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Zoe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,274
They won't be going to shittier schools. They're still in the UWS, one of the richest school districts in NYC. This is false dllemma that people keep bringing up. Many of these parents want to absolutely maximize their kids potential and that's noble. But they will still have access to top schools in that area. None of these kids will be going to underperforming inner city schools.
Source? Neither of the OP articles say where the disadvantaged students are coming from or where the displaced students are going. If the former are coming from the outside but the latter are staying within, isn't that going to create huge crowding issues?
 
Oct 29, 2017
282
There's gonna be discipline problems in any school though. It's just that schools that have limited resources and cram 30 kids into 1 classroom to a single teacher are way worse at dealing with it and the problem inherently amplifies itself in those conditions.

Also I don't get how you say OP should be more responsible with the thread title. Like what do you take issue with. The rest of your post is talking about discipline issues (and irresponsibly generalizing all kids from poor schools as classroom disturbers in the processs) and nothing to do with why OPs thread title colors the issue wrong.


Rich white parents enraged at diversity, lol if thats not to draw a reaction i dont know what is.
Maybe you and OP should go work for the Dailymail or something or some other tabloid
discipline problems happen more in schools that are poor performing. I know its generalizing, there are well behaved kids in all schools but issues at home translate to issues at school, its the truth and it always will be an issue that needs to be addressed when educating kids from disadvantaged areas.
Its not merely just about resources and teachers are increasingly expected to do more than just 'teach'
 

Vanillalite

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,709
Also per that NY Times article that keeps getting posted.

Getting Najya into one of the disproportionately white schools in the city felt like accepting the inevitability of this two-tiered system: one set of schools with excellent resources for white kids and some black and Latino middle-class kids, a second set of underresourced schools for the rest of the city's black and Latino kids.

If it's not based on individual hyper local property taxes as some have said and instead it's a general fund for all of NYC then why is there a dispairity in resources?

Local NYC resources would be the same for all schools across the board from this general education fund?
 

Deleted member 6230

User-requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
6,118
Rich white parents enraged at diversity, lol if thats not to draw a reaction i dont know what is.
Maybe you and OP should go work for the Dailymail or something or some other tabloid
discipline problems happen more in schools that are poor performing. I know its generalizing, there are well behaved kids in all schools but issues at home translate to issues at school, its the truth and it always will be an issue that needs to be addressed when educating kids from disadvantaged areas.
Its not merely just about resources and teachers are increasingly expected to do more than just 'teach'
Yeah, I'm not going to further this discussion with that insult you threw in there. Have a good one.
 

Deleted member 6230

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Oct 25, 2017
6,118

PanickyFool

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,947
Clearly none of you here have kids or are into education.

What I understood from the video is that some cof their kids will have to go-to shittier schools to make room for these kids who have shitty grades. If I was these parents I'd be pissed off as well.
I have a white child who is in NYC middle school.
This is one of the small fixes that needs to be made to fix institutional racism imposed across multiple generations.
We need Samantha Bee to tackle this issue!

Sarcasm? Her husband as recently as two(?) years ago was on the racist side in a redistricting dispute.
 
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Powdered Egg

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
17,070
But you're still generalizing. I bet these parents would still be in an uproar if these below average kids were all-white. I think these selfish folks simply don't want attention taken away from their kids and their chances at life.
Those parents are still idiots mind you.
They absolutely would not be upset if groups of underperforming white kids were at the school.
 

TheRuralJuror

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,504

Deleted member 19003

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,809
I'm a product of NYC public school system, homeboy. I'm a product one of those scary inner city schools people are making rhetoric about. I don't have children but I have a 8 year old nephew who I pick up from school help with homework and read to. Fallback. Secondly your take is way off the mark for reasons Entretment already explained. I suggest you read the thread and try to educate yourself on this issue. Here's an article to get you started:http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/06/1...s_latest_school_integration_battleground.html

Wow.
That was a really great article, thanks for linking. Eye opening to see that segregating by race in the 40's and 50's has just been replaced by segregating by income, thus achieving the same disadvantaged outcome for minorities. Very sad. Even with the same funding district-wide for all schools, children in low-income and crime ridden neighborhoods are at a big disadvantage by not being allowed to integrate with more affluent students, and vice versa. Those affluent (white and asian kids, mostly), then also suffer by reinforcing those stereotypes and avoiding integrated schools for their own children. Systematic racism in full effect, even in so-called Northern enlightened liberal strongholds. This stuff is really heart breaking.
 
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Deleted member 16609

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,828
Harlem, NYC
I'm in this area. Where a lot of the staffers or former alumni from Columbia University live at. The UWS is an interesting area in NYC. Where you have these amazing condos and brownstones.

Restaurants and Bars all over Amsterdam and Broadway. But once you hit Columbus and Manhattan Ave is a whole different level. It is full with NYCHA and halfway houses. Not only that, is an avenue before Central Park West. Very wealthy just like West End Avenue. So these parents are not okay with kids who live in the projects going to the same school as their kids. Majority of these middle schools are in the main avenues, Amsterdam. I.S. 54 for years had a program called Delta.

Which from what I remember was in the last floor. Where all the "bright" kids went. Majority of the kids were white while the rest of the school is Black, Latino and Asian. The kids that attended said program got out early as well. There are many programs like that around the area. I remember PS 165 did something similar a decade ago.
 

FireFistAce

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
692
Well, the school academic level will drop if students with lower than average grade.

Also, what does that have to do with diversity? Are they taking race into consideration when reserving those seats?
 

Mercurial

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
985
There's plenty wrong with the way school districts are funded but don't call parents racists because they're upset that their kids may be bounced from a district arbitrarily. There isn't a decent house near a good school district that isn't advertising the school district as part of the package. There are people shopping for houses whose #1 consideration is the school district that neighborhood will belong to.

It may not be important to you but school districts are important to plenty of homeowners and home buyers out there and this initiative is a big enough 'fuck you' that outrage towards the implementation is more than warranted. If these parents were upset because the underprivileged students were simply being added to the district, you'd have much firmer ground to stand on when you call this racism. The reality of this is something else entirely. They're losing something that they paid for not just with their mortgage but also their property taxes.
 

Deleted member 6230

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Oct 25, 2017
6,118
There's plenty wrong with the way school districts are funded but don't call parents racists because they're upset that their kids may be bounced from a district arbitrarily. There isn't a decent house near a good school district that isn't advertising the school district as part of the package. There are people shopping for houses whose #1 consideration is the school district that neighborhood will belong to.

It may not be important to you but school districts are important to plenty of homeowners and home buyers out there and this initiative is a big enough 'fuck you' that outrage towards the implementation is more than warranted. If these parents were upset because the underprivileged students were simply being added to the district, you'd have much firmer ground to stand on when you call this racism. The reality of this is something else entirely. They're losing something that they paid for not just with their mortgage but also their property taxes.
NYC schools arent funded via property taxes
 

Mercurial

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
985
You're paying for the hope of your kids to get zoned to the district but that isn't at all a guarantee.

You're doing your best to be obtuse about this because you've already made up your mind that it's no big deal. You're really not fooling anyone and I'm honestly not interested in discussing this further with someone who is so dedicated to being intellectually dishonest.
 

Mercurial

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
985
My favorite part was where you poked a whole in their argument and it suddenly did not matter.

Generally speaking, expensive homes have higher property taxes. If you purchased an expensive home to be send your children to a quality school that your home was districted for, you're paying higher property taxes for the privilege even if those property taxes don't go to the school. The parents of the students displaced by this decision don't get to pay less on their property taxes just because a major incentive of that property has suddenly been arbitrarily taken away from them.

Assuming you're not infinite's alt, explain how the fool poked a "whole" in the argument.
 

Deleted member 6230

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Oct 25, 2017
6,118
Right, because there are some capacity issues today, parents should be ok with capacity being reduced by a further 25%? You keep coming back to this argument, but it makes no sense.
Their perceived problem is bigger than this diversity initiative but integration is the solution for solving the achievement gap that's ailing poc and poor communities. As someone already said this is among the most prolific form of systemic racism in this country today. We need to solve it and this is a prototype for the solution.
 

PanickyFool

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,947
Generally speaking, expensive homes have higher property taxes. If you purchased an expensive home to be send your children to a quality school that it is zoned for, you're paying higher property taxes for the privilege even if those property taxes don't go to the school. The parents of the students displaced by this decision don't get to pay less on their property taxes just because a major incentive of that property has suddenly been arbitrarily taken away from them.

Assuming you're not infinite's alt, explain how the fool poked a "whole" in the argument.
So now personal wealth is a valid reason to keep society from dismantling a major point of institutional racism?
 

Mercurial

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
985
So now personal wealth is a valid reason to keep society from dismantling a major point of institutional racism?

Like most others here, you seem to be under the impression that dispassionately fucking people over who had nothing to do with creating that problem is an acceptable solution.

If the goal is actually to improve educational outcomes for disadvantaged students, the DOE could have provided earmarked funding to a number of pilot schools in wealthy districts to expand their seats by 25% with the express requirement that those seats with students from poorer districts to gauge the efficacy of this effort. Kicking kids out of districts they belong in isn't a solution and it's goddamned ridiculous that that isn't apparent on its face to people like you.
 

PanickyFool

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,947
Like most others here, you seem to be under the impression that dispassionately fucking people over who had nothing to do with creating that problem is an acceptable solution.

If the goal is actually to improve educational outcomes for disadvantaged students, the DOE could have provided earmarked funding to a number of pilot schools in wealthy districts to expand their seats by 25% with the express requirement that those seats with students from poorer districts to gauge the efficacy of this effort. Kicking kids out of districts they belong in isn't a solution and it's goddamned ridiculous that that isn't apparent on its face.

No one is fucking over anyone. Past "busing" does not show adverse effects for the "good students" going to the "bad schools." While the students with less institutional advantage showed significant gains. It is not a zero sum transaction.

And your are being extremely cold for saying that generational institutional advantage should continue. These people are creating the problem by perpetuating their advantage on their children at the expense of other children.

539w.jpg
 

Mercurial

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
985
User warned: personal attack/unwarranted accusation, repeated condescension across many posts
Are you seriously accusing them of being infinite's alt just because they agreed with him?

With a drive-by, single-sentence post that pats him on the back for a disproved assertion? I'm at least willing to entertain the thought, yes.
 

Torres

Member
Oct 29, 2017
265
No sympathy for the rich whites and them not getting their precious moneys worth. Steamroll through them, good on you NYC school districts.
 

GuyIncognito

Member
Nov 2, 2017
77
New York
No one is fucking over anyone. Past "busing" does not show adverse effects for the "good students" going to the "bad schools." While the students with less institutional advantage showed significant gains. It is not a zero sum transaction.

And your are being extremely cold for saying that generational institutional advantage should continue. These people are creating the problem by perpetuating their advantage on their children at the expense of other children.

Can you point to the studies or data on outcomes for students bused to the poorer performing schools? It's easy to find info on the good schools and students bused in (both are good, including the good schools not getting "worse") but not for those displaced
 

woman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,532
Atlanta
Wealthy parents with tons of resources thinking their children are losing out by not going to the best schools is hilarious. If this plan goes through, they'll probably end up better off than the poor, underperforming kids who will attend the better schools.

It's not about genuine concern for the lives of their children. It's about protecting and preserving the image of upper class status as best they can.
 

riverfr0zen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,165
Manhattan, New York
Like most others here, you seem to be under the impression that dispassionately fucking people over who had nothing to do with creating that problem is an acceptable solution.

They may have not created it, but they certainly are taking / have taken advantage of it and otherwise enjoyed the benefits. By your very words, the fact that they were able to, through their wealth, secure better circumstances in public schools for their children (and expect to continue doing so) is symptomatic of the situation.
 

PanickyFool

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,947

99nikniht

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,352
Generally speaking, expensive homes have higher property taxes. If you purchased an expensive home to be send your children to a quality school that your home was districted for, you're paying higher property taxes for the privilege even if those property taxes don't go to the school. The parents of the students displaced by this decision don't get to pay less on their property taxes just because a major incentive of that property has suddenly been arbitrarily taken away from them.

Assuming you're not infinite's alt, explain how the fool poked a "whole" in the argument.

This essentially amounts to: "Fuck you, I got mine" or here's a photo to represent it.
afb9ec57b395a65ac8c317eca20d7d39--ayn-rand-book-jacket.jpg
 

Mercurial

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
985
This essentially amounts to: "Fuck you, I got mine" or here's a photo to represent it.

So what is the net worth cap for the extent to which I can empathize with the parents in this situation? The quality of school districts varies all over the country. Would this be acceptable in a school district whose average house appraised at 100K? How about 300? 500?

It's easy to say this is OK in a district you don't belong to. Would you be as generous and forward thinking if your own kids were going to be displaced to a lower-performing school so students below grade level could have their spot?
 
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Deleted member 29676

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Nov 1, 2017
1,804

Your link doesn't touch on his question at all.

I've ready plenty of studies showing when minorities are bussed both the white and minority students benefit but he is looking for studies on the impact of white students forcibly bussed into minority districts. That's one i've never seen.
 

PanickyFool

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,947
So what is the net worth cap for the extent to which I can empathize with the parents in this situation? The quality of school districts varies all over the country. Would this be acceptable in a school district whose average house appraised at 100K? How about 300? 500?
Public schools, as with all socialist institutions, exist to maximize the common good and not to maximize the individual good.

Your link doesn't touch on his question at all.

I've ready plenty of studies showing when minorities are bussed both the white and minority students benefit but he is looking for studies on the impact of white students forcibly bussed into minority districts. That's one i've never seen.

https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2017/03/16/515788673/try-this-one-trick-to-improve-student-outcomes

And from that link
https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/201...hite-children-benefit-from-integrated-schools
 
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99nikniht

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,352
So what is the net worth cap for the extent to which I can empathize with the parents in this situation? The quality of school districts varies all over the country. Would this be acceptable in a school district whose average house appraised at 100K? How about 300? 500?

Let me ask you this, does your wage correlate with how intelligent one is? Are you espousing that your income should grant and perpetuate one's potential in life? If you say yes to both, then we really have nothing to discuss.

Public schools, as with all socialist institutions, exist to maximize the common good and not to maximize the individual good.

Essentially this. Public schools are exactly that, a PUBLIC institution. The parts of society that needs the most help are the ones that aren't receiving them. You can argue that there are other factors including the stability of the household. But, if society does not provide them the tools/opportunity to establish stability for future generations, it's differs little from a caste type society.
 

Mercurial

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
985
Let me ask you this, does your wage correlate with how intelligent one is? Are you espousing that your income should grant and perpetuate one's potential in life? If you say yes to both, then we really have nothing to discuss.

Essentially this. Public schools are exactly that, a PUBLIC institution. The parts of society that needs the most help are the ones that aren't receiving them. You can argue that there are other factors including the stability of the household. But, if society does not provide them the tools/opportunity to establish stability for future generations, it's differs little from a caste type society.

Answer my questions and I'll answer yours. Since we're retroactively punishing homeowners for participating in this evil system that they didn't build, what's the net worth cap for who I'm allowed to empathize with? Is this form of correction more preferable to you than changing the funding model to bring all schools up to par with these above-average schools?
 
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Deleted member 29676

User Requested Account Closure
Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,804
Public schools, as with all socialist institutions, exist to maximize the common good and not to maximize the individual good.



https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2017/03/16/515788673/try-this-one-trick-to-improve-student-outcomes

And from that link
https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/201...hite-children-benefit-from-integrated-schools

Again, neither of those links say what he is asking. The federal government report those NPR articles are citing and based on says when white students who go to schools with the highest minority density they as likely to achieve as white students in schools with low minority density holding equal socioeconomic status of the student population. It did not look at white students who were at white majority schools who were moved to minority dominated schools if the other school has lower funding or average levels of attainment.
 

WhySoDevious

Member
Oct 31, 2017
8,466
I don't understand the article in the OP.

They say that they want to bring in disadvantaged and underprivileged students, but the criteria is low test scores?

Wouldn't that bring in underachieving students instead?
 

PanickyFool

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,947
I don't understand the article in the OP.

They say that they want to bring in disadvantaged and underprivileged students, but the criteria is low test scores?

Wouldn't that bring in underachieving students instead?
It really is not legal to discriminate on race, so these high correlation metrics are used.

Unless a court order determined previous policies racist and requiring corrections.

Underachieving is subjective, especially when using standardized testing. Some of those underachieving students have amazing amounts of maturity and responsibilities. While a lot do not have a nearly as stable a life as a white person in the UWS.

Again, neither of those links say what he is asking. The federal government report those NPR articles are citing and based on says when white students who go to schools with the highest minority density they as likely to achieve as white students in schools with low minority density holding equal socioeconomic status of the student population. It did not look at white students who were at white majority schools who were moved to minority dominated schools if the other school has lower funding or average levels of attainment.
Ok I see your point related to that set. But lower funding is not a issue in NYC and the city is majority minority anyway with the school population being plurality non-white Hispanic followed by black. So the self segregation by white people here is disgusting.
 

Vanillalite

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,709
It really is not legal to discriminate on race, so these high correlation metrics are used.

Unless a court order determined previous policies racist and requiring corrections.

Underachieving is subjective, especially when using standardized testing. Some of those underachieving students have amazing amounts of maturity and responsibilities. While a lot do not have a nearly as stable a life as a white person in the UWS.


Ok I see your point related to that set. But lower funding is not a issue in NYC and the city is majority minority anyway with the school population being plurality non-white Hispanic followed by black. So the self segregation by white people here is disgusting.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/06/1...s_latest_school_integration_battleground.html

I specifically asked about this above.

That NYT article posted specifically says

Getting Najya into one of the disproportionately white schools in the city felt like accepting the inevitability of this two-tiered system: one set of schools with excellent resources for white kids and some black and Latino middle-class kids, a second set of underresourced schools for the rest of the city's black and Latino kids.

Then another article was linked in that the nobody knows how the fuck all the money is being proportioned out. It definitely sounds like money and resources ARE an issue.
 

JABEE

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,856
"If you ask me to bus my children, I hope the cops take down your name." - Phil Ochs Love Me, I'm A Liberal

The class arguments are a means to get around using racist arguments. Bill Clinton's vision of America relied on this structure.

De-Facto Reagan Racism re-packaged to fit the needs of white northern racists who earned the right to send their children to better, more wealthy schools.

It's not because the other students they are denying happen to be black, it's because those kids don't have parents paying expensive taxes. It just so happens all the old laws in this country made sure very few black parents could afford to buy houses in these affluent neighborhoods, and those who can are often conveniently refused or ostracized by leading progressive professionals who all have children going to the Ivys.

Their charitable donations "tax breaks" allow them to decide where their funds should go, because they would rather purchase sweaters for puppies than deal with the absolute horror of the government spending their money on the children of minorities.
 

99nikniht

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,352
Answer my questions and I'll answer yours. Since we're retroactively punishing homeowners for participating in this evil system that they didn't build, what's the net worth cap for who I'm allowed to empathize with? Is this form of correction more preferable to you than changing the funding model to bring all schools up to par with these above-average schools?

You keep insisting that the flaws of the system does not perpetuate systemic economic preferences that has existed for decades. Yes you can empathize with the parents that feel that the chances of their children to succeed in life is somewhat diminished, and I can also do so to some extent.
However, the buck has to stop somewhere in order to right the wrongs of our predecessors. It just seems like as long as the buck doesn't stop at MY generation, then ya it's all gravy. Let the next few subsequent generations handle that hot mess.
There isn't a numerical value on how much one's family earn to how privileged one's children will be. Everyone's taxes goes into the local government, whether that amount is a percentage of 100k, 200k, or whatever. These funds are pooled for the betterment of society, and the resources not exclusive to the few that earns much more than the rest of that city/state/country.