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Neat

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,108
New York City
can you concern troll harder?
He's not wrong about this though; Microsoft runs Game Pass promotions all the damn time. Just today I got three months of XGP for free, just for being a Discord Nitro subscriber. The other day I got a month just for eating at Taco Bell lol. You don't think savvy consumers take advantage of these promos to sub, play a hot new release like I did for Forza Horizon 4, Gears 5, and The Outer Worlds, and then unsub? All in all, I got maybe 8 months worth of Game Pass through these various promos and I haven't even spent close to 10 bucks yet. It is what it is.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,431
getting 1,000x the money and shine that they would have gotten before Spotify came along.

I think the misconception here is you think small artists are getting paid well on Spotify. The answer is they aren't and people want to know how that works if Game Pass takes off, because why wouldn't it when it's offered for a $1 constantly, and players stop buying games and eventually everything is forced to be on a subscription, unless it's a big AAA game with tons of marketing.
 

DarthBuzzard

Banned
Jul 17, 2018
5,122
I care about the product.

Gamepass might influence development in ways don't like.

Tacked on multiplayer, "live services", superfluous seasons.
The decline of certain genres.

It's happened many times in the past.

It could alternatively lead to positives, revive genres etc.

I'm not a consumer, I'm a hobbyist.
If you consume things, you are a consumer. Besides, literally anything might influence development in ways we don't like. The very existence of consoles for example. PC die-hards might find it bad, but console-lovers won't.

Game Pass is 100% good until we learn that it's not. Until then, there's need to assume, think, or concern yourself about negatives.
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,248
Yuuup. Fans who fret over their favorite mega-corporation losing out on a couple bucks need to get a life.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
THERE IS ZERO LOGIC OR ANY RATIONAL THINKING IN YOUR POSTS
STOP

You are bringing absolutely nothing to the conversation

Wait, are you actually suggesting every single subscriber of Game Pass pays full price each and every month for the entire year? And you also think it's illogical to suggest some will not be subbed for the entire year or that some will have paid heavily discounted prices for their subs?

And you realise the revenue having to cover the costs of hundreds of titles on the service is a matter of fact not opinion right?

they may very well be at 10 million subs already

Given Gears 5 had 3 million players in its first weekend/week, which will have included retail sales (physical and digital), game pass subs, grey market sales, shared or multiple accounts etc, I highly doubt that.
 

Jiraiya

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,302
How was gamepass a hail mary when it coincides with the shift Microsoft as a company has to made into services?
 

DopeyFish

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,800
He's not wrong about this though; Microsoft runs Game Pass promotions all the damn time. Just today I got three months of XGP for free, just for being a Discord Nitro subscriber. The other day I got a month just for eating at Taco Bell lol. You don't think savvy consumers take advantage of these promos to sub, play a hot new release like I did for Forza Horizon 4, Gears 5, and The Outer Worlds, and then unsub? All in all, I got maybe 8 months worth of Game Pass through these various promos and I haven't even spent close to 10 bucks yet. It is what it is.

It's an attempt to invalidate the success by using literally nonsense as reasoning

It's concern trolling.

Hey this service can't be successful because me and other people are doing this one thing. It's like assuming everyone is min maxing their investment in a $10 a month service.

It's not honest. It's bullshit this type of garbage is allowed in these threads. Why? Because I can't disprove it. There's no numbers. There's nothing in reports. It's just random ass negativity meant to paint the service in one exact way for the purposes of pushing down a competitor of their favorite brand. Can't dispute it because there's no financial numbers. so then why should we let people dictate what the service is worth or bringing in based on their own personal usage scenario?

When I talk, I talk on the theoretical x amount of subscribers are needed to maintain this level of service. But I do not and cannot imply actual subscribers because nobod has any idea outside of some blurbs where millions of people downloaded through game pass.

That's why it brings nothing to the conversation.
 
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ghostcrew

The Shrouded Ghost
Administrator
Oct 27, 2017
30,395
I think the misconception here is you think small artists are getting paid well on Spotify. The answer is they aren't and people want to know how that works if Game Pass takes off, because why wouldn't it when it's offered for a $1 constantly, and players stop buying games and eventually everything is forced to be on a subscription, unless it's a big AAA game with tons of marketing.

I would put to you that most small artists who aren't 'getting paid' by Spotify probably weren't making much from selling music anyway. Just because Spotify hasn't been a cash cow for them doesn't mean that the alternative was any better.
 

rebelcrusader

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,833
I would put to you that most small artists who aren't 'getting paid' by Spotify probably weren't making much from selling music anyway. Just because Spotify hasn't been a cash cow for them doesn't mean that the alternative was any better.
These kinds of artists have always had to tour to make money - it has affected the very wealthy artists who used to make a lot of album sales -----but

Spotify didn't change the market - the market because of the internet had already changed - they merely profited off the change
 

Patent

Self-requested ban
Banned
Jul 2, 2018
1,621
North Carolina
He's not wrong about this though; Microsoft runs Game Pass promotions all the damn time. Just today I got three months of XGP for free, just for being a Discord Nitro subscriber. The other day I got a month just for eating at Taco Bell lol. You don't think savvy consumers take advantage of these promos to sub, play a hot new release like I did for Forza Horizon 4, Gears 5, and The Outer Worlds, and then unsub? All in all, I got maybe 8 months worth of Game Pass through these various promos and I haven't even spent close to 10 bucks yet. It is what it is.
This kinda things does worry me they give it away like hotcakes,call me a concern troll but the long term budget and game design decisions that could be effected WORRY me. Don't tell me to shut up and play games tho
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,440
I care about the product.

Gamepass might influence development in ways don't like.

Tacked on multiplayer, "live services", superfluous seasons.
The decline of certain genres.

It's happened many times in the past.

It could alternatively lead to positives, revive genres etc.

I'm not a consumer, I'm a hobbyist.
When Sim City 4 or whatever the name of the online only version was called had a ton of issues EA allowed us to pick a free game. All of the games had a big DLC or GAAS element to it, the ones I picked was Dead Space 3, and NFS Most Wanted 2012. In NFS MW 2012 the dlc stuff was all up in my face, and it's so integrated with the main game that I kept going to the cars thinking they were standard but find out that it's DLC advertising (you drive up to the scattered/hidden parked cars and press a button to change into them or collect them pokemon style). With EA Origin (PC) I'm sure a good deal of EA games have been designed with MTX in mind (poor Bioware).
 

Livetohard378

Self-requested ban
Banned
Feb 17, 2019
175
This thread wow..... 🍿🍿🍿🍿

Honest question though. Y'all know that Phil Spencer, Jim Ryan, and Doug Bowser would all be fired if they weren't actually making money for their respective companies RIGHT. Not Promoted????
 

Smurf

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,653
The reason gamepass was created in the first place was because they no longer had sales numbers to brag about and had to create something else they could brag about while being very vague.
619712486559580171.png
 

Akita One

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,632
I think the misconception here is you think small artists are getting paid well on Spotify. The answer is they aren't and people want to know how that works if Game Pass takes off, because why wouldn't it when it's offered for a $1 constantly, and players stop buying games and eventually everything is forced to be on a subscription, unless it's a big AAA game with tons of marketing.
No, small artists weren't getting paid at all before Spotify outside of just playing local shows. Now those local shows are much more crowded because people are hearing their songs for free, plus the thousands of pennies that is more than the zero they were getting before. And, at least they have a starting point to negiotiate for more monies, which is more than the zero they were getting before. Music stores have been closed for almost two decades now...why do you think artists of all sizes promote their Soundclouds and Spotify releases so aggressively?

This, in a nutshell, is why subscription services are here. Also, GamePass isn't $1 "constantly"...maybe people have resubbed and others have bought games that they never would have given a chance before. This is where engagement and active users and all come in. And...even that $1 is alot more than zero.

And please...let's stop with the "games will be forced to be subscriptions and people will stop buying games" when that is the opposite of what is happening. All streams of revenue are important.

These are the same arguments made to predict that movie rentals would fail as a business and that recordable cassette would be the downfall of the music industry.

I would put to you that most small artists who aren't 'getting paid' by Spotify probably weren't making much from selling music anyway. Just because Spotify hasn't been a cash cow for them doesn't mean that the alternative was any better.
Yup. Again...even at $1...Microsoft is bring in millions of dollars at $1 a month that was zero before.
 
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Deleted member 51306

User requested account closure
Banned
Dec 27, 2018
628
They have been burning money with the Xbox division for almost 20 years now. They're still a distant third in the console market with very limited appeal outside of the US. They're investing heavily at the moment but I doubt that's going to last if they don't see a proper return of investment in the not so distant future.
360 was a huge success? And you proved my point. A company like MS doesn't spend money on something for 20 years without it being profitable. Just because they aren't the market leader doesn't mean they don't make money from the product.
 

Jiraiya

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,302
This kinda things does worry me they give it away like hotcakes,call me a concern troll but the long term budget and game design decisions that could be effected WORRY me. Don't tell me to shut up and play games tho

Do you know why it worries you? Can you point to something that's happening right now and say subs have affected game design?

Who's game design is being affected? 3rd party? They still have to sale their games on platforms that don't do what Microsoft does. 1st party? Has anything changed in Microsoft's 1st party game design?

I'm just wondering what little nugget causes so much worry.
 

pswii60

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,687
The Milky Way
I think the misconception here is you think small artists are getting paid well on Spotify. The answer is they aren't and people want to know how that works if Game Pass takes off, because why wouldn't it when it's offered for a $1 constantly, and players stop buying games and eventually everything is forced to be on a subscription, unless it's a big AAA game with tons of marketing.
The misconception here is that small artists were getting paid well before Spotify.
 

Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
People really need to stop taking everything Phil says at face value.
His job is to make xbox look good and to spin things so they sound the most positive. You need to stop thinking he's being completely honest and doing what's best for the consumer at every turn. It's his job to make you think that.
Just because people have concerns about what a service like gamepass can mean for the industry in the future does not make them a anti xbox fanboy or something.

The reason gamepass was created in the first place was because they no longer had sales numbers to brag about and had to create something else they could brag about while being very vague.
Yeah, pile billions and reshape game distribution for consoles because they wanted to win PR wars? Perfectly sound reasoning.
 

Santar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,068
Norway
This is an embarrassing post

" does not make them a anti xbox fanboy"

And then

"The reason gamepass was created in the first place was because they no longer had sales numbers to brag about and had to create something else they could brag about while being very vague."
You know reading it out now I realize how stupid my last paragraph sounds. I was waaay too fast on the trigger there. Of course a huge organization wouldn't create something like gamepass just to have something to speak positively about.
That was a really stupid not thought out at all paragraphg from me.
 

SPDIF

Member
Oct 27, 2017
359
They have proven time and time again that they don't. And when I observe the current situation, all I see is Microsoft throwing shit at a wall to see what sticks.
How anyone can look at the current direction MS is taking Xbox and come out with 'all I see is Microsoft throwing shit at a wall to see what sticks' is beyond me. Willful ignorance is about the best I can come up with.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,166
The misconception here is that small artists were getting paid well before Spotify.

Exactly. According to Steve Albini today it's easier for smaller music acts to make it because they can find niches that they couldn't in the 90's. Back then it was really difficult for bands to make it that weren't in a heavy MTV rotation.
 

Daebo

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,276
Cincinnati
Lol this thread.

Just gonna say alot of the folks arguing about concern for the dev's, bought/buy alot of used games back in the days or still. Buy alot of shit in the buy/sell/trade thread. Look for the black Friday deals. Craigslist. Ebay... buy graphic card serials that offer games...

Not a lot of concern for devs then, huh...
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
It's an attempt to invalidate the success by using literally nonsense as reasoning

It's concern trolling.

Hey this service can't be successful because me and other people are doing this one thing.

I mean, it isn't nonsense, it is literal objective truth. And I never said the service can't be or isn't successful, you've just jumped to that conclusion presumably in defensiveness.

It's also amusing to me how you're so adamant the service is a huge success when we have no idea how many subscribers there are, how much revenue it is or isn't making, what the rate of growth is, what Microsoft's targets are or were and if they're achieving them and so on. We have barely anything to go by to decide one way or another, so I'm not even sure what metrics you're using to defiantly conclude as much.

All we know is there are more than 2 million subs, but also that Microsoft is still aggressively promoting and pricing the service.
 

pswii60

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,687
The Milky Way
Exactly. According to Steve Albini today it's easier for smaller music acts to make it because they can find niches that they couldn't in the 90's. Back then it was really difficult for bands to make it that weren't in a heavy MTV rotation.
I have music on Spotify and confirm this is true. The labels I've made music for wouldn't have been able to exist in the past, because the barrier to entry now is so low. And you're not having to convince people to buy your music, and you get added to shared playlists etc. I've made a little money - the labels a lot more - but that's life in the music business as it always had been. The winners make millions, everyone else makes pittance. Songwriting and touring is still where the money is.

TBF I don't think the music industry is a good comparison to videogames anyway. Music doesn't require anything like the same level of financial investment and risk.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,431
No, small artists weren't getting paid at all before Spotify outside of just playing local shows. Now those local shows are much more crowded because people are hearing their songs for free, plus the thousands of pennies that is more than the zero they were getting before. And, at least they have a starting point to negiotiate for more monies, which is more than the zero they were getting before. Music stores have been closed for almost two decades now...why do you think artists of all sizes promote their Soundclouds and Spotify releases so aggressively?

This, in a nutshell, is why subscription services are here. Also, GamePass isn't $1 "constantly"...maybe people have resubbed and others have bought games that they never would have given a chance before. This is where engagement and active users and all come in. And...even that $1 is alot more than zero.

Yeah but Indie games are hosting concerts and using game pass for exposure it would be there main source of revenue. And who would buy a single indie game for $10-20 when they can just keep subscribing to game pass for $10 or less. It devalues games, I would think especially smaller ones. And back to the original point I made I'm more concerned with how Microsoft is paying / going to pay developers on game pass as it grows.

I'm not concerned about XGS games they are owned by Microsoft, not concerned with games currently launching on game pass because they are being paid to be there. But what happens if Game Pass succeeds, the sentiment I've seen all over the internet since GP launched off, "It's great I don't need to buy games on Xbox now" is realized and not enough people buy / play games unless they are on the subscription.
 

senj

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,449
How was gamepass a hail mary when it coincides with the shift Microsoft as a company has to made into services?
Yeah, gamepass is motivated by the exact same thing driving everything the company has done under Nadella: transitioning as many revenue streams as possible to ARPU. It's the same thing that's driving Apple to lean hard into subscription services. Wall Street is really, really, rewarding ARPU metrics over individual sales with no long term recurring revenue streams.
 

More Butter

Banned
Jun 12, 2018
1,890
The "I don't support Gamepass because it's too good of value to be profitable. " mentality is one of the dumber things that has surfaced this gen.
 

Patent

Self-requested ban
Banned
Jul 2, 2018
1,621
North Carolina
Do you know why it worries you? Can you point to something that's happening right now and say subs have affected game design?

Who's game design is being affected? 3rd party? They still have to sale their games on platforms that don't do what Microsoft does. 1st party? Has anything changed in Microsoft's 1st party game design?

I'm just wondering what little nugget causes so much worry.
I'm clearly talking about 1st party, 3rd party has nothing to do with this, When i played through on GP i noticed they lean heavily into microtransactions and dlc as a way to make back so much of the lost revenue, i mean they are giving this away for basically free to a lot of people. I didn't say i thought this was already affecting their games but its the future and what decisions they will make to make up on the lost money , they have a huge war chest beyond belief but you cant dip into that as much as you want. This is simply my opinion if you don't agree well that's yours.
 

TsuWave

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,028
Phil telling weirdos to stop pocket watching and focus on playing games. You love to see it.
 

Dave

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,338
Yeah, specially considering Gamepass pays developers in bulk for their games. Xbox belongs to a multimillionaire company, does it matter that much if they lose money?

You mean multibillion which is why this comment actually doesn't come across as "we care" and it actually comes across as "We don't need to care".
 

More Butter

Banned
Jun 12, 2018
1,890
This is improperly calculated, since not everyone who is a subscriber is going to be a long term subscriber (some may sub for a single month every several months, just to bulk play a selection of tentpole titles), and nor is everyone who is subscribed going to have paid close to full price. Also, don't forget that subscription revenue has to cover the cost of hundreds of different titles, not just one or two, so that revenue splits far thinner than a typical $60 purchase.

I have nearly 2 years worth of Game Pass Ultimate and I paid maybe £60 for it. My £60 therefore has to theoretically cover the cost of hundreds of different titles on the service for almost 2 whole years.
Phil specifically told you to stop doing what you are doing in this post. Comply.
 

Gxgear

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,160
Vancouver
Converting a gold user to ultimate pass triples their subscription revenue down the road, not to mention addition new users from PC/Windows. That's a lot of cheddar.
 

Akita One

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,632
Yeah but Indie games are hosting concerts and using game pass for exposure it would be there main source of revenue. And who would buy a single indie game for $10-20 when they can just keep subscribing to game pass for $10 or less. It devalues games, I would think especially smaller ones.

Because...they like the game and want to complete it outside of GamePass? Or they don't want to subscribe to GamePass? Or literally any other reason that people buy games after trying it for the first time?

And guess what...those devs still get alot of revenue from their metrics on GamePass! This has all been explained repeatedly about every subscription service. You are using traditional lemonade stand logic to describe a business model based on engagement and active users. It's not apple and oranges. You are using selective commentary from people you want to listen to ("all I hear is people bragging about getting in cheap and not subscribing") that you aren't "seeing" the people resubscribe at full price, or buying these games that they would have never given a chance, because in the past, the only solution was paying for price for something you didn't know about.

Yeah, gamepass is motivated by the exact same thing driving everything the company has done under Nadella: transitioning as many revenue streams as possible to ARPU. It's the same thing that's driving Apple to lean hard into subscription services. Wall Street is really, really, rewarding ARPU metrics over individual sales with no long term recurring revenue streams.

All of this. One model gets you $60 over a period of time and another model get you alot more over an even longer period of time. When you get people into your ecosystem...it affect ad clicks, how they are exposed to other MS products, and valuable data on what your consumers want to buy/play.

I'm clearly talking about 1st party, 3rd party has nothing to do with this, When i played through on GP i noticed they lean heavily into microtransactions and dlc as a way to make back so much of the lost revenue
But this is what he means...how do you know they are losing revenue? Where in GamePass is it "leaning into" MTX and DLC, considering all DLC using comes free with the games there? Where is this coming from that this is some loss leader business that they have to trick gamers into making up the difference somewhere? Do you have a quote from someone saying this?

That's not how it works. What was one bucket is now several buckets. If they were losing revenue, Phil Spencer wouldn't have a job.
 
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NCR Ranger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,885
Yeah but Indie games are hosting concerts and using game pass for exposure it would be there main source of revenue. And who would buy a single indie game for $10-20 when they can just keep subscribing to game pass for $10 or less. It devalues games, I would think especially smaller ones. And back to the original point I made I'm more concerned with how Microsoft is paying / going to pay developers on game pass as it grows.

I'm not concerned about XGS games they are owned by Microsoft, not concerned with games currently launching on game pass because they are being paid to be there. But what happens if Game Pass succeeds, the sentiment I've seen all over the internet since GP launched off, "It's great I don't need to buy games on Xbox now" is realized and not enough people buy / play games unless they are on the subscription.

Threads on this board have literally been filled with people claiming they would rather buy the game then get it via game pass. I mean most of the backlash against game pass seems to be from people worried they won't be able to do that.
 

Deleted member 32563

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
1,336
Phil telling weirdos to stop pocket watching and focus on playing games. You love to see it.

Kinda how in the Off-Topic side when Obama admonished cancel culture folks didn't know how to act. All that's being said is sometimes the concern is misplaced and a bit much. Love seeing this from Phil just play the games and enjoy.
 

sn00zer

Member
Feb 28, 2018
6,112
Ok so Ive been thinking about this and I THINK this may be how it works.

"Game A" costs 60 bucks. A number of people will buy "Game A" at this price point while most people will not. "Game A" makes its money in a traditional manner as the price point drops over time and more people purchase it.

"Game B" comes out on Game Pass and on shelves. "Game B" devs knows some people will buy "Game B" on store shelves, but they are giving up a large number of potential sales because even fans of the game will play on Game Pass if its there. BUT "Game B" gets a nickel every time someone plays there game on Game Pass. Game Pass has a large pool of people who will try their game even if they had no intention of ever buying it. The landslide of nickels that includes both people who wouldve bought the game in stores and the people who would have never bought it will likely outweigh any sales they may have lost moving to Game Pass.

"Game C" has been out a long time and it seems like everyone who was willing to buy the game has bought it already. There is very little money being made on "Game C" from now until forever as the buying audience has been exhausted. Now "Game C" comes out onto Game Pass, because there is literally nothing to lose since they werent selling it anyway. They now are getting a landslide of nickels from people who were never going to buy the game and suddenly you have more people playing your game again.
 

Replicant

Attempted to circumvent a ban with an alt
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,380
MN
Really don't think that's the question being asked...people are wondering what it means for developers on game pass and the cause and effect of Xbox heavily pushing a subscription service and what that means for the value of games and digital and physical game sales.

I haven't seen anyone concerned with Microsoft. They are going this route because they've determined it will be the most profitable / far reaching. Anything else is PR.

Developers get paid to be on game pass. I don't understand the question.
 

Akita One

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,632
Ok so Ive been thinking about this and I THINK this may be how it works.

"Game A" costs 60 bucks. A number of people will buy "Game A" at this price point while most people will not. "Game A" makes its money in a traditional manner as the price point drops over time and more people purchase it.

"Game B" comes out on Game Pass and on shelves. "Game B" devs knows some people will buy "Game B" on store shelves, but they are giving up a large number of potential sales because even fans of the game will play on Game Pass if its there. BUT "Game B" gets a nickel every time someone plays there game on Game Pass. Game Pass has a large pool of people who will try their game even if they had no intention of ever buying it. The landslide of nickels that includes both people who wouldve bought the game in stores and the people who would have never bought it will likely outweigh any sales they may have lost moving to Game Pass.

"Game C" has been out a long time and it seems like everyone who was willing to buy the game has bought it already. There is very little money being made on "Game C" from now until forever as the buying audience has been exhausted. Now "Game C" comes out onto Game Pass, because there is literally nothing to lose since they werent selling it anyway. They now are getting a landslide of nickels from people who were never going to buy the game and suddenly you have more people playing your game again.
giphy.gif
 

Jiraiya

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,302
I'm clearly talking about 1st party, 3rd party has nothing to do with this, When i played through on GP i noticed they lean heavily into microtransactions and dlc as a way to make back so much of the lost revenue, i mean they are giving this away for basically free to a lot of people. I didn't say i thought this was already affecting their games but its the future and what decisions they will make to make up on the lost money , they have a huge war chest beyond belief but you cant dip into that as much as you want. This is simply my opinion if you don't agree well that's yours.

They do? Dlc and microtransactions were here years before gamepass. Like.... the 360 had dlc and mtx. How can you attribute things like that to a sub?

Not to mention there are games like Sea of Thieves that haven't charged for any updates.

I don't care that it's your opinion...I'm just wondering why your ok having that opinion with little to no facts to substantiate it?

You actually have more evidence from devs who've explained gp has been pretty good for them. Why don't facts factor into your opinion?

Like your gp anecdote about dlc...why are you choosing to be wrong?
 

kai3345

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,446
they wouldn't be doing this if they didn't have confidence it was profitable in the long term