Can't speak for Riot Games, but "nobody tweaks the game design based on game analytics" is just what.
My evidence is that I worked there and had no access to business KPIs.
Also, tell me how it's remotely smart to balancing an unpopular champion to sell an item instead of just selling more items for popular champions, lol.
Can't speak for Riot Games, but "nobody tweaks the game design based on game analytics" is just what.
Fair enough on the personal experience thing, though I would argue pick/ban rates actually do not fluctuate a lot. Some heroes will always be safe picks by a big part of the community, be either due to its kit (take Pudge, for example) or because of its flair/power levels that can be achieved by high levels of play (think Invoker, Anti-mage, Terrorblade).I don't think personal experience is a good perspective for this. Fact is, pick/ban rates fluctuate a ton over time outside of a few outliers.
Fair enough on the personal experience thing, though I would argue pick/ban rates actually do not fluctuate a lot. Some heroes will always be safe picks by a big part of the community, be either due to its kit (take Pudge, for example) or because of its flair/power levels that can be achieved by high levels of play (think Invoker, Anti-mage, Terrorblade).
"Just tweak the numbers" is about the dumbest thing I've read with regards to balance design in eons. A competitive game with millions of players and the world's biggest esports franchise is gonna "tweak the numbers" to sell some extra cheevos eh?Great, and you were the only employee so every employee had your exact experience. Also, you would have no reason to be dishonest about this and I should take your word as 100% evidence even though we've never met.
Because you don't have to MAKE the content. Instead of having to design, code, and release a new skin you just tweak some numbers. All the content is already in place this way across the board. I have already addressed this.
"Just tweak the numbers" is about the dumbest thing I've read with regards to balance design in eons. A competitive game with millions of players and the world's biggest esports franchise is gonna "tweak the numbers" to sell some extra cheevos eh?
As I said in my previous reply, it's clear you made up your mind already and aren't receptive to any input.
I know, though I believe one thing translates to another quite comfortably, considering how similar they are. Anyways, my point is that this is nothing new and I don't see this changing their design decisions any more than they already are by the desire to sell other cosmetics.I should be more clear, I'm talking about in League of Legends because of the thread, I have no Dota experience.
You vastly underestimate the amount of work needed to rebalance heroes, or really - how game development works in general.Great, and you were the only employee so every employee had your exact experience. Also, you would have no reason to be dishonest about this and I should take your word as 100% evidence even though we've never met.
Because you don't have to MAKE the content. Instead of having to design, code, and release a new skin you just tweak some numbers. All the content is already in place this way across the board. I have already addressed this.
I know, though I believe one thing translates to another quite comfortably, considering how similar they are. Anyways, my point is that this is nothing new and I don't see this changing their design decisions any more than they already are by the desire to sell other cosmetics.
Riot has been called out repeatedly by investors for refusing to maximize its revenue in the past.Wish I could be that optimistic, but I'm just not. I think any way they can increase revenue, they will.
Riot has been called out repeatedly by investors for refusing to maximize its revenue in the past.
You vastly underestimate the amount of work needed to rebalance heroes, or really - how game development works in general.
You're not gonna change the entire balance of your game with millions of daily active users because you want to sell a few extra 7$ packs...
No one does this. Designers at Riot don't have access to business KPIs.
Having money is better than being good at computer games
Guess they are.
It's still by any measure far easier to adjust a champion's strength than design/code a new skin
They are two entirely different, incomparable lines of work to be honest.
You pay for the achievements to be enabled, then you have to unlock them and you get a cosmetic reward.
Technically speaking, by definition of the word, Rhinos count as unicorns, lol.
Where did I say they were the same? I'm saying, one requires less effort than the other if you are only focused on making certain champions stronger and not the health of your meta.
Actually, not necessarily. I'm not sure what Riot's pipeline is - But I'd imagine they have a lot more artists and developers than designers. And I'm guessing each hero rebalance has to be thoroughly tested etc. And then there's community reaction to think about...It's still by any measure far easier to adjust a champion's strength than design/code a new skin
They require different kinds of effort, and ideally you tweak balance for the health of the meta, if you're just buffing heroes on a whim, that's not doing a good job with balance and you might as well not be doing anything, in that case yeah it's "easier" but that's also doing a shitty job in the first place.
Actually, not necessarily. I'm not sure what Riot's pipeline is - But I'd imagine they have a lot more artists and developers than designers. And I'm guessing each hero rebalance has to be thoroughly tested etc. And then there's community reaction to think about...
I'd bet it'll be faarrr easier for them to produce a cosmetic skin.
Your direct [albeit anecdotal] experience pales in comparison to baseless guesses and wild accusations!"Just tweak the numbers" is about the dumbest thing I've read with regards to balance design in eons. A competitive game with millions of players and the world's biggest esports franchise is gonna "tweak the numbers" to sell some extra cheevos eh?
As I said in my previous reply, it's clear you made up your mind already and aren't receptive to any input.
I've been playing lol for... mmmm... no idea really considering I've started in season 2. In all these years I've never spent a single €. They can keep doing whatever they want with cosmetics and other ideas that are not mandatory and I don't see any scandal
Your direct [albeit anecdotal] experience pales in comparison to baseless guesses and wild accusations!
I don't understand what is getting lost in the conversation here. We're talking about the hypothetical temptation to throw things like intense balance testing out the window in order to sell more of these packs
Maybe it's because we realize no one will ever risk ruining a game with millions of DAU that is played on a professional level and is dependent on its balancing to work - by throwing balancing out the window just to sell some achievement thing?I don't understand what is getting lost in the conversation here. We're talking about the hypothetical temptation to throw things like intense balance testing out the window in order to sell more of these packs
Maybe it's because we realize no one will ever risk ruining a game with millions of DAU that is played on a professional level and is dependent on its balancing to work - by throwing balancing out the window just to sell some achievement thing?
But that doesn't make any sense. Surely you would spend that dev time on the most popular champs at the moment instead of buffing less popular devs to hope people buy that content.
But that doesn't make any sense. Surely you would spend that dev time on the most popular champs at the moment instead of buffing less popular devs to hope people buy that content.
I mean, I don't get the disgust? It's just achievements for bragging rights. How is it different than buying cosmetic shit?
Pretty much. It's probably the same kind of people who bought or rented easy gamerscore/easy achievement games like Avatar The Last Airbender for the Xbox 360 for the sole reason of boosting their gamer points.Imagine being so invested in fake gamer points that you'd pay for them.
People have been doing this for years, ever since the dawn of the system. Avatar, Barbie games, etc.Imagine being so invested in fake gamer points that you'd pay for them.
I don't think I misframed you argument?If that's your stance, totally fine. We can agree to disagree without completely misframing each other's arguments.
But they're both equally cosmetic. You can just ignore both without having your game impacted in any way.You primarily buy a skin for yourself, as you have to look at it the most, but other people can enjoy the way it looks as well. I'm sure there are people who buy them just to flex, but a different costume can change/enhance the feel of a character. Not only is there already a system in place to show mastery of a champion, this just puts a shell on top of that with the sole purpose of flexing.
To be honest, it's just lame. Like someone mentioned elsewhere, even letting someone with the mastery use a character's base splash as an icon would be better than this.
I don't think I misframed you argument?
Look, I get mistrusting companies like Riot, but at the end of the day, they thing they care about most is their game's health - They can't create new weird monetization plans without it, now can they? There's no reason to imply people at Riot would actively work to make their game worse.
But they're both equally cosmetic. You can just ignore both without having your game impacted in any way.
Yeah exactly. Not worth getting worked up over, let alone slinging shit at Riot.People have been doing this for years, ever since the dawn of the system. Avatar, Barbie games, etc.
This whole system seems stupid, but harmless. It's not gambling. It's not P2W. It's some dumb icons and a way to flex on people that you spent money. Shrug.
Heya - actual Riot employee here.
Game & system designers, as well as most people in the company, don't even have permissions (let alone have a need) to view this kind of data. If anything, the separation between revenue-generating stuff & core systems stuff (aka balance, champ design, matchmaking, things of that ilk) are kept intentionally separate because of fears of this, but also because it doesn't improve the design/product quality of things they work on.
In my four years here, I think the only thing that's close to "they make balance or game system changes for $" is the idea about not making cosmetics or big system changes for champions that are up for some type of rework in the near future, which is mostly due to how that would feel as a player, than revenue reasons. Even in that scenario, a champ rework team isn't being held accountable to champs or skins sold, because sales != satisfaction. It's also pretty shortsighted shitty business to chase profit over game balance, so even the revenue people don't want them to care about that.
As for Eternals, I don't work on that feature so I can't really speak to the why and how, but can say that the team in charge of it (the publishers, the designers, the bean counters, and leaders) are paying attention to all the feedback players are saying about the system, including threads like this. It might not be the most satisfying answer, but it is the truth, and the teams involved with it are talking about what's being talked about.
Yeah exactly. Not worth getting worked up over, let alone slinging shit at Riot.