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pswii60

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Oct 27, 2017
26,693
The Milky Way
"Are Xbox Series X developers being held back by Xbox One?"

Phil Spencer:
"Frankly, held back is a meme that gets created by people who are too caught up in device competition," says Microsoft's executive vice president of gaming, and Xbox chief, Phil Spencer. "I just look at Windows. It's almost certain if the developer is building a Windows version of their game, then the most powerful and highest fidelity version is the PC version. You can even see that with some of our first-party console games going to PC, even from our competitors, that the richest version is the PC version. Yet the PC ecosystem is the most diverse when it comes to hardware, when you think about the CPUs and GPUs from years ago that are there. "

"Yes, every developer is going to find a line and say that this is the hardware that I am going to support, but the diversity of hardware choice in PC has not held back the highest fidelity PC games on the market. The highest fidelity PC games rival anything that anybody has ever seen in video games. So this idea that developers don't know how to build games, or game engines, or ecosystems, that work across a set of hardware... there's a proof point in PC that shows that's not the case.

"That said, we're shipping Xbox Series X this year. I'm playing it every day at home, and it is different to playing on an Xbox One X. We should applaud the work that is going on with the SSD, and the work that is going on with audio, to pick some of the areas that Jim [Ryan] and Mark [Cerny] and the stuff that [PlayStation] is focused on. We should applaud load times and fidelity of scenes and framerate and input latency, and all of these things that we've focused on with the next generation. But that should not exclude people from being able to play. That's our point. How do we create an ecosystem where if you want to play an Xbox game, we're going to give you a way to go play it?"

Matt Booty:
"Our teams have a pretty good skillset on architecting things so that it is scalable and putting that into the hands of players. We are so tightly connected to the hardware team and the platform team, that I don't ever worry about taking advantage of the high end. I don't think we'll be in a situation where our teams won't be making the most of what is given to them. In fact, I don't even know how we'd do that [laughs]. Keeping a game team away from new hardware, new features and new things, that is where they're naturally going to gravitate.

"The work will be in making sure we put controls into the hands of the players. So if you're running this game on an Xbox One, is frame rate important to you? Is visual fidelity important to you? Let's give you those options. And I think we are going to see more of that, where we will be able to bring some of our experience of developing for PC to bear."

Tim Schafer
"Before consoles, we did PC, and you end up thinking about your game in a platform agnostic way. You think about the game and what you want it to be, and the game is smart enough to fit onto the destination. If that's current generation or next generation, it'll be a little different and you'd take advantage of both platforms, but in the end the heart of the game is the same. If you don't do that... you could say our games are about narrative and comedy, which works on any console. But as we've found out from the PC market, if someone invests a lot of money into their system, they want to see you using it. They want the infinite resolution and stuff like that. You need to think about that kind of stuff."
 

Navidson REC

Member
Oct 31, 2017
3,431
And that's really all there is to it.

Can't wait for next gen!

EDIT: Also, I just love the sheer emphasis on inclusiveness in those last few sentences.
 

Strings

Member
Oct 27, 2017
31,513
Eh, I think games not being built around SSDs definitely holds them back in a sense. Lockhart having that means it won't hold anything back, but exclusives bridging Xbox One and Series X for a while is a bummer.
 

HellofaMouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,210
no, but the existence of consoles did. dont devs used to hold certain versions of a game back to achieve 'parity' between all versions? wonder if they still do that.

*im not saying they are gonna do the same for lockhart, but what phil's saying isnt exactly true for every game. People are worried for a reason, because it totally happens for some games
 
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Dust

C H A O S
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,489
Problem with PC gaming is precisely because of the extreme low-max ends and how it scales next to optimizing games.

What is he talking about?
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,793
PC can boost framerate/resolution and things like that, but can't change design decisions.

Like, FF VII on a SSD will still have tiny spaces as loading.
 

Soap

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,282
I mean, yes, but that is because there is an expectation pc gamers update more regularly and there is no platform holder to worry about public perception when games start running like shit (or don't run at all) on worse hardware. If games run poorly on the lower spec Xbox then consumers will aim their ire at MS.
 

supercommodore

Prophet of Truth
Member
Apr 13, 2020
4,200
UK
YEA, and specifically if the engine has a lot going on AI wise that needs a good amount of cpu power on top of physics. Comparing xbox one to current mid-low end PC now is not 1:1 phil.

Yeah but if you assume he is responding to how people are framing Lockhart as "holding back" next gen his statement makes a lot of sense. Lockhart has same CPU, SSD as XSX. As for the Xbox one I think his statement is a bit more muddy. Things will obviously have to scale well to work there. Big studios like 343 might have the resources to change the number of enemies etc. on every level in a careful way, essentially making 2 versions of the game. As 3rd party developers can target next gen only, I'm not that concerned. First party should have the resources to make it work.
 

Mula

Banned
Jan 18, 2019
280
hm we don't know what games would look like if there were only a 2080ti and ssd's in the pc sector
i think there would definitely be more games with ray tracing
 

seroun

Member
Oct 25, 2018
4,466
I mean, yes, but that is because there is an expectation pc gamers update more regularly and there is no platform holder to worry about public perception when games start running like shit (or don't run at all) on worse hardware. If games run poorly on the lower spec Xbox then consumers will aim their ire at MS.

PC gamers update more regularly?
 

Kolx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,505
But what about SSD? PC game design have to take in account PC with HDD. Star Citizen require SSD for that reason. Not to mention even PC games have a limit to how far they can go. I can't run most recent games on my 670, can I? at least not with a decent frame rate.
 

DanteMenethil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,067
PC gaming is absolutely held back by hardware choice and diversity. There is a reason why games only take a couple of gb of ram out of my 32gig (some games could load their entire installation into ram) and there's a reason why no games takes advantage of an nvme. The only PC games I can think of that said "fuck it" and did not held themselves back for the high-end is Crysis 1 and StarCitizen.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
Dunno about that.

Look at Crysis to Crysis 2. One was made for PC and the other was made for consoles. Sure Crysis 1 did come to PS3 and Xbox but it was a really restricted port. Meanwhile Crysis 2 was a downgrade from the first game in level design and graphics.

Not all PCs can run all games and it is not required so you can make the game anyway you like. On consoles you have to make the game work on all consoles which is something you need to think about while making the game.
 

christocolus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,932
Couldn't agree more. There is a lot more in that article. So many interesting quotes. Well done GBiz. great interview with Phil and the XGS team
 

Deleted member 9584

User requested account closure
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Oct 26, 2017
7,132
hm we don't know what games would look like if there were only a 2080ti and ssd's in the pc sector
My prediction would be they would be exact same way they are now. We don't get indie games and small budget big publisher games because of low end hardware, we get them because of development cost and dev time.

Everyone having the best hardware won't magically mean all games will be this graphical powerhouse with crazy AI and advanced tech.
 

PS9

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,066
You can do new forms of gameplay when you are designing with an SSD as a baseline.

Xbox One and Xbox One X don't have SSDs.

Xbox is supporting Xbox One and Xbox One X for two years after next-gen launch.

I don't see how Microsoft Studios exclusives WONT be held back a few years. It just doesn't make logical sense. A HDD is not an SSD.
 

Nostradamus

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,280
I mean sure anything can be brute forced with the appropriate hardware. The point of debate is whether a console with a set power level is held back or not when designing for multiple devices. So I don't see how Phil's comment is relevant.
 

Fizie

Member
Jan 21, 2018
2,852
Looking at all the next generation games we've seen so far (including the next gen exclusives), its evident that early year 1 games won't even be close to taking full advantage of the hardware in the next gen consoles, so there's really no need to be concerned about cross gen games existing.
 

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,611
Obviously flawed argument.

"The best looking games are PC games" does not contradict "low end PC hardware holds back PC games".

Almost all games are constrained by the diversity of the hardware they are built for. This is countered by the fact that building a game that runs on a wide range of hardware improves sales which can more than make up for additional costs of developing scalable games. At the same time... it is far harder to maximise what you can get out of a piece of hardware when it is one of many.
 

Akai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,052
I don't see how Microsoft Studios exclusives WONT be held back a few years. It just doesn't make logical sense. A HDD is not an SSD.

I mean sure anything can be brute forced with the appropriate hardware. The point of debate is whether a console with a set power level is held back or not when designing for multiple devices. So I don't see how Phil's comment is relevant.

The term you are searching for is called optimization.
 

Thiago

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,671
Having the game design constrained by old ass Jaguar CPU and slow HDDs is not something good, no matter how a corporate head tries to spin it in favor of its product.
 

Kolx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,505
You can do new forms of gameplay when you are designing with an SSD as a baseline.

Xbox One and Xbox One X don't have SSDs.

Xbox is supporting Xbox One and Xbox One X for two years after launch.

I don't see how Microsoft Studios exclusives WONT be held back a few years. It just doesn't make logical sense. A HDD is not an SSD.
Not to mention they'd have to run these games on a 1.3tf GCN console. There has to be a point where scaling can't work, and you can't make the game work on a weaker console without looking like complete shit, it's not worth it anymore (or of course hold back the powerful hardware so the game can run decently on the weakest console).
 
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pswii60

pswii60

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,693
The Milky Way
Xbox is supporting Xbox One and Xbox One X for two years after next-gen launch.
No. Up to November 2021.

That how long all their games will work 'up and down' their devices. After that I'd guess we'll still see XBO games where it makes sense for GP subs but there will be XSX exclusives from their studios.

Also isn't it nice that they're not just forcing games to be next-gen only for the sake of it? No reason why the likes of Sackboy Adventures or Returnal couldn't be releasing on PS4 for example.
 

Unkindled

Member
Nov 27, 2018
3,247
It has been held back not all game's have ray tracing because it's not universal on PC hardware. SSD has been there on PC ages ago but no one has truly developer a game around it for fear of losing out HDD players. DX12 hasn't been universally implemented in all game's because of windows 10 requirement etc etc
 

RedSparrows

Prophet of Regret
Member
Feb 22, 2019
6,516
I can certainly see logic to suggest how some games could be held back, and others not.

But I also think how this actually plays out on the ground is the thing that matters. How many games early in a generation take full advantage of certain things, how many workarounds are possible (e.g. Forza Horizon 2), and how what actually is made conforms to PR speak AND fan speculation alike: after all, stuff like The Medium is next-gen only (not 1st party, but still there), and as pswii60 says above, certain PS5 games don't appear to be only possible next-gen - indeed some are not, like that cat game or the little-girl-in-pretty-woods game.

I think that, in the wash, this will be far, far, far less of a drama than some people seem to want it to be.
 

Deleted member 18161

user requested account closure
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Oct 27, 2017
4,805
True, although a game built around a 2080Ti with a blistering fast 8 core CPU and an SSD would have many more possibilities though from game logic to fidelity.
 

show me your skeleton

#1 Bugsnax Fan
Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,650
skeleton land
I mean, yes, but that is because there is an expectation pc gamers update more regularly and there is no platform holder to worry about public perception when games start running like shit (or don't run at all) on worse hardware. If games run poorly on the lower spec Xbox then consumers will aim their ire at MS.
will they?
there's two versions of the xbox one and two versions of the playstation and i don't see much ire thrown to the platform holders in regards to indivdual games and their performance, it's instead pointed towards the game devs
 

Nostradamus

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,280
The term you are searching for is called optimization.
Optimisation when talking about multiple platforms requires sacrifices though. Essentially you select a game design that allows for optimisation on multiple platforms. Bruteforcing is when you design sth without necessarily thinking of specific hardware limits and then identify the hardware that can run it. So when designing for multiple platforms you either do one or the other and question is whether any of these approaches are on the same level of game designed from the ground up for a specific device. That's why I don't find Phil's argument valid in this case. I'm not picking a side on the debate (if a developer says it doesn't matter, I'm fine with it), I'm just making an observation.
 

1.21Gigawatts

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,278
Munich
Considering how much more powerful PCs are compared to consoles, yet how the best looking games are often console exclusives, I just don't buy that.
 

MysticGon

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,285
Inclusive > exclusive. The kid that gets the second hand Xbox One from grandma for Christmas can play the same games as the first person in line for Series X. That is the spirit of console gaming.
 

Bricktop

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,847
Frankly, held back is a meme that gets created by people who are too caught up in device competition

I read that line and then read this thread and he hit the nail on the head.

I still can't fathom how people are making a big deal out of a year of Xbone compatibility after what we've seen being shown from both camps. It's like people are just clinging for a reason to shit on Microsoft's approach.

This is going to be one of those things people keep harping on about and yet when we look back on this next generation is going to seem so ridiculous.
You do

You don't keep your pc up to date?

Most PC gamers don't. In fact the overwhelming majority of PC gamers machines will be far outclassed by next gen consoles.
 

Decarb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,660
There is a distinct jump in visual quality of PC games after the change of console gen (except for PC exclusive games like Crysis) because the floor gets raised for everyone. But yeah on the basic level of resolution and fps, the low system requirements don't hold back recommended spec PCs.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,587
Holding back game design... the myth that gets regurgitated and fed to platform warriors every time a new console launch is near, and PR needs something to sell it beyond: look shiny graphics.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,749
Considering how much more powerful PCs are compared to consoles, yet how the best looking games are often console exclusives, I just don't buy that.
Console exclusives aren't the prettiest because of designing for one tech spec, they are prettiest because they don't have the same financial implications with regards to budgets as third party games in that they don't have to pay a platform cut for every game sold, probably don't have to pay for certification, and that the cost of them can be partly considered as marketing for their consoles whose real money maker is the cut from the third party games sold on it
 

Zedark

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,719
The Netherlands
This argument doesn't really hold water. The most important hardware aspect of last gen that is holding back some gameplay ideas is the hard drive. A good example for this is Ratchet & Clank Rift Apart: that game is not possible on PS4 without cutting the inter-dimensional transitions. Additionally, Sony have stated that Spider-Man was limited gameplay-wise by the hard drive speed of the PS4.

If your games for launch year don't really make use of the SSD beyond faster loading, then in that case you can of course support both generations pretty well, but it's a bit nonsense imo to state that supporting XB1 in addition to next gen has no real impact on what games you can make. We have seen and heard about games that are actively hindered or straight up not possible on gen 8 devices. In fact, the Medium skipped a gen 8 version for that exact reason.

Edit:Of course, that doesn't mean that games Have been held back. Game devs decide on a scope, and it probably just fits on the Xb1. What's more, cross-gen support hasn't been announced for anything longer than 1 year, so they will transition over and just make PC and XSX games, probably raising the PC storage requirement to an SSD.
 

CanUKlehead

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,427
Nah, that analogy doesn't work for me, as outlined by everyone already. Don't get more wrong, I don't even mind if the old consoles hold things back for a couple of years if that does happen, but unless I can swap in internal parts to the SX and PS5 that aren't the storage, like I can theoretically do on PC, not the same.
 
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