff out.
 

Fularu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,609
This game bombing would do worse for those eomployees you claim to care about than otherwise. As bad as Rockstar treated them the way Telltale treated their employees was worse.
No

Don't reward shit practices with your money, otherwise the shit practices will stay.

Not buying the game is the best thing one can do to put pressure on those studios to change their management policies.
 

dimasok

Banned
Sep 9, 2018
567
What I find even more insane is how some people take these working hours as a badge of honor or a great sign of companionship among fellow co-workers.
I remember a Naughty Dog guy saying how proud he is to work there and have co-workers who care so much about the game and project that they stay up until 3 in the morning to debug a tool, so he himself could start working with the tool that morning again.

There are jobs out there - ambulance, firefighter, disaster crew, soldier - where in times of crisis, this behavior completely makes sense, but we're talking about making fucking video games here. What is wrong with these people.
When the developer you're working for has trouble to survive and is lead by good people and it's only a few weeks a year, sure, but for mega developers/publishers??

I agree in principle but making video games is survival too. You are putting food on the table.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,250
Spain
I've worked 100 hrs/ week before and while its not great, i can see why people have to resort to that.
You might think the solution is better project planning to avoid unecessary work but there is just no such thing as a perfect planning, new information transpires as a project goes on, ideas that thought to be brilliant at the start would ìbe scraped once it was tested and turned out hard to implement/ full of flaws etc.

Actually, what industry are you guys in? I would actually like to be in one where 50 hrs is considered excessive. Am not being facetious btw, genuinely wanted to know (i was previously in finance and now work in a startup)

Project management is a complex thing and not something that easy to improve as many people think, I give you that. But it's possible to improve it and all companies should focus on doing it. I agree that shit happens and sometimes crunch is unavoidable and impossible to foresee. But I know of some companies that include on their planning for a project that people will be working overtime and weekends without getting paid (they usually get vacation but no money) and that's just unacceptable. Cheaping out resources (that's how they refer to people) to increase the project profitability it's not cool by any means.
 

test_account

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,645
"Voluntary" is more often than not, not actually voluntary
That might be the case in some cases. I just wanted to say that if you're on salary, you cant be demanded to work extra without getting payed unless the work is voluntary. I also feel that its very unlikely that these developers who are on salary doesnt get payed extra for their extra work.



Look up the tweets from the former R* dev on this very page
Thanks. I wish there was more detailed information around it than just those two sentences, and one also mention "probably". Bad work practice needs to be highlighted more, thats why i want more information about it.
 
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Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
The only really relevant questions are: where they paid adequately? Did they have a choice in opting-in or was the extra time forced on them?
 

ObbyDent

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,910
Los Angeles
Ah, so that's how the dissonance is rationalized.

"Buy the game, it's too late!"

No

Don't reward shit practices with your money, otherwise the shit practices will stay.

Not buying the game is the best thing one can do to put pressure on those studios to change their management policies.

If RD2 bombed do you honestly, TRULY believe that Rockstar/T2 would go "huh, maybe crunch IS bad" and not just lay off employees or not give bonuses?

Like what kind of fucking utopian world do you live in?

These people need to unionize or leave the industry to a better one for their skillswt in Mass waves or nothing. NOTHING. Is going to change.
 

Zeb

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
303
Well that is obviously shitty if the pay-off doesn't increase for them.

I heard that if you work for Activision on COD you will get a fat bonus at the end of the year (at least it used to be a few years ago). But in games industry getting bonuses aren't that common. In my experience it happens if a company wants to retain its staff. Rockstar works more like a revolving door.
 

dimasok

Banned
Sep 9, 2018
567
No

Don't reward shit practices with your money, otherwise the shit practices will stay.

Not buying the game is the best thing one can do to put pressure on those studios to change their management policies.

No its not. You are wasting their toil. Its equivalent to saying pirate it or wait till it goes on sale. Voting with your wallet will only show RX that you dont want more RDR and not that you are against the crunch.
 

Velezcora

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 16, 2017
3,124
On average a human adult needs at least 8 hours of sleep a day.
100 hour week leaves you with only 9 hours a day if you work all week. That's not enough to get home, eat dinner and get to bed and get 8 hours.
This should be practically illegal. Quality of life should never have to suffer for the sake of capitalism.
 

HylianSeven

Shin Megami TC - Community Resetter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,147
Over 7 days that's 14 hours per day, which isn't too insane.

How much are their salaries? Do they get overtime during crunch? A nice bonus when the game inevitably gets 99 on MC? Good holidays during normal workload times?

You can't really judge what this means without any of that info.
If they start working at 8am each day, they would be working until 10pm... Fuck. That. There is zero defense for that. I don't care if the game ends up a 100 on Metacritic somehow. It's still not worth damaging your employees.
 

el_skywalker

Member
Feb 8, 2018
133
Brazil
I play games to escape the disgrace that reality is, and sometimes forget that they are actually made in this disgraceful reality.

Disgusted, to say the least.
 

Skittzo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,037
This sounds like the type of hours people at major Wall Street firms work, except they get to retire at like 35 and make way more money. And they choose that life.

I really can't imagine working in these kind of conditions, I would probably lose my mind after 2 weeks like this. It's a shame the industry enables this.
 

Fularu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,609
If RD2 bombed do you honestly, TRULY believe that Rockstar/T2 would go "huh, maybe crunch IS bad" and not just lay off employees or not give bonuses?

Like what kind of fucking utopian world do you live in?

These people need to unionize or leave the industry to a better one for their skillswt in Mass waves or nothing. NOTHING. Is going to change.
Management would be the first victim if such a large project bombs because most of that team is getting laid off no matter what once the game ships
 

Deleted member 3058

User requested account closure
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,728
I've worked 16-18 hours for days at a time sometimes to hit deadlines.

It's not nice but the pay is fucking good and that makes up for it at the end of the day.

That's why I'm saying without knowing what their pay is, and the working conditions usually, 100 hours doesn't mean much.

Working like that bought me my house.
Well, it seems to have deprived you of all empathy.
 

PMS341

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt-account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,634
Crunch is a mistake. It literally shouldn't even exist. It appeases very few except those at the top who benefit from the game's profits.
 

giapel

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,610
On average a human adult needs at least 8 hours of sleep a day.
100 hour week leaves you with only 9 hours a day if you work all week. That's not enough to get home, eat dinner and get to bed and get 8 hours.
This should be practically illegal. Quality of life should never have to suffer for the sake of capitalism.
Not practically illegal. It is illegal in a lot of countries.
I'm not sure why we're debating the fact that this is a choice for these employees. It is the duty of the employer to make sure their employees are safe. They shouldn't allow them to work that long even if they want to. And yes, even contractors.
 

AtmaPhoenix

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,002
The Internet
This thread is depressing. Nobody should have to work 100 hour weeks. It doesn't matter if they're compensated or get bonuses or not. Time is the most precious commodity and working on a video game is not important enough to have 100 hour weeks.

I just don't understand people who work for companies that push for 70, 80, 90, 100 hour work weeks in any industry. People should be able to have a living wage based on 40 hours a week or less. Nobody should be working twice as long just do a CEO can maximize profits. Crunch is awful, unpaid labor is awful.