Why wouldn't they add these? I thought that is what most users here wanted in a "definitive edition".
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Persona 5 Royal keeps homophobic scenes of the original, adds even worse ones regarding Shiho
- Thread starter Lant_War
- Start date
Atlus and other companies don't care about what people here want.
They kept the homophobic scenes and added even more questionable stuff in regards to one of the rape victims from the first arc.
Idk why people thought that Atlus of all companies would even entertain the idea of adding gay relationships to this game when it's very clear how they view the LGBT community. The writing was on the wall after Catherine Full Body imo.
As someone who has - at best - surface level understanding of Japanese culture, I can't wrap my head around the seemingly rampant homophobia that gets called out again and again. To me, what would be considered "effeminate" in the west is the norm for the cis male ideal in Japanese teen/youth culture. I would almost go as far to say that an andronygous look is seemingly highly desired by the younger male populace in Japan.
So, all of this is relatively close to what your average joe (at least in the west) would relate to your stereotypical gay man, which is close minded but somewhat understandable all things considered. What I don't understand is, with this relatively progressive "feminine" male ideal, why is Japan struggling with all this homophobia?
TL;DR: The mainstream male stereotype in Japanese culture seems more aligned with the stereotypical gay guy, which in my mind should mean less knee-jerk homophobia.
So, all of this is relatively close to what your average joe (at least in the west) would relate to your stereotypical gay man, which is close minded but somewhat understandable all things considered. What I don't understand is, with this relatively progressive "feminine" male ideal, why is Japan struggling with all this homophobia?
TL;DR: The mainstream male stereotype in Japanese culture seems more aligned with the stereotypical gay guy, which in my mind should mean less knee-jerk homophobia.
Probably because they did it in P2: Innocent Sin and got as far as having voiced lines for a romance with Yosuke in 4, not to mention treating Lala Escargot pretty decently. They have some huge blind spots and have made definite missteps (to say the least re: Full Body), but they've also done better in the past imo. Plus, it's not clear how much was Hashino's attitude and how much was the culture at Atlus as a whole.
Not excusing the stupid decisions (the homophobia was intensely frustrating in P5, though I think it unreasonable to expect them to remove it), but I don't think, personally, it's quite as much a zero-sum thing as other people think.
I agree. I can't remember all of the scenes in P5 (it's been a while since I've played it) but based on the scene which was linked earlier in the thread, I don't see how it's homophobic. As he says, it's just Ryuji rejecting two men who are engaging with him.
I think just because the way two gay men are portrayed in this instance is obviously not representative of all gay people. You'd have to be an absolute moron to view all gay people in this manner. It's ridiculous.
They chase Ryuji around as he runs away screaming.
Both here and in another scene in the beach event.
For the record, it's not homophobic because of the characters' reactions to these guys.
The gay guys themselves are what's homophobic. They are a dangerous stereotyping of gays being predatory and pedophiles.
The gay guys themselves are what's homophobic. They are a dangerous stereotyping of gays being predatory and pedophiles.
I'm not going to judge the Shiho scenes until I play through it. From what I've seen it makes sense in the context of the scene.
As for the the homophobic scenes, though on one hand you can't pretend that people like that don't exist, it's a shame that the only gay people in the game are portrayed like that, the game would just be better off without that shit in the first place.
I was hoping it would be removed but I figured they wouldn't, I hope the backlash reaches them eventually and forces them to reconsider this stuff.
As for the the homophobic scenes, though on one hand you can't pretend that people like that don't exist, it's a shame that the only gay people in the game are portrayed like that, the game would just be better off without that shit in the first place.
I was hoping it would be removed but I figured they wouldn't, I hope the backlash reaches them eventually and forces them to reconsider this stuff.
If there was a scene where the stereotypes help out the cast in some way, I wouldn't really have an issue with their portrayal. Just a scene that shows that despite their demeanor, they're actually pretty decent people. Hell, even just cheering on the Phantom Thieves at the end would be fine. As it stands they really are depicted as one-note predators and that's fucking awful.
Unless Royal adds in something like that, but I doubt it.
Unless Royal adds in something like that, but I doubt it.
I don't think anybody is pretending that people like that don't exist. If the game actually addressed predatory pedophilia in some meaningful sort of way, I don't think it'd be considered as much of an issue.
The problem is that it's the only portrayal of homosexuality in this game, and it's used not only for a cheap joke, but to portray the only two gays in this game as predatory pedophiles. It plays into very common conservative propaganda that portrays gays as lecherous deviants wanting to prey on children and teenagers to 'corrupt' them, and that the next step after decriminalizing homosexuality, same sex marriage etc. is towards pedophilia (among others, such as incest or zoophilia, but that's neither here nor there). Persona 5 is perpetuating and reiterating that bigotry with these characters, for the purpose of a set of throwaway jokes.
What looks '' effeminate '' in the west and be considered '' normal/masculine '' somewhere else. How men are allowed to act or how they can look without setting off any kind of '' weirdo/gay alert '' varies from culture to culture. And even if Japanese men have more breathing room in how they are allowed to dress, that's only one part of gender expression. They can still be pressured to ACT and BEHAVE in a masculine way. If you look like a pretty boy who takes care of himself, other forms of '' feminine '' expression if you are a man, are prohibited. And even if there's a trend of men being able to look a bit more '' effeminate '', that doesn't mean it's not criticized or looked down upon by others (probably mostly men).
For example, this video shows a man who dresses more flamboyant saying that he is called the f-word and a weirdo at school.
Japan is struggling with homophobia because it's a culture where individuality is frowned upon. Sticking out like a sore thumb is a no no, whether it's because of your occupation, your choice of clothing or your sexuality. There's also a severe lack of LGBT knowledge, and LGBT education has only recently been added to curriculum and in teacher/staff training.
But here's the thing, there are several (popular) gay entertainers in TV, so replacement for education of LGBT people is replaced by often raunchy gay and transgender (MtF is often grouped together with gay entertainers, who are as well often in drag) entertainers who are flamboyant, loud and are often used to make straight men uncomfortable, because often these gay entertainers will jokingly grope and touch other handsome male guests (for comedy and laughs). And this kind of gay representation has been going on for, what, 20 years? In Japan, there are no '' regular degular normal '' gay comedians or entertainers or artists or actors. There is just that one sect of gay entertainers who more or less are required to use their homosexuality and flamboyance to be the butt end of the joke. So it's no wonder these kinds of jokes keep being put into Japanese entertainment, video games or anime, because that is often the only knowledge of gay people these artists and writers and developers have of gay men especially.
Here's an interview/article I keep referencing when this topic comes up, by WaPo
'' Mitz Mangrove is another gay, cross-dressing television celebrity, a star who trades on flamboyance. He's not without qualms; perpetuating stereotypes, he concedes, may not be the best way to bring homosexuality into the mainstream.
There is a boom in "onee" stars, Mitz Mangrove said, using the Japanese word that refers to men who speak like women and are often gay or transgender, and they are treated like weirdos or eccentrics.
"We fit in a category of being obviously atypical or unusual," he said as he was having his make-up fixed after the "It's Noon" lunchtime variety show. They are encouraged to be outlandish or outspoken to spice up TV shows, and that's why there are no openly gay people in more mainstream roles on television, he said.
"We are not treated as human beings. We are okay as long as we say things that are not mainstream or that are sharp or vulgar," Mangrove said.
For that reason, it wasn't necessarily a good thing for "ordinary gay people" to be associated with cross-dressing celebrities like them.
"They might be treated as abnormal as that's the common idea about us in the TV world," Mitz Mangrove said. "There are many gay people who are boring, not social or don't drink alcohol in this world but our society doesn't accept that fact and I find that very uncomfortable."
Japanese society is "confused" with what to make of these television personalities, said Aya Kamikawa, a representative on the Setagaya council and Japan's first transgender assembly member.
"I don't oppose the idea that they are selling their sexuality as their appeal," she said of the TV hosts. "But in reality, sexual minorities are everywhere, they can be your colleagues, friends and relatives. Right now, they're seen as people to be laughed at or be consumed. It's grossly lopsided."
I have a question for people playing the game: How is Lala-chan handled in the new content?
I know at the time a lot of people liked her in the original release, but personally I thought she had some bad subtext regarding how other characters react to her. Albeit subtext that if it wasn't for EVERY OTHER GAME PERSONA TEAM HAS RELEASED POST PERSONA 2, I might have said that I was reading into.
... But anyway, does that subtext continue? Does the subtext become text? Do new plot points affect her situation at all? Or does she just exist off screen for most of the new content.
I know at the time a lot of people liked her in the original release, but personally I thought she had some bad subtext regarding how other characters react to her. Albeit subtext that if it wasn't for EVERY OTHER GAME PERSONA TEAM HAS RELEASED POST PERSONA 2, I might have said that I was reading into.
... But anyway, does that subtext continue? Does the subtext become text? Do new plot points affect her situation at all? Or does she just exist off screen for most of the new content.
My guess is that you've framed this in the totally wrong way. For example, at least if you look around the '70s and '80s there are still a ton of Japanese works which, while not specifically homophobic, explicitly push the idea of "if you're a man you have to ask like a man". Its just that it tends to be moreso along the lines of "if you're a man you have to fight and be unhappy and it totally sucks but you have to do it." There are also a lots of scenes like "You're a man, right? So you have to do it".
There's actually a manga that I wanted to post a thread about in off-topic because I found it so disappointing; it starts off being pretty explicitly about how the traditional Japanese ideal of masculinity promoted in WW1 is bad, with the jokes either being about it being ridiculously outdated or destructive to the men, but then it turns into a standard macho manga after and starts promoting these same values as good.
i keep reading that they are awful at portraying gay people but i mean......Do you guys even remember persona 4?
i dont want to write everything myself so im gonna copy everything from wiki.
"I still don't really get what bein' "strong" means, but I'm gonna start by not lying to myself. No more being scared of everyone, hiding my hobbies, staying away from people... Anytime, anyplace, I'm gonna bust right through as my own self! That's the way to deal with that "other me" in the TV world."
this is said by kanji.
and the boss of the palace ofcourse:
" After being denied, Shadow Kanji transforms into is a mostly nude version of himself surrounded in a bed of roses while holding two Mars symbols. It represents his second thoughts regarding his true sexuality (the possibility of being gay) and being unsure of the opposite sex, as the sensitive side under his rough exterior is often unappreciated and even ridiculed by girls and being thought of as an unmanly degenerate as a result. His Shadow is also accompanied by two other Shadows, one named 'Nice Guy' and the other named 'Tough Guy;' possibly referring to the common homosexual stereotypes of a feminine man , and the other a masculine man. "
The whole point of the dungeon was for him to believe in himself and accept who he really is. You literally fight the stereotypes.
Also there are predatory and feminine gay people (what was that youtubers name again) , I know its a wrong stereotype but again i dont really feel like they had any agendas behind this particular scene. it was a joke that some liked and many disliked.
Japanese culture usually over exaggerates stuff to the point that people who are not familiar with the culture can get offended by it. Its just their thing.
"I still don't really get what bein' "strong" means, but I'm gonna start by not lying to myself. No more being scared of everyone, hiding my hobbies, staying away from people... Anytime, anyplace, I'm gonna bust right through as my own self! That's the way to deal with that "other me" in the TV world."
this is said by kanji.
and the boss of the palace ofcourse:
" After being denied, Shadow Kanji transforms into is a mostly nude version of himself surrounded in a bed of roses while holding two Mars symbols. It represents his second thoughts regarding his true sexuality (the possibility of being gay) and being unsure of the opposite sex, as the sensitive side under his rough exterior is often unappreciated and even ridiculed by girls and being thought of as an unmanly degenerate as a result. His Shadow is also accompanied by two other Shadows, one named 'Nice Guy' and the other named 'Tough Guy;' possibly referring to the common homosexual stereotypes of a feminine man , and the other a masculine man. "
The whole point of the dungeon was for him to believe in himself and accept who he really is. You literally fight the stereotypes.
Also there are predatory and feminine gay people (what was that youtubers name again) , I know its a wrong stereotype but again i dont really feel like they had any agendas behind this particular scene. it was a joke that some liked and many disliked.
Japanese culture usually over exaggerates stuff to the point that people who are not familiar with the culture can get offended by it. Its just their thing.
And those people are fucking trash. We have so many hand-waving people here on Era when it comes to homophobia and their chicken and games.
Atlus is trash too. I stopped supporting them.
I vaguely recall that it was later officially stated that
Kanji is straight
Kanji is a badly written straight character. They accidentally made him appear gay (well, bi) when the intent was that he was just kind of feminine in some aspects.
His arc is queer coded to hell and back, for sure. And the game wants you to think he's gay, at least to begin with. But when he's talking about his hobbies and falls for Naoto, you're not supposed to think "ah, he's queer and fallen for a trans man", you're supposed to think "ah, Naoto was a girl the entire time, Kanji subconsciously picked up on her womanhood somehow and then started worrying about toxic masculinity in regards to his hobbies, he's straight".
The message of his arc is not "it's ok to be gay", it's "it's ok to like cute things, that doesn't make you gay, which is of course the bad thing here".
The message of his arc is not "it's ok to be gay", it's "it's ok to like cute things, that doesn't make you gay, which is of course the bad thing here".
This would've went over better if they also made a '' it's okay to be gay '' arc for one character but that didn't happen either.
If ONLY there was a character they planned to be gay/bi...
Oh wait there was. Yosuke was planned to be bi at one point. But they cut it. I wonder why. Who would object to this move that would retroactively improve a lot of scenes for both Kanji and Yosuke (Kanji not being the one "gay" character, and Yosuke's homophobia not just being... Homophobia). 🤔
I see.
Im not sure if i agree but i get how it could be interpreted.
they definitely could have done a better job.
And also "don't panic, that person you like that looks like a boy is actually a girl, you're good".
Kanji is Bi, no matter how much they try to deny it.
He has shown attraction to both men and women and not only Naoto (I think I remember a scene in P4G where he was blushing when Yosuke rided his bike along with him).
Did I interpret this wrong or something? Seems like the guy(s) was coming onto him to him saying he was going to eat him up and calling him a studmuffin and he rejected him. Is it the way he rejected that is considered homophobic? The dog comment? I'd also have an issue if a man approached me like that.
I fully support this headcanon wise, but in terms of actual intent I would argue that any homoerotic moments with Kanji post his arc are part of a game the writers are playing called "Is it gay if Kanji does ___". Although I don't remember the specific example you mentioned.
Valentine's day is a great example in P4G. If you choose to hang with the boys, Kanji gives you some chocolate and blushes a lot. Superficially, this seems pretty gay. But then Kanji clarifies his intentions and says that he just wants to thank the MC for everything he's done, and then Yosuke and Teddie jump aboard this bandwagon.
There's room for interpretation here. It's possible that Kanji chickened out of saying how he actually feels, and came up with a plausible excuse to give the MC chocolate. But equally, Kanji could just be a very loving person (but not in a gay way or anything), who is shy about expressing his non-romantic feelings of gratitude.
I actually don't have any problems with this example specifically, because it's very cute and Kanji despite the writers is a good boy, but it's a good example of how Kanji's ambiguous situation can be used:
Kanji is textually not certain about his sexuality.
Kanji does something not particularly masculine.
Other characters call him out on it and suggest he's gay.
Kanji claims it's not like *that*, and gets defensive.
Remember, characters in video games are not real people. Every character and the world they're in are created by actual human beings in the real world. This situation didn't have to happen at all. The gay characters didn't have to act like this.
If the only gay characters in the game are aggressively accosting straight men as a joke, it has implications for how the game is presenting gay men. It's turning gay men into a joke and a threat against straight men.
Ok I didn't think of it from that perspective. That makes more sense to me. Thanks for the clarification. I also agree with you.
Could you specify what kind of subtext you mean? I don't think I got it myself.
Ok so there's a scene in Makoto's confident where the MC and Makoto go to Lala-chan's bar. I forget the details, but at one point Lala-chan starts talking about when she was a little girl? Makoto's reaction to this is shock.
Now it's entirely possible that Makoto is just really sheltered. But the conversation just kind of moves on, so in isolation it's hard to tell what the intent of the scene is. That being said. It's Atlus. So it's possible that the joke of the scene is not Makoto being sheltered, but rather Lala-chan in some form. Which is supported by Makoto not following up with "wow I have a lot to learn about the world" or whatever.
As I say, it's subtext, and if I were going to dump on Atlus it's not my go to choice due to the ambiguity. But I feel like if Lala-chan got more screentime, we'd see more of this.
I mean if they're literally chasing him around, I still don't understand how this is homophobic? Happy to have my mind changed here but I think it's a reach to suggest that the scene in question is homophobic.
Because it paints gay men specifically as predatory. The scene in question is easily read as '' gay people are gross '' rather than '' predators are gross. '' And gay men being painted as predatory towards unwilling straight men and even underage boys is an age old stereotype all around the world.
The ONLY example of gay men in the game are these predatory caricatures. That's part of what makes it a big problem.
It harkens to 1950s stereotypes that gay men are pedophiles. These men have unique animations to show beyond a doubt that they are gay. The entire point of the gag is to demean gay men.
You don't understand how portraying the ONLY two gay characters in the game as pedophiles is homophobic? You don't understand that? Really? 🤔
I really don't get it either and I'm gay people are offended too easily.
Thank you. I've been saying this for years. You can't defend fiction with "the world is just like that" because the world was created, not something that appeared naturally over centuries of human history.
Or maybe these '' jokes '' about gay people, that have been said for tens of years, are getting fucking irritating and downright insensitive?
I thought it was a good LGBTQ arc than specifically a gay one... I mean it stinks they didn't go full G, but otherwise I thought the idea of telling tougher folk that it's okay to have a soft side is important (and even sorta vice versa for Naoto).
Shame the game's humour has trouble doing much else but punching down.
It's combined with the fact that they stick around in the red district and will make some comments on how they love to have sex with underaged boys. They're pedophiles.
I mean, it's not the straight men who don't want sex or relationships who deserve scornful humor either. It's the toxic work culture that has killed relationships
Could you not apply this logic to any other type of individual in the game though? For example, the game's only PE teacher is portrayed as a paedophile. I just think it's silly.
Also, is it stated anywhere that these are paedophiles? Is it not plausible that they think they're older? I haven't played the game in a while so I'm not sure whether or not this is the case.
I find it very hard to believe that there's actual dialogue in the game of the men in question saying how they "love to have sex with underaged boys."
I think that's what's so telling. I didn't see anyone else making an issue when you can have a relationship with Kawakami, or Takemi, or Ohya (in regards to the paedophillic angle that's been brought up in regards to this.)