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Fahdi

Member
Jun 5, 2018
1,390
I have no idea about copyright laws on this or if this is a stupid question but...

Do I not have the right to access my games through a remote computer? I've already bought the game to show my sincere support to your product and just paying Nvidia to access them through a storefront by streaming.

Is this about you guys needing a piece of the pie? Am I just buying a license or an actual product on the storefronts? What do I own?

Educate me. Because going forward, this does NOT look healthy for consumers. This should be a concern for all of you, even console gamers on how you can access your games.
 
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Arkaign

Member
Nov 25, 2017
1,991
To expand somewhat, this is above the pay grade of most people who would identify as 'Devs', and more of a corporate 'suit' / legal team question.
 

Landford

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,678
Some people will answer that its because they want to curate the experience their players have while playing their games.

The truth will actually be that they are hoping that some other Stream service pay them so they can let you play the games that you already bought.
 
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Fahdi

Fahdi

Member
Jun 5, 2018
1,390
To expand somewhat, this is above the pay grade of most people who would identify as 'Devs', and more of a corporate 'suit' / legal team question.

Can a mod or someone then upgrade the Thread Title? I don't know who else to ask but this is seriously anti-consumer and if Devs aren't involved to be blamed.
 

udivision

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,038
I'd have to imagine it has to do with not being told about it before hand and the financial potential.
 

WarMacheen

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,559
Probably a mix of, we want our own service with subscription and we aren't getting additional revenue from Nvidia
 

Arkaign

Member
Nov 25, 2017
1,991
Can a mod or someone then upgrade the Thread Title? I don't know who else to ask but this is seriously anti-consumer and if Devs aren't involved to be blamed.

Yeah it's a tough one. The kind of devs who DO have that kind of say are either one-person or very small (self publishing) outfits. The bigger studio devs don't have the authority to make anything like that kind of call even if they're personally in favor of it or neutral on the subject. I believe most probably are actually in favor of GFN : it opens the audience up to a wider potential that may otherwise not have a device to play the game at all, and you MUST be a customer already of the game to play it on GFN, and zero extra coding/compatibility/patch work is required. Win/win/win. Only downside is 'suits' potentially scamming more money from moneyhat stream outfits.

And these "suit" type boardroom execs and lawyers are the last people on earth to care about games or come to Era.
 

Sei

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,740
LA
In the perfect world, where cloud computing enables all devices to play PC games. You would expect Devs to be happier, with less development time porting, and greater potential sale base.

Is it really all about getting a small part of a small pie right now?
 
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Fahdi

Fahdi

Member
Jun 5, 2018
1,390
Yeah it's a tough one. The kind of devs who DO have that kind of say are either one-person or very small (self publishing) outfits. The bigger studio devs don't have the authority to make anything like that kind of call even if they're personally in favor of it or neutral on the subject. I believe most probably are actually in favor of GFN : it opens the audience up to a wider potential that may otherwise not have a device to play the game at all, and you MUST be a customer already of the game to play it on GFN, and zero extra coding/compatibility/patch work is required. Win/win/win. Only downside is 'suits' potentially scamming more money from moneyhat stream outfits.

I believe your post and the one below by Sei make alot of sense, probably infact are the truth. But we still need to know why the fuck this is happening. I just checked the official thread and 2K pulled out as well. I am pretty disappointed. The service is amazing.
 

RedOnePunch

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,628
I don't think it's as simple as an issue with accessing your games through a remote computer since you can already do that via steam with your own computer.
 

Lant_War

Classic Anus Game
Banned
Jul 14, 2018
23,601
If you want to play Red Dead Redemption 2 on the cloud right now you have to get it on Stadia. You have to buy the game again, so you're effectively double dipping and giving the publisher money twice. GeForce Now only gives them revenue once, as you don't have to pay again.
 

5taquitos

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,921
OR
If you want to play Red Dead Redemption 2 on the cloud right now you have to get it on Stadia. You have to buy the game again, so you're effectively double dipping and giving the publisher money twice. GeForce Now only gives them revenue once, as you don't have to pay again.
But it takes dev resources to port it to Stadia. It requires zero dev resources to use GFN.
 

Deleted member 18944

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,944
I have no idea about copyright laws on this or if this is a stupid question but...

Do I not have the right to access my games through a remote computer? I've already bought the game to show my sincere support to your product and just paying Nvidia to access them through a storefront by streaming.

Is this about you guys needing a piece of the pie? Am I just buying a license or an actual product on the storefronts? What do I own?

Educate me.

I'm not going to debate the morality of it, but from the information I've consumed from devs commenting on it and lawyers giving a TLDR of this stuff:

Reasons:

a. Artistic control of the product

b. distribution agreement concerns

c. the service violates EULAs

d. said publisher has its own service in the works and would rather use that

e. all of the above

Also - The idea that the decision making of whether or not you can access your game from the service being one of ONLY money is total shit. There's nuance involved here that people are not going to want or care to consider. That doesn't mean that they didn't do it in part for money, but its not the only reason.

And before someone tells me that developers and publishers don't control where you can play your game, they do. Your game is license it is not technically owned by you. As Steam puts it in their EULAs, you are buying essentially subscription to the content that is non-exclusive and limited.

Here's Nvidia confirming that publishers (aka the rights holder of the IP) can control if the game exists on GeForce Now

For developers, we used our beta phase to show how GeForce NOW could expand a game's audience to low-end PC laptops, Mac computers, Android devices and, soon, to Chromebooks, without any porting effort.

For publishers, we connected gamers directly to game stores, so they maintain control of their content and we stay out of their economics.

Source

And if you don't want to take my word for it, here's Hoeg Law's take on the matter. They are licensed to practice in Michigan.

"As you know, a developer owns the copyright to their game, and they don't lose the rights associated with that copyright when they license their game to a 'buyer,'" Hoeg continued. "And games are, in general, licensed and not sold, with terms related to that license applied to the 'buyer.' Most of these are known or otherwise non-controversial ('you won't reverse engineer this product,' 'you won't use it to post speech we find hateful.' But some are probably less well known. Most licenses are going to say (some version of) 'you have the right to play a single copy of the game on a personal computer/system in your control' and you can't use your copy for "commercial access, use your copy to run an arcade, etc.' So in this case, the Long Dark folks (and probably Steam, GoG, Epic above that too) have similar language in their EULAs, and Nvidia probably should have gotten permission."

Source

Here's the video where they also dive into it.

 

Lork

Member
Oct 25, 2017
844
You're not going to get an answer from the actual decision makers, but the motivation is pretty simple.

They see an opportunity to demand a cut from service providers like NVIDIA. To allow their games on the service without an explicit deal is to pass up on that opportunity.
 
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Fahdi

Fahdi

Member
Jun 5, 2018
1,390
I don't think it's as simple as an issue with accessing your games through a remote computer since you can already do that via steam with your own computer.

What's the problem then? Let's say someone doesn't own a computer and still buys games through Steam. You still bought the game, is there a reason they can't access this game anywhere else?

I can't take my PC on the go to another State. But with this I have access all the time. Its just more mobility and access for the consumer.

You're still paying for an nVidia or AMD GPU to play your games for a premium locally. I'm glad someone thought about a service like this.
 

Dreamwriter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,461
In part it really is a copyright issue. nVidia is distributing games without the developer's permission, and profiting from them without sharing the profits. It's also a licensing issue - these days there are separate licenses for physical, digital, and streaming. And not just from the publisher - a voice actor or composer can have different licenses for the use of their works for the different distribution types, for example. And I wouldn't be surprised if there are streaming exclusivity contracts that we don't know about.

Note, it's not just big publishers pulling their games, some indie developers have pulled their games as well, because of nVidia profiting from their content without their permission.
 
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Fahdi

Fahdi

Member
Jun 5, 2018
1,390
In part it really is a copyright issue. nVidia is distributing games without the developer's permission, and profiting from them without sharing the profits. It's also a licensing issue - these days there are separate licenses for physical, digital, and streaming. And not just from the publisher - a voice actor or composer can have different licenses for the use of their works for the different distribution types, for example. And I wouldn't be surprised if there are streaming exclusivity contracts that we don't know about.

Note, it's not just big publishers pulling their games, some indie developers have pulled their games as well, because of nVidia profiting from their content without their permission.

"nVidia profiting from their content" when you say it like that it does sound bad. This whole situation is iffy.

Hobbes thanks for your input.
 

funky

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,527
Nvidia is..

Distributing games without asking permission.
Streaming games which is probably not a way some developers want their game experienced.
Potentially creating issues for customers and developers due to how DRM and licencing works.
Potentially creating support issues for the developers as customers submit issues related to their experience streaming on Geforce Now.
And the big one. Nvidia are doing all this without paying a cent to a game dev.
 

Sarcastico

Member
Oct 27, 2017
774
In part it really is a copyright issue. nVidia is distributing games without the developer's permission. It's also a licensing issue - these days there are separate licenses for physical, digital, and streaming. And not just from the publisher - a voice actor or composer can have different licenses for the use of their works for the different distribution types, for example. And I wouldn't be surprised if there are streaming exclusivity contracts that we don't know about.

Why does it count as distributing when nvidia aren't even selling any games?
 
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Fahdi

Fahdi

Member
Jun 5, 2018
1,390
"we're glad you asked this question, here at DevCorp we love making games and we love engaging our fans to deliver the experiences they've come to associate with DevCorp. As a result we make sure that we work with our partners to deliver the best experience possible. While we're long time fans of Nvidia, unfortunately we haven't had the opportunity to work out how to best meet our fans' needs and expectations. We're always talking to companies to see how we can give everyone the best experience possible, but don't be disappointed! We've signed up for ShitStream, the top new service from DataMineCorp, where you can enjoy our content wherever and whenever you want to game. Please check out their service plans that we get a cut of but don't stop buying our games either. Remember, our top fans double and triple dip and buy our season passes blindly!"

🤣🤣🤣 hahahaha what the fuck. This was great.
 

Deleted member 18944

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,944
Why does it count as distributing when nvidia aren't even selling any games?

Because technically they are selling access to your own library of games, and additionally, as I pointed out above, that most likely violates the agreement with Steam the dev might have, and the EULA that you signed for both Steam AND for the game (if it has a specific one).
 

Ales34

Member
Apr 15, 2018
6,455
In part it really is a copyright issue. nVidia is distributing games without the developer's permission, and profiting from them without sharing the profits. It's also a licensing issue - these days there are separate licenses for physical, digital, and streaming. And not just from the publisher - a voice actor or composer can have different licenses for the use of their works for the different distribution types, for example. And I wouldn't be surprised if there are streaming exclusivity contracts that we don't know about.

Note, it's not just big publishers pulling their games, some indie developers have pulled their games as well, because of nVidia profiting from their content without their permission.
Exactly.
It's not like Nvidia is unfamiliar with the issue. They have no problem forbidding their GPUs from being used in a manner they weren't intended for.

Just recently Nvidia's updated their EULA to ban the use of gamer-oriented GPUs in data centers.
Nvidia has banned the use of its consumer-grade GPUs in data centers, the Register reported. This decision forces organizations to pay for the more expensive chips such as the Tesla V100. The GPU company updated the license agreements of its Titan and GeForce software to reflect this change.
"No Datacenter Deployment," the updated agreement reads. "The SOFTWARE is not licensed for datacenter deployment, except that blockchain processing in a datacenter is permitted."

It's the same thing here. This is a licensing issue as well as a copyright issue. Your license for the game doesn't give Nvidia the right to stream the game to you and profit from it. They'll need a separate agreement with the publisher for it--that they don't have.
 

Sarcastico

Member
Oct 27, 2017
774
Because technically they are selling access to your own library of games, and additionally, as I pointed out above, that most likely violates the agreement with Steam the dev might have, and the EULA that you signed for both Steam AND for the game (if it has a specific one).

No they're not? If I stop subscribing to Geforce Now I won't lose access to my library. That's like saying Dell is selling you access to your games...

I've read your previous post. The part about consumers just purchasing a license is depressing.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
At least Xbox has this covered.
Why would it be different for Microsoft? xCloud is doing exactly the same thing, you're just streaming your previously purchased games on an Xbox instead of a PC. Microsoft will need to pay to get a streaming license as well, the only thing they can allow without the publishers agreement is making their own games streamable.
 

Gray clouds

Member
Nov 7, 2017
465
You're more likely to get an answer from a journalist like jschreier. Hopefully someone is going to make it clear whats going on.

Personally, I think it's about publisher's entering the field with their own streaming solutions. Maybe they are pulling out now so you don't get comfortable on someone else's platform. I don't think they are going to allow for a single dominant streaming solution, like Steam is for digital games.
 

Rosé Fighter

Alt Account
Banned
Aug 23, 2019
837
it's complicated

it's like

It's locking a game you own behind a paid wall. But there is no cut to the dev. Now the whole point of GeForce Now is for you to access the games you own anywhere. So while they don't directly advertise it, they are profiting off devs games without their consent. IE I can play say, Witcher 3 anywhere. Now, the service itself isn't explicit in advertising W3, but it's still available to play behind the paywall.

It's definitely a murky legal area.

To add an analogy, it's like if you brought a DVD, and then you paid me to watch the DVD anywhere. Movie studios wouldn't be happy that I'm giving you access to their movie in any format anywhere. Even though you own the movie, I'm the one making the money off this feature.
 

Aztechnology

Community Resettler
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
14,154
This seems mostly like situation of theoreticals. These companies are trying to preserve their rights for the option to do similiar things in the future and or looking for pay options.
 
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LilScooby77

Member
Dec 11, 2019
11,174
Why would it be different for Microsoft? xCloud is doing exactly the same thing, you're just streaming your previously purchased games on an Xbox instead of a PC. Microsoft will need to pay to get a streaming license as well, the only thing they can allow without the publishers agreement is making their own games streamable.
All games we own are streamable no? I'm not trying to debate here like you are for some reason.
 

Fugu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,746
I imagine that this is being caused in part by uncertainty/anxiety about the legal implications of permitting this. I am having a tough time sussing out what legal implications for developers/publishers there are for this service existing, but I suppose I could understand smaller organizations not having the resources to come to this conclusion themselves. For instance, the fact that using this might violate the EULA is irrelevant: While it may create some kind of contract liability for the user (because you violated the license), it has no implications for the developer/publisher because there's nothing in that agreement that says they have to prevent you from being able to violate the EULA. Similarly, NVidia didn't agree to the EULA and is therefore doing nothing wrong by providing a conduit through which users can violate their EULAs. I think it's possible that some agreement exists between publishers and distributors that says they need to be proactive about these types of things, but I'm no industry insider so it's tough for me to say.

Incidentally, I think that legal uncertainty also gives developers/publishers a convenient excuse to pull their games from this service out of pure greed without making it seem that way. They can conjure some bullshit about how they had to do it or whatever and even though that may be totally false there'll be no one to hold their feet to the fire.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
All games we own are streamable no? I'm not trying to debate here like you are for some reason.
I don't see why they would be that. In that case MS must've put that into the license contract before streaming was even a thing. Publishers will act the same way and it'll be exactly the same scenario once xCloud is out of beta.
 

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,740
I don't see why they would be that. In that case MS must've put that into the license contract before streaming was even a thing. Publishers will act the same way and it'll be exactly the same scenario once xCloud is out of beta.

You can stream any game you own on Steam or not via Steam Remote Play. In that case you are streaming it from your PC.
 

Ales34

Member
Apr 15, 2018
6,455
I don't see why they would be that. In that case MS must've put that into the license contract before streaming was even a thing. Publishers will act the same way and it'll be exactly the same scenario once xCloud is out of beta.
I agree with you that Microsoft will likely need a streaming license with the publishers too, but I imagine it would be much easier for them than for Nvidia. They are not a third party like Nvidia, they're a platform that distributes the publishers' games anyway (like Steam). Adding a streaming clause to existing contracts will be only a matter of negotiation, which shouldn't be a problem for Microsoft, since so many games are already enrolled in Gamepass. Microsoft knows how to get it done. I have much more confidence in Xcloud than GFN for that reason.
 

Gay Bowser

Member
Oct 30, 2017
17,738
The part about consumers just purchasing a license is depressing.

I mean, that's just factually true, though. That's what you're buying, when you download any piece of software. That always has been the case. I mean, what else are you buying, if not a license? Don't just say "the game," be specific. What, in a legal sense, are you actually purchasing?

Now, should that license cover running the program for your own use on hardware that is outside of your house? Sure, you'd get no argument from me. I just don't understand how all of software works is "depressing" or a scam.
 

345

Member
Oct 30, 2017
7,444
just as one example that i think most people could probably agree on, anyone who publishes fighting games would have obvious reasons for not wanting them on a streaming service like geforce now, since it'd compromise their ability to manage matchmaking and the multiplayer base at large. same goes for shooters, to a lesser extent. it's totally understandable to not be into the idea of your game unilaterally being added to a third-party service without consultation on how it'll actually play.

nvidia is taking the uber/airbnb approach of just doing things without asking permission and hoping it amasses enough users in the process to build popular support. that's fine, but it's entirely reasonable for publishers to call their bluff.
 

j7vikes

Definitely not shooting blanks
Member
Jan 5, 2020
5,774
I don't know who else to ask but this is seriously anti-consumer and if Devs aren't involved to be blamed.

It's just often the best ways to make money are anti-consumer. Corporations aren't about to start letting "tiny" things like something being anti-consumer matter.

Greed is good, god bless capitalism, wealth will trickle down and all that other bullshit.
 

Deleted member 27751

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
3,997
No they're not? If I stop subscribing to Geforce Now I won't lose access to my library. That's like saying Dell is selling you access to your games...

I've read your previous post. The part about consumers just purchasing a license is depressing.
Read into the actual words that were posted, they are indeed selling access to your library. It is an existing one, one that you have previously purchased, but there is a paywall behind the higher tier streaming service which is still profit from someone else work. All while not actually communicating properly with developers/publishers that their games WOULD be available on the service and just assuming it will be fine on the premise of not owning/making you purchase a library.

Yes, there is a free tier of access however it is the paid option that still counts towards the argument of EULA isues.
It's just often the best ways to make money are anti-consumer. Corporations aren't about to start letting "tiny" things like something being anti-consumer matter.

Greed is good, god bless capitalism, wealth will trickle down and all that other bullshit.
When looking at this particular microcosm of societal offering the capitalism notion is just one of several reasons to the publisher spookfest. Ignoring all other valid reasons for publisher retraction is just shaping a bias that could be more informed.
 

Aztechnology

Community Resettler
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
14,154
Probably, as if you didn't want enough launchers, now you get a streaming app for every launcher
Yea, I mean it'll be a long time until we see it for a lot of launchers. But none of these companies want to lose their ability to derive potential profits for stuff like this down the line, they want exclusive rights. They'll likely try to suck profit out of Nvidia/Stadia etc. For now. While they examine the profitability of creating or partnering for similiar services in the future. The part that concerns players, is that it means future rights of game license ownership is going to be more and more limited if courts don't address the rights of people purchasing licenses in situations like this.

Technically even streaming a game off steam could be removed if they wanted to.
 

Sarcastico

Member
Oct 27, 2017
774
I mean, that's just factually true, though. That's what you're buying, when you download any piece of software. That always has been the case. I mean, what else are you buying, if not a license? Don't just say "the game," be specific. What, in a legal sense, are you actually purchasing?

Now, should that license cover running the program for your own use on hardware that is outside of your house? Sure, you'd get no argument from me. I just don't understand how all of software works is "depressing" or a scam.

I acknowledge the fact that I do not own the intellectual property of the game I purchased, but using that fact as a way to block me from playing my games a different way is what I am frustrated with. This is from the post of the user I originally quoted.

Read into the actual words that were posted, they are indeed selling access to your library. It is an existing one, one that you have previously purchased, but there is a paywall behind the higher tier streaming service which is still profit from someone else work. All while not actually communicating properly with developers/publishers that their games WOULD be available on the service and just assuming it will be fine on the premise of not owning/making you purchase a library.

Yes, there is a free tier of access however it is the paid option that still counts towards the argument of EULA isues.

When looking at this particular microcosm of societal offering the capitalism notion is just one of several reasons to the publisher spookfest. Ignoring all other valid reasons for publisher retraction is just shaping a bias that could be more informed.

I understand what they are getting at, and I still stand by my reply. I am playing on a virtual machine that I am renting. I should be able to do that.