ThisIsBlitz21

Member
Oct 22, 2018
4,692
Since Pokemon's inception, up to generation 5, there has been permanent improvement/addition to the battle system in every new generation game.

- Generation 1 introduced the system.
- Generation 2 added held items and weather effects. Items an have various effects such as boosted attack, or healing some health after each turn. It also introduced two new types, dark and steel, which helped it be more balanced from generation 1 by not having Psychic type. The "special" stat from gen 1 was split into special attack and special defense. Various other fixes were also made.
- Generation 3 introduced natures and abilities. The latter in paticular added a pretty significant layer to give more depth and strategy to the game. Abilities can range from a pokemon levitating, so theyre immune to all ground type attacks, or giving them some boosted stats under a certain weather condition or status effect. It also helped differentiate each pokemon more from each other.
- Generation 4 brought the physical/special split, which I argue is the single biggest improvement. Prior to this, the moves being physical/special were determined by type. That really screwed up certain pokemon such as sneasel or flareon, where they had a high physical attack stat, but all their STAB types were special moves. This change made it so that moves can be either physical/special regardless of what type they are, based on what makes most sense, given their name. For example, Fire punch (making physical contact with opponent) is physical, and Flamethrower (shooting flames at opponent from a distance) was special. This change really made a lot of previously useless pokemon more viable.
- Generation 5 improved didn't bring a major change, but it made a handful of minor improvements. Presentation became much better with animated sprites and a drastically faster battle speed. The reliance on HM's was significantly toned down, while TMs were changed so they have infinite uses, giving more flexibility. Oh, and triple/rotation battles.

Generation 6, generation 7, and generation 8 each added an expendable gimmick, which was thrown in the trash bin after the generation ended. Unlike previous generations, they added nothing to the core of the system as a permanent addition. Infact, a few things were removed. Generation 7 and onwards removed triple/rotation battles, and generation 8 removed the ability to turn the exp share off, making it the most mindlessly easy pokemon game. Pokemon Lets Go gutted the the depth battles had completely, with abilities and held items both taken out. None of these things are hard to understand, even for children. On the contrary, they kept in the hard to understand stuff, EVs/IVs, in the game, which doesnt make any sense for a more casual pokemon game.

Further permanent additions would be awesome. Maybe pokemon get different statures for attack or defense, or maybe dual type moves, something like that. Not saying these ideas would be good, but something along the vain of them, instead of gimmicks like megas and dynamax.


Also, a word on presentation:
3D models were added in generation 6. Problems with them, at least for me, was washed out colors (completely butchered Starmie), awkward idle poses for a lot pokemon, especially flying ones (Thyplosion and Skarmory got the worst of this). And the fact that theyve been the exact same models for three generations, whereas there were new sprites for old pokemon every game or two, kept things fresh. Because of this, generation 5 still reigns supreme in presentation, at least for me.

Edit: this thread is a work in progress, I pressed enter by accident.
 
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Magnus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,920
Yeah, I don't like the 'expendable' gimmicks either. I do like the 2-on-2 battles, though.

I've been a fan of the series since 1998 for many reasons, and played Sword/Shield nonstop for days when it came out. Loved the journey these last 22 (!) years. But I'll say what I've said since 1998: Battle itself has always been boring as shit since day 1. I know that the whole system can't get overhauled and still maintain continuity with the existing games, so I still hope that one day, a high-budget side series emerges with real-time, dynamic combat that more resembles an action RPG.
 

Glio

Member
Oct 27, 2017
25,773
Spain
I'm fine with that. The first games still didn't have the foundation but right now the battle system is in a place where I feel like the only thing that needs improvement is presentation and agility.
 

Linde

Banned
Sep 2, 2018
3,983
gens 1 to 5 were tweaking the system to perfection
there's really not much to do aside from improving presentation
 

Normal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,296
Still has the best turn based gameplay on the market, no other jrpg comes close. 🤷‍♂️

All they really need to do is make the battle system faster.
 

Neoleo2143

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,521
Gen 6 introduced the Fairy Type and the additional Terrain settings which are very much relevant today.
 
OP
OP

ThisIsBlitz21

Member
Oct 22, 2018
4,692
Fairy type is way too overpowered in my book to consider it a definite improvement, sorry.

More like a sideways step that made dragon less OP, but in turn fairy type got OP.
 

Aleh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,246
Since gen 5? Lol
Gen 5 did nothing. You tried to salvage it by saying it improved the presentation completely ignoring the jump to 3D in gen 6. And no your arbitrary reasons why it doesn't count are silly.
And also ignored fairy type rebalance...
Honestly people need to stop trying to make gen 5 happen, it's not gonna happen.
 
OP
OP

ThisIsBlitz21

Member
Oct 22, 2018
4,692
Since gen 5? Lol
Gen 5 did nothing. You tried to salvage it by saying it improved the presentation completely ignoring the jump to 3D in gen 6.
And also ignored fairy type rebalance...
Honestly people need to stop trying to make gen 5 happen, it's not gonna happen.
People need to read the OP.
 

Normal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,296
Since gen 5? Lol
Gen 5 did nothing. You tried to salvage it by saying it improved the presentation completely ignoring the jump to 3D in gen 6. And no your arbitrary reasons why it doesn't count are silly.
And also ignored fairy type rebalance...
Honestly people need to stop trying to make gen 5 happen, it's not gonna happen.
Dreamworld + Team Preview did a lot to shift the meta-game. Don't know why the OP didn't say that and instead mentioned rotation battles. 😂
I don't think the OP battles online. 🤔
 

NaDannMaGoGo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,483
Still has the best turn based gameplay on the market, no other jrpg comes close. 🤷‍♂️

All they really need to do is make the battle system faster.

Setting competitive PvP aside, the problem is that in singleplayer (so, that which matters the most for 95% of the player base) the indeed fundamentally good combat system is HEAVILY underutilized. 2on2 battles, for instance, are an afterthought. AI is less than an afterthought. Trainer team compositions weren't given any thought. Balance in general is just dreadful and then you don't even have any real difficulty options.

There are fan games which are fricking awesome because they do all the above miles better.
 

Lazybob

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
6,710
I'd say held items were a good addition but only for PvP. The games themselves really never bothered with them, wasting their potential.

At most some past games, like Black and White 2 (on normal), at least gave gym leaders and Elite 4 a berry for their ace. Otherwise most games never made you interact with held items unless you use them yourself, in which case you now have an advantage since no other trainers bother. It's one of those mechanics that could be really engaging but they just don't do anything meaningful with it. Hell this gen I don't recall any items being used by opponents except one minor battle that you get the item from.

Black and White 2's challenge mode is the exception but that's locked behind one of the stupidest systems I've seen. It's a shame they've only gave players options once and did it in the most obtuse way possible.
 
OP
OP

ThisIsBlitz21

Member
Oct 22, 2018
4,692
You tried to salvage it by saying it improved the presentation completely ignoring the jump to 3D in gen 6.
Your own words.
3D models were added in generation 6. Problems with them, at least for me, was washed out colors (completely butchered Starmie), awkward idle poses for a lot pokemon, especially flying ones (Thyplosion and Skarmory got the worst of this). And the fact that theyve been the exact same models for three generations, whereas there were new sprites for old pokemon every game or two, kept things fresh. Because of this, generation 5 still reigns supreme in presentation, at least for me.
There in the OP, I touched on it. So it's literally incorrect to say I ignored it.
 

Sterok

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,130
The core battle system was essentially perfected in gen 4. Everything after that has been tweaks like what weather has gone through, smaller additions like terrain, and larger gimmicks like Megas. And that's fine. The actual combat is the least of the series's problems, receiving just enough tweaks and additions each update to keep the meta interesting.
 

affeinvasion

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,086
Since gen 5? Lol
Gen 5 did nothing. You tried to salvage it by saying it improved the presentation completely ignoring the jump to 3D in gen 6. And no your arbitrary reasons why it doesn't count are silly.
And also ignored fairy type rebalance...
Honestly people need to stop trying to make gen 5 happen, it's not gonna happen.
I don't consider the move from fantastically animated sprites to 3D models to be an improvement in any way, shape, or form. I literally just replayed White 2 this week and the sprite work during battles adds so much character and charm that has been missing for a while now with a few notable exceptions for certain pokemon that are emphasized more in the newer games.
 

jnWake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,108
It's a shame Megas didn't turn into a permanent thing. It was a fun idea that could've used further tweaking.

Z-Moves weren't bad but it's just adding gimmick over gimmick and by that point it becomes more annoying than fun.
 

N.47H.4N

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,182
Yeah,its getting worse each gen,including 5th,did nothing too,the last gimmick is the worst.
They add fairy,which is cool,but that is it.
 

Aleh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,246
I don't consider the move from fantastically animated sprites to 3D models to be an improvement in any way, shape, or form. I literally just replayed White 2 this week and the sprite work during battles adds so much character and charm that has been missing for a while now with a few notable exceptions for certain pokemon that are emphasized more in the newer games.
That's just personal preference. I think the blown up sprites look terrible and super pixelated.
 

Illusion

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,407
I'd argue adding Fairy typing did a lot for Gen 6 for balance reasons gameplay-wise.

Mega Evolutions, Z Moves and Gigantamax/Dynamax is where mistakes were made.

Mega Evolutions could had been rebalanced and expanded on but they kept moving to different gimmicks then working with what was only the table. But they kept making it worse or adding gimmicks that are even worse for the gameplay's balance.

But we are in definite need of another Gen 5 of not minor but major improvements to the existing content.

All in all I absolutely can't wait until Dynamax/Gigantimax is either balanced or removed.
 

Yoshimitsu126

The Fallen
Nov 11, 2017
15,698
United States
Gen VI made Pokemon of certain types immune to status condition or move types. For example, Electric Pokemon can't be paralyzed and Grass Pokemon are immune to xxx powder or spore moves.

Gen VII marks the in battle buff and debuff of your Pokemon stats in their summary.
 

Lumination

Member
Oct 26, 2017
14,153
Just because you don't like the 3D graphics doesn't mean it wasn't a meaningful progression.

Just because you don't like Megas doesn't mean it wasn't a meaningful progression.

Just because you don't like exp share doesn't mean... you get the point.

This is a thread about what you don't like under the guise of a silly claim. And I'm a gen 8 detractor.
 

Aleh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,246
You're right that it comes down to preference, but the 3DS screen was probably also not the place to debut 3D models with a bad AA solution that tanked frame rate.
Hmm they didn't use AA though, what tanked the framerate was the poly count. And that's not a problem on Switch now at least :p
 

RROCKMAN

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
11,117
Simply adding a type doesn't change much of the day to day playing

OP is probably looking for mechanical changes that everyone has access to across the board to change things and there hasn't been much of that.

Kinda like how smash Ultimate actually introduced a global parry system that is built off previous perfect shield systems.

Pokémon keeps changing the gimmick per region and tbf there is little reason to even start taking the gimmick seriously since they will simply add a new one for the next region.

They should pick an addition and actually add/build upon to it instead of trying to constantly changing things
 

Aleh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,246
Simply adding a type doesn't change much of the day to day playing

OP is probably looking for mechanical changes that everyone has access to across the board to change things and there hasn't been much of that.

Kinda like how smash Ultimate actually introduced a global parry system that is built off previous perfect shield systems.

Pokémon keeps changing the gimmick per region and tbf there is little reason to even start taking the gimmick seriously since they will simply add a new one for the next region.

They should pick an addition and actually add/build upon to it instead of trying to constantly changing things
Neither does the physical/special split. That's also just set up. Doesn't mean it wasn't a huge change
 

BassForever

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,827
CT
I'll defend Mega as a concept that should have continued to be expanded as opposed to being completely abandoned in gen 7 making it feel more like a gimmick then an addition to the battle system. And yeah OP I really don't agree with not including Fairy, but you also didn't consider Dark and Steel as meaningful changes so at least you were consistent.
 

VPplaya

Member
Nov 20, 2018
2,025
I think we can all agree though that out of all the battle system changes over the years, Dmax and Gmax are unequivocally the worst and most poorly designed/implemented. They are literally the reason I have no interest in competitive battling, which I participated in often during Gens 5, 6, and 7.
 
Mar 18, 2020
2,434
The game as a whole is pretty much stagnating, and they're only doing the bare minimum visually. Kind of sad considering how much of a phenomenon the IP was.
 

RedAhmed

Member
Jan 9, 2018
3,723
The physical/special split was the one I enjoyed the most, it changed things a lot IMO.

And I hate gen 6, but it did add a lot.

gens 1 to 5 were tweaking the system to perfection
there's really not much to do aside from improving presentation
I'm not sure... While I do think the battle system is great and doesn't need new stuff, I do think it can get better.
Personally I would add stuff that does more with Pokémon bonding with the trainer/other Pokémon. Like, have a bond system where the Pokémon gets perks if it has a bond with the trainer, or have a buddy/partner system where 2 Pokémon have perks when in battle together. Or something like having combination attacks. Tournaments are mostly 2v2 anyway, I believe they can do more to improve on that.
 

affeinvasion

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,086
I think we can all agree though that out of all the battle system changes over the years, Dmax and Gmax are unequivocally the worst and most poorly designed/implemented. They are literally the reason I have no interest in competitive battling, which I participated in often during Gens 5, 6, and 7.
Finding Gmax pokemon is also basically the whole end game. As someone who likes the 1v1 and 2v2 combat in the main games, the raid style of battles is really unappealing to me...and that's when I'm lucky enough to be able to get 3 other people to join me instead of some scrub NPC with a Torkoal against a water pokemon.
 
Jun 2, 2019
4,947
Ironically enough, the only thing that Gen 5 added to the Pokemon battle system was exactly a gimmick that was thrown away one Gen later (and it wasn't used in a meaningful way during the game, either)

Gen 5 wasn't that good. Get over it already.

Gen 6 introduced one thing that has been perpetuated, even changing it at each new gen: Table turning mechanics that add a lot to the mind games of the battle.