Oct 28, 2017
2,719
Siloam Springs
I like big dogs, but don't trust most big dog owners. I have had some bad experiences (that did not end up injury) with big dogs of bad big dog owners.

The worst was my Dad's best friends German Shepard. He would bring it over to our house (starting when I was 5) and the friend said sick him and pointed at me. That dog would try to chase after me in my own house until I was 13 (then it acted as if it was my best friend).
 

joecanada

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,651
Canada
To be fair.... yes.

The argument for regulating/penalizing pit bull ownership shouldn't be based on an inherent murderous nature of the animal, but in just the sheer amount of absolutely irresponsible idiots who own them.
Agreed but as I pointed out before you can't single out pits. When I was a kid every shithead had a Doberman or German shepherd , then it was Rottweiler now pits. Regulation should be aimed at large breeds and shitheads.

And no no-one cares that you once got bitten by a Chihuahua... your toddler isn't at danger of having it's face ripped off by a 10 lb dog. I see this argument all the time. But I also don't see pits as the problem but the logical outcome of a problem , shitheads
 

Crocks

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
963
It's not irrational, though. It's entirely down to shitty owners, but if you're a shitty owner with a Jack Russel or a Labrador, their jaws aren't going to lock on to somebody as they shake them with incredible force. They've been bred to be incredibly dangerous, and so it's not an irrational outcome that they cause more damage.
 

Watership

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,156
It's about potential. I love pitbulls mostly. Beautiful animals, I also love chocolate and golden retrievers. Introduce a shitty, horrible owner to those two breeds, and I would run in fear from the pitbull, 10 times out of ten. There is more potential in that breed for damage than in others.
 

Cat Party

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,577
It's not irrational, though. It's entirely down to shitty owners, but if you're a shitty owner with a Jack Russel or a Labrador, their jaws aren't going to lock on to somebody as they shake them with incredible force. They've been bred to be incredibly dangerous, and so it's not an irrational outcome that they cause more damage.
Yup. Nothing irrational at all in being afraid of pit bulls.
 

Deleted member 8468

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
9,109
Pit bulls are great, as are most dogs if they're raised in a loving environment and trained correctly. No bad dogs, just bad owners.

We've had a bunch of pit bull threads before, they're almost always full of hot takes from people who don't own dogs.
 

SliceSabre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,556
I get what you're saying but Pit Bulls attract the shittiest owners and thus I'm extra cautious around pit bulls.
 

SapientWolf

Member
Nov 6, 2017
6,565
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States

20180914_Deadly_Dogs_Forbes.jpg



They're dangerous. Boil it down to owner or breed, they're a strong dog and can do a lot of damage. Their reputation is well earned.
Doberman is pretty low, considering how massive and strong they can be.
 

SleeperBWG

Member
Dec 18, 2018
209
I feel the same way. I had a Pit and have been around quite a few of them. If they are raised correctly they can be some of the most loving and loyal dogs you could ever hope to have. When you train a Pit well the biggest problem you have is they are TOO smart and can actually be spiteful when you leave, but as someone who has had multiple dogs throughout my life, raising a Pit and having one as your companion can be a very rewarding experience few other breeds can match.

Pits have the unfortunate problem of having powerful jaws that lock down and causes major damage when they are trained badly so they get all the negative attention for that even though a small percentage of the dogs actually ever do anything like that.

Its the same with all dogs, the owner is what makes the dog a good dog or bad dog. Pits are just up there in the higher levels of potential damage they can do if raised poorly.
 

Enduin

You look 40
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,576
New York
About this particular chart:

If a dog attack happens, and a police officer can't really tell what the breed is, they will usually pick pit bull.

Source: Me, who dealt with crime statistics in a previous life
Added to this something like half or more of dogs in the US are mixed breed. Breed alone is shaky as is for determining behavioral characteristics when it comes to purebreds, but once you have a dog with 2+ lineages how are you expected to even start to predict such things or assign different behaviors to be from one side or the other? So say said dog in an attack does in fact have pitbull lineage, odds are that's not all unless the dog was acquired from a reputable breeder of purebred ASTs, so are we now applying the one drop rule to dogs with pitbull lineage?
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,384
So do shitty dog owners just tend to choose Pit Bulls or what?
There are 4 to 5 breeds of dogs that are classified as 'pit bulls'

So when you hear "more pit bull attacks than any other breed" what you're really hearing is "the combined total of attacks by these 4-5 breeds of dog are greater than the total of any one other breed."

And that's assuming that the person reporting it can accurately spot any of the pit bull breeds as opposed to just calling any aggressive dog a pit bull (they can't).
 

gaogaogao

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,679
a pitbull put a very large hole in my index finger that had to be stitched up. I might not "hate" pitbulls, but I have reason to dislike them
you can tell me it's all about the owner and how they were raised, but a different breed wouldn't respond that way.
 

CopyOfACopy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,082
you gonna sleep with a lion just because it hasn't decided to kill you yet

I love puppers but im not gonna keep an animal in my house that every member cant go 1 to 1 with
 
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Soupman Prime

The Fallen
Nov 8, 2017
8,662
Boston, MA
The owner of the house where I used to live had pitbulls. Me and my sister would always walk them with no issue, feed them and everything else.

Never had an issue with them until one day I was in the backyard with the male called Cowboy and he was super aggressive for some reason, I stood behind a chair while he lunged and barked at me. Left without getting hurt but wasn't the same with them, didn't feel comfortable.
 

Deleted member 11822

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,644
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States

20180914_Deadly_Dogs_Forbes.jpg



They're dangerous. Boil it down to owner or breed, they're a strong dog and can do a lot of damage. Their reputation is well earned.

We recently had to get a brand new insurance policy / umbrella policy because we adopted a German Shepherd / lab mix puppy from a rescue in TN. My wife filled out the ' what's changed ' section of our policy and added new dog Shepard mix.
About a week later I get a call from VT Mutual asking specifically what kind of Shepard mix it was. I said German Shepherd / Lab, and quickly realized where this was going.
I asked "would you like his DNA results?", "No", "would you like paperwork showing his 40+ hours of training?", "No".
Our policy was made ineligible for renewal the following week.

It drives me nuts that people just assume a breed of dog is dangerous. Garbage owners are the problem not the breed.
 

Stooge

Member
Oct 29, 2017
11,507
Yeah man, but the issue with these sorts of powerful attack dogs (and it's not just pits) is they can do serious damage and kill kids.

I get apartment complexes not wanting them around. I've had several pits, dobies and shepards be total dicks and try and fight my shiba at a dog park. I've had to kick the living shit out of some assholes Catahoula because it snapped and decided it wanted to kill my doggo. My doggo can be a prick at times, but the worst you are going to get from an angry small dog is a nipped heel and a bit finger. Not great, but no ones going to die from it. I usually won't let her near kids she doesn't know because kids can be pricks to dogs and piss them off (pulling, poking, chasing).

The thing is *any* dog can snap. The sweetest dog can lose their shit, be scared, whatever. They are animals.

I completely get not wanting a dog around that is large enough to kill another animal/small human if and when they do. Bite force, size of the animal (i.e. muscular dogs that are more powerful than some humans) are a factor.

So, like I get that everyone has a sweet pitt bull, but it's pretty reasonable not to want to hang around an unknown large dog.
 

DJ_Lae

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,934
Edmonton
I don't necessarily agree with the dogbite graph either because I recall it being compiled from news articles and those have a tendency to call a lot of dogs 'pitbull style' or mixed breed or something.

I also don't buy the stats that come from pitbull loving sites in the same way that vaccine information from vaccinechoicecanada.com weirds me out. And I'm not suggesting that statistics from one Canadian city can be applied, but I was curious enough to actually pay for someone at Edmonton city hall to send me PDF scans of randomly formatted printed tables that were a pain in the ass to transcribe because I figured the animal registry here might actually result in something interesting - or relatively comparable, at least, as it would help omit random cross-bred dogs or unregistered or questionable breeds (tagged as Unknown, and I'm sure news reports would call at least some of those pitbulls).

Excuse the plain-ass Tableau stuff.

YoTzCYZ.png


I have all breeds entered, too, so where you still have a lot of, say, labrador attacks, people own way more of them.

uIxF3j5.png


I know it can't be applied everywhere but here in Edmonton, at least, I found that pitbull breeds accounted for most serious attacks, period, plus was the breed most likely to cause an attack based on how many are owned. German Shepherds and Labs also attacked a lot of people but at a far, far lower rate.

Also of note - no human deaths by dog attack here in the last five years.
 

Stooge

Member
Oct 29, 2017
11,507
We recently had to get a brand new insurance policy / umbrella policy because we adopted a German Shepherd / lab mix puppy from a rescue in TN. My wife filled out the ' what's changed ' section of our policy and added new dog Shepard mix.
About a week later I get a call from VT Mutual asking specifically what kind of Shepard mix it was. I said German Shepherd / Lab, and quickly realized where this was going.
I asked "would you like his DNA results?", "No", "would you like paperwork showing his 40+ hours of training?", "No".
Our policy was made ineligible for renewal the following week.

It drives me nuts that people just assume a breed of dog is dangerous. Garbage owners are the problem not the breed.

Insurance companies don't ban dogs because they are mean. They have statistically relevant data about breed types and risk.
 

Stinkles

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,459
About this particular chart:

If a dog attack happens, and a police officer can't really tell what the breed is, they will usually pick pit bull.

Source: Me, who dealt with crime statistics in a previous life


That's not a source. If you dealt with statistics you also know silly that is.

The chart also doesn't include the overall population for scale - Labs and Mastiffs might look equally dangerous if you glance at the chart with that absent. And obviously the ratio is insane.

Anyway this conversation is doomed because people will talk past the underlying issue because everyone here is the most dedicated and responsible pet owner ever.

And I think most people understand that "pitbull" refers to a wide range of large muscular terriers (and derived mutts) rather than the AKC definition - including some of the policemen you carefully detailed. The chart above is meaningful because most people can't tell the difference between a pure bred pitbull and that range of larger terriers. So if it makes everyone comfortable - a few pictures of the sort of dog it means would work just as well. But it doesn't make the chart useless. There's plainly a disproportionate issue with the range of dogs it infers. Your theoretical Cops aren't misidentifying Yorkies and German Shepherds.

And it's not completely irrational to be more afraid of "pitbulls" than other breeds, because Pitbull (or any macho dog breed including Rottweilers etc) is much more likely to be owned by an idiot. Anyone who really knows dogs can look at any breed and get some sense of the dogs temperament from its bearing and behavior. I'll even agree with the straw man that "Chihuahuas are more likely to bite you" and indeed small nervous dogs are just as likely to have shitty owners - but a lot less likely to knock over the fence or dig under a gate or be abandoned to run feral in a weird part of town.

The only breeds that actually make me a little nervous even if they're on a leash is Rodhesian Ridgebacks and one or two outher giant mastiffs - because they also have a lot of irresponsible or macho owners who can't control them.


The dogs themselves are not to blame for this. Nor is their breed. But the data is meaningful even if you believe the semantics are flawed. Just as it is not irrational to think a minivan is going to sit blissfully unaware that the light has changed to green, or that a Mercedes G Wagon is not in fact going to come to a complete stop at the stopsign. It's extremely unscientific, and many times you might be wrong, but it's not without basis.

The overall breed category is meaningful for terriers, because they have a clamp and worry instinct that's dialed up high - so when they DO bite, they hang on and shake a lot more than other breeds, because they were designed to for hunting. That's why Jack Russells show up so disproportionately int he chart above in terms of the severity of the bites they inflict.

I've also yet to hear a good argument against making all non-working pet breeding require the inclusion of temperament and gentleness as an aspect of their persona. Obedience is only a useful trait if the owners are going to train them properly. That's why the AKC (and other organization's definitions) criteria are kind of a joke in that regard, because they makes no allowance for the very real problem of shitty owners and assumes a well fed, properly socialized and trained animal. There's also a separate issue of them including utterly cruel health-impacting aesthetics that create dogs with hip problems and breathing difficulties and so on, on purpose, for looks.

At least that way when feral dogs knock up other people's Labradors, the resulting offspring might have a shot at ebing chill and healthy.

Like making cars with no airbags because you think only careful law abiding drivers are going to have them.
 

Stooge

Member
Oct 29, 2017
11,507
The "that's not a pitbull" is the "define assault rifle" of Pittbull rights.

Like, who cares. We all know you mean a large terrier with a big jaw. When speaking with non-experts (i.e. regular people) they are going to use common-use vernacular and not care about technical accuracy.
 

Cilidra

A friend is worth more than a million Venezuelan$
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,493
Ottawa
No matter the breed, dog bite mortality is
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States

20180914_Deadly_Dogs_Forbes.jpg



They're dangerous. Boil it down to owner or breed, they're a strong dog and can do a lot of damage. Their reputation is well earned.
Considering the number of dogs (including the number of Pit Bulls) in the US, it's still a ridiculously low risk of death.
Odds of dying from accidental injuries

Being murdered by firearm is just a bit more than 400 more likely than being killed by a dog... This is not counting suicide by firearm or accidental discharge.
Drug overdose is just about 1700 time more likely. Alcohol related death is higher than drug overdose.

On the other side, having a dog increase your lifespan in a much more significant amount. Reducing your risk of heart disease by 11% means that you are 2000 time more likely not to die from a heart disease because you own a dog than to be killed by a dog.
Health benefit of owning a dog

There a lot more things people should worry about banning before banning dogs (even just specifics breeds).
 

Stooge

Member
Oct 29, 2017
11,507
in this instance I just found it funny. Especially when I mentioned all the obedience training, and my willingness to send them all the documentation.

Yeah, but insurance companies don't operate that way. They look at actuarial risk and not individual risk.

Try insuring a house with a free-standing wood burning stove. My grandparents house has one and they have to go through a small local insurance company and pay out the nose. The big guys won't touch it.
 

bane833

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
4,530
While Pit Bulls aren't inherently evil they certainly are too much to handle for the average dog owner. Sure there are Pits that couldn't hurt a fly but on average the breed simply has way more energy and drive than your typical Golden Retriever. The breed was selected for big game hunting and fighting for centuries after all.
 

Saganator

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,303
My family has a poorly socialized dog that they're working on, and unexpected encounters with other dogs can be a massive hassle. He won't attack or anything, but he's still learning to not flip his shit at another dog. Not quite there yet.
This is kinda the case with our lab/pit mix. He got parvo as puppy before we got him. Shelter told us he was in quarantine for 4 months and we were getting him like the second day he was out. We think he missed out crucial time for socializing. In retrospect we probably should've tried to see if he could stay at the shelter for a couple more weeks to get him used to other dogs and people. We're trying to socialize him but we don't really want to "test" with random people, so whenever I take him out I try pretty hard to avoid people. He doesn't go crazy but I'm mainly worried about the people who assume every dog is one they should try to pet.
 

Deleted member 17658

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,468
My neighbor's pit bull killed my dog. Most people do not train them properly.
I'm sorry to hear that

My opinion on this is that it's not irrational to fear pit pulls but I put the blame on the owner rather than the dog to irrational hate on the dog is not warranted. There is this older woman who walks her dog down my street whenever I go to walk to work on who owns a Rottweiler. That thing barks at everyone and everything that gets near her and him. She hastily apologizes while tugging it's leash to keep it from breaking free. (shits fucking terrifying walking by them). Do I blame the dog or the extremely timid small person who has no business owning a dog breed that is designed to herd animals?
 
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Lylo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,178
Don't let me down Era, where's the pic of the heroic pitbull who swan 5 miles to bit a child?
 

TheRagnCajun

Member
Oct 29, 2017
590
Even if the issue is negligent owners, I'd still rather those negligent owners have pomeranians instead of pitbulls.

What's irrational is using anecdotes to argue that pitbulls are safe, which is what this usually boils down to. The only argument for keeping this breed as pets is anecdotal stories about owning one and what a sweetheart it was.
 

SleepehSheep

Member
Oct 26, 2017
175
Most pitbull owners from where I live are shitty people. They just want to look tough and treat the dog like shit. They even like to cut the ears into points to make them look more dangerous. They get them for sole reason of wanting an attack dog.
 

Schlorgan

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,932
Salt Lake City, Utah

Enduin

You look 40
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,576
New York
The "that's not a pitbull" is the "define assault rifle" of Pittbull rights.

Like, who cares. We all know you mean a large terrier with a big jaw. Who cares if there is a technically wrong issue.
Because most people are not making that distinction and are assigning behavioral traits and likelihood of attacks as if it's inherent to a single breed or breed type's natural character and not simply recognizing the physical potential to do harm which spans many breed types not just pitbull types.

As well such a distinction doesn't really mean anything as is because it still doesn't address the core issue behind dog attacks, which falls to the owner via proper socialization, training and neutering. Which leads to ineffectual laws like breed specific bans that do not reduce attacks and has led to tens of thousands of dogs abandoned and left to shelters where they're mostly likely destroyed due to inaccurate stigma surrounding them.

https://www.snopes.com/news/2016/10/25/bsl-and-dog-bites/
 

Jmdajr

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,542
How much work does it take for them to become "sweet" dogs. Does a minimum amount of neglect lead to worse consequences than the average dog?

I just think if the average person can't raise then without consequences they shouldn't be allowed.

Also, cute they are not.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,371
I don't think an animal with such a strong bite should be breed as a pet.
'But my pit bull is good and would never hurt me'

Oh yeah maybe not you, but the tiny dog across the street or that kid with the noisy annoying skates? It only takes seconds before the dog goes out of your control and destroys whichever makes it mad. With so many other breeds and mixed dogs you could choose from, why the fuck do you go for a pitbull?

Not one, not two, a lot of dog owners in my town tell me how another popular breed (German Shepherd) has attacked/killed their dogs for no good reason. I'm sure your German shepherds are the sweetest things too, but I'm not walking anywhere near one with my little chihuahua on a leash, not because I don't like German shepherds, but because I don't know how much of an asshole the owner is and how well behaved the dog is. Hearing the typical "oh I'm sorry he NEVER does that" after mauling my dog may come at a bad time. It would be easier if that breed, didn't, you know have the ability to crush my dog in half. Even if my dog wanted, worst thing he could do is a little bite that would require a band aid to heal.

It's like keeping a loaded gun in your coffee table and expecting nothing bad will ever come out of it. No thanks, like many other human experiments that are just making dogs life's miserable (shar peis, pugs, French bulldogs) pit bulls probably should have never been bred in the first place
 

Burrman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,633
My Pomeranian thinks he's a Pit Bull. Thank god he isn't. I swear he only enjoys going for walks just to start beef with any other dog outside. So embarrassing but I love the little fucker
 

Jmdajr

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,542
Even if the issue is negligent owners, I'd still rather those negligent owners have pomeranians instead of pitbulls.

What's irrational is using anecdotes to argue that pitbulls are safe, which is what this usually boils down to. The only argument for keeping this breed as pets is anecdotal stories about owning one and what a sweetheart it was.
I know someone that gives their pitbull Xanax to keep them from going into Berserker mode. XANAX!
 

mikeys_legendary

The Fallen
Sep 26, 2018
3,012
Pitbulls are friendly as fuck unless the owner is a psychopath.

Unfortunately, psychopaths who want dogs tend to go for Pitbulls.
 
Nov 17, 2017
12,864
They have that reputation for a reason. Crappy owner or not, I'm not going to be able to tell at first glance so I'll be careful around any of them. Maybe that's unfair to the dog but I don't think it cares.
 

KDR_11k

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
5,235
Don't we have threads on this regularly? In theory a pit bull may be safe but on average they're owned by assholes and dangerous because of that. Same with guns and nuclear power, theoretically safe but not in the hands of the average owner.