JdFox17

Member
Oct 26, 2017
470
Garland shows open disgust in interviews when the interviewers make the comparison you're making in the spoilers.
*shrug*

Death of the author and all of that. I find it pretty damn hard to believe it's not intentional, or that he didn't see it coming. There's no way a man with the history of subtle storytelling of Garland could sprinkle in all of these details and then be completely blindsided by the most obvious comparisons.

Even the dreaded "antifa" line has zero context or meaning behind it. It could be interpreted in any manner. It's merely a characterization moment for background knowledge. I also think the fact so much of the narrative focus is on Charlottesville as a hotspot of activity is also pretty thinly veiled. But I'm an English teacher, and sometimes a bottle floating in the ocean isn't some metaphor for life's journey, it's just a piece of litter.
 

Sidebuster

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,517
California
He didn't say all people want that. And if you didn't turn it off, you would have seen that. It was a wonderful interview and I hope he continues to write/direct movies.

"Nobody on the planet wants division in this country they want stability and decency"

Okay I watched the rest. He really wants to come to the conclusion that there's one side making this world worse be he just doesn't do it. He just keeps blaming "political polarization". This really is a "war is bad because people aren't nice to each other" but with no understanding (or courage to say ) WHY they aren't nice to each other.

Also he understands that degrading journalism and making journalist out to be untrustworthy is bad, that a part of destroying democracy is degrading journalism, but doesn't seem to be able to or want to connect the dots or acknowledge/understand only one "side" is actually doing this.

Watching the rest of the video just cements the idea that he's riding the fence because he thinks that's the right thing to do. He thinks being Switzerland isn't picking a side.
 

coldsagging

AVALANCHE
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,724
Just came out, don't agree that it has nothing to say. My strongest immediate impression is the warning/message of how we can become so quickly and easily desensitised to incredible violence. Here for it.

I thought it was good.
 

noodlesoup

Member
Feb 21, 2018
2,945
Chicago, IL
Eruptor plus stalwart and laser rover plus whatever strategems is a great combo vs bugs especially the bile spewers. I still can't abandon the autocannon vs bots though, too versatile vs eruptor. Can't shoot hulks in eyes, I don't think it can take down gunships. Plus distance restriction isn't good either.
Yeah, I wasn't expecting to see a Factory Strider waltzing around DC.
 

northnorth

Member
Dec 4, 2017
1,894
8/10. It's super intense and it works. But like others said, they give you little reason to care about the characters. And the lack of any reason this is happening is disappointing to me. I mean I get it, but it would have meant more to know who is fighting and for what.

Also, and this is TOTALLY just me, I think a lot of yall will like some of this stuff. Extreme art house vibes from some scenes. Music and just not even questioning some things. ESP at the very end. Like not even checking on someone? It's like it chooses to be so fucking.. cute that it doesn't make sense.

But that's just me. Still a great 8/10 and def something I'm going to put in my 4K bluray collection.
 

Kusagari

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,862
He didn't say all people want that. And if you didn't turn it off, you would have seen that. It was a wonderful interview and I hope he continues to write/direct movies.

Don't worry he's let us know how utterly garbage a person he is in the countless other interviews he's given.

GI4n3vBXwAAzNYB
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,198
The president is a fascist shitbag. He's claimed a third term in office, he's shooting and executing journalists everywhere, you hear his rhetoric the whole movie that sounds like tough guy Donald Trump analogs. Every time the movie shows his forces, they're the worst examples of people in the film. As I said, it doesn't outright state the political affiliations, but anyone can read between the lines and pretty clearly see who Garland is emulating.

By the way, Jesse Plemmons here was absolutely terrifying.
Just to note, I don't want to ping everyone by quoting them, so I'm not trying to ignore people's response. lol

But the reality in 2024 is that the current political apparatus in Texas seems like it would happily go along if Trump decided that 2024 was a stolen election and called for armed forces to support him in stopping a "stolen election". Which is why I find this odd.

If the fictional president is a fascist, what are his actual politics? His policies? Why would the East Coast and maybe New York be cool with it?

The criticism from critics who both like and dislike the film seems to be that he doesn't want you to interrogate the world building and ask these questions, and maybe I just need to watch the film myself to see what is and isn't there. Or just move on with my life and finally watch Mr. and Mrs. Smith or one of the hundreds of other things in my backlog. lol
 

Ronald_Raygun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
297
Austin
I enjoyed the film. The sound design was incredibly unsettling, even from the opening credits.

I think the politics of the film are quite obvious and would encourage folks to go see it before forming an opinion.
 

JdFox17

Member
Oct 26, 2017
470
Just to note, I don't want to ping everyone by quoting them, so I'm not trying to ignore people's response. lol

But the reality in 2024 is that the current political apparatus in Texas seems like it would happily go along if Trump decided that 2024 was a stolen election and called for armed forces to support him in stopping a "stolen election". Which is why I find this odd.

If the fictional president is a fascist, what are his actual politics? His policies? Why would the East Coast and maybe New York be cool with it?

The criticism from critics who both like and dislike the film seems to be that he doesn't want you to interrogate the world building and ask these questions, and maybe I just need to watch the film myself to see what is and isn't there. Or just move on with my life and finally watch Mr. and Mrs. Smith or one of the hundreds of other things in my backlog. lol
There are no outright policy specifics other than the mentioned bombing of American citizens and execution of journalists
, which I can understand is a problem for some. But I also see this as this president went so far beyond the pale that even California and Texas could put their differences aside to push him out. I can't imagine even a piece of shit like Abbot would sit idly by while an American president orders the bombings of American civilians. I didn't spoiler that because it's outright stated in every marketing material.

The movie does play with the idea of not knowing who's on what side at any given point. Admittedly, this is a bit of a red herring, as there's easy environmental details that clue you in on which side which soldiers are fighting, but there's still a marked attempt to obfuscate the truth. From a thematic point of view, it works for me because this isn't a story focused on the how's or why's. It's the story of the journalists and how they're trying to show the people of the country -- most of whom would rather simply hide their heads in the sand (in what is poignant political commentary in itself) -- the horrors of what's happening and why this guy needs to be stopped. I was not prepared for just how unflinching the actions of everyone are and how there is no hesitation in doing what needs to be done because this president is such a major piece of shit. Spoiler about Plemmons's character and his motivations:
Again, Garland goes out of his way to show allies of the president are racist, xenophobic pieces of shit. Plemmons is an ally of the federal forces and he straight murders two guys because they're foreign and nearly murders one of the main characters because he's Hispanic from Florida.
Why Garland won't publicly commit to the what I feel is the obvious imagery and characterization, I don't know. But I feel getting bogged down in the details of policy is less important than the message that it's trying to convey. It's merely a storytelling decision -- not hidden endorsement of Trumpism or fascism.
 

Piston

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,608
Just to note, I don't want to ping everyone by quoting them, so I'm not trying to ignore people's response. lol

But the reality in 2024 is that the current political apparatus in Texas seems like it would happily go along if Trump decided that 2024 was a stolen election and called for armed forces to support him in stopping a "stolen election". Which is why I find this odd.

If the fictional president is a fascist, what are his actual politics? His policies? Why would the East Coast and maybe New York be cool with it?

The criticism from critics who both like and dislike the film seems to be that he doesn't want you to interrogate the world building and ask these questions, and maybe I just need to watch the film myself to see what is and isn't there. Or just move on with my life and finally watch Mr. and Mrs. Smith or one of the hundreds of other things in my backlog. lol
I'm always of the opinion that it is more productive to watch something (good or bad) and then have thoughts on it. Not really sure why some people spend so much time thinking about something they have no intentions of watching. Just spend the 2 hours watching it rather than diving into the discourse around it for hours beforehand, you will be in a much better position to provide analysis or judge it.
 

Zeliard

Member
Jun 21, 2019
11,641
Why Garland won't publicly commit to the what I feel is the obvious imagery and characterization, I don't know. But I feel getting bogged down in the details of policy is less important than the message that it's trying to convey. It's merely a storytelling decision -- not hidden endorsement of Trumpism or fascism.

But he *has* commented on it and I don't think we can invoke Death of the Author here. No film is ever made in a vacuum - it's always a sign of the times and a sign of where its filmmakers are at the time, and Garland deliberately wrote this movie as a reaction to what he was seeing as intense polarization in the United States, specifically, in 2020.

I gather that the movie is extraordinary on a technical level - visuals, sound - and is overall a harrowing experience of some kind of war, but Garland has always been a master at creating that sort of tension and fear and encroaching, confusing menace. That was never going to be beyond any doubt.

The problem as it were is Garland is to some extent trying to have his cake and eat it too, deliberately and provocatively titling a war film "Civil War" and setting it in the United States - written in a context where dropping and smashing Confederate statues into the ocean became a major national discussion, where people did and still believe in a Lost Cause appraisal of that war (that people in the United States simply call "the civil war"), pseudo-historical nonsense which argues at its less extremes both the Union and Confederates had moral justification.

Look at the Robbie Collin review:

It wouldn't be fair to describe Alex Garland's new film as Apocalypse Now for centrists – even though for some of us, that sounds like the movie of the year. But it certainly is a hotly topical heart-of-darkness journey in which the darkness's political origins and aims are virtually beside the point.

Though it might be about total societal disintegration in a very near-future version of the United States of America, Civil War is neither an anti-Trump exemplum nor an anti-woke one. And that lack of a clear-cut message is liable to cheese off all the right people (not to mention the left ones). But Garland, the writer and director of Ex Machina, Annihilation and Men, is defiantly uninterested here in taking a side. Rather, his film is about the business of side-taking itself, and where our growing mania for doing so ultimately leads.

That's what a film like this threatens to do, create a bizarre justification for both "sides" being at opposite extremes when being "anti-Trump" is really being anti-fascist and being "anti-woke" is being a hateful piece of shit. No, the two aren't equivalent versions of the same thing, though it certainly all sounds like at least one centrist's wet dream. Sometimes taking a staunch side really is the proper thing to do, and thinking otherwise is how we've had so many people equivocating over what's happening in Israel and Palestine.

I have a fundamental problem with the entire premise behind this film and most notably Garland's apparent governing principles for making it, which I absolutely don't think can be divorced from the final product. I have absolutely no doubt that it's a spectacular kinetic experience, particularly in a booming theater.
 
Nov 2, 2017
2,341
saw someone compare this to nightcrawler and uh… not far off 🤔

Yeah, all of the stuff mentioning "the neutrality of images" has had Nightcrawler on the brain for me, specifically for how that film is about how the images aren't actually neutral and divorcing things from context, the way Garland wants to do with his wishy-washy nonsense setting, is Bad Actually.
 

adj_noun

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
19,114
I looked at the faction map and a full hour of this movie had better be someone explaining how Washington and Oregon didn't ally with California, but instead threw in with Idaho. I am not serious.

New People's Army? Cascadia was right there!
 

Zeliard

Member
Jun 21, 2019
11,641
The Wired review isn't very kind to it, and goes into some detail

The divisions Garland worried about have only increased, driven by rampant conspiratorial thinking around Covid and vaccines, Trump's baseless stolen-election conspiracies, a growing right-wing media empire spewing disinformation, and, of course, the attack on the US Capitol.

Rather than making a film calling out these threats and divisions head on, Garland instead created something much more akin to a far-right fantasy recruiting tool. In Civil War, Garland's apocalyptic US features a country ostensibly stripped of partisan labels, where both the left and right become intolerant of each other and turn deadly.

For all its visual artistry—and there is plenty of that in this film—Garland has created a confused narrative that attempts to portray all sides as evil, with only the journalists at the center the real arbiters of truth. But in an age where extremists are ready and primed to decode and interpret any piece of media for their own ends, what Garland has really done is create a film in which these groups can see themselves on screen as the good guys.
 

NewDust

Visited by Knack
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,044
I just want to say that the sound design is stellar. Might go again when it moves to Atmos screen in my theatre.
 

Scullibundo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,941
Man, why won't Garland - who has just directed A24's most expensive movie ever made, just flat out explain which political side the film very obviously demonizes whilst doing interviews to advertise the film to the widest audience possible?

Fuck, I wish I knew.
 

Kusagari

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,862
Man, why won't Garland - who has just directed A24's most expensive movie ever made, just flat out explain which political side the film very obviously demonizes whilst doing interviews to advertise the film to the widest audience possible?

Fuck, I wish I knew.

So A24 is making him give long soliloquies in interviews about how both sides are bad and political polarization is bad and we need to come to the middle?
 
Dec 17, 2022
1,934
I like Garland, I really do, but two weeks ago I watched an interview of him making this, and the premise was something like… Not taking sides, the reasons for each side doesn't matter, it's really a story of the journalist caught in the middle and impact of the conflict. And it was said it would make the film divisive to some. I was going to post about it, but… felt no one would care.

And truthfully, that interview is the point I lost interest in the film. The reasons why are important… and pretty black and white IRL, IMO… you have a side against women's rights in favor of voter suppression with an anti LGBTQ agenda more interested in soundbytes than gun control, who's followers RAIDED THE CAPITAL resulting in deaths. So to sit there and say there is "No good or bad" is a childish and lazy approach politics when you literally have those suppressing the rights of others wanting more power to do so.

Why even base it around a "Civil War", just duplicate a Roland Emmerich film with a journalist in the middle of a bombastic random cataclysm instead.

Am I crazy for feeing this way? Should I give it a chance regardless?
 

Loud Wrong

Member
Feb 24, 2020
15,704
I like Garland, I really do, but two weeks ago I watched an interview of him making this, and the premise was something like… Not taking sides, the reasons for each side doesn't matter, it's really a story of the journalist caught in the middle and impact of the conflict. And it was said it would make the film divisive to some. I was going to post about it, but… felt no one would care.

And truthfully, that interview is the point I lost interest in the film. The reasons why are important… and pretty black and white IRL, IMO… you have a side against women's rights in favor of voter suppression with an anti LGBTQ agenda more interested in soundbytes than gun control, who's followers RAIDED THE CAPITAL resulting in deaths. So to sit there and say there is "No good or bad" is a childish and lazy approach politics when you literally have those suppressing the rights of others wanting more power to do so.

Why even base it around a "Civil War", just duplicate a Roland Emmerich film with a journalist in the middle of a bombastic random cataclysm instead.

Am I crazy for feeing this way? Should I give it a chance regardless?
You're free to feel however you want. If you're questioning it, maybe just wait for streaming.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
34,475
Just got back from seeing it and have purposefully avoided reading any of the discourse around it since release. Thought it was pretty mediocre outside of the lead performances and compelling visuals. The scene with Jesse Plemons was the best, with the White House perimeter in second. I cared about the characters, thought Kirsten Dunst was great. Didn't like the ending though, thought it fell completely flat there.

I didn't find it harrowing either, just tense at times. The lack of any real deeper understanding of the conflict kept me on the surface the whole time and ultimately prevents any deep feelings one way or the other.

Immediate thoughts are erring between a 2.5 or a 3/5.
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,198
Again, Garland goes out of his way to show allies of the president are racist, xenophobic pieces of shit. Plemmons is an ally of the federal forces and he straight murders two guys because they're foreign and nearly murders one of the main characters because he's Hispanic from Florida.
Why Garland won't publicly commit to the what I feel is the obvious imagery and characterization, I don't know. But I feel getting bogged down in the details of policy is less important than the message that it's trying to convey. It's merely a storytelling decision -- not hidden endorsement of Trumpism or fascism.

I could be wrong about real life politics but isn't Texas the state that's shipping undocumented people to California and New York as a way to protest Biden? Like... it sounds like that government would be happy with what the Plemmons character is up to.

Oh yes: https://gov.texas.gov/news/post/operation-lone-star-sends-over-500-migrant-buses-to-sanctuary-cities


I dunno, why even make me ask these questions I guess? From a writing point of view, it's just very strange to me at least.

I'm always of the opinion that it is more productive to watch something (good or bad) and then have thoughts on it. Not really sure why some people spend so much time thinking about something they have no intentions of watching. Just spend the 2 hours watching it rather than diving into the discourse around it for hours beforehand, you will be in a much better position to provide analysis or judge it.
Yes, this is true. The problem is I'm am or maybe was a fan of Garland, which is the only reason I care about this film at all. If this was like a Roland Emmerich film as someone suggested above (and it certainly sounds like Roland Emmerich's version of Stonewall where it's a film about the birth of gay rights but with no complicated racial/trans politics) I would have moved on with my life the moment the trailer came out.
 
May 24, 2019
23,283
Did anyone else notice a lack of children or teens outside of the tent shelter scene? Not that Im particularly interested in seeing kid corpses, but especially with what we're seeing in the real world right now, it definitely felt like a pulled punch.

Edit: Maybe there were younger people in the water tanker scene at the start, I don't remember.
 

theBmZ

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
2,203
I think the truth, no matter how many people refuse to believe it, is that most people do come to a centralized position on many issues. The problem is that politics have become so polarized between each faction that they refuse to see themselves as anything other than total good. The left believe the right is evil, and the right believes the left is evil. Left and right are not monolithic entities themselves.

That polarization exists within each faction. I think Garland smartly realizes this and deliberately creates a messy and confused wartorn America because that is what our current political landscape feels like. I'm staunchly on the left but I also can't deny that the party I vote for is aiding and abetting an ongoing genocide. You can argue that one side is better than the other, and I do. But I can't pretend that my side is entirely righteous.

I don't think Garland is a coward for not explicitly taking a stance. I think if you actually watch the film, there's plenty you can glean about what he feels. He lets the film speak for him. The president is a tyrannical dictator who refuses to leave office, has turned the DC into a fortress, has journalists shot on site, bombs American citizens, and spreads blatant lies on the eve of an operation to overthrow him. People are executed in the film for simply being foreigners. These are clearly villainous qualities.

American politics are in such a state of chaos and division between parties but also within parties to such a degree that if civil war were to break out, it would be a confusing mess of factions and alliances. I like how the journalists have to constantly assess their situation anytime they encounter people. That feels real to me. The lines are not as black and white as we would like to believe. We know extremists exist on the right. But it's also possible for extremism to exist on the left.

The idealized version of the press is that it is neutral. It simply records and reports history factually. There perhaps isn't a more pure version of this than photojournalism. The image can't lie. The image can't manipulate or spin. It simply records history as it happened. I think the film centralizes itself around this idea because the most important thing at the end of the day is the truth. Not what talking heads or political figures or companies or anything else spin as the narrative, but the cold hard truth.

Another brilliant thing the film achieves is in how war journalists pass on their legacy and mission to a younger generation and how the cost attached to being able to do such a job is that you have to give up a piece of your humanity. You have to be able to live with atrocity, to have to even seek it out at times. To get to the truth, you have to exist in the darkest of places without faltering. The trauma that consumes a person over time is hauntingly explored in the film as well.

I don't know. I thought it totally worked. I think it's an accurate portrayal of our current political climate and smartly shows that a modern civil war would be confusing and wrought with violence and uncertainty around every corner. The film is decidedly not a film about sides, it's about seeking the truth in a violent and confusing landscape where we have become so desensitized to the horrors that face us as well as our inability to trust or engage with one another.

I wish people would talk about it based on its own merits and story it wants to tell rather than fault it for simply not regurgitating whatever you ideals you believe in.
 

NameUser

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,224
I don't think Garland is a coward for not explicitly taking a stance. I think if you actually watch the film, there's plenty you can glean about what he feels. He lets the film speak for him. The president is a tyrannical dictator who refuses to leave office, has turned the DC into a fortress, has journalists shot on site, bombs American citizens, and spreads blatant lies on the eve of an operation to overthrow him. People are executed in the film for simply being foreigners. These are clearly villainous qualities.
Is the President a Republican or Democrat?
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
34,475
I wish people would talk about it based on its own merits and story it wants to tell rather than fault it for simply not regurgitating whatever you ideals you believe in.
I don't think it does work particularly well on its own merits. In being so concerned with avoiding commentary by virtue of its setting, it manages to deny itself a lot of narrative depth. What's the history behind the conflict that led to the situations we're seeing was just an unanswered question throughout for me. Not because I'm gagging for the director of MEN to say trans rights but because I was part-invested in the film and it stood out. The leads and cinematography carry this film on their back all the way to DC.
 

theBmZ

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
2,203
Is the President a Republican or Democrat?
I'm not sure if this is supposed to be some kind of gotcha response. Would you feel better if the president was explicitly stated to be a Republican? Considering fascism and fascist figures exist as and in far right ideologies, my read is that the president is at the very least a Republican or someone on the right. I think that kind of proves my point about people needing clearly defined heroes and villains to satisfy their ideological leanings. People want the right to be clearly depicted as evil and the left to be clearly depicted as good. I like that it doesn't take that approach.
 

DrROBschiz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,926
The premise terrifies me considering how close to real life it feels

But i could give it a shot if there is something compelling to actually explore here

The trailer just pretty much paints the absolute nightmare that I would expect from something like this actually happening and it made me sick to my stomach
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,072
I don't think it does work particularly well on its own merits. In being so concerned with avoiding commentary by virtue of its setting, it manages to deny itself a lot of narrative depth. What's the history behind the conflict that led to the situations we're seeing was just an unanswered question throughout for me. Not because I'm gagging for the director of MEN to say trans rights but because I was part-invested in the film and it stood out. The leads and cinematography carry this film on their back all the way to DC.

I don't know, if you look at other war films, such as Apocalypse Now, the film never really ever gives any background into who or why people are fighting….they just are.

I found this movie to be a tremendous success. I felt the writing was exceptional and avoided over laying modern American politics into a movie about war journalism. I think this will also make this film far more timeless than if it had leaned on some republican vs. democrat demagoguery.
 

JigglesBunny

Prophet of Truth
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
33,324
Chicago
I absolutely hated this. The most cowardly centrist bullshit, all operating with a premise that demands a firm point of view. Every bit as deplorable as Men, but at least that had the guts to have a point of view, even if that point of view was muddled, halfhearted, noncommittal male feminism.

One of the most frustrating theatrically released movies in at least half a decade. Just empty, toothless dreck masquerading its cowardice with performers that deserved better material and indie drama wrapping paper.

Oh, and the production put money into Andy Ngo's pockets, so if there were any point of view to this, it's apparently one that's comfortable with paying nazis for b-roll.
 
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NameUser

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,224
I don't think it's a coincidence that the Secret Service agent that tries to negotiate for him looks like Candace Owens or that the soldier at the mass grave keeps asking them if they are "real Americans", etc
Yeah, they sound like hardcore right wingers. The democrats would be more subtle, almost like the parents in Get Out. So it's weird that he's making it out to be both sides, when extremist like that are more on the right. Just seems cowardly to me.