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Hetz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
735
Umm, if NY is really now a battleground state that is requiring an influx of cash to save seats, then I am officially on board the we need to replace Biden now train. That is completely insane. We can't just put our heads in the sand and pretend everything is fine, when there are warning sirens blaring all over the place.
 

vrietje

Member
Dec 4, 2018
1,008
Just to say it show how st*pid some voters are. Even if Biden is showing sings of mental degradation. Why run to Trump, that man is showing even bigger signs of dementia than Biden. I could under stand people running to third party or independent candidates. But not to Trump, than you are just stupid.
 

NinjaScooter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,479
Polls have been broken for a while. That said, Biden is weak. I agree there. And what's your solution? Kamala?

Someone who can actually campaign and has a chance to energize voters rather than a person who reminds everyone that they are too old/unfit for the job every time they get in front of a microphone? Is that too much to ask for the President of the United States?
 

Vourlis

Member
Aug 14, 2022
4,593
United States
Umm, if NY is really now a battleground state that is requiring an influx of cash to save seats, then I am officially on board the we need to replace Biden now train. That is completely insane. We can't just put our heads in the sand and pretend everything is fine, when there are warning sirens blaring all over the place.

the minute you leave the city, it's random asf.
 

Thordinson

Banned
Aug 1, 2018
19,222
Just to say it show how st*pid some voters are. Even if Biden is showing sings of mental degradation. Why run to Trump, that man is showing even bigger signs of dementia than Biden. I could under stand people running to third party or independent candidates. But not to Trump, than you are just stupid.

Because we tell everyone it's only a binary option.

Not to mention, Trump says things loud and confidently which folks, in general, find more appealing.
 

NinjaScooter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,479
Just to say it show how st*pid some voters are. Even if Biden is showing sings of mental degradation. Why run to Trump, that man is showing even bigger signs of dementia than Biden. I could under stand people running to third party or independent candidates. But not to Trump, than you are just stupid.

Because the danger isn't really just Biden voters turning into Trump voters. It's Biden voters staying home on Election Day.
 

NinjaScooter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,479
Then you lose more by picking a random candidate this late

Not necessarily. That isn't suddenly a fact because you say so. You potentially gain voters/support if you can run a candidate who isn't going to carry this baggage and who isn't going to have the narrative shift to their fitness for the job every time they open their mouth. Biden is probably cooked with no way to change the narrative. That's the major issue here. That's all anybody is going to be talking about with him for the next 4 months.
 

Nola

Member
Oct 29, 2017
9,287
As much as I agree Biden should step aside at this point, I think this is smart political calculus by AOC. She's one of the best we have, and there's no need to really wade against the nominee flow for little reward. She's with the party and nominee publically. If Biden steps down, no one's going to hold that position against her.
The issue isn't in the scenario he steps down, the issue is in the scenario where he doesn't and Democrats take a huge bath in the election and the reps(which by accounts is almost all of them) saying privately he needs to step down, but acting feckless in public, will draw the ire of Democrats the way Hillary and other Democrats drew the ire of voters for supporting the Iraq War.

Not insurmountable, as Biden showed eventually, but the inability to take moral stands, and standing on the wrong side of history, has a way of sticking to people as Biden himself knows.
 

Emwitus

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Feb 28, 2018
5,147
Not necessarily. That isn't suddenly a fact because you say so. You potentially gain voters/support if you can run a candidate who isn't going to carry this baggage and who isn't going to have the narrative shift to their fitness for the job every time they open their mouth. Biden is probably cooked with no way to change the narrative. That's the major issue here. That's all anybody is going to be talking about with him for the next 4 months.

so ninja, that goes both ways. We are all s peaking hypotheticals here. If anything my pick would be Hilary over kamala
 

Judge

Vault-Tec Seal of Approval
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
6,402
Because the danger isn't really just Biden voters turning into Trump voters. It's Biden voters staying home on Election Day.
I agree it's a real concern having motivated voters to turn out.

I think my only silver lining for turnout is that I see that some swing states will (likely) have Abortion measures on the ballot in November (Nevada, Arizona, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Florida), and this has proven to be a driver of turnout.
 

Planx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,544
I agree it's a real concern having motivated voters to turn out.

I think my only silver lining for turnout is that I see that some swing states will (likely) have Abortion measures on the ballot in November (Nevada, Arizona, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Florida), and this has proven to be a driver of turnout.
I think it's possible it will work the other way. Biden will depress turnout for those measures
 

Thordinson

Banned
Aug 1, 2018
19,222
I agree it's a real concern having motivated voters to turn out.

I think my only silver lining for turnout is that I see that some swing states will (likely) have Abortion measures on the ballot in November (Nevada, Arizona, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Florida), and this has proven to be a driver of turnout.

In the most recent elections, turnout favored the GOP instead of the Dems.
 

Judge

Vault-Tec Seal of Approval
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
6,402
In the most recent elections, turnout favored the GOP instead of the Dems.
I think it's not great to compare midterm turnout to Presidential year turnouts, but the point is well taken that the turnout could just as well be higher for GOP base who will also vote for these measures.

(I'm trying to cope with all this bad news lately lol)
 

Kaitos

Tens across the board!
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
17,153
High turnout probably favors the GOP now. One of the reasons that Dems didn't have an apocalyptic 2022 is that we swapped low-propensity voters who are more efficient in the electoral college for higher-propensity voters who gave us a hit in the electoral college.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,903
I think it's not great to compare midterm turnout to Presidential year turnouts, but the point is well taken that the turnout could just as well be higher for GOP base who will also vote for these measures.

(I'm trying to cope with all this bad news lately lol)

The best way to cope is to only focus on the swing states and hope that the GOP continues to fucks it up somehow. Biden's path to victory hasn't really changed. The downticket implications are more problematic but that's a whole different kettle of fish.
 

Nola

Member
Oct 29, 2017
9,287
Then you lose more by picking a random candidate this late. If anything that will split the pa rty
There is zero ability to really qualify this statement though, it is not possible to run the experiments side by side. At best you can say that a new candidate has it's own set of dangers and risks.

But in the reality we currently have, the party is already split and support and enthusiasm evaporating. If Biden loses under these conditions the fallout will be catastrophic not just to the party, but in the disillusionment it will bring when voters have been saying loud and clear for over a year they wanted someone else.

A brokered convention might end in disaster, but we are already on pace for disaster with an 81-year-old candidate and a campaign staff that can't stop screwing things up. But what the alternative pathways offer is an actual chance at some upside and a chance to find a better candidate, better unify the party, stress test platforms and candidates in a way the party failed to do with Biden, earn enormous amounts of free media coverage to bring attention to Democratic messaging, restore confidence to candidates down ballot, and if done right, offer more legitimacy and enthusiasm to the ticket. The upside is that Democrats have a pathway to winning, as it currently stands the pathway to doing that looks near insurmountable with Biden. With a party that people have described as a funeral-like atmosphere. And that sense of inevitable doom will permeate into all levels of party activity right down to the workers in small state campaigns, and every time Biden makes another gaffe that sense of dread will just intensify and breed resentment and complacency.
 

Gavalanche

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 21, 2021
20,789
Theres no changing the Biden age narrative, but there is also no changing his stance on Israel either. You can guarantee many many people haven't forgotten about that. A new candidate would be starting afresh, basically.
 

peppermints

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,965
Theres no changing the Biden age narrative, but there is also no changing his stance on Israel either. You can guarantee many many people haven't forgotten about that. A new candidate would be starting afresh, basically.
The new candidate would be Kamala who is part of the administration that has the stance on Israel.

I also think you are overestimating the general public's level of concern about that. It's most likely a drop in the bucket in terms of lost votes compared to other issues this election.
 

Gavalanche

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 21, 2021
20,789
The new candidate would be Kamala who is part of the administration that has the stance on Israel.

I also think you are overestimating the general public's level of concern about that. It's most likely a drop in the bucket in terms of lost votes compared to other issues this election.

Has Kamala herself said anything about it though? She could plead ignorance for four months I feel.

But you are probably right, I am mistaking my own issue with it as being more broad than it is.
 
Oct 25, 2017
34,971
Atlanta GA
Theres no changing the Biden age narrative, but there is also no changing his stance on Israel either. You can guarantee many many people haven't forgotten about that. A new candidate would be starting afresh, basically.

most democrats, and most voters, don't feel any differently on Israel than Biden. there's not gonna be any drastic change in policy no matter who would end up as the candidate.
 

Xando

Member
Oct 28, 2017
30,045
Has Kamala herself said anything about it though? She could plead ignorance for four months I feel.

But you are probably right, I am mistaking my own issue with it as being more broad than it is.
What is she gonna say? As long as there's even the fraction of a chance biden runs with her as VP she's not gonna come out and stab him in the back with anything else but the administrations position.
 

Kaitos

Tens across the board!
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
17,153
re: Israel/Gaza


View: https://x.com/mehdirhasan/status/1808548084630311202

Third, there's the Gaza-shaped elephant in the room. Prior to last week's debate, it wasn't Biden's age that I considered to be his biggest electoral liability. It was his horrific stance on Gaza, from his non-stop supply of armsto Israel to his nonexistent "red line" on Rafah. Support for Biden among not just Muslim-American and Arab-American voters, but young and Blackvoters, has been plummeting since 7 October 2023. More than half a million "uncommitted" Democratic voters, who could affect the results in multipleswing states, have urged the president to end his unconditional support for Israel's genocide in Gaza.

Given Biden refuses to budge on this issue, a Harris candidacy might offer a fresh start for Democrats on Gaza. Remember the headline in Politico from December? "Kamala Harris pushes White House to be more sympathetic toward Palestinians." Or the NBC News reporting from March on how Biden's national security council "toned down parts of her speech" calling for a ceasefire, because the original draft "was harsher on Israel"?

"She is definitely better on Gaza than he is," a well-connected member of the administration told me a few weeks ago.

To be clear: I'm not saying Joe Biden can't win or that Kamala Harris won't lose. I'm simply saying that there is a younger, more popular, more effective campaigner ready and willing to go, who could turn the page on Gaza while giving Trump the rhetorical drubbing he so deserves.
 

Gavalanche

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 21, 2021
20,789
What is she gonna say? As long as there's even the fraction of a chance biden runs with her as VP she's not gonna come out and stab him in the back with anything else but the administrations position.

She doesn't have to say anything. trump also supports Israel, so it is something that is unlikely to come up in debate. Just don't say anything at all, don't bring it up, don't do anything. we all know it is probably bullshit, but it is all about perception.
 

Nola

Member
Oct 29, 2017
9,287
Theres no changing the Biden age narrative, but there is also no changing his stance on Israel either. You can guarantee many many people haven't forgotten about that. A new candidate would be starting afresh, basically.
Mehdi Hassan has made this point repeatedly, and today I was listening to an NPR piece driving into work talking about just how absolutely toxic the rift between Tik Tok Influencers on the left and Biden's Administration has become. And these are the influencers and platform at the center of what led to a 40-year high in youth turnout in 2020 and 2022, and overwhelmingly for Democrats.

The Biden Admin has done the Boomer thing of treating Social Media influencers as self-serving marketing tools and not media figures like a Stephen Colbert or the Washington Post where you might not agree, but burning bridges is cutting your nose to spite your face. Well, The Biden Admin basically chose suicide with Gen Z influencers. Which is a complete 180 from 2020 and 2022 when they were often symbiotic and were key forces in getting Gen Z mobilized. Now as influencers have pushed for changes to the platform around Israel, against backing pipelines, on progressive policies, or just in general asking tough questions, they basically said either you fall 100% in line behind us or we will cut you off and ice you out.....which they have done.

Just the more you dig in, from all directions the Biden Campaign is catastrophically blowing this.
 

Metto

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,252

Yeah on one hand it's really hard for her to completely wash her hands with what Biden did with Gaza being a part of his administration but being more vocal on needing to keep Israel at bay and perhaps even straight up saying she would support a ceasefire would be more credible coming from her and also be a much better contrast than Trump saying Israel should finish the job.
 

Kaitos

Tens across the board!
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
17,153
Yeah on one hand it's really hard for her to completely wash her hands with what Biden did with Gaza being a part of his administration but being more vocal on needing to keep Israel at bay and perhaps even straight up saying she would support a ceasefire would be more credible coming from her and also be a much better contrast than Trump saying Israel should finish the job.
An underrated point is also that Kamala wouldn't be so reviled by young voters that left-leaning influencers wouldn't feel like they couldn't post about her on TikTok. Her meme status here is also, weirdly, helpful.

 

PawPrints

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,504
Mehdi Hassan has made this point repeatedly, and today I was listening to an NPR piece driving into work talking about just how absolutely toxic the rift between Tik Tok Influencers on the left and Biden's Administration has become. And these are the influencers and platform at the center of what led to a 40-year high in youth turnout in 2020 and 2022, and overwhelmingly for Democrats.

The Biden Admin has done the Boomer thing of treating Social Media influencers as self-serving marketing tools and not media figures like a Stephen Colbert or the Washington Post where you might not agree, but burning bridges is cutting your nose to spite your face. Well, The Biden Admin basically chose suicide with Gen Z influencers. Which is a complete 180 from 2020 and 2022 when they were often symbiotic and were key forces in getting Gen Z mobilized. Now as influencers have pushed for changes to the platform around Israel, against backing pipelines, on progressive policies, or just in general asking tough questions, they basically said either you fall 100% in line behind us or we will cut you off and ice you out.....which they have done.

Just the more you dig in, from all directions the Biden Campaign is catastrophically blowing this.

It's hubris. Biden basically just condescendingly telling them they have no other choice besides him or Trump. Not exactly inspiring.

I have some faith they will hold their nose and do the right thing at the end but I'm not when mad anymore at this point if they don't. The Biden campaign absolutely blundered this
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
64,378

Nola

Member
Oct 29, 2017
9,287
What is she gonna say? As long as there's even the fraction of a chance biden runs with her as VP she's not gonna come out and stab him in the back with anything else but the administrations position.
Picking Biden as VP would be unwise on a number of levels tbh. From the age concern we currently have, to restricting freedom of movement to distance from Biden on unpopular policies, to playing into emerging(and racist/misogynist) Trump/GOP attacks that she is a DEI hire that slept her way to the top and isn't trusted by Biden to lead.

If Biden steps aside the Party needs to open up the convention and use that opportunity to vet the field and find as best of candidates as they can, including VP's....Which I think Harris would win, but the process can help test her campaign skills, platforms, and vet potential VP's, while hopefully restoring confidence and confidence of purpose.

And as Mehdi Hassan has argued, what Kamala gets to do is run exclusively on a ceasefire and say she serves her country and president but she is her own person and as president would make those determinations using her best judgement. When pushed if she will withhold aid, she simply says that we will always support Israel's self defense, but have laws in place that require ongoing assessments if regimes are violating human rights and if a country is found to be violating them, that weaponry being used in furtherance of those violations will be restricted. That these are laws that we need to apply dispassionately and as much to allies as we criticize foes if we want to retain moral authority on the world stage...This is a position a majority of Democrats, including Jewish Democrats, support. So unless she is in fact as ghoulish as Biden(which reporting suggests she is not, as she reportedly made a push at Biden to be more sympathetic to Palestineans and the Biden Admin toned down her speeches in deference to Israel) this can be a genuine statement and one that is not simply gaslighting.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,903
There is zero ability to really qualify this statement though, it is not possible to run the experiments side by side. At best you can say that a new candidate has it's own set of dangers and risks.

But in the reality we currently have, the party is already split and support and enthusiasm evaporating. If Biden loses under these conditions the fallout will be catastrophic not just to the party, but in the disillusionment it will bring when voters have been saying loud and clear for over a year they wanted someone else.

A brokered convention might end in disaster, but we are already on pace for disaster with an 81-year-old candidate and a campaign staff that can't stop screwing things up. But what the alternative pathways offer is an actual chance at some upside and a chance to find a better candidate, better unify the party, stress test platforms and candidates in a way the party failed to do with Biden, earn enormous amounts of free media coverage to bring attention to Democratic messaging, restore confidence to candidates down ballot, and if done right, offer more legitimacy and enthusiasm to the ticket. The upside is that Democrats have a pathway to winning, as it currently stands the pathway to doing that looks near insurmountable with Biden.

Biden needs to win 44 electoral votes out of a total of 77 (WI, GA, PA, MI, NV and AZ). That's the election in a nutshell assuming VA and FL are not in play. Any Democratic POTUS since Kennedy has carried PA and MI. So really it comes down to winning one of WI, GA, AZ.
 

Xorus

Member
May 27, 2024
386
The thing about Harris and Gaza is that - any positive movement by her will be better for the base (even if marginally).

Bidens position has been so horrific that even small positive concessions could matter to voters.
 

Trey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,843
Mehdi Hassan has made this point repeatedly, and today I was listening to an NPR piece driving into work talking about just how absolutely toxic the rift between Tik Tok Influencers on the left and Biden's Administration has become. And these are the influencers and platform at the center of what led to a 40-year high in youth turnout in 2020 and 2022, and overwhelmingly for Democrats.

The Biden Admin has done the Boomer thing of treating Social Media influencers as self-serving marketing tools and not media figures like a Stephen Colbert or the Washington Post where you might not agree, but burning bridges is cutting your nose to spite your face. Well, The Biden Admin basically chose suicide with Gen Z influencers. Which is a complete 180 from 2020 and 2022 when they were often symbiotic and were key forces in getting Gen Z mobilized. Now as influencers have pushed for changes to the platform around Israel, against backing pipelines, on progressive policies, or just in general asking tough questions, they basically said either you fall 100% in line behind us or we will cut you off and ice you out.....which they have done.

Just the more you dig in, from all directions the Biden Campaign is catastrophically blowing this.

This squares. The only hope is doing whatever possible to change that perception on socials over the next 4 months. They're starting the Project 2025 media blitz.
 

kmfdmpig

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
20,793
One thing that frustrates me is that good leaders spend time and effort mentoring successors. Biden was 78 when he took office and had talked about being a one term president, but he hasn't done shit to push Harris in the public's eye. Now he uses his failure in that regard as justification for staying in the race because "he's the only one that can win". If he had foresight she would have been highlighted more these last few years.
 

Nola

Member
Oct 29, 2017
9,287
It's hubris. Biden basically just condescendingly telling them they have no other choice besides him or Trump. Not exactly inspiring.

I have some faith they will hold their nose and do the right thing at the end but I'm not when mad anymore at this point if they don't. The Biden campaign absolutely blundered this
And I dont even put this one on Biden, I doubt he even knows this went on, but in my mind it speaks to how it's not just Biden that is a problem, his campaign team is shaping up to be as disastrous as the one's Biden had in his 3 prior failed bids at the presidency.

Just self inflicted wound after self inflicted wound, and I simply cannot grasp how people that look at this campaign, and Joe Biden, and conclude yeah, lets trust that these guys are who we should blindly throw our trust behind to patch the wounds and not happen to slit another artery like they have repeatedly done.
 

Judge

Vault-Tec Seal of Approval
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
6,402
With the way the money transfer and infrastructure works doesn't it basically NEED to be Harris for there to be any shot? I thought I read that anyone else would basically need to start from scratch because they aren't on the "Biden Harris" ticket (?)
 

NinjaScooter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,479
With the way the money transfer and infrastructure works doesn't it basically NEED to be Harris for there to be any shot? I thought I read that anyone else would basically need to start from scratch because they aren't on the "Biden Harris" ticket (?)

I think there is definitely some questions as to whether Biden can just transfer campaign dollars to a new candidate or if Harris can just inherit them should he step aside
 

Thordinson

Banned
Aug 1, 2018
19,222
With the way the money transfer and infrastructure works doesn't it basically NEED to be Harris for there to be any shot? I thought I read that anyone else would basically need to start from scratch because they aren't on the "Biden Harris" ticket (?)

They can give unlimited money to the DNC or a PAC for a new campaign.
 

millsaps05

Member
May 21, 2022
791
With the way the money transfer and infrastructure works doesn't it basically NEED to be Harris for there to be any shot? I thought I read that anyone else would basically need to start from scratch because they aren't on the "Biden Harris" ticket (?)
That is the way I have heard it presented on news programs/podcasts by people who should know.
 

Kaitos

Tens across the board!
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
17,153
I think there is definitely some questions as to whether Biden can just transfer campaign dollars to a new candidate or if Harris can just inherit them should he step aside
Harris would inherit them, there'd be zero issues there.

For another candidate, it would be more complicated but ultimately they'd be able to get it done. It just would take more time (which we don't have).
 

Check it out

Member
Oct 25, 2017
645
I truthfully cannot fully comprehend what's going on.

Biden has been visibly in decline for at least 2 years.

The debate displayed what he had been showing those past two years and now the democrats are pretending like this is a shocking reveal.

Now the party is basically split between pretending he is fine and stating he must go.

There is a clear divide publicly amongst leaders in the democratic party that obviously will sow doubt.

Replacing Biden is the logical move but at the same time, it's possible that his replacement will also lose to the most dangerous sector of American politics in my life time. A replacement should have been in motion prior to the primaries so the people could feel like they chose the nominee vs the DNC putting in another puppet to corporate interests.

It feels like we are fucked when the simple thing is to vote against a fascist even if the alternative is a literal empty bag of chips, but there is this narrative that Trump is not only going to win the electoral vote, he's going to win the popular vote.

WRT his base. They are absolutely going to support Trump and there is nothing you can do to change their minds. Did a majority of split voters just get amnesia about who Trump was? Do people want to just tear it down and see what happens? I had noticed a lot of Gen Z wanting to tear it down after the response in Gaza and I'm wondering if their Tik Tok memes + the centrists waking up to Biden's cognitive hole are combining to just put everything where it is.

Feels like the Ticket should be Harris/Pete to try and get as much of a shot to win as possible but even then it feels like the trump train has left the station and the brakes are cut.
 

JaseMath

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,216
Denver, CO
I truthfully cannot fully comprehend what's going on.

Biden has been visibly in decline for at least 2 years.

The debate displayed what he had been showing those past two years and now the democrats are pretending like this is a shocking reveal.

Now the party is basically split between pretending he is fine and stating he must go.

There is a clear divide publicly amongst leaders in the democratic party that obviously will sow doubt.

Replacing Biden is the logical move but at the same time, it's possible that his replacement will also lose to the most dangerous sector of American politics in my life time. A replacement should have been in motion prior to the primaries so the people could feel like they chose the nominee vs the DNC putting in another puppet to corporate interests.

It feels like we are fucked when the simple thing is to vote against a fascist even if the alternative is a literal empty bag of chips, but there is this narrative that Trump is not only going to win the electoral vote, he's going to win the popular vote.

WRT his base. They are absolutely going to support Trump and there is nothing you can do to change their minds. Did a majority of split voters just get amnesia about who Trump was? Do people want to just tear it down and see what happens? I had noticed a lot of Gen Z wanting to tear it down after the response in Gaza and I'm wondering if their Tik Tok memes + the centrists waking up to Biden's cognitive hole are combining to just put everything where it is.
It's upsetting to me because this is clearly a prideful move on Biden's part. He's thinking only of himself; not the country. When he loses, he'll die a pariah, which is a shame given his political service.
 
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