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Lady Gaia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,514
Seattle
  • lastly, Coherency engines are there to flush the gpu cache. this can hurt the ssd read speeds so they added coherency engines to eliminate the bottleneck.

Flushing the GPU cache has no impact at all on SSD read speeds. The actual problem being solved is that the I/O complex is writing pages to memory so often that if you just invalidate GPU caches constantly (to ensure that it's not rendering using old data) you could significantly impact the performance of the GPU, which is far from ideal. Instead, as described so far, a custom solution was required to selectively invalidate only the cached information derived from pages that are being replaced.

This is pretty typical bus snooping behavior used in CPU cache coherency so it's intriguing to hear that some work was required to enhance RDNA2. It's possible that it was inconsistently implemented previously based on the assumption that some caches, like textures, couldn't afford to be complexly flushed while other smaller caches throughout the design could afford to take the hit - until you start streaming 8+ GB of data into RAM every second while trying to render complex scenes. I guess we won't know until we get a deeper dive and that might not happen in the near term as Sony shifts into consumer marketing mode instead.
 

Joystick

Member
Oct 28, 2017
777
Not sure about SFS but it will be at least partly an API (software) and I suspect (no evidence - sorry) that SFS is based on an RDNA2 feature so will be widely available in the PC space.

SFS is implemented in hardware. We don't know what that means though.

Someone was crowing about the wonders of BCPack a while back, supposedly it's better than what Sony's using. I'm not a game dev, I don't know. The thing that gets me is there's a lot of discussion around BCPack that makes it sound like Sony doesn't have texture compression at all and they're using Kraken ( a lossless general purpose coded) and RDO (which is basically a filtering method from what I understand), which is the part I'm doubting.

It seems likely that the specialised hardware in the PS5 will only support Kraken, for all data on the SSD. For texture data it could be raw, or already be compressed using BCn, maybe BCn + RDO but I don't know if there is an RDO that is specifically designed for Kraken. So in effect there is "texture compression" plus general data compression on top. You can think of BCPack as an alternative to RDO - a way to further compress the BCn compressed textures. Because RDO, and BCPack are lossy, their use is determined by the game devs, however the case for using BCPack is easier because it is backed by hardware decompression (the speed gains will likely be important enough to take the quality loss).

The goal is not to win at compression. Zlib is absolutely good at compression and Kraken being 10% better is good but the goal of kraken is to be better and faster at decompression. Textures are already highly compressed.

For BCn compressed textures software implementations of Kraken can be 2-3x faster at decompression and 10-30% better compression ratio than zlib/LZ. We don't know how they compare with the hardware decompression in the PS5, but the improvements are impressive.

But I'm giving MS the benefit of the doubt that if they've built a special hardware decoder just for textures, it can beat BCn + RDO + general purpose encoder. I mean, a specialized in textures encoder that loses to a general-purpose encoder? That will just be sad.

Kraken alone can compress BCn by quite a lot (20-50%). RDO can increase the compression ratio of LZ further by 10-20%, not sure about the improvement with Kraken. Even a specialised texture compression such as crn is only about 20% better than RDO+LZ, so about the same as Kraken. So can BCPack beat that? Who knows. Maybe, but not likely by a large margin.
 

foamdino

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
491
SFS is implemented in hardware. We don't know what that means though.

Agreed, right now we don't know enough about it. I'm speculating that it's part of the RDNA2 feature set given that it is based around textures but there's not enough information out there about SFS yet (when RDNA2 is revealed I'll probably be proven wrong :-)
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,518
man i have been looking for this quote forever. i knew i read the bit about 3 cpu cores somewhere. how did i miss this lol

  • Cerny said that the PS5 decompressor's performance is roughly equivalent to 9 zen 2 cores. thats what it takes to decompress data using traditional cpu cores.
  • Then you have the DMA Controller which equates to another zen 2 core or two in terms of copy performance.
  • Then you have two i/o coprocessors which arent zen 2 cores, they are just there to direct the hardware above.
  • one of these two coprocessors is dedicated to SSD i/o which lets them bypass traditional file i/o. the other is memory i/o.
  • lastly, Coherency engines are there to flush the gpu cache. this can hurt the ssd read speeds so they added coherency engines to eliminate the bottleneck.
  • Edit: the Audio unit is as powerful as all 8 jaguar cores.

So essentially you have custom hardware in the xbox equivalent to roughly 5 zen 2 cores and custom hardware in the i/o roughly equivalent to 11 zen 2 cores. And again, this is just the first two pieces, there is lots of other stuff in there to eliminate bottlenecks besides the decompressor and controller. So to build a custom pc to run ps5 games, we are looking at a 20 core cpu. crazy.

pretty fascinating stuff. thanks for finding that link.

DrKeo i guess we now know how PCs can brute force the ssd i/o. you need a beefy 20 core cpu at the very least. and a 7gbps ssd going by what cerny said. building PCs next gen is going to be super expensive. i dont see those ssds being cheaper than $300 for 1-2 GBs. 24 core CPUs are pretty expensive too. threadripper is what? a thousand bucks? though i guess a 16 core cpu running at 5.0 ghz might offer the same performance as a 19 core cpu running at 3.5 ghz. still, thats a $700 cpu. it will be funny if the gpu is cheapest part of the next gen PC builds.


That's what DirectStorage is meant for.
DirectStorage – DirectStorage is an all new I/O system designed specifically for gaming to unleash the full performance of the SSD and hardware decompression. It is one of the components that comprise the Xbox Velocity Architecture. Modern games perform asset streaming in the background to continuously load the next parts of the world while you play, and DirectStorage can reduce the CPU overhead for these I/O operations from multiple cores to taking just a small fraction of a single core; thereby freeing considerable CPU power for the game to spend on areas like better physics or more NPCs in a scene. This newest member of the DirectX family is being introduced with Xbox Series X and we plan to bring it to Windows as well.
 

eightg4

Member
Oct 31, 2017
138
Paris, France
I never actively play more than 4 to 5 games tops on one console. It's usually just 1 or 2 games. Gig internet has spoiled me though, I'm 20 minutes away from re-downloading.

I'm disappointed the Unreal demo wasn't 60 FPS, kind of shocked that won't be standard next gen.


Dont forget that it's a tech demo, 60 fps still the target for Epic team before the launch of the UE5 next year.
 

Deleted member 11276

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,223
SFS on Xbox Series X has an added hardware filter to make it a bit more efficient, but it also works the same way on the PC by using DirectStorage and Sampler Feedback.

In short, it depends on DX12 Ultimate support. Technically the PS5 could support it too from a hardware perspective, but Sony has its own APIs.
 
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Sekiro

Member
Jan 25, 2019
2,938
United Kingdom
sirusgaming.com

Playstation 5 Enables Developers to Skip LOD Step Due to SSD Capability

Epic Games and Mooneye Studios CEO Tobias Graff stated that the PlayStation 5 SSD will be so powerful that it will enable developers to skip the LOD step.

I have a quick question about this claim, by skipping LOD are they telling me that a PS5 game can have the same high quality model that it has in an intense cutscene in gameplay aswell now?

I remember everytime i played a game that had a seamless transition from cutscene to gameplay if you look at the character or any other NPC on screen during gameplay their talking animation is awful despite looking amazing in cutscene, can the PS5's SSD finally resolve this issue?
 

Praedyth

Member
Feb 25, 2020
6,753
Brazil
I have a quick question about this claim, by skipping LOD are they telling me that a PS5 game can have the same high quality model that it has in an intense cutscene in gameplay aswell now?
This is exactly what was said on the UE5 demo. Devs can export models with billions of triangles straight from Zbrush and the engine does the LOD, normal maps, etc.
 

Sekiro

Member
Jan 25, 2019
2,938
United Kingdom
This is exactly what was said on the UE5 demo. Devs can export models with billions of triangles straight from Zbrush and the engine does the LOD, normal maps, etc.
Interesting, wonder if this can be done to other NPC's in say a sprawling city, where every character is fully animated with detailed animation.

In fact quick question, if that high quality zbrush model was roughly 33 million triangles, how many triangles would lets say a high quality character from an in engine cutscene be?
 

Vimto

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,724
sirusgaming.com

Playstation 5 Enables Developers to Skip LOD Step Due to SSD Capability

Epic Games and Mooneye Studios CEO Tobias Graff stated that the PlayStation 5 SSD will be so powerful that it will enable developers to skip the LOD step.

I have a quick question about this claim, by skipping LOD are they telling me that a PS5 game can have the same high quality model that it has in an intense cutscene in gameplay aswell now?

I remember everytime i played a game that had a seamless transition from cutscene to gameplay if you look at the character or any other NPC on screen during gameplay their talking animation is awful despite looking amazing in cutscene, can the PS5's SSD finally resolve this issue?
Isn't this basically the same as mesh shaders? I wonder how its different from Nvidia implementation

This demo had 3500 Billion triangle compressed to 50M at any given time.

 

Praedyth

Member
Feb 25, 2020
6,753
Brazil
Interesting, wonder if this can be done to other NPC's in say a sprawling city, where every character is fully animated with detailed animation.

In fact quick question, if that high quality zbrush model was roughly 33 million triangles, how many triangles would lets say a high quality character from an in engine cutscene be?
I don't know about NPCs. I'm sorry.

I doubt a main character is more than a million triangles by today's standard. But there are people better suited than me to answer. Fun fact: I've searched and in-game Aloy's hair is 100k triangles.
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,842
Agreed, right now we don't know enough about it. I'm speculating that it's part of the RDNA2 feature set given that it is based around textures but there's not enough information out there about SFS yet (when RDNA2 is revealed I'll probably be proven wrong :-)

AMD has confirmed that RDNA2 cards will fully support DX12 Ultimate, including sampler feedback.

What Microsoft customised further for Xbox is a tweak for texture filtering when a neighbouring texture page is missing, and is not actually specific to the feedback element. It confused many into thinking the feedback hardware was Xbox specific though.
 

Sekiro

Member
Jan 25, 2019
2,938
United Kingdom
I don't know about NPCs. I'm sorry.

I doubt a main character is more than a million triangles by today's standard. But there are people better suited than me to answer. Fun fact: I've searched and in-game Aloy's hair is 100k triangles.
Only 100k tiangles for that detailed hair,? Amazing, imagine redistributing that to all the NPCs in a city, now everyone's got hair as detailed as Aloys, god its a wonder what that SSD can achieve!
 

behOemoth

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,836
SFS on Xbox Series X has an added hardware filter to make it a bit more efficient, but it also works the same way on the PC by using DirectStorage and Sampler Feedback.

In short, it depends on DX12 Ultimate support. Technically the PS5 could support it too from a hardware perspective, but Sony has its own APIs.
I'm not sure that Windows, the king of sticking to "outdated" things, will implement a new file system within a short time. We should stick to consoles only for now.
 

Praedyth

Member
Feb 25, 2020
6,753
Brazil
Only 100k tiangles for that detailed hair,? Amazing, imagine redistributing that to all the NPCs in a city, now everyone's got hair as detailed as Aloys, god its a wonder what that SSD can achieve!
It's not only the SSD tho, Epic uses some "hyper optimized shaders" to do this on the GPU but yeah, they do stream a lot from the SSD.

I recommend:
www.eurogamer.net

Inside Unreal Engine 5: how Epic delivers its generational leap

Epic's reveal of Unreal Engine 5 running in real-time on PlayStation 5 delivered one of the seismic news events of the …
 

foamdino

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
491
AMD has confirmed that RDNA2 cards will fully support DX12 Ultimate, including sampler feedback.

What Microsoft customised further for Xbox is a tweak for texture filtering when a neighbouring texture page is missing, and is not actually specific to the feedback element. It confused many into thinking the feedback hardware was Xbox specific though.
Thank you - I thought I was heading down the right path with SFS. So it's very likely that all RDNA2 based hardware (XsX, PC and PS5) will support SFS then?
 

sncvsrtoip

Banned
Apr 18, 2019
2,773
sirusgaming.com

Playstation 5 Enables Developers to Skip LOD Step Due to SSD Capability

Epic Games and Mooneye Studios CEO Tobias Graff stated that the PlayStation 5 SSD will be so powerful that it will enable developers to skip the LOD step.

I have a quick question about this claim, by skipping LOD are they telling me that a PS5 game can have the same high quality model that it has in an intense cutscene in gameplay aswell now?

I remember everytime i played a game that had a seamless transition from cutscene to gameplay if you look at the character or any other NPC on screen during gameplay their talking animation is awful despite looking amazing in cutscene, can the PS5's SSD finally resolve this issue?
not sure about it, isn't nanite constraint to static objects ?
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,842
Thank you - I thought I was heading down the right path with SFS. So it's very likely that all RDNA2 based hardware (XsX, PC and PS5) will support SFS then?

Sampler feedback, yes. XSX and PC certainly - and on PC, on the nVidia side, everything from Turing on will support sampler feedback. On PS5, probably, unless Sony explicitly wanted to omit it or not expose it in their API for some reason (the latter of which seems particularly unlikely, but I suppose you never know!). The 'streaming' aspect in SFS - I don't know if that's a term to cover also the texture filter MS added in Xbox, so I'm not sure I'd use that term to just talk about sampler feedback.

But the bit everyone talks about that can be used to tune storage requests and save bandwidth, the sampler feedback bit, that wasn't an Xbox specific add, and that should be available in everything from Turing/RDNA2 onward.
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,842
if it's not free patch on ps5 I think it won't be received very well

I think people need to reign in expectations on what patches might give you vs remasters.

For example, to take another game, Cyberpunk... CD Projekt have said they'll give a patch for free to 'upgrade' the game on next-gen... but they also said that they may well do a fuller 'next-gen' version of Cyberpunk later that you won't be entitled to for free with the original game.

(edit - re. CD Projekt and Cyberpunk, apparently they rowed back on that statement - see below)

The lines might get blurry... some remasters or 'new versions' might go further than others. But if a new version is closer to what people expect from a remaster than e.g. a resolution or settings patch, I wouldn't expect pubs will be giving that out for free on the original license. I think the free upgrade patches will mostly be low hanging fruit - bumping resolution, rebuilds for the next-gen cpus, bumping draw distance, texture filtering etc. But not full on 'remaster' level upgrades.
 
Last edited:

FF Seraphim

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,926
Tokyo
if it's not free patch on ps5 I think it won't be received very well

This is what I am thinking. If you offer the people who have it a patch because Bloodborne will be BC with the PS5 that will be cool and I will still probably buy it on PC.
However, I will be super pissed if despite BB being BC with the PS5 that they release a Remaster and give original owners nothing.
 

Vimto

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,724
I think people need to reign in expectations on what patches might give you vs remasters.

For example, to take another game, Cyberpunk... CD Projekt have said they'll give a patch for free to 'upgrade' the game on next-gen... but they also said that they may well do a fuller 'next-gen' version of Cyberpunk later that you won't be entitled to for free with the original game.

This is untrue.

However, speaking during an earnings call this week, CD Projekt SVP of business development Michal Nowakowski suggested that a separate, significantly enhanced version of the game will also be released for next-gen consoles, but that it won't be a launch title for Xbox Series X and PS5.



Update, April 10: A CD Projekt Red spokesperson has clarified that the "full-blown next-gen version" Nowakowski referred to is the previously announced Xbox Series X upgrade.




www.videogameschronicle.com

CD Projekt says the ‘full-blown, next-gen’ Cyberpunk 2077 won’t be a launch game | VGC

UPDATE: CD Projekt releases statement…
 

Doctor Avatar

Banned
Jan 10, 2019
2,666
SFS on Xbox Series X has an added hardware filter to make it a bit more efficient, but it also works the same way on the PC by using DirectStorage and Sampler Feedback.

In short, it depends on DX12 Ultimate support. Technically the PS5 could support it too from a hardware perspective, but Sony has its own APIs.

The other thing to note is that software can be changed and updated, hardware cannot.

Why the assumption that Sony doesn't have any "software secret sauce" either? Or if they don't, cannot develop some?

XSX has a hardware decompressor and software.

PS5 has hardware decompressor, the IO complex, the GPU cache flushers etc and also has software.
 

JasoNsider

Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,198
Canada
sirusgaming.com

Playstation 5 Enables Developers to Skip LOD Step Due to SSD Capability

Epic Games and Mooneye Studios CEO Tobias Graff stated that the PlayStation 5 SSD will be so powerful that it will enable developers to skip the LOD step.

I have a quick question about this claim, by skipping LOD are they telling me that a PS5 game can have the same high quality model that it has in an intense cutscene in gameplay aswell now?

I remember everytime i played a game that had a seamless transition from cutscene to gameplay if you look at the character or any other NPC on screen during gameplay their talking animation is awful despite looking amazing in cutscene, can the PS5's SSD finally resolve this issue?

The implications are even bigger than just that example, but yes that would be a potential big improvement. Beyond that, however, are huge wins in foregoing so many LOD for varying distances. I've been wondering about making a post about this for a while, because I wonder how illuminating stuff like this would be for the average player. Maybe I'll keep it concise for now.

A common strategy for reducing memory and drawing in a game is to use varying "levels of detail" (LOD). Like a billion other things that happen in game development, it's sleight of hand tricks to get us better performance and more detail into the things that count the most - mainly, the stuff right in front of the player. When you hear LOD, they're almost certainly talking about the varying grades of complexity for a single asset at certain distances. This means varying geometry, texturing, and sometimes even shaders at different distances.

Here's an example from Jane Ng's excellent talk on Firewatch.

h6wp7Pc.png


This is a single tree asset that aggressively reduces its detail over distance (actually, as she points out, in this case it changes based on how big the screen is on screen!). So this kind of strategy can be employed on a single tree, but that's not to say you can't use it for huge static areas in your game as well. For example, here is what some of the entire neighborhoods in GTAV look like when they are in the distance (taken from the amazing breakdown from Adrian Courreges)

Xbygnf7.png


rQ9Ol1R.png


And here's the distance it is in the game at the time:

Sg4GhIk.png


There are a lot of different technologies and middleware around getting your LODs right. There are whole strategies about blending between two different LODs. You may have seen before that at certain distances some assets in a game will either "pop" or "fade in" a better version of an asset. Expensive middleware or custom solutions can also help to try to bake out the range of LODs for a single asset to try and help automate. Even with that, sometimes it can be a lot of work to tweak it so at a certain distance it's using more or less geometry or doesn't look absolutely hideous. As Jane deftly shows, it's both science and art to get this right, and can be a ton of work for a single asset.

Even some of the world's best funded and most talented teams can only take this so far. Not only is it a massive pain in the workflow, but beyond that, players have always been able to see the cracks here and there.

So back to the implications on PS5...

What's being implied is that you can just forget all of this. Instead of making 5 different versions of an asset at varying distances (including the character models you pointed out) you can just use your best one. It wouldn't be a universal benefit (there are times you want to shy away from high quality noisy stuff in the distance), but in general this is a game changer for both developers and players.

It goes further than that: we've been talking about LODs, but up to now our hardware can't run the actual assets that artists build in their 3D authoring software (Maya, Blender, Zbrush, etc) This is because the highest quality version of the model you're authoring in that software is usually way too high fidelity and either it would bring the hardware to its knees or would just be an irresponsible use of memory/system resources to display. So inevitably they "bake down" the best versions of an asset into a texture maps and geometry that more align with the system constraints. Now, what was implied in the UE5 demo was just being able to save your highest quality source asset file without the need to export a decimated (reduced geometry) and baked out (a collection of textures) version of it. That is a mind blowing and insane proposition to probably anybody who has worked around this stuff. They had a 30+ million triangle asset in UE5 on display. Instead of every little crack and scratch being baked into a normal map, it was an actual piece of geometry that looks accurate from any angle. Long story short - it means your highest quality model (highest level of detail) in the game will be even higher quality than ever before and take way less futzing around to get it there.

So yeah, there are some pretty huge promises on the horizon in this regard. If you're able to put the pieces together here you can probably also see how this is going to mean extremely high quality assets even at a distance, which will in turn mean we need to stream in a lot more data. Hence the move to lightning fast drive speed and why that is so important this upcoming generation.
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,842

Oh, well that's a great update then.

Still, in the general case on upgrade patches vs paid-for remasters, I wouldn't expect the former will get rid of the latter. But whether different 'remasters' reach the level that justify a separate payment, I guess that will be a hot subject of debate from game to game, if some remasters are e.g. low efforts.
 

Sekiro

Member
Jan 25, 2019
2,938
United Kingdom
The implications are even bigger than just that example, but yes that would be a potential big improvement. Beyond that, however, are huge wins in foregoing so many LOD for varying distances. I've been wondering about making a post about this for a while, because I wonder how illuminating stuff like this would be for the average player. Maybe I'll keep it concise for now.

A common strategy for reducing memory and drawing in a game is to use varying "levels of detail" (LOD). Like a billion other things that happen in game development, it's sleight of hand tricks to get us better performance and more detail into the things that count the most - mainly, the stuff right in front of the player. When you hear LOD, they're almost certainly talking about the varying grades of complexity for a single asset at certain distances. This means varying geometry, texturing, and sometimes even shaders at different distances.

Here's an example from Jane Ng's excellent talk on Firewatch.

h6wp7Pc.png


This is a single tree asset that aggressively reduces its detail over distance. So this kind of strategy can be employed on a single tree, but that's not to say you can't use it for huge static areas in your game as well. For example, here is what some of the entire neighborhoods in GTAV look like when they are in the distance (taken from the amazing breakdown from Adrian Courreges)

Xbygnf7.png


rQ9Ol1R.png


And here's the distance it is in the game at the time:

Sg4GhIk.png


There are a lot of different technologies and middleware around getting your LODs right. There are whole strategies about blending between two different LODs. You may have seen before that at certain distances some assets in a game will either "pop" or "fade in" a better version of an asset. Expensive middleware or custom solutions can also help to try to bake out the range of LODs for a single asset to try and help automate. Even with that, sometimes it can be a lot of work to tweak it so at a certain distance it's using more or less geometry or doesn't look absolutely hideous. As Jane deftly shows, it's both science and art to get this right, and can be a ton of work for a single asset.

Even some of the world's best funded and most talented teams can only take this so far. Not only is it a massive pain in the workflow, but beyond that, players have always been able to see the cracks here and there.

So back to the implications on PS5...

What's being implied is that you can just forget all of this. Instead of making 5 different versions of an asset at varying distances (including the character models you pointed out) you can just use your best one. It wouldn't be a universal benefit (there are times you want to shy away from high quality noisy stuff in the distance), but in general this is a game changer for both developers and players.

It goes further than that: we've been talking about LODs, but up to now our hardware can't run the actual assets that artists build in their 3D authoring software (Maya, Blender, Zbrush, etc) This is because the highest quality version of the model you're authoring in that software is usually way too high fidelity and either it would bring the hardware to its knees or would just be an irresponsible use of memory/system resources to display. So inevitably they "bake down" the best versions of an asset into a texture maps and geometry that more align with the system constraints. Now, what was implied in the UE5 demo was just being able to save your highest quality source asset file without the need to export a decimated (reduced geometry) and baked out (a collection of textures) version of it. That is a mind blowing and insane proposition to probably anybody who has worked around this stuff. They had a 30+ million triangle asset in UE5 on display. Instead of every little crack and scratch being baked into a normal map, it was an actual piece of geometry that looks accurate from any angle. Long story short - it means your highest quality model (highest level of detail) in the game will be even higher quality than ever before and take way less futzing around to get it there.

So yeah, there are some pretty huge promises on the horizon in this regard. If you're able to put the pieces together here you can probably also see how this is going to mean extremely high quality assets even at a distance, which will in turn mean we need to stream in a lot more data. Hence the move to lightning fast drive speed and why that is so important this upcoming generation.
Holy crap this is so informative, thank you!!
 

sncvsrtoip

Banned
Apr 18, 2019
2,773
I think people need to reign in expectations on what patches might give you vs remasters.

For example, to take another game, Cyberpunk... CD Projekt have said they'll give a patch for free to 'upgrade' the game on next-gen... but they also said that they may well do a fuller 'next-gen' version of Cyberpunk later that you won't be entitled to for free with the original game.

(edit - re. CD Projekt and Cyberpunk, apparently they rowed back on that statement - see below)

The lines might get blurry... some remasters or 'new versions' might go further than others. But if a new version is closer to what people expect from a remaster than e.g. a resolution or settings patch, I wouldn't expect pubs will be giving that out for free on the original license. I think the free upgrade patches will mostly be low hanging fruit - bumping resolution, rebuilds for the next-gen cpus, bumping draw distance, texture filtering etc. But not full on 'remaster' level upgrades.
Generaly remaster for me means there are minor changes like resolution bump, frames, better textures and in situation with back compatibility should be free or just don't do it. Don't have any problems with full price for well done remakes.
 

DavidDesu

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,718
Glasgow, Scotland
Regarding smooth LOD, I'm just looking forward to the car ahead of me not popping in and out of different detail levels about 50m ahead like it does in GT Sport, quite noticeably so. Bring it on!
 

Thera

Banned
Feb 28, 2019
12,876
France
sirusgaming.com

Playstation 5 Enables Developers to Skip LOD Step Due to SSD Capability

Epic Games and Mooneye Studios CEO Tobias Graff stated that the PlayStation 5 SSD will be so powerful that it will enable developers to skip the LOD step.

I have a quick question about this claim, by skipping LOD are they telling me that a PS5 game can have the same high quality model that it has in an intense cutscene in gameplay aswell now?

I remember everytime i played a game that had a seamless transition from cutscene to gameplay if you look at the character or any other NPC on screen during gameplay their talking animation is awful despite looking amazing in cutscene, can the PS5's SSD finally resolve this issue?
I failed to understand the question.
Do you speak about graphics or animation?
 

Corralx

Member
Aug 23, 2018
1,176
London, UK
So back to the implications on PS5...

What's being implied is that you can just forget all of this. Instead of making 5 different versions of an asset at varying distances (including the character models you pointed out) you can just use your best one. It wouldn't be a universal benefit (there are times you want to shy away from high quality noisy stuff in the distance), but in general this is a game changer for both developers and players.

It goes further than that: we've been talking about LODs, but up to now our hardware can't run the actual assets that artists build in their 3D authoring software (Maya, Blender, Zbrush, etc) This is because the highest quality version of the model you're authoring in that software is usually way too high fidelity and either it would bring the hardware to its knees or would just be an irresponsible use of memory/system resources to display. So inevitably they "bake down" the best versions of an asset into a texture maps and geometry that more align with the system constraints. Now, what was implied in the UE5 demo was just being able to save your highest quality source asset file without the need to export a decimated (reduced geometry) and baked out (a collection of textures) version of it. That is a mind blowing and insane proposition to probably anybody who has worked around this stuff. They had a 30+ million triangle asset in UE5 on display. Instead of every little crack and scratch being baked into a normal map, it was an actual piece of geometry that looks accurate from any angle. Long story short - it means your highest quality model (highest level of detail) in the game will be even higher quality than ever before and take way less futzing around to get it there.

So yeah, there are some pretty huge promises on the horizon in this regard. If you're able to put the pieces together here you can probably also see how this is going to mean extremely high quality assets even at a distance, which will in turn mean we need to stream in a lot more data. Hence the move to lightning fast drive speed and why that is so important this upcoming generation.

Leaving UE5 aside that is removing LODs entirely and using a completely new approach to render and is therefor the exception...

I don't see how we can let go of LODs at all?
Sure the situation will improve, as it's the case with every new generation, as you can push them further and won't have to think much if you have the bandwidth to load them from disk.
But that's not the main reason LODs exists?
You still have to keep the data in RAM and especially draw it each frame. Even more so, LODs can provide better visual clarity reducing the visual noise.
Outside of radical rethinking of the entire pipeline like UE5, I don't think LODs are going anywhere. They'll just be less obvious and distracting.
 

Sekiro

Member
Jan 25, 2019
2,938
United Kingdom
I failed to understand the question.
Do you speak about graphics or animation?
Well both, graphics in terms of distance to players and animation, you know how during gameplay if you look at say two NPC's talking to one another if you look closely the animation kind of looks basic, just there mouth moving up an down look they're lip syncing, as opposed to an in game cutscene where the NPC your talking to has great facial animations.
 

JasoNsider

Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,198
Canada
Leaving UE5 aside that is removing LODs entirely and using a completely new approach to render and is therefor the exception...

I don't see how we can let go of LODs at all?
Sure the situation will improve, as it's the case with every new generation, as you can push them further and won't have to think much if you have the bandwidth to load them from disk.
But that's not the main reason LODs exists?
You still have to keep the data in RAM and especially draw it each frame. Even more so, LODs can provide better visual clarity reducing the visual noise.
Outside of radical rethinking of the entire pipeline like UE5, I don't think LODs are going anywhere. They'll just be less obvious and distracting.
I'm inclined to agree. They still have a lot of uses and will even be required in some cases (you're not going to have an entire distant city with all models loading max detail)

The RAM thing I'm slightly less worried about? At 5.5GB/s you could potentially stream in just what the player is looking at. It's a new paradigm in some ways. But yeah, I'm unsure!
 

Thera

Banned
Feb 28, 2019
12,876
France
Well both, graphics in terms of distance to players and animation, you know how during gameplay if you look at say two NPC's talking to one another if you look closely the animation kind of looks basic, just there mouth moving up an down look they're lip syncing, as opposed to an in game cutscene where the NPC your talking to has great facial animations.
That's not the reason. Budget is.
Custscene are MoCap, that's why you have good lip syncing. Others scene are random lip moving.
Big budget titles like UC4 have awesome lip syncing and facial animation during gameplay.
 

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
13,003
Australia
The implications are even bigger than just that example, but yes that would be a potential big improvement. Beyond that, however, are huge wins in foregoing so many LOD for varying distances. I've been wondering about making a post about this for a while, because I wonder how illuminating stuff like this would be for the average player. Maybe I'll keep it concise for now.

A common strategy for reducing memory and drawing in a game is to use varying "levels of detail" (LOD). Like a billion other things that happen in game development, it's sleight of hand tricks to get us better performance and more detail into the things that count the most - mainly, the stuff right in front of the player. When you hear LOD, they're almost certainly talking about the varying grades of complexity for a single asset at certain distances. This means varying geometry, texturing, and sometimes even shaders at different distances.

Here's an example from Jane Ng's excellent talk on Firewatch.

h6wp7Pc.png


This is a single tree asset that aggressively reduces its detail over distance (actually, as she points out, in this case it changes based on how big the screen is on screen!). So this kind of strategy can be employed on a single tree, but that's not to say you can't use it for huge static areas in your game as well. For example, here is what some of the entire neighborhoods in GTAV look like when they are in the distance (taken from the amazing breakdown from Adrian Courreges)

Xbygnf7.png


rQ9Ol1R.png


And here's the distance it is in the game at the time:

Sg4GhIk.png


There are a lot of different technologies and middleware around getting your LODs right. There are whole strategies about blending between two different LODs. You may have seen before that at certain distances some assets in a game will either "pop" or "fade in" a better version of an asset. Expensive middleware or custom solutions can also help to try to bake out the range of LODs for a single asset to try and help automate. Even with that, sometimes it can be a lot of work to tweak it so at a certain distance it's using more or less geometry or doesn't look absolutely hideous. As Jane deftly shows, it's both science and art to get this right, and can be a ton of work for a single asset.

Even some of the world's best funded and most talented teams can only take this so far. Not only is it a massive pain in the workflow, but beyond that, players have always been able to see the cracks here and there.

So back to the implications on PS5...

What's being implied is that you can just forget all of this. Instead of making 5 different versions of an asset at varying distances (including the character models you pointed out) you can just use your best one. It wouldn't be a universal benefit (there are times you want to shy away from high quality noisy stuff in the distance), but in general this is a game changer for both developers and players.

It goes further than that: we've been talking about LODs, but up to now our hardware can't run the actual assets that artists build in their 3D authoring software (Maya, Blender, Zbrush, etc) This is because the highest quality version of the model you're authoring in that software is usually way too high fidelity and either it would bring the hardware to its knees or would just be an irresponsible use of memory/system resources to display. So inevitably they "bake down" the best versions of an asset into a texture maps and geometry that more align with the system constraints. Now, what was implied in the UE5 demo was just being able to save your highest quality source asset file without the need to export a decimated (reduced geometry) and baked out (a collection of textures) version of it. That is a mind blowing and insane proposition to probably anybody who has worked around this stuff. They had a 30+ million triangle asset in UE5 on display. Instead of every little crack and scratch being baked into a normal map, it was an actual piece of geometry that looks accurate from any angle. Long story short - it means your highest quality model (highest level of detail) in the game will be even higher quality than ever before and take way less futzing around to get it there.

So yeah, there are some pretty huge promises on the horizon in this regard. If you're able to put the pieces together here you can probably also see how this is going to mean extremely high quality assets even at a distance, which will in turn mean we need to stream in a lot more data. Hence the move to lightning fast drive speed and why that is so important this upcoming generation.

There's also really extreme examples like Dark Souls. I was watching a video on how the environments you're very far away from get replaced in the distance by hugely simplified versions that frequently aren't even in the right place, but and if struggle to even call them traditional LOD.

I'd really love to see a remake of Dark Souls for PS5 that took the concept of loading everything in the world in your field of view to the extreme, with the entire setting being fully persistent.
 

Andromeda

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,872
AMD has confirmed that RDNA2 cards will fully support DX12 Ultimate, including sampler feedback.

What Microsoft customised further for Xbox is a tweak for texture filtering when a neighbouring texture page is missing, and is not actually specific to the feedback element. It confused many into thinking the feedback hardware was Xbox specific though.
It was smart. Most people now think XBOX has another custom hardware for SSD similar (for many) to PS5 custom hardware.
 

Issen

Member
Nov 12, 2017
6,873
Leaving UE5 aside that is removing LODs entirely and using a completely new approach to render and is therefor the exception...

I don't see how we can let go of LODs at all?
Sure the situation will improve, as it's the case with every new generation, as you can push them further and won't have to think much if you have the bandwidth to load them from disk.
But that's not the main reason LODs exists?
You still have to keep the data in RAM and especially draw it each frame. Even more so, LODs can provide better visual clarity reducing the visual noise.
Outside of radical rethinking of the entire pipeline like UE5, I don't think LODs are going anywhere. They'll just be less obvious and distracting.
When it comes to drawing it in each frame, virtualized geometry should help with that.

As for the RAM requirements, a lightning fast SSD allows you to quickly swap those assets in and out of memory as needed, but I'm not sure what the approach is when having many unique assets at the same time in a single scene.
 

Slaythe

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,028
sirusgaming.com

Playstation 5 Enables Developers to Skip LOD Step Due to SSD Capability

Epic Games and Mooneye Studios CEO Tobias Graff stated that the PlayStation 5 SSD will be so powerful that it will enable developers to skip the LOD step.

I have a quick question about this claim, by skipping LOD are they telling me that a PS5 game can have the same high quality model that it has in an intense cutscene in gameplay aswell now?

I remember everytime i played a game that had a seamless transition from cutscene to gameplay if you look at the character or any other NPC on screen during gameplay their talking animation is awful despite looking amazing in cutscene, can the PS5's SSD finally resolve this issue?

The cutscenes have manual lightning and custom animations that are using mocap with fidelity.

The reason they look worse in gameplay isn't always technical, it's just that it's one sentence in the midst of gameplay, it wasn't worth spending more time on that scene.

So worse animations and regular lightning.

They can improve both as time goes on, dynamic global illumation should be a revolution that will be efficient on console since ray tracing was going to be a joke (but limited rt+ dgi will be great), and more ingame animations that are polished.

A lot of games on ps4 use different models for cutscenes and gameplay because of the technical requirements, and because features need to be altered / be made more visible, and also it's useless to lose ressources on the highest level of details that you won't see.

Many games have had really solid transitions already but this should make them flawless, yes.
 

pegaso

Member
Oct 28, 2017
338
The implications are even bigger than just that example, but yes that would be a potential big improvement. Beyond that, however, are huge wins in foregoing so many LOD for varying distances. I've been wondering about making a post about this for a while, because I wonder how illuminating stuff like this would be for the average player. Maybe I'll keep it concise for now.

A common strategy for reducing memory and drawing in a game is to use varying "levels of detail" (LOD). Like a billion other things that happen in game development, it's sleight of hand tricks to get us better performance and more detail into the things that count the most - mainly, the stuff right in front of the player. When you hear LOD, they're almost certainly talking about the varying grades of complexity for a single asset at certain distances. This means varying geometry, texturing, and sometimes even shaders at different distances.

Here's an example from Jane Ng's excellent talk on Firewatch.

h6wp7Pc.png


This is a single tree asset that aggressively reduces its detail over distance (actually, as she points out, in this case it changes based on how big the screen is on screen!). So this kind of strategy can be employed on a single tree, but that's not to say you can't use it for huge static areas in your game as well. For example, here is what some of the entire neighborhoods in GTAV look like when they are in the distance (taken from the amazing breakdown from Adrian Courreges)

Xbygnf7.png


rQ9Ol1R.png


And here's the distance it is in the game at the time:

Sg4GhIk.png


There are a lot of different technologies and middleware around getting your LODs right. There are whole strategies about blending between two different LODs. You may have seen before that at certain distances some assets in a game will either "pop" or "fade in" a better version of an asset. Expensive middleware or custom solutions can also help to try to bake out the range of LODs for a single asset to try and help automate. Even with that, sometimes it can be a lot of work to tweak it so at a certain distance it's using more or less geometry or doesn't look absolutely hideous. As Jane deftly shows, it's both science and art to get this right, and can be a ton of work for a single asset.

Even some of the world's best funded and most talented teams can only take this so far. Not only is it a massive pain in the workflow, but beyond that, players have always been able to see the cracks here and there.

So back to the implications on PS5...

What's being implied is that you can just forget all of this. Instead of making 5 different versions of an asset at varying distances (including the character models you pointed out) you can just use your best one. It wouldn't be a universal benefit (there are times you want to shy away from high quality noisy stuff in the distance), but in general this is a game changer for both developers and players.

It goes further than that: we've been talking about LODs, but up to now our hardware can't run the actual assets that artists build in their 3D authoring software (Maya, Blender, Zbrush, etc) This is because the highest quality version of the model you're authoring in that software is usually way too high fidelity and either it would bring the hardware to its knees or would just be an irresponsible use of memory/system resources to display. So inevitably they "bake down" the best versions of an asset into a texture maps and geometry that more align with the system constraints. Now, what was implied in the UE5 demo was just being able to save your highest quality source asset file without the need to export a decimated (reduced geometry) and baked out (a collection of textures) version of it. That is a mind blowing and insane proposition to probably anybody who has worked around this stuff. They had a 30+ million triangle asset in UE5 on display. Instead of every little crack and scratch being baked into a normal map, it was an actual piece of geometry that looks accurate from any angle. Long story short - it means your highest quality model (highest level of detail) in the game will be even higher quality than ever before and take way less futzing around to get it there.

So yeah, there are some pretty huge promises on the horizon in this regard. If you're able to put the pieces together here you can probably also see how this is going to mean extremely high quality assets even at a distance, which will in turn mean we need to stream in a lot more data. Hence the move to lightning fast drive speed and why that is so important this upcoming generation.


Great post, thanks.

I'm not a developer at all, so I may be completely misguided, but it seems to me that it still would be in their best interest to work with different LODs, wouldn't it? Why "waste" RAM space and CPU time with the full-quality assets for stuff you can barely see and won't interact with? You could dedicate that free space the low LOD content gives you to even better assets for the closer or mid-distance stuff, right? The memory pool available isn't massive, but the speed of access to new data is, and that massive bandwidth for asset streaming would mean there would be no (or a lesser) "penalty" when you actually need to load those new full-detail resources.

Not to say that you'd have to be as aggressive with LOD as this gen's consoles are, so you could, of course, load better assets for any quality, finally get rid of popping, vegetation changing shape at 50 meters and all that, but at first glance it seems to me that LOD management would still be a worthwile strategy.
 

Corralx

Member
Aug 23, 2018
1,176
London, UK
When it comes to drawing it in each frame, virtualized geometry should help with that.

As for the RAM requirements, a lightning fast SSD allows you to quickly swap those assets in and out of memory as needed, but I'm not sure what the approach is when having many unique assets at the same time in a single scene.

UE5 approach will help with that, sure.
But it's just UE5, and I don't see it likely for everyone to move to a similar tech any time soon.
It took years of R&D from tens of developers to create that tech demo. Thinking it'll be widespread and pervasive in every engine out there it's a bit naive.
And this is assuming UE5 tech actually works in a full scale game and they can remove it limitations (like no skinned/animated geometry).

For the RAM requirements, sure an SDD makes your RAM pool bigger in a sense by not having to pre-load a ton of stuff, but there's a limit to how much stuff you can get in. SSD latency is still not low enough to handle same frame requests, so you still need to preload stuff, and higher resolution textures and meshes can increase the memory requirement by a lot. As an example, each jump in texture resolution (say from 2k to 4k) quadruple the space requirement.
You can be a lot more aggressive with evicting stuff from RAM and a lot more precise with preload as a couple frames are probably enough to cover that latency but it's not gonna be a "I need to render X now, load it in for the current frame" type of scenario.
 

Issen

Member
Nov 12, 2017
6,873
UE5 approach will help with that, sure.
But it's just UE5, and I don't see it likely for everyone to move to a similar tech any time soon.

It took years of R&D from tens of developers to create that tech demo. Thinking it'll be widespread and pervasive in every engine out there it's a bit naive.
And this is assuming UE5 tech actually works in a full scale game and they can remove it limitations (like no skinned/animated geometry).
IF (and this is hypothetical) UE5's approach works well and provides a gigantic advantage, developers looking to make AAA games will either implement a similar technology or adopt UE5. They couldn't compete otherwise, right?

For the RAM requirements, sure an SDD makes your RAM pool bigger in a sense by not having to pre-load a ton of stuff, but there's a limit to how much stuff you can get in. SSD latency is still not low enough to handle same frame requests, so you still need to preload stuff, and higher resolution textures and meshes can increase the memory requirement by a lot. As an example, each jump in texture resolution (say from 2k to 4k) quadruple the space requirement.
You can be a lot more aggressive with evicting stuff from RAM and a lot more precise with preload as a couple frames are probably enough to cover that latency but it's not gonna be a "I need to render X now, load it in for the current frame" type of scenario.
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking as well. You can get stuff to RAM much faster and be more selective, but if you need it all at once for a given frame, it's gonna need to be all in RAM. And if all of it is massively high quality, well, the expected amount of RAM is just not gonna cut it.

Unless there's something else I'm missing.
 
Jun 18, 2018
1,100
A common strategy for reducing memory and drawing in a game is to use varying "levels of detail" (LOD). Like a billion other things that happen in game development, it's

There are a lot of different technologies and middleware around getting your LODs right. There are whole strategies about blending between two different LODs. You may have seen before that at certain distances some assets in a game will either "pop" or "fade in" a better version of an asset. Expensive middleware or custom solutions can also help to try to bake out the range of LODs for a single asset to try and help automate.

To confirm, LOD and Mip levels actually use up more memory. You need to employ streaming to load / unload certain LOD & / or Mip levels on the fly to free up memory.

It's worth noting as well that as resolution goes up, the amount of LOD and / or Mip levels per asset may also increase, sacrificing memory for more efficient performance.

Beyond all that, there is one area relating to LODs that I think will still be important in the future: Heirarcal LODs.

As well as an asset, such as a lamp post, having its own individual LOD, it's common for close by assets to be grouped and have unique LOD mesh, materials and / or textures generated for them. For example, a street corner could have a road mesh, lamp post mesh, bin mesh, 2 building facade meshes and a roof. These meshes may have some individual LODs they switch down to at set distances, but at one set distance the whole group is replaced by a single, (offline) generated mesh that represents them all.

You can then group these meshes together, generate a unique LOD for that and then do the same to that new layer of LODs. It's infinitely scalable, but limited by storage and I/O speeds.

This is a great way of cutting down on draw calls and retaining some geometry detail that would be lost if you LOD'd out meshes individual.

I don't see this method going away because otherwise, it's a real memory hog to have a very detailed mesh stored in memory when it's taking us just 1 pixel on screen - even if the GPU can process it efficiently.
 

Corralx

Member
Aug 23, 2018
1,176
London, UK
IF (and this is hypothetical) UE5's approach works well and provides a gigantic advantage, developers looking to make AAA games will either implement a similar technology or adopt UE5. They couldn't compete otherwise, right?

Yeah for sure, and I think that's the way forward at least to a certain degree (which is actually funny because it throws away the entire graphics pipeline and all the improvements that we recently made like mesh/primitive shader).
It's probably not for everyone tho, a lot of games and studios don't really need that kind of tech, while it makes perfect sense in a flexible middleware like UE.
But even if a studio wanna move to something similar, it's not gonna happen overnight, it's a complete and radical shift and a huge engineering effort across all departments. It's an end of generation thing if not next gen.
We need to prove it works and it's the right way forward, and then we need to rewrite existing tech to work with it.
Might be doable for projects starting with new tech in the next few years, targeting the second part of the gen.
 

Pheonix

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
5,990
St Kitts
Leaving UE5 aside that is removing LODs entirely and using a completely new approach to render and is therefor the exception...

I don't see how we can let go of LODs at all?
Sure the situation will improve, as it's the case with every new generation, as you can push them further and won't have to think much if you have the bandwidth to load them from disk.
But that's not the main reason LODs exists?
You still have to keep the data in RAM and especially draw it each frame. Even more so, LODs can provide better visual clarity reducing the visual noise.
Outside of radical rethinking of the entire pipeline like UE5, I don't think LODs are going anywhere. They'll just be less obvious and distracting.
What we are seeing in UE5, is just a use case implementation of how LODs as we know today become redundant on the PS5.

Its not that there isn't still LOD scaling going on, it's just that now it's dynamic and tied to the size of the model on the screen in relation to the amount of pixels its taking up/distance.

Basically, its saying you have just one version of your model as opposed to 4 or 5 versions (less work) and the engine would dynamically scale that model by increasing or reducing the triangles that make it up on a frame by frame basis (also less work).

Ths however is just UE5's implementation, other engines may still use traditional LOD systems if they ant and even those would still work a lot better the PS5. But doing it the way Epic did is basically going to save time and reduce game sizes.
 

Corralx

Member
Aug 23, 2018
1,176
London, UK
What we are seeing in UE5, is just a use case implementation of how LODs as we know today become redundant on the PS5.

Its not that there isn't still LOD scaling going on, it's just that now it's dynamic and tied to the size of the model on the screen in relation to the amount of pixels its taking up/distance.

Basically, its saying you have just one version of your model as opposed to 4 or 5 versions (less work) and the engine would dynamically scale that model by increasing or reducing the triangles that make it up on a frame by frame basis (also less work).

Ths however is just UE5's implementation, other engines may still use traditional LOD systems if they ant and even those would still work a lot better the PS5. But doing it the way Epic did is basically going to save time and reduce game sizes.

I don't disagree, but to get there you need a huge engineering effort and a complete shift in paradigm across all departments.
Not everyone will need that or will be willing to go that route.
Even UE5 is not removing the old way and will just provides both.
In fact I expect at least in this generation the vast majority of games to stick with more traditional pipelines.
There are already huge improvements with faster CPU, faster disks, and all the new features of RDNA2.
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,842
Generaly remaster for me means there are minor changes like resolution bump, frames, better textures and in situation with back compatibility should be free or just don't do it. Don't have any problems with full price for well done remakes.

Ahh, gotcha. I wasn't grokking that kind of disintction between 'Remaster' and 'Remake'. I think we'll have to see game-by-game what those things really mean, as I wonder if marketing departments (or journalists sharing rumours) would gravitate towards any kind of standard for using the terms so specifically.

But yeah, I agree - by this terminology, going forward, things will need to be nearer to 'remake' to justify the separate purchase.
 
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