Fuck Religion. And fuck people victim blaming in here. "But That CaRToon oFfEnDeD the KillerS..." wt actual f.
Except the first beheading was explicitly about the attacker being offended at a fucking cartoon. And the calls to violence from religious extremists we're seeing on social media and elsewhere also make explicit reference to the cartoons.it also comes after two Muslim women were stabbed near the Eiffel Tower:
Two Muslim women stabbed under Eiffel Tower 'by white women shouting "dirty Arabs" (it's funny that the article is about attacks on Muslim women but all the images are about people mourning the teacher).
it also comes after a huge increase in Islamophobia, with the government closing multiple mosques.
I don't condone the attacks in the slightest, I hope the fucker gets what he deserves, but saying the attack was "because of cartoons" is not only ignoring the real issue but very much adding to it.
Today's tweet from former Malaysian prime minister which sparked a discussion in french social media...
Are you fucking serious with this?
Yup. Victim blaming is tolerated surprisingly much in the other thread and also in this one.I know the comment and poster you are talking about. That was the most disgusting post I've seen on this website by far. That they only got a 3-month ban for it is something else.
Now, just to clarify. These murders are horrible horrible things and anyone who tries to justify it is a fool and idiot.
I, however, see the boycott as a separate thing and can be attributed to the horrible president that Macron is. He has for the past months been attacking Islam and Muslims, even prior to the first horrible murder, and kept talking about the French way. Well guess what? That whole shitty French way is the sole reason why millions of people from Africa and MENA live in France.
Alternatively, Macron's refusal to remove free speech unlike what some want.In this particular case fueled by Macron refusing to condemn some cartoons, which is a particularly weird thing to expect in the wake of a religiously motivated murder.
Today's tweet from former Malaysian prime minister which sparked a discussion in french social media...
I guess you can openly call for the killing of a whole nationality on Twitter now.Funny how Twitter is ok with this tweet. There are lots of deleted (for violating Twitter rules) comments to this tweet, so surely Twitter employees saw it.
Today's tweet from former Malaysian prime minister which sparked a discussion in french social media...
I agree about the French treatment of Muslims, but the impression I get (and the reporting was a bit confusing so I might be way off) is that the protests and calls for boycotts are just another one of those blasphemy rows that have flare up every now and then. In this particular case fueled by Macron refusing to condemn some cartoons, which is a particularly weird thing to expect in the wake of a religiously motivated murder.
Disgusting double standards. Twitter is really trash.Funny how Twitter is ok with this tweet. There are lots of deleted (for violating Twitter rules) comments to this tweet, so surely Twitter employees saw it.
Today's tweet from former Malaysian prime minister which sparked a discussion in french social media...
I absolutely disagree with your take. Islam, as a whole, is in a deep crisis, and has been for centuries. It started with the demise of the Muu'tazila -The faction that subordinates the text to the mind: Logic should dictate how the text is read, interpreted and acted upon, and not the opposite-, went through several failed reform attempts and ended up in this abysmal state because of the dominant Wahabi movement.
The germs of the extremism are within the dogma itself, and are part and parcel of Islam as a politic-socio-religious structure. Almost all of what we, Muslims, believe in, is merely the input of a few people that took it upon themselves to analyze the "sacred" text and compile the hadiths (deeds and sayings of the prophet) almost 13 centuries ago...And that exegesis goes unchallenged. Have you ever heard of any realm or human domain, in which the tools that serve to weigh and judge have remained stagnant for close to a millennium and half a millennium? That would be laughed at but, no, it gets a free pass because of some made up reason.
Islam has most certainly been corrupted (a criticism that Muslims love to formulate when discussing Christianity) and, I dare say, is completely misunderstood; Not by a minority, no, by 99% of Muslims. Muslim philosophers and thinkers have been raising this point for years, but they have all been ridiculed and accused of having been westernized, whatever that means. It is a shitty situation, and it will only get worse by not opening one's eyes to the bleakness of it all.
Reminder that there's a fucking cultural genocide against Muslims happening in China right now but these motherfuckers are more upset about a cartoon being shown. Fuck these pigs.
what is free speech to Macron's or to French cuz there is always some red line no one should cross them.Alternatively, Macron's refusal to remove free speech unlike what some want.
Because at the end of the day it's not about religion, it's about politics and getting votes. Pakistan needs China - China is building the new silk road and infrastructure out there and most probably Pakistan is in debt to China. Can't scold China. But Imran Khan can scold France over this and get a few votes from the religious right.I will never understand this. The president of Pakistan compares drawings of Mohammed to the holocaust... yet he is allied with China.
"In western society, the holocaust is treated with sensitivity because it hurts the Jewish community. So that's the same respect we ask for; do not hurt our sentiments by maligning our Holy Prophet. That is all we ask."Pakistani Prime Minister's letter comes in the wake of French President Emmanuel Macron remarks after a French teacher was beheaded in Paris after he had shown cartoons of the Prophet during a class he was leading on free speech.
The outrage should be directed at the Chinese government and sycophantic leaders who are silent and indifferent to the suffering of the Uighurs.
Comparing blasphemy to Holocaust denial is a really shitty whatabout to bring up here. This isn't it.Court Rules Against French Comedian Dieudonné in Free-Speech Case (Published 2015)
Europe’s human rights court rejected an appeal by Dieudonné M’Bala M’Bala, saying laws on freedom of expression do not protect anti-Semitic comments or Holocaust denial.www.nytimes.com
Today's tweet from former Malaysian prime minister which sparked a discussion in french social media...
what is free speech to Macron's or to French cuz there is always some red line no one should cross them.
orAnti-Israel Activism Criminalized in the Land of Charlie Hebdo and “Free Speech”
Many who wrapped themselves in the 'free speech' banner earlier this year have no genuine belief in that right, writes Glenn Greenwald.theintercept.com
Court Rules Against French Comedian Dieudonné in Free-Speech Case (Published 2015)
Europe’s human rights court rejected an appeal by Dieudonné M’Bala M’Bala, saying laws on freedom of expression do not protect anti-Semitic comments or Holocaust denial.www.nytimes.com
But what the hell does that even mean?Islam is in as much crisis as Christianity and all other backwards religions. No need to make special exceptions for it.
blasphemy !!! I am comparing Free speech ppl keep saying.... which is BSComparing blasphemy to Holocaust denial is a really shitty whatabout to bring up here. This isn't it.
which lead to convicted of hate crime.Dieudonné M'bala M'bala finished a performance in Paris by inviting a Holocaust denier onstage to receive a prize from an actor dressed in striped pajamas resembling a concentration camp uniform, with a yellow star bearing the word "Jew."
Agreed.Comparing blasphemy to Holocaust denial is a really shitty whatabout to bring up here. This isn't it.
The BDS thing is 100% bullshit, I agree, hence the fact I didn't mention it.blasphemy !!! I am comparing Free speech ppl keep saying.... which is BS
first article about how French criminalize any activity against Israel like BDS or going after the Israel gov and was after the post-Charlie Hebdo "free speech" march in Paris.
sec one is about racist guy who use his Free speech right to mock which lead to convicted of hate crime.
Exactly.Agreed.
A more fair comparison would be the fact that it's a crime to desecrate the French flag and to disrespect the national anthem. It absolutely is hypocritical.
Im an atheist - and obviously extremism has no place for discussion. What's happening in france is fucked up and I hope the perpetrators will be held accountable to the fullest extent of the law. But none of this excuses this whole "fuck religion", or "fuck these outdated beliefs" attitudes that are here. We're frustrated - and I understand and empathise. I have been there. But it is a prejudiced attitude that builds social walls, belittles and degrades, and presupposes some higher understanding elitist mindset.
Agreed.
A more apt comparison would be the fact that it's a crime to desecrate the French flag and to disrespect the national anthem. It absolutely is hypocritical.
Saying that Islam is not any less backwards than other major religions is akin to saying "all lives matter"? What the fuck is this nonsense?But what the hell does that even mean?
First off this is super fucked up and sad.
Now let's address this continued anti- religious, im not islamophobic but I hate all equally nonsense.
In the west, continued targeting of religious minorities happens. And your statement reads like an equivocation that denies the unique experiences of muslims and christians. You've also generalized the incredibly diverse theologies, cultures, and belief systems of over 4 billion people. You have claimed "religion" is in a crisis - which is nonsense. Religion is a symbolic system of control and guidelines that is constantly changed by it's adherents. It's a tool, a sociological structure. Not only that, Islam has many variations despite what a wikipedia binge would tell you. So what Islam is in crisis? What christianity for that matter? It's a nonsense statment. Your post reads like an "all lives matter" type of equivocation that denies the unique experiences and power heirarchies and privileges that people of dominant faiths enjoy in the west.
Also - I really don't think this site has an an ounce of understanding of religion vs religiosity. Around the world exists a litany of people's lives experiences with their faith. To blame a faith is meaningless. People, opportunists, are to blame. They use a peoples way of life as a tool of oppression to manipulate them. They create black and white realities when even Islam acknowledged a lot more then that in it's beliefs.
The people calling for Muslims to denounce this shit is abhorrent. Idc if you're a muslim who believes thats important. Fine - but that's some shit. To demand that a group as a whole, with as much divisions and sects as a faith must bare that burden of ownership of the violence and extremism employed by radicals who have been manipulated by disgusting opportunists seeking power and control by utilizing ones religion against them is illogical and only enables them further.
Im an atheist - and obviously extremism has no place for discussion. What's happening in france is fucked up and I hope the perpetrators will be held accountable to the fullest extent of the law. But none of this excuses this whole "fuck religion", or "fuck these outdated beliefs" attitudes that are here. We're frustrated - and I understand and empathise. I have been there. But it is a prejudiced attitude that builds social walls, belittles and degrades, and presupposes some higher understanding elitist mindset.
Rang true two weeks ago, and still does after reading multi takes in this thread.One of the top comments is from Matt Dillahunty (the atheist experience) and he seems to have a pretty good take on it without shitting on Islam specifically:
French police arrest Afghan man armed with knife in Lyon
PARIS — A man armed with a long knife was arrested in the southeastern French city of Lyon today as he attempted to board a tram, a source close to the inquiry tells AFP. The suspect, an Afghan national in his 20s who was dressed in a traditional Afghan outfit, had already been flagged to French intelligence services, the source says.
So you think blasphemy should become limited as well because it isn't legal to discriminate?what is free speech to Macron's or to French cuz there is always some red line no one should cross them.
Yes, it is hypocritical. But what you are leading to with this is... what? That depictions of the Muhammad and other forms of "blasphemy" should likewise be punishable by law?blasphemy !!! I am comparing Free speech ppl keep saying.... which is BS
first article about how French criminalize any activity against Israel like BDS or going after the Israel gov and was after the post-Charlie Hebdo "free speech" march in Paris.
sec one is about racist guy who use his Free speech right to mock which lead to convicted of hate crime.
I'm seeing some reports that further knife attacks were foiled in Lyon and Avignon according to some outlets on social media. Can anyone french confirm?
But what the hell does that even mean?
First off this is super fucked up and sad.
Now let's address this continued anti- religious, im not islamophobic but I hate all equally nonsense.
In the west, continued targeting of religious minorities happens. And your statement reads like an equivocation that denies the unique experiences of muslims and christians. You've also generalized the incredibly diverse theologies, cultures, and belief systems of over 4 billion people. You have claimed "religion" is in a crisis - which is nonsense. Religion is a symbolic system of control and guidelines that is constantly changed by it's adherents. It's a tool, a sociological structure. Not only that, Islam has many variations despite what a wikipedia binge would tell you. So what Islam is in crisis? What christianity for that matter? It's a nonsense statment. Your post reads like an "all lives matter" type of equivocation that denies the unique experiences and power heirarchies and privileges that people of dominant faiths enjoy in the west.
Also - I really don't think this site has an an ounce of understanding of religion vs religiosity. Around the world exists a litany of people's lives experiences with their faith. To blame a faith is meaningless. People, opportunists, are to blame. They use a peoples way of life as a tool of oppression to manipulate them. They create black and white realities when even Islam acknowledged a lot more then that in it's beliefs.
The people calling for Muslims to denounce this shit is abhorrent. Idc if you're a muslim who believes thats important. Fine - but that's some shit. To demand that a group as a whole, with as much divisions and sects as a faith must bare that burden of ownership of the violence and extremism employed by radicals who have been manipulated by disgusting opportunists seeking power and control by utilizing ones religion against them is illogical and only enables them further.
Im an atheist - and obviously extremism has no place for discussion. What's happening in france is fucked up and I hope the perpetrators will be held accountable to the fullest extent of the law. But none of this excuses this whole "fuck religion", or "fuck these outdated beliefs" attitudes that are here. We're frustrated - and I understand and empathise. I have been there. But it is a prejudiced attitude that builds social walls, belittles and degrades, and presupposes some higher understanding elitist mindset.
I've seen several posts suggesting this.
It's honestly incredibly dangerous mindset towards Muslims living in countries where they are the minority. It suggests that they have to distance themselves from what an extremist and incredibly small minority who share their faith believe and do. It also others them and questions their allegiances compared to non Muslim citizens.
I'll give my perspective as someone who has been visibly Muslim for most of my life, and lives in the UK. After a terrorist attack I would always be terrified and distraught for the same reasons as everyone else. I'm just as likely to die in a terrorist attack here. But I also had to brace myself for potential Islamophobic violence or harassment in response. And seeing comments calling innocent Muslims out only made that anxiety so much worse.
Precisely. It is wrong to expect individual Muslims to go out of their way to denounce these attacks, but it's entirely reasonable to expect Muslim leaders to do so, especially when you know that this sort of extremism is being preached in some mosques as we speak.I'm sure some of the posts or comments here and elsewhere want every Muslim to denounce the attacks but I suspect the large majority aren't calling out and expecting every single Muslim to do so. They want people that are leaders of the community, politicians, and religious leaders to do so. I'd ask why is that something for them to be avoiding just because it isn't the majority of people believing or committing these attacks? Leaders can have an effect on how people view these attacks and can push people away that were inching closer towards extremism ideology.
I'm not religious anymore but when I was I didn't feel personally responsible for whatever people were condemning Christianity for. I knew those people didn't expect me personally to condemn Christian fundamentalism or terrorism but the church and its many leaders. When people call out Canada for not speaking out against injustices in the world I don't assume they are directly asking me as a Canadian to do so. I'll add I was in a country where I wasn't a minority so maybe my views would be different had I been.
I guess what I am wondering is why shouldn't these attacks be condemned by Muslim leaders? Who else but people in positions of influence could actually reach those who might be going down the path of extremism. I'd argue that if just one person is swayed or made less susceptible to falling into the extremism ideology by having leaders of any religion or country condemning such actions then shouldn't we want them to do so even if it makes people feel responsible that in no way are?
Also - I really don't think this site has an an ounce of understanding of religion vs religiosity. Around the world exists a litany of people's lives experiences with their faith. To blame a faith is meaningless. People, opportunists, are to blame. They use a peoples way of life as a tool of oppression to manipulate them. They create black and white realities when even Islam acknowledged a lot more then that in it's beliefs.
If acknowledging that the very content of most holy books are relics from a primitive time that ... again it bears repeating in case people want to ignore it ... treat women as chattel and endorses slavery, the killing of homosexuals, people working on the sabbath, children disrespecting their parents ...etc, is now considered "elitist mindset" the bar has fallen so much it's not even funny. If the only argument is that they only got here because of a litteral reading of those texts it's not an argument for it's an indictement against those religions. And no amount of tap dancing about hermeneutics will do at this point. These are outdated beliefs but worse they are unwarranted beliefs based on texts that thrive on othering people, they are the chosen by god, the rest are sinners, they have access to truths denied to the rest of us and their unconscionable version of morality is handed down from god himself. Religious people can give me as much "we hate the sin but love the sinners" as they want that shit won't fly.Im an atheist - and obviously extremism has no place for discussion. What's happening in france is fucked up and I hope the perpetrators will be held accountable to the fullest extent of the law. But none of this excuses this whole "fuck religion", or "fuck these outdated beliefs" attitudes that are here. We're frustrated - and I understand and empathise. I have been there. But it is a prejudiced attitude that builds social walls, belittles and degrades, and presupposes some higher understanding elitist mindset.
I am with u... but not everything is "antisemitic", With the way the government of Israel tries to link any kind of accountability or criticism with being anti-Semitic is to downplay of its importance.The BDS thing is 100% bullshit, I agree, hence the fact I didn't mention it.
But Dieudonne getting condemned for being an antisemitic piece of shit? Yeah, miss me, no tears here.
Exactly.
Precisely. It is wrong to expect individual Muslims to go out of their way to denounce these attacks, but it's entirely reasonable to expect Muslim leaders to do so, especially when you know that this sort of extremism is being preached in some mosques as we speak.
French police have arrested someone in Lyon that seemed to be preparing another attack.
So you think blasphemy should become limited as well because it isn't legal to discriminate?
I never said anything about Muslim leaders. I was talking about posts in here broadly speaking about Muslims or even those who wanted to boycott France due to Macron's comments.I'm sure some of the posts or comments here and elsewhere want every Muslim to denounce the attacks but I suspect the large majority aren't calling out and expecting every single Muslim to do so. They want people that are leaders of the community, politicians, and religious leaders to do so. I'd ask why is that something for them to be avoiding just because it isn't the majority of people believing or committing these attacks? Leaders can have an effect on how people view these attacks and can push people away that were inching closer towards extremism ideology.
I'm not religious anymore but when I was I didn't feel personally responsible for whatever people were condemning Christianity for. I knew those people didn't expect me personally to condemn Christian fundamentalism or terrorism but the church and its many leaders. When people call out Canada for not speaking out against injustices in the world I don't assume they are directly asking me as a Canadian to do so. I'll add I was in a country where I wasn't a minority so maybe my views would be different had I been.
I guess what I am wondering is why shouldn't these attacks be condemned by Muslim leaders? Who else but people in positions of influence could actually reach those who might be going down the path of extremism. I'd argue that if just one person is swayed or made less susceptible to falling into the extremism ideology by having leaders of any religion or country condemning such actions then shouldn't we want them to do so even if it makes people feel responsible that in no way are?
To be clear, this is a tragedy and the people who'd kill others over just cartoons are nuts. But it also seems that people don't want to acknowledge France's persistent Islamophobia beyond the pictures that, especially, French Muslims have to struggle with. That creates and maintains tension.
IMO it's probably just an excuse for leaders like Erdogan to talk tough. If any individual wants to boycott France for any reason I'd support that, but I wouldn't take what any leader says at face value.
The same leaders will not support a boycott of China. I don't agree with France's brand of secularism and do find them at fault for their treatment of minorities. But this whole boycott business is hypocritical.
Discrimination against muslims is legal?But discrimination is already legal in France. Against muslims, that is.