Realistically, how is Microsoft expected to compete with Sony next generation? Can they?

Peek-a-boo! · Aug 9, 2020

More than ever, I just see the three companies doing their own thing:

Microsoft — offering their service(s) across multiple devices.
Nintendo — combined two platforms (handheld and home console) into one device.
Sony — a dedicated standalone system in the home.

I can see Microsoft continuing to do just fine in Anglosphere countries, and Game Pass will continue to do its own thing on the platforms it's available to play on however, outside of this, especially with how entrenched the PlayStation brand is in Asia and Europe, the Xbox Series X/S as a console doesn't really have a realistic chance to compete with Sony, nor being able to broaden its play base beyond the usual two suspects, both the US and UK respectively.

As someone who loves following and participating in various SalesEra threads, next generation isn't going to be very interesting, sales wise, due to the continued commitment not to reveal their numbers since 2014.

JoelStinty said:
This maybe a little crass, but I think they spent too much time listening to the video game community (a lot of talk of most powerful console and references to frame rates every few minutes in their showcases) and afraid of any blowback.

It feels like they're releasing a console that they think fans want rather being in control of the situation themselves. They've been doing that thing which most gaming companies do where they mention their audience all the time. I kind of want to take them by the shoulders and shake them and ask them what is what they want to actually do.

I definitely get this feeling too.

How many times have we heard the phrase, " ... for the fans" in the past couple of years?

Angie · Aug 9, 2020

Dusk Golem said:
I'm not going to say too much, but from some murmurings I've been hearing, I'll just say I suspect this topic is going to age "interestingly" when a few more details on both platforms are revealed.

I mean this in a few more ways, but to give the broadest idea, I'll just say the Xbox X is by far more powerful than the PS5 if we're just talking raw power, multi-platform games will run better on Xbox X is something people are going to have to prepare themselves for. Add to this Microsoft are ready to lowball Sony when it comes to price. They can more easily make a sacrifice and get back profits from Game Pass than console sales than Sony can from that comparatively.

So the Serie X will be cheaper?

Mahonay · Aug 9, 2020

Angie · Aug 9, 2020

Mahonay said:
Nvm.

But I do mind :P

Mahonay · Aug 9, 2020

Angie22 said:
But I do mind :P

Lmao.

Just had one of those moments where I realized my comment was adding nothing worthwhile to the discussion.

sleepr · Aug 9, 2020

Angie22 said:
So the Serie X will be cheaper?

Yes, cheaper and incredibily more powerful according to Duske Golem. At least until reality kicks in.

Genio88 · Aug 9, 2020

I think Microsoft knows that they can't compete in selling console, they know PS5 will sell more than Series X, that's why they push a lot on Game Pass and Xcloud, they want to sell their services on all the devices they can and make profit there, while still offering a console for the hardcore fans, a bit like they do on the PC market, they make the Surface which are premium Windows 10 devices, perfect to run their Office and other software, but they are not the best selling laptops overall

Angie · Aug 9, 2020

sleepr said:
Yes, cheaper and incredibily more powerful according to Duske Golem. At least until reality kicks in.

That is a really big claim. Not the powerful part, that we already knew.

Starlite · Aug 9, 2020

Personally, I really doubt power is going to matter too much, and I have doubts that we'll see any significant differences between multiplat games that will shift people's perception on which console they want.

If history has shown anything, power really doesn't matter all that much so long as the systems are at least comparable. PS4 was more powerful, sure, but it was also significantly cheaper than the Xbox One as well. It was a one-two punch that practically took Microsoft out of the running as a potential market leader before the generation even began. But even if the power quotient between Xbox One and PS4 was flipped, I don't think it would significantly change the outcome. The systems would still be comparable, and the PS4 would still be cheaper, making it the go-to option.

Sony has a lot of brand recognition and favorability worldwide, and so far hasn't made any critical errors that would upset their standing like with the PS3 or Microsoft with the Xbox One. They'll probably carry that momentum with them and maintain their standing as a market leader for this generation at least. But Microsoft has the potential to be a far more competitive player than they were this generation, especially as the new generation continues.

I think the Lockhart could be potentially disruptive to Sony's massive lead gap , considering many still don't have 4K televisions. It could make Lockhart the ideal option for many as it would be comparable to the high end PS5 or XSX on those lower-resolution TVs and significantly cheaper. This isn't taking into account the prices of the PS5 and XSX, since obviously it remains to be seen who will willingly go lower on price. Nevertheless, I think it's a safe bet that the Lockhart will be significantly cheaper than both.

As the generation goes on Microsoft will have more studios that will finally have their new games published, making Microsoft far more competitive in the exclusive space than they have been. I'm sure Microsoft isn't done buying studios, either.

Game Pass via xCloud also has potential to be very disruptive in the console space as well. If it proves to be successful, you now have a new consumer base invested in Game Pass, which could influence them to pick up an Xbox system should they choose to have a more established TV space to play games compared to their tablet or smartphone. I think this is a big reason why Sony is coughing up tons of cash for third party publishers for exclusive games and content, specifically to keep those who are currently only invested in console games connected to the PlayStation ecosystem, as that would provide less incentive to buy into Game Pass and the Xbox ecosystem later on. Sony clearly sees Microsoft has a more credible threat in this generation, otherwise they wouldn't be spending so much as has been rumored. They could easily coast on name brand alone.

Ultimately as a competitor Microsoft needs to continue and follow their on their current strategy. They have a major studio (and therefore, exclusive) defecit that they've been working to account for, but it will take a few years to see the result. Right now they need to push Game Pass as much they can as xCloud fully releases, and closely watches how successful it is. Their entire gaming ecosystem is built on it now, and what they do next is fully contingent on if Game Pass can prove to be very successful as a larger, platform-agnostic service.

DrDeckard · Aug 9, 2020

Dusk Golem said:
I'm not going to say too much, but from some murmurings I've been hearing, I'll just say I suspect this topic is going to age "interestingly" when a few more details on both platforms are revealed.

I mean this in a few more ways, but to give the broadest idea, I'll just say the Xbox X is by far more powerful than the PS5 if we're just talking raw power, multi-platform games will run better on Xbox X is something people are going to have to prepare themselves for. Add to this Microsoft are ready to lowball Sony when it comes to price. They can more easily make a sacrifice and get back profits from Game Pass than console sales than Sony can from that comparatively.

I can totally see a situation where we are wrong, it wouldn't be the first time we've missed the market on Era.

if ms is cheaper and more powerful, and games run better on series x it could make this thread very interesting to look back on.

DrDeckard · Aug 9, 2020

Dusk Golem said:
Trust me, it's not. I have no real tail in this race as I'm not planning to pick up either platform in the long-run, I'm primarily a PC gamer and pick consoles up down the line (and will end up getting both when budget and interest allows it).

PS5 is easier to develop for overall and Sony has very talented studios behind it that will get the most out of the PS5, that I have no doubts about either, but this topic is about how Microsoft will compete so what I'm focused on. But when it comes to cross-platform games, they will end up performing a lot better on Xbox X. Xbox X will have the tech advantage over PS5, and it will be more than marginable.

A lot of the time this stuff sounds fake, but it keeps being said for reason. Months ago I and others were trying to tell people the price for both consoles weren't set and both Sony and Microsoft were waiting for the other to pull the trigger before prices would be announced. Many back then said the same thing you just did, "of course they know the price of the platforms," and yes they do have a range of how low they can go and how high they think they can get away with, but here we are months later and look where we're at. Truth is stranger than fiction sometimes.

this is the kind of news I need to hear about MS, it's been a tough few weeks. I want them to remain competitive, thank you for the insight.

beast mode series X, hey!?! We have heard so much downplaying the power difference it would be really interesting to see the actual evidences of what the power difference looks like.

if ms is cheaper too. It will be some serious competition we need.

oops double post, sorry.

Silencerx98 · Aug 9, 2020

DrDeckard said:
this is the kind of news I need to hear about MS, it's been a tough few weeks. I want them to remain competitive, thank you for the insight.

beast mode series X, hey!?! We have heard so much downplaying the power difference it would be really interesting to see the actual evidences of what the power difference looks like.

if ms is cheaper too. It will be some serious competition we need.

oops double post, sorry.

Or you know, instead of jumping on the bandwagon, you could have some skepticism for information that contradicts every facts we have so far. Which by the way I'm still waiting for a reply from Dusk Golem for clarification. If it is against the rules for normal posters to spread unsubstantiated rumours without credible source, then the same should apply for mods

chris 1515 · Aug 9, 2020

AegonSnake said:
I was surprised to see that DF now has almost a million subs. I think their face/offs do matter more than we might think, and if they simply say one version is better than the other, i dont think people will care if the difference is 18% of 50%. there are also the worst case scenarios to account for, like CoD Ghosts last gen which ran at only 720p on the x1 and double the resolution on the PS4 despite only a 40% boost in tflops. RDR2 ran at native 4k on the x1x and around half the pixels on the PS4 Pro despite the fact that the difference in tflops was only 44%.

I remember Cerny pointing out how Ray tracing is very bandwidth taxing, and sony has a 25% less of it and it has to share that with their fancy new 3d audio engine. microsoft not only has 44% more CUs which is where the ray tracing hardware resides, but they also have more ram bandwidth to feed it. ray tracing should in theory scale with clocks so it should still be a 18% difference in rt performance, but i think we will definitely have games where we see worst case scenarios like cod ghosts and rdr2.

I am not saying that the Xbox winning face/offs will convince everyone to switch to the Xbox. Just pointing out that this is how MS expects to compete against sony's advantage. Despite making all new mistakes this gen, Phil has at least ensured that he has the most powerful GPU in a next gen console. Same goes for Lockhart, once again, he has ensured that he will have the least expensive console on the market. I wouldn't be surprised if Lockhart was revived last year because Sony was going out there buying up exclusives.

Besides, if Sony was so confident in the power of their console, I dont think they would go out on this spending spree. While I also dont think that the delta between the two is that massive, clearly Sony thinks its substantial enough to lock in these mega exclusives to ensure people dont jump ship.

Lastly, DF face/offs are going to be extremely interesting next gen. XSX might have better resolution, but is DF going to take into account the 3d audio enhancements or adaptive triggers in the PS5 controller? I would argue that in games like CoD knowing if a player is walking right behind you or having triggers with proper tension when pulling triggers is far more valuable than a few more pixels. But I am not sure if DF would focus on those things. They should but i dont think they will. There is also the UI enhancements which supposedly launch you straight into races from the home menu within seconds in WRC. If you could launch into a round of Warzone matchmaking right from the PS UI without even launching the game, thats going to be very appealing.

Again the problem of XB1 was the architecture and a big lack of bandwidth memory, the PS4 Pro is only the bandwidth. Here the architecture is nearly identical, the exotic one is the Series X with the two types of access.

Here memory bandwidth of PS5 is aligned with its capacity, same for Xbox Series X.

DrDeckard · Aug 9, 2020

Silencerx98 said:
Or you know, instead of jumping on the bandwagon, you could have some skepticism for information that contradicts every facts we have so far

with all the negativity recently, it's nice to hear some hope on the series x. I'm not jumping on a bandwagon, I'm just a little more excited to see how dusks Comments play out.
what facts do we Actually have over comments on the internet?
im excited to see real world compaisons, if it's nothing it's nothing But why would dusk say that stuff without some insider knowledge?

Nestunt · Aug 9, 2020

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Silencerx98 · Aug 9, 2020

DrDeckard said:
with all the negativity recently, it's nice to hear some hope on the series x. I'm not jumping on a bandwagon, I'm just a little more excited to see how dusks Comments play out.
what facts do we Actually have over comments on the internet?
im excited to see real world compaisons, if it's nothing it's nothing But why would dusk say that stuff without some insider knowledge?

What comments on the Internet? Both companies have officially revealed the crucial specs of both consoles. The 18% difference isn't some make believe number, it's from official spec sheets from Sony and Microsoft themselves. Unless you truly believe in secret sauce magic or either is hiding some powerful hardware to reveal one last gotcha moment, then this is it. Hence I'm questioning where Dusk Golem got his information that XSX is far more powerful

DixieDean82 · Aug 9, 2020

When it comes to console sales, they can't. That's a war that is over and they lost.

Which is why is smart to focus on getting more subs for GP and Gold.

sleepr · Aug 9, 2020

Silencerx98 said:
Or you know, instead of jumping on the bandwagon, you could have some skepticism for information that contradicts every facts we have so far. Which by the way I'm still waiting for a reply from Dusk Golem for clarification. If it is against the rules for normal posters to spread unsubstantiated rumours without credible source, then the same should apply for mods

He's not going to clarify anything, he's leaving himself some exit room in case things don't come to fruition. If games end performing similar he'll just say "for me it's a huge a difference" even if it's a small resolution bump or even a better framerate overall. Those types of posts are bunch of nothing.

Rocket Man · Aug 9, 2020

AegonSnake said:
Besides, if Sony was so confident in the power of their console, I dont think they would go out on this spending spree. While I also dont think that the delta between the two is that massive, clearly Sony thinks its substantial enough to lock in these mega exclusives to ensure people dont jump ship.

I dont think that's the case at all. Sony realizes the transition from the dominant PS2 --> PS3 was a disaster, especially in part due to Microsoft securing so many exclusives and content that was typically on PS consoles. It's pretty obvious they dont want to repeat that again with the PS4 to PS5 and are in turn going apeshit with the spending.

Silencerx98 · Aug 9, 2020

sleepr said:
He's not going to clarify anything, he's leaving himself some exit room in case things don't come to fruition. If games end performing similar he'll just say "for me it's a huge a difference" even if it's a small resolution bump or even a better framerate overall. Those types of posts are bunch of nothing.

This is 100% I expect to happen. Are we allowed to report mod posts that spread unsubtantiated rumours with no way to back it up?

SteviaRelievingYa · Aug 9, 2020

I can definitely see Lockhart being a game changer if it really does play the same next gen games with all the same next gen effects including ray tracing but at 1/4 the resolution of Series X and $200 cheaper. I'm in no way an expert and don't know if that's possible though.

sleepr · Aug 9, 2020

Silencerx98 said:
This is 100% I expect to happen. Are we allowed to report mod posts that spread unsubtantiated rumours with no way to back it up?

Yes you can report mods.

DrDeckard · Aug 9, 2020

Silencerx98 said:
What comments on the Internet? Both companies have officially revealed the crucial specs of both consoles. The 18% difference isn't some make believe number, it's from official spec sheets from Sony and Microsoft themselves. Unless you truly believe in secret sauce magic or either is hiding some powerful hardware to reveal one last gotcha moment, then this is it. Hence I'm questioning where Dusk Golem got his information that XSX is far more powerful

Silencerx98 said:
This is 100% I expect to happen. Are we allowed to report mod posts that spread unsubtantiated rumours with no way to back it up?

has this really upset you, if the Xbox end up being more powerful And displays more than an 18% difference in games.

yes there is an 18% difference in teraflop number when the ps5 is running at its peak frequencies...you know the teraflop numbers that everyone has said to ignore for the last 8 months as teraflops mean little in the grand scheme of things?

we know there are considerably more CUs in the Xbox, so basically what I am getting at..and want to avoid a pointless heated argument...we do not know how these consoles will compare until they are out and directly compared on resolution, effects and frame rates. So we should probably leave it.

it may just be 18 percent and nothing at all, but we will see. Dusk seems like he has heard some things. Which would be great for MS.

i feel like when anything positive comes out for Xbox, we see things like the above and your comments here where it feels, and apologies if this is not the case, that a witch hunt could start to now go after Dusk for making the comment.

Silencerx98 · Aug 9, 2020

DrDeckard said:
has this really upset you, if the Xbox end up being more powerful?

yes there is an 18% difference in teraflop number when the ps5 is running at its peak frequencies...you know the teraflop numbers that everyone has said to ignore for the last 8 months as teraflops mean little in the grand scheme of things?

we know there are considerably more CUs in the Xbox, so basically what I am getting at..and want to avoid a pointless heated argument...we do not know how these consoles will compare until they are out and directly compared on resolution, effects and frame rates.

it may just be 18 percent and nothing at all, but we will see. Dusk seems like he has heard some things. Which would be great for MS.

Oh, I'm not personally offended, you can see my posts in the past few pages. I'm more interested in the hardware differences itself and where each shine. I also believe that everyone should abide by forum rules, even moderators therefore calling such questionable posts to take some accountability is fair, no? XSX is objectively the more powerful console overall, no one in the right mind would deny that. But hey, nice to bring up peak frequencies, I guess believing PS5 is normally a 9TFlops machine also fills the secret sauce BS in the other direction. My intention is not to console war, but I would love to know more about this supposed insider info we don't know about. If someone said PS5 has super secret RDNA3 tech and/or the cache scrubbers and coprocessor in the SSD will make up for the GPU gap, I would similarly question it

And regarding your edit, I'm not so petty as to start a witch hunt, but I do think people in the know should answer for contradictory information. Or should we exempt them when what they say suits our needs?

VaanXSnake · Aug 9, 2020

They don't but they're trying something else with gamepass and that's fine.

Hermii · Aug 9, 2020

Silencerx98 said:
What comments on the Internet? Both companies have officially revealed the crucial specs of both consoles. The 18% difference isn't some make believe number, it's from official spec sheets from Sony and Microsoft themselves. Unless you truly believe in secret sauce magic or either is hiding some powerful hardware to reveal one last gotcha moment, then this is it. Hence I'm questioning where Dusk Golem got his information that XSX is far more powerful

For me it comes down to variable clock speed vs sustained. I know Cerny have said it's a non issue, but as they say the proof is in the pudding.

Silencerx98 · Aug 9, 2020

Hermii said:
For me it comes down to variable clock speed vs sustained. I know Cerny have said it's a non issue, but as they say the proof is in the pudding.

I mean, if you're going to start doubting official spec reveals, we might as well question everything until we get benchmarks. Are both consoles really using Zen 3 CPU's? Do both consoles really have 16GB GDDR6 RAM?

DrDeckard · Aug 9, 2020

Silencerx98 said:
Oh, I'm not personally offended, you can see my posts in the past few pages. I'm more interested in the hardware differences itself and where each shine. I also believe that everyone should abide by forum rules, even moderators therefore calling such questionable posts to take some accountability is fair, no? XSX is objectively the more powerful console overall, no one in the right mind would deny that. But hey, nice to bring up peak frequencies, I guess believing PS5 is normally a 9TFlops machine also fills the secret sauce BS in the other direction. My intention is not to console war, but I would love to know more about this supposed insider info we don't know about.

all I am purely trying to point out is that one console has variable frequencies and the other doesn't, we have no idea what the peak performance of either console is until they are out and games are directly compared.

i am primarily a pc gamer and for years I know that when you look at a GPUs the higher end cards are usually clocked frequency wise lower than cards Further down the stack. Take a 2080Ti vs a 2080 for example. The 2080 will be clocked at a higher frequency than the ti but the ti has more cores and memory bandwidth and thus beats the 2080 in performance.

we Know the series x has both more cores and more memory bandwidth, so my logical brain with GPUs leans towards that gpu probably displaying more performance? But then I could be completely wrong and it is literally flat 18 % of a teraflop number difference....which seems an odd argument after all the teraflops don't matter convo...I dunno. Lol

takriel · Aug 9, 2020

Silencerx98 said:
Oh, I'm not personally offended, you can see my posts in the past few pages. I'm more interested in the hardware differences itself and where each shine. I also believe that everyone should abide by forum rules, even moderators therefore calling such questionable posts to take some accountability is fair, no? XSX is objectively the more powerful console overall, no one in the right mind would deny that. But hey, nice to bring up peak frequencies, I guess believing PS5 is normally a 9TFlops machine also fills the secret sauce BS in the other direction. My intention is not to console war, but I would love to know more about this supposed insider info we don't know about. If someone said PS5 has super secret RDNA3 tech and/or the cache scrubbers and coprocessor in the SSD will make up for the GPU gap, I would similarly question it

And regarding your edit, I'm not so petty as to start a witch hunt, but I do think people in the know should answer for contradictory information. Or should we exempt them when what they say suits our needs?

Considering your post history, your postings do come off as concern trolling here.

Mr.Deadshot · Aug 9, 2020

Same way like Nintendo did: They are trying to find their own niche and model that works out best for them. Sony, Nintendo and MS are all following very different strategies now and that's kinda cool because the offers are more unique than ever. Just compare that to PS2 times where every platform was basically the same hence some performance differences. Nintendo pulled out first with the Wii, now MS try its own thing with services. Feels like Sony is the last one focusing on a "classic" next gen console experience.

Silencerx98 · Aug 9, 2020

DrDeckard said:
all I am purely trying to point out is that one console has variable frequencies and the other doesn't, we have no idea what the peak performance of either console is until they are out and games are directly compared.

i am primarily a pc gamer and for years I know that when you look at a GPUs the higher end cards are usually clocked frequency wise lower than cards Further down the stack. Take a 2080Ti vs a 2080 for example. The 2080 will be clocked at a higher frequency than the ti but the ti has more cores and memory bandwidth and thus beats the 2080 in performance.

we Know the series x has both more cores and more memory bandwidth, so my logical brain with GPUs leans towards that gpu probably displaying more performance? But then I could be completely wrong and it is literally flat 18 % of a teraflop number difference....which seems an odd argument after all the teraflops don't matter convo...I dunno. Lol

You can expect 15-25% differences in GPU workloads between the PS5 and XSX on average, yes. Maybe sometimes even 30% in favour of XSX if PS5 GPU downclocks and is severely bottlenecked in compute performance. No one is denying that. What I am calling into question is the "far more powerful" statement. Is the hypothetical 30% "far more powerful"? Debatable, but most would disagree since the gap between PS4 and XB1 was larger. Would a difference between 1800p and native 2160p count? Most would disagree there too

takriel said:
Considering your post history, your postings do come off as concern trolling here.

Oh? Do enlighten me on which posts I made looked like concern trolling. Better yet, please report to the mods if you find them problematic. I've been in next gen speculation threads for over a year now because I have a huge interest in graphics tech. God forbid I ask for clarification on a questionable statement

Hermii · Aug 9, 2020

Silencerx98 said:
I mean, if you're going to start doubting official spec reveals, we might as well question everything until we get benchmarks. Are both consoles really using Zen 3 CPU's? Do both consoles really have 16GB GDDR6 RAM?

Variable vs sustained is an official spec reveal.

I don't expect Cerny to be completely objective about the advantages of faster cus vs more, as well as sustained vs variable frequencies.

DrDeckard · Aug 9, 2020

Silencerx98 said:
You can expect 15-25% differences in GPU workloads between the PS5 and XSX on average, yes. Maybe sometimes even 30% in favour of XSX if PS5 GPU downclocks and is severely bottlenecked in compute performance. No one is denying that. What I am calling into question is the "far more powerful" statement. Is the hypothetical 30% "far more powerful"? Debatable, but most would disagree since the gap between PS4 and XB1 was larger. Would a difference between 1800p and native 2160p count? Most would disagree there too

Oh? Do enlighten me on which posts I made looked like concern trolling. Better yet, please report to the mods if you find them problematic

if the series x Displayed a 30% advantage and say hypothetically cost less than the ps5...I would consider 30% far more powerful for price, just like I did with the PS4.

i Think most people consider the 2080Ti to be far more powerful than a 2080 but I don't even think it's 30%

Silencerx98 · Aug 9, 2020

DrDeckard said:
if the series x Displayed a 30% advantage and say hypothetically cost less than the ps5...I would consider 30% far more powerful for price, just like I did with the PS4.

Sure, but based on what we know of the BoM, XSX is supposedly $70 more expensive. It is still possible Microsoft is willing to take a bigger hit on hardware but that's why a few others and I have questioned that statement. Could the BoM figures be incorrect and PS5 is actually significantly more expensive instead? Of course! But that's why I'm asking for receipts

Deleted member 923 · Aug 9, 2020

In terms of hardware sales or market share they can't really, but I don't think it really matters. They're doing their own thing with Gamepass, cloud gaming, and embracing the PC platform so they'll make bank in areas where Sony and Nintendo aren't or won't.

DrDeckard · Aug 9, 2020

Silencerx98 said:
Sure, but based on what we know of the BoM, XSX is supposedly $70 more expensive. It is still possible Microsoft is willing to take a bigger hit on hardware but that's why a few others and I have questioned that statement. Could the BoM figures be incorrect and PS5 is actually significantly more expensive instead? Of course! But that's why I'm asking for receipts

maybe ms are willing to invest the money, that in comparison Sony are using on exclusive third party content and games into the price of the box?

Dusk Golem · Aug 9, 2020

Silencerx98 said:
Or you know, instead of jumping on the bandwagon, you could have some skepticism for information that contradicts every facts we have so far. Which by the way I'm still waiting for a reply from Dusk Golem for clarification. If it is against the rules for normal posters to spread unsubstantiated rumours without credible source, then the same should apply for mods

I was away doing stuff until recently, but just a few friends I have in the industry working on games for both platforms and a few other insiders I know. More than one source. The basic gist of what I've heard is the PS5 is really good to work on for games exclusive to it, but in practice the specs kinda' get weird for multi-platform games. If multi-plat the usage of PS5's SSD systems does help a bit, but not to the fullest, and I've heard some dev friends talk a bit about the struggle PS5 has for 1080p games running 60fps still, while Xbox X doesn't have the same problem and can push above that even in most cases. Of course, this is a small selection of people I've talked to, there's more to it, but I hear something that's going to make this generation a bit interesting is the PS5 & Xbox X's focus in other areas are going to make multi-platform games "interesting" this generation, to the point we may actually see less of them and far more games coming to one platform or the other (plus PC), as it's actually kinda' hard to make a game optimal for both platforms due to where they're a bit differently focused.

But again, this is coming from the small pool of developers I've heard this from, there may be unique challenges to the games they're specifically making in this area and that isn't lost on me.

That said, I am going to dip on this as I just like sharing a bit of what I hear, I'm not super invested, but I knew something I could share could make this discussion a bit more interesting to where current feelings lie. I can promise you I'm not saying this based off of nothing, There's probably more on the tech side specifics I'm spacing on here/don't fully understand myself, if I'll be honest. But things will be reflective here when both consoles are out and multi-platform games are out there.

Silencerx98 · Aug 9, 2020

DrDeckard said:
maybe ms are willing to invest the money, that in comparison Sony are using on exclusive third party content and games into the price of the box?

Yeah, sure, I can see that, but Dusk Golem has chosen to not give a good explanation and has since bailed

Edit: Oof, that timing

Dusk Golem said:
I was away doing stuff until recently, but just a few friends I have in the industry working on games for both platforms and a few other insiders I know. More than one source. The basic gist of what I've heard is the PS5 is really good to work on for games exclusive to it, but in practice the specs kinda' get weird for multi-platform games. If multi-plat the usage of PS5's SSD systems does help a bit, but not to the fullest, and I've heard some dev friends talk a bit about the struggle PS5 has for 1080p games running 60fps still, while Xbox X doesn't have the same problem and can push above that even in most cases. Of course, this is a small selection of people I've talked to, there's more to it, but I hear something that's going to make this generation a bit interesting is the PS5 & Xbox One's focus in other areas are going to make multi-platform games "interesting" this generation, to the point we may actually see less of them and far more games coming to one platform or the other (plus PC), as it's actually kinda' hard to make a game optimal for both platforms due to where they're a bit differently focused.

But again, this is coming from the small pool of developers I've heard this from, there may be unique challenges to the games they're specifically making in this area and that isn't lost on me.

That said, I am going to dip on this as I just like sharing a bit of what I hear, I'm not super invested, but I knew something I could share could make this discussion a bit more interesting to where current feelings lie. I can promise you I'm not saying this based off of nothing, There's probably more on the tech side specifics I'm spacing on here/don't fully understand myself, if I'll be honest. But things will be reflective here when both consoles are out and multi-platform games are out there.

Thank you for responding. Is there anything more you could share about why the PS5 struggles at 1080p 60FPS while XSX doesn't? Have any of your sources said that the GPU gap is larger than the spec sheets would imply? Why would such devs struggle with 1080p 60FPS when Deathloop and GT7 run at native 4K 60FPS? Both even supposedly have ray tracing on top. Furthermore, Matt also asked why you would say this earlier, implying he didn't hear the same story.

plow · Aug 9, 2020

I watch DF Videos regularly and browse this forum pretty often. Even if i look for the differences i can't se any between 1800P and 2160P. ( Neither between 900P and 1080).

I can't see how the regular User would see any differences between this. The Series X has a lot of selling points. Being more powerful than the PS5 isn't one. There is a reason regular Consoles sold a lot more than the Pro Versions. There is a reason the XR is the best selling Iphone to date and not the Pro max.

Regular Users want the best Package, not necessarily the strongest. And best Package includes Games, Deals, Exclusivity, BC etc.

DrDeckard · Aug 9, 2020

plow said:
I watch DF Videos regularly and browse this forum pretty often. Even if i look for the differences i can't se any between 1800P and 2160P. ( Neither between 900P and 1080).

I can't see how the regular User would see any differences between this. The Series X has a lot of selling points. Being more powerful than the PS5 isn't one. There is a reason regular Consoles sold a lot more than the Pro Versions. There is a reason the XR is the best selling Iphone to date and not the Pro max.

Regular Users want the best Package, not necessarily the strongest. And best Package includes Games, Deals, Exclusivity, BC etc.

it might not be a selling point to you, but to others it might :) I can bet that those who buy high end gear, want the high end box to go with it.

yes the mainstream will with The cheapest option. Now imagine if that is the series x :O and it is the most powerful.

this could help ms compete.

plow · Aug 9, 2020

Dusk Golem said:
I was away doing stuff until recently, but just a few friends I have in the industry working on games for both platforms and a few other insiders I know. More than one source. The basic gist of what I've heard is the PS5 is really good to work on for games exclusive to it, but in practice the specs kinda' get weird for multi-platform games. If multi-plat the usage of PS5's SSD systems does help a bit, but not to the fullest, and I've heard some dev friends talk a bit about the struggle PS5 has for 1080p games running 60fps still, while Xbox X doesn't have the same problem and can push above that even in most cases. Of course, this is a small selection of people I've talked to, there's more to it, but I hear something that's going to make this generation a bit interesting is the PS5 & Xbox X's focus in other areas are going to make multi-platform games "interesting" this generation, to the point we may actually see less of them and far more games coming to one platform or the other (plus PC), as it's actually kinda' hard to make a game optimal for both platforms due to where they're a bit differently focused.

But again, this is coming from the small pool of developers I've heard this from, there may be unique challenges to the games they're specifically making in this area and that isn't lost on me.

That said, I am going to dip on this as I just like sharing a bit of what I hear, I'm not super invested, but I knew something I could share could make this discussion a bit more interesting to where current feelings lie. I can promise you I'm not saying this based off of nothing, There's probably more on the tech side specifics I'm spacing on here/don't fully understand myself, if I'll be honest. But things will be reflective here when both consoles are out and multi-platform games are out there.

Not to contradict you, because i know shit about specs. But hasn't Matt said, that there will be virtually no differences? Your post contradict his post. I mean it could possibly be, that you just have different Sources for your claims. Curious how this turns out.

sleepr · Aug 9, 2020

Dusk Golem said:
I was away doing stuff until recently, but just a few friends I have in the industry working on games for both platforms and a few other insiders I know. More than one source. The basic gist of what I've heard is the PS5 is really good to work on for games exclusive to it, but in practice the specs kinda' get weird for multi-platform games. If multi-plat the usage of PS5's SSD systems does help a bit, but not to the fullest, and I've heard some dev friends talk a bit about the struggle PS5 has for 1080p games running 60fps still, while Xbox X doesn't have the same problem and can push above that even in most cases. Of course, this is a small selection of people I've talked to, there's more to it, but I hear something that's going to make this generation a bit interesting is the PS5 & Xbox One's focus in other areas are going to make multi-platform games "interesting" this generation, to the point we may actually see less of them and far more games coming to one platform or the other (plus PC), as it's actually kinda' hard to make a game optimal for both platforms due to where they're a bit differently focused.

But again, this is coming from the small pool of developers I've heard this from, there may be unique challenges to the games they're specifically making in this area and that isn't lost on me.

That said, I am going to dip on this as I just like sharing a bit of what I hear, I'm not super invested, but I knew something I could share could make this discussion a bit more interesting to where current feelings lie. I can promise you I'm not saying this based off of nothing, There's probably more on the tech side specifics I'm spacing on here/don't fully understand myself, if I'll be honest. But things will be reflective here when both consoles are out and multi-platform games are out there.

1080p 60 FPS games are struggling to run on PS5? How do you explain that some games already have a 120 FPS modes and also spiderman having a 4K60 mode?

Matt can you confirm what dusk is saying?

plow · Aug 9, 2020

DrDeckard said:
it might not be a selling point to you, but to others it might :) I can bet that those who buy high end gear, want the high end box to go with it.

yes the mainstream will with The cheapest option. Now imagine if that is the series x :O and it is the most powerful.

this could help ms compete.

Has nothing to do with me. It's what history has shown and is still showing. Neither the Pro nor the X is the best selling Console right now ( Actually at the moment it's the worst perfoming Next gen console out there, that is outperformin anyone right now ).
If th emajority of users would care about power so much, wouldn't we see it in the Sales of these consoles?

Where do you see the Series X? At 299? If the PS5D launches at 399, the X has to be 299. That's a 170$ loss on BOM alone. I don't see how you can explain to your shareholders that you will loose 200$ on every console sold, while you try to push a Service that isn't really making profit right now. Add to that, that this does not really relate to MS strategy of ( Play everywhere ) at all, because if you sell a console at 200$, you want to sell that damn thing. Majority/Many MS Studio games going Xbox One too for the next year, shows that MS does not really care if you buy the Series X. So why sell it at loss?

Hermii · Aug 9, 2020

sleepr said:
1080p 60 FPS games are struggling to run on PS5? How do you explain that some games already have a 120 FPS modes and also spiderman having a 4K60 mode?

Matt can you confirm what dusk is saying?

Depends where the particular bottleneck on the particular game lies I suppose.

CarlSagan94 · Aug 9, 2020

I honestly think they can't purely based on the fact that Microsoft is now following a hybrid approach between PC and Xbox. The fact that their exclusives are now all releasing on PC dramatically lowers the pressure to purchase an Xbox to have access to their content. I think Microsoft is now less interested in selling Xbox but more interested in selling their services, game pass and Xcloud, and Xbox is now just one way to access their content. So in the pure console sales battle, I believe Sony won't be challenged by Xbox anymore and its supremacy could only be rivaled by a Nintendo console. Indeed, both consoles have high quality and extremely popular exclusives (look at the crazy software sales on the Switch) that can only be accessed through their hardware. The big advantage that Sony has over Nintendo however are the third party games that will take advantage of the better hardware and will therefore often skip Nintendo hardware. So overall I predict that next gen, Ps5 will remain at the top, Switch/Switch 2 (Nintendo would be insane to move away from their hybrid concept, but then again...), and Xbox at the bottom.

Honestly I think what Microsoft is doing is awesome and very pro consumer, since I won't have to purchase their hardware to play their games, but it comes at the cost of ensuring PlayStation as the leading console.

sleepr · Aug 9, 2020

Hermii said:
Depends where the particular bottleneck on the particular game lies I suppose.

I guess every game shown on PS5 Showcase didn't had bottlenecks then since they were running at 4K30 or 4K60. Yes, 1st and 3rd party.

JoJoBae · Aug 9, 2020

Hermii said:
Depends where the particular bottleneck on the particular game lies I suppose.

See: Horizon on PC having a GPU memory bandwidth bottleneck, for a recent example of a game you would think would run great on powerful hardware. Stuff can get weird. I don't expect whatever game in Dusk's example to actually launch struggling to hit 1080p60, but different engines/games have different struggles at first on new hardware.

Alexandros · Aug 9, 2020

sleepr said:
1080p 60 FPS games are struggling to run on PS5? How do you explain that some games already have a 120 FPS modes and also spiderman having a 4K60 mode?

Matt can you confirm what dusk is saying?

In such cases you want to be comparing apples to apples, meaning the same game on both platforms. Asking why a game might have issues running at 60 fps while another runs at 120 fps really makes no sense.

Silencerx98 · Aug 9, 2020

Alexandros said:
In such cases you want to be comparing apples to apples, meaning the same game on both platforms. Asking why a game might have issues running at 60 fps while another runs at 120 fps really makes no sense.

I agree with this notion. Therefore I further ask Dusk, what is the resolution the devs are able to hit on XSX. If it were something like native 1300p (weird resolution but just an example) against 1080p, then that's fair game. That accurately fits the GPU power discrepancy. But if it somehow runs at 1440p on XSX, then surely something must have gone wrong in the optimization pipeline. Of course, the game may still be in very early stages, however. There are rare instances like MGSV Ground Zeroes where XB1 version ran at 720p against 1080p on PS4 but that was due to the split memory architecture if I recall and The Phantom Pain was able to bump resolution on XB1 to 900p. From what we know so far, PS5 should have no such bottlenecks, but Dusk is suggesting otherwise

sleepr · Aug 9, 2020

Alexandros said:
In such cases you want to be comparing apples to apples, meaning the same game on both platforms. Asking why a game might have issues running at 60 fps while another runs at 120 fps really makes no sense.

If most devs aren't having trouble running their games at 4K then there is no reason why PS5 should be struggling with 1080p 60 FPS. That's a fact.
Another fact would be that we know some games i.e Dirt 5 and Destiny 2 will have 4K60 and 120 modes on both consoles.
This is a bunch of bolloks talk until shown some receipts.

Realistically, how is Microsoft expected to compete with Sony next generation? Can they?

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