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Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,582
I haven't heard a single person suggest something otherwise. What would be an acceptable ending for Daenerys that doesn't involve victory, in your mind?

And you're the one conflating my post with you/others "railing against the overly misogynistic writing". Im quite literally talking about fans of her character, many in this thread, that wanted her to win.

I'm not conflating anything. You're dismissing people who vocalize their problems with this season's handling of Daenerys out of hand with the straw man they want her to have "the best possible ending," rather than simply not be written misogynistically.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,246
no one is cheering for this to happen, the camps are basically

Team Dany - we don't want her dead and want the best possible ending for her and probably on the throne, also why kill her for burning the common folk lol none of them are "good"

Team Story - actually Dany going mad queen has been hinted at and developed throughout the show and the books and Jon killing her and one of her last shots alive being her reaching for the throne is as tragic and beautiful as a "Game of Thrones" ending could get, also burning thousands of innocent people is like a bad thing you know.

Hilarious misrepresentation, but also expected at this point.

There's also team "they fucked up the mad queen heel turn and arc."
 

Spine Crawler

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,228
If you think railing against this season's overtly misogynistic and poorly written treatment of Daenerys means that fans wanted everything to be sunshine and rainbows for her, you aren't engaging in remotely good faith. But cute summary.
i think misogynistic is not correct.

the remaining forces are almost all helmed by women.

iron throne - cersei
north - sansa
iron islands - yara
unsullied - danaerys
hero that killed the NK- arya
 

HStallion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
62,423
Dany having some serious issues is a lot more apparent in the books. I wouldn't say a straight up villain but kind of a weird take on the benevolent dictator. She actually means well but her methods and actions are so fucked by the time she is a ruler you can see the seeds being planted for a darker turn for her from like the second or third book. It also helps that she is most likely not marching into Westeros and gaining all kinds of support when Aegon beat her to the punch.
 

SeroTyler

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,190
"There were no signs of her being malevolent at all" as she practically climaxes at every word in this speech...

It is being rushed to all hell I'll admit but that's just how it's been for the last two seasons. I'm sure the books will tie it all together when they definitely come out. I'm ALL for King Bran though, no matter how poorly it's done.
 

bye

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,429
Phoenix, AZ
Hilarious misrepresentation, but also expected at this point.

There's also team "they fucked up the mad queen heel turn and arc."

By having her best advisor die, by having Varys betray her, by having her best friend die, by having her two dragons die, by finding out her lover is her nephew and has a better claim than she does, by losing all her Dothraki at her fault, she finally breaks and talks about doing what she said multiple times in S7. So what is fucked up about it.
 
Dec 13, 2017
577
I'm not Team Dany, but if you're telling me her character hasn't been shafted this season you're blind. I think she can go mad in the books, but it will be with several hundred pages of development towards that case. If literally before this season the only hint at her going bad is burning oath breakers and slave owners then fuck that's a stretch. If she goes on to burn all the common people for NO REASON then of course, but that's shit writing, because she's kind of always been on the common people's side. She took a whole city without killing the common people by starting a rebellion from within. Now all of a sudden, she has to burn people for no reason? That's the problem with the leak too, it literally just says "Dany is burning people and Tyrion and Jon don't like it". Like who the hell is she burning? If Dany goes from "breaker of chains" to just burning common people that's such a drastic leap and change of character it's insane.

I'm team "make the story actually make sense" because it doesn't right now. The show will use her burning Varys as the catalyst towards all this "Mad Queen" stff, when she flat out told him not conspire against her because she would burn him. He's committing treason which should be punished by death, but the show will use that as the driving force of her being mad.

I still the leaks are BS, because aside from Dany the whole Bran situation makes 0 sense as well, not to mention that most everything the show has foreshadowed for 8 season will have been further shit on. Jon being a Targaryen is literally then only for the sole purpose of causing conflict with Dany. His lineage will have no other merit besides that.
 

Corky

Alt account
Banned
Dec 5, 2018
2,479
The show has never hinted at dany being 'mad'. Potentially brutal and unforgiving sure, but it's never actually implied she mentally unbalanced in anyway
 

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
I've been trying to formulate my final thoughts since I'm going to try to take a break from this thread for a while. I'll probably edit and repost this in the OT in two weeks when the finale airs.

I guess I finally know what TLJ detractors feel. I still think their disappointment with Luke's character arc stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of the Jedi and the Force, but I don't blame them for their misunderstanding. Decades of Star Wars media have provided a very muddled interpretation of the meaning of the Force, so I can see why they would be very confused and betrayed by a more spiritual and pacifist ending to Luke's character rather than something cool and badass. They thought they understood the character and his story and were instead left empty and unsatisfied.

But...at least he got an ending. At least he dies a hero.

When I think about Game of Thrones now, I just get this crushing sense of disappointment and emptiness. I've read the books three times, I've rewatched the show four times. I've spent hundreds of hours discussing and debating and theorizing. I loved this franchise and I evangelized it to everyone I knew. Even when the writing went off the rails in season 5, I still got immense enjoyment from the series. I would defend the series as a whole as being better than its individual parts. You can even find my posts, as recently as mid-April, defending the show as an entertaining spectacle unlike anything on TV. Now I look back on it all and just feel empty, like it was all a massive waste of my time.

Game of Thrones and ASOIAF were always a story with three major moving parts. There's the political war for the Iron Throne, starring Tyrion Lannister and a variety of others, in which dozens of houses wage war, make alliances, and stab each other in the back, to see who can accumulate the ultimate power. There's the mysteries of the north, starring Jon Snow, who is lost and feels without a destiny until he joins the Night's Watch and finds brotherhood and a new purpose: fighting a deadly enemy that knows no allegiance to any house and seeks only to destroy everything. And then, across the sea, is a third storyline segregated from the others. For five books (and counting) and six seasons, we follow the almost completely unrelated story of Daenerys Targaryen.

Dany is a teenage girl who was born amidst the collapse of her house and her family. As an infant, she gets shipped off to a foreign country with her brother. She grows up hearing stories of the life she could have had and the country her brother wants to rule. She just wants a family and a house with a red door. Viserys, who exhibits sadistic and perverse tendencies, tells her that one day he will marry her. She will never have a life of her own. Then he changes his mind and sells her off to a savage warlord instead, to be raped and used as property. This would be the end of her story. But it's not the end. She's stronger than Drogo, and bends him to her will. She makes him care for her as his equal. When Viserys oversteps his bounds and threatens her unborn child, she gets Drogo to kill him. Finally, she's taken control of her story. Dany starts to form her own identity: she is someone who wants to make the world better for the downtrodden, and to take the Iron Throne in the process. She tries to change the Dothraki and end their cruelty towards women. When Drogo is injured, she becomes desperate and enlists a witch to save him. Drogo is left in a coma and her unborn baby is dead.

She thought she could have a better life and now everything she loved was taken from her. Dejected, she steps into a pyre with her dragon eggs to die. But she doesn't die. She comes out, unburnt, with three dragons. They're the only children she'll ever know. She takes control of Drogo's khalasar and they set out to fulfill her mission. When she learns of the slavery in Astapor, Yunkai, and Meereen, she doesn't stand idly by and let these socially acceptable injustices continue to go unchallenged. Even as everyone around her tells her that's just how the world is, khaleesi, she refuses to accept it. She doesn't accept the world as it is. She wants to make it better. She frees the slaves and conquers their cities. In Meereen, where she finally has the army and the strength to sail to Westeros, she decides against it. Instead, she decides to remain in Meereen so she can learn how to rule. Winning was easy, young lady, governing's harder. She doesn't always succeed at what she tries to do. She tries things and sometimes they fail. Sometimes she does things that others call cruel, like executing the slave masters. But everything she does is guided by a sense of justice for those who can't fight for themselves. She's been told that her father went mad, and that she might too. She is ever-conscious of this. But she doesn't have to be like her father. She can be kind and strong instead of wicked and weak.

Eventually, after six years, she goes to Westeros to take back the Iron Throne and hopefully change it just a bit. Maybe she can make it just a little better. But thanks to the advice of the wise Tyrion and Varys -- and a little help from some of the worst and most contrived writing in TV history -- everything goes wrong. Her fleet is devastated, huge portions of her armies and her alliances are destroyed, and Jon Snow shows up with a wild story about walking dead men and the fate of the world. Dany could just ignore him. She could go to the Red Keep and wipe Cersei off the face of the planet. But she doesn't, because she trusts Jon, and she eventually loves him. Because what she really wants is the family she never had and a house with a red door. So she goes north to help him and loses one of her dragons, her baby, to a magic plot device so that the White Walkers can get through the Wall. Then she arrives in a Winterfell that doesn't accept her and treats her like vermin. But they're part of her kingdom, even if they don't want to be, and the more important war for the fate of all life is upon them, so she sets that aside and helps fight the dead. Dany loses a huge chunk of her army and is nearly killed. While Tyrion and Sansa are cowering in the crypts, Dany fights the dead herself, even picking up a sword and fighting them head-on when all hope seems lost. But when the battle is won, nobody thanks her. Nobody appreciates her help. She learns that Jon is apparently the real heir to the throne, although he can't prove it, and that his ungrateful sisters are trying to undermine her even after she risked everything for them.

This is where the story of Daenerys Targaryen ends, because the character that appears in the final three episodes is not her. She is a character who is warped and twisted into some hateful, psychotic, evil mass murderer because of a few betrayals, a few deaths, and some obscenely bad writing and plotholes so big they'd cause the entire planet to collapse on itself. And after everything she's been through, everything she's fought, everything she's beaten, and everyone she's inspired, it all ends in complete chaos and destruction and death. There was no point to any of it. She's dead, and she dies a terrible villain. No throne. No acceptance. No friends. No dragons. No love. No house with a red door. No family. Apparently, if you are ambitious and seek to change the world, you are a fool -- worse, a psychopath and a monster, one who deserves to have everything stripped away from you before your untimely death.

I don't know to what extent this story resembles the one that is yet to be told in the books, or may never be told. Frankly, I no longer care. I invested years of my life into this character and this story and this franchise -- as did millions of others -- and this was our reward. To be told that the person we admired, appreciated, and loved wasn't a hero or a liberator or even a good person, but an evil, violent, witch that has to be put down like a rabid dog. Apparently my understanding of the five books I read and 69 episodes I watched up to that point was wrong, as was the understanding of many others. We, apparently, completely and utterly misread the text and the character. We were fools, and we got played like fools.

I just feel empty thinking back on all of it. I feel like an idiot for caring and investing myself into this story and this character. I feel like it was all a massive waste of time and emotion.

I'll end it this way: this is not how I choose to remember this series, or this character. I choose to remember her as someone who was kind, who helped others, who looked out for the downtrodden. I choose to remember her as a liberator, just ruler, and protector of women and children. I choose to remember her as the scared young girl who bloomed into a strong and powerful woman. Most of all, I choose to remember her as Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen, Queen of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lady of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm, Queen of Meereen, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, the Unburnt, Breaker of Chains, and Mother of Dragons.

Thank you for the memories.

tenor.gif
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I think you misinterpreted Dany's story to some extent in the books. GRRM's not interested in keeping his characters' hands clean because he finds characters like boring. Everyone has some blood on their hands.

Daenerys' whole struggle has been the internal conflict between rescuing people and burning cities to get what is hers. The books have laid out a path where she's going to give into that temptation.

No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter, as if Ser Jorah were falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.

"Fire and Blood," Daenerys told the swaying grass.

She's a hero for saving the world against the White Walkers and a villain for burning down King's Landing.

It's not one or the other. GRRM doesn't believe in morality weighted on a scale. It's not black or white. And how Daenerys ends won't make what she did like saving the world and ending slavery pointless. Perhaps, you might find your investment in her pointless but personally, I find her story more impactful this way. She is ASOIAF's quintessential tragic heroine. We don't get many of those in fiction.

I'd recommend reading the Meereenese Blot if you haven't already since it's an essay series on Daenerys which GRRM said got it completely correct.

Meereense Blot:

Feldman: Overall the purpose of the Meereen arc was to transform Dany into a much darker character.

With that in mind, so many of the most-criticized aspects of this plotline make a great deal more sense. Our characters are supposed to be confused and frustrated about Meereenese politics. They are supposed to hate the city and conclude that staying there is a waste of time. They are supposed to feel this generic distrust for everyone, and to fail to grasp that their peaces were actually quite successful. Dany is supposed to conclude — wrongly — that her behavior through most of the book was silly and foolish. And if you came away with those impressions too, it's perfectly understandable.

But when you look past the unreliable narrator and POV-character bias, Martin's aim becomes clear. The whole plotline is designed to maneuver Dany into a mental place where she'll decide to sideline her concerns for innocent life, and take what she wants with fire and blood. Martin's triumph is in handling this character development in such a natural and organic way. He gives Dany as much agency as he can — her hand is never truly forced by the Harpy or slavers. He presents her with incredibly difficult situations, places her core values into conflict, and makes her choose. Her choices first go one way — then another.

Now, the transformation is complete. The Dany we knew at the end of ASOS is gone. The one who reaches Westeros will be a very different person. The dragons are now unchained, and the gloves are off.

Teora gave a tiny nod, chin trembling. "They were dancing. In my dream. And everywhere the dragons danced the people died." (TWOW ARIANNE I)

GRRM has been laying the seeds since book 1.

The Dothraki sacked cities and plundered kingdoms, they did not rule them. Dany had no wish to reduce King's Landing to a blackened ruin full of unquiet ghosts. She had supped enough on tears. I want to make my kingdom beautiful, to fill it with fat men and pretty maids and laughing children. I want my people to smile when they see me ride by, the way Viserys said they smiled for my father.

But before she could do that she must conquer.
 
Oct 27, 2017
8,659
The World
Do any of the non-book viewers actually not want Dany to just mount Drogon and burn Kings Landing?

Like, why the fuck should she care about the people in KL if the people don't care and Cersei definitely doesn't care.
 

Septy

Prophet of Truth
Member
Nov 29, 2017
4,092
United States
By having her best advisor die, by having Varys betray her, by having her best friend die, by having her two dragons die, by finding out her lover is her nephew and has a better claim than she does, by losing all her Dothraki at her fault, she finally breaks and talks about doing what she said multiple times in S7. So what is fucked up about it.
It would be understandable if these issues happened to Dany and only Dany but the show has done this to male characters too.
 

Redfox088

Banned
May 31, 2018
2,293
They did riot (killed a septon, threw shit at Joffrey) plus brought about the high sparrow too in an effort to undermine the power of the queen. The show has just forgotten this. What you say does not make them 'loyal' to her at all.
They did those things under queen Cersei? I think not. What have they done under her but gossip about the blown sept?
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
i didn't pull from outside material, i was simply pointing out that justice is never going to be achieved through mass execution, something that should be obvious even if the show does not state it explicitly.
You did tho. You brought up the books and even said the show doesn't make the point that shes killing innocent people. If by mass execution you mean mass execution of people mass executing and enslaving people then i disagree entirely. Especially given that she did more for those evil individuals than anyone else would by giving them a chance to live peacefully and not only did they refuse, they continue with the slavery, they killed freed slaves and repeatedly tried to kill Dany. Thats not the signs of a crazy person thats the signs of someone taking extreme measures after she was left with no other choice unless she wanted her life and the lives of slaves and the people she freed to be perpetually at risk.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,246
By having her best advisor die, by having Varys betray her, by having her best friend die, by having her two dragons die, by finding out her lover is her nephew and has a better claim than she does, by losing all her Dothraki at her fault, she finally breaks and talks about doing what she said multiple times in S7. So what is fucked up about it.

Umm LOL?

The execution of it all? You know, the thing that's been an issue for this season the past two episodes?

Good concepts butchered by poor execution?

Some of what you listed has already been done hilariously poorly (the criticism which has made up a significant part of the discussion in this and other threads).
 

bye

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,429
Phoenix, AZ
What does having dragons have to do with it? Stannis lost multiple battles and was betrayed by his advisors and men.

because Dany has had the tools to do exactly what her leak is saying she is going to do, unlike many other characters who are betrayed and suffer losses, for several seasons now. If Stannis had Drogon you can bet your ass he'd be doing the same fucking thing. But much like Dany, he knew it was more important to save Winterfell first which is why he died there.
 

bye

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,429
Phoenix, AZ
Umm LOL?

The execution of it all? You know, the thing that's been an issue for this season the past two episodes?

Good concepts butchered by poor execution?

Some of what you listed has already been done hilariously poorly (the criticism which has made up a significant part of the discussion in this and other threads).

You're talking preemptively about execution then. Because on paper what I listed is more than enough to cause any person to lose their shit. And in all reality, because of that, it should be very easy for DuNkIn DoNuTs to pull off.
 

Sensei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,590
Do any of the non-book viewers actually not want Dany to just mount Drogon and burn Kings Landing?

Like, why the fuck should she care about the people in KL if the people don't care and Cersei definitely doesn't care.
all my favorite characters are dead so Dany burning everything is epic imo. i wish they could start from the northernmost tip of Westeros and just start burning it all like mowing a lawn, heading all the way south. thatd be perfect. and then dany goes back to kings landing, sits on the iron throne and Drogon is in the throne room with her somehow (idk how big the door is or if he can fit, but idc) and he has her head at her feet and then she presses the button on his nose that makes him self destruct and they both die

Catelyn, Robb, Olenna, Brienne, Missandei are dead so idc anymore. bomb this bitch with no survivors lol
 

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
I'm not Team Dany, but if you're telling me her character hasn't been shafted this season you're blind. I think she can go mad in the books, but it will be with several hundred pages of development towards that case. If literally before this season the only hint at her going bad is burning oath breakers and slave owners then fuck that's a stretch. If she goes on to burn all the common people for NO REASON then of course, but that's shit writing, because she's kind of always been on the common people's side. She took a whole city without killing the common people by starting a rebellion from within. Now all of a sudden, she has to burn people for no reason? That's the problem with the leak too, it literally just says "Dany is burning people and Tyrion and Jon don't like it". Like who the hell is she burning? If Dany goes from "breaker of chains" to just burning common people that's such a drastic leap and change of character it's insane.

I'm team "make the story actually make sense" because it doesn't right now. The show will use her burning Varys as the catalyst towards all this "Mad Queen" stff, when she flat out told him not conspire against her because she would burn him. He's committing treason which should be punished by death, but the show will use that as the driving force of her being mad.

I still the leaks are BS, because aside from Dany the whole Bran situation makes 0 sense as well, not to mention that most everything the show has foreshadowed for 8 season will have been further shit on. Jon being a Targaryen is literally then only for the sole purpose of causing conflict with Dany. His lineage will have no other merit besides that.

Jon's heritage is meant to destroy him and any chance he has at happiness with Daenerys rather than give him everything he wants.

It's a trope played in the opposite way that you expect because Jon doesn't want the throne and his newfound heritage rips at the fabric of his identity and burdens him. Everything he did, he did as Ned Stark's son.

If he had really just been Ned Stark's bastard then we would have King Jon and Queen Daenerys. Jon's heritage denies that ending.

This person got close to the mark as to what it actually means years ago:

Thanks for the question, Anon.
Well, if the only point of Jon's arc was to ride a dragon, no, it wouldn't change anything. But surely that's not all there is to Jon, right?

Number one I think, a careful distinction needs to be drawn. Jon isn't a Targaryen. Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. There's a key difference there. Jon won't do what he does heroically because he's a Targaryen and only Targaryens can be heroes, that's silly. Hell, I doubt if, by the end of the story, more than a handful of characters are even aware. Jon was the son of Rhaegar. His story is not a House Targaryen story (in contrast to that of Daenerys, which is very very much a Targaryen story): he's not going to claim the Iron Throne, he's not going to rule the Seven Kingdoms, he's not going to fly with a dragon banner fluttering beside him and his breastplate decorated with a ruby three-headed dragon.

He is, however, a child of prophecy, and that's my second point. Jon is an in-your-face classic hero, right - the one who starts as a down-on-his-luck boy, roses in this ancient institution, and becomes an obvious leader against a major supernatural threat. He's pointedly and immediately sympathetic from the first. So obviously, a good classic hero needs this miraculous birth story, right (something something gods and wonders always appear), and he has one! Rhaegar, the lost silver prince, last Prince of Dragonstone, handsome and chivalric, this guy who was apparently great at everything; Lyanna Stark, beautiful and brave, willing to stand up for the defenseless, a scion of that most cherished family, House Stark.

But then you realize - Jon doesn't get a power-up from that parentage. Instead, everything is totally fucked up about that. Rhaegar broke every chivalric and dynastic code by absconding with Lyanna - daughter of the Lord Paramount of the North, sister of his future Lord of Winterfell, the betrothed of his Lord Paramount of the Stormlands......

So instead of being the ideal prince, the son of the great Rhaegar and the lovely Lyanna, Jon is the prophecy-conceived child of a prophecy-obsessed prince who was willing to throw his realm into war to fulfill what he thought was necessary and his captive teenage vessel. Jon only exists because Rhaegar thought his conception would fulfill a prophetic vision (much in the same way Rhaegar himself was conceived). It's glorious and horrible all at once: sure, Stark and Targaryen blood make a potent combo, but fuck man, you got it in the worst possible way. Poor Jon has lived his life in a crisis of identity, and now he finally gets the answer to his biggest personal question: his father is the man whose actions led to the death of Rickard and Brandon and was the villain of the popular telling of Robert's Rebellion, his mother was the woman that prince ran away with, about whom his adoptive father rarely talked because the memory of her made him so sad, and his adoptive father spent his entire marriage hiding the truth of Jon's parentage from his beloved wife because he couldn't risk his best friend murdering baby Jon for the accident of his birth.

Poor Jon. He's going to be devastated by that news. And that revelation is going to become a question for the remainder of his arc - am I a hero because I choose to be a hero, or because I was destined to be a hero from before I was born? And that's the question of ASOIAF, isn't it? So much of the story is hammering in that being a hero isn't this glorious destiny for a chosen few. Being a hero sucks. And it's hard. And you do it even though you might never get recognized for doing it.

So I don't see R+L=J as a plot device, per se; rather, it's, as @poorquentyn says, is the ultimate expression of that theme. It's a way to demonstrate that heart in conflict, the key axis of GRRM's story. Are you defined by what came before you, or are you what you choose to be? Are you the hero because it's been foretold you would be the hero and you're just another gear in the machine of prophecy, or are you someone who chooses to act in the hope of spring against the cold and darkness of winter? Or, alternately, are you able to escape what came before you, or are you bound to repeat the madness and blunders of those who came before you? Are all people, as Tyrion thinks, "puppets dancing on the strings of those who came before us", or are we our own characters with destinies we make for ourselves - good or ill?

The Queen Regent (NFriel)
 

John Dunbar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,229
You did tho. You brought up the books and even said the show doesn't make the point that shes killing innocent people. If by mass execution you mean mass execution of people mass executing and enslaving people then i disagree entirely. Especially given that she did more for those evil individuals than anyone else would by giving them a chance to live peacefully and not only did they refuse, they continue with the slavery, they killed freed slaves and repeatedly tried to kill Dany. Thats not the signs of a crazy person thats the signs of someone taking extreme measures after she was left with no other choice unless she wanted her life and the lives of slaves and the people she freed to be perpetually at risk.

except it turned out that it was actually in the show and i just didn't remember it, so i didn't need to mention the books at all (though the point still seems to have gone over your head). dany's pet maybe-husband (so loyal he died for her) claimed innocent people were killed. clearly the show presented the possibility she brutally murdered people who did not deserve it (if anyone ever deserves it), and it is extremely likely she did considering we have no reason to think she took any great steps in ensuring their guilt. so if dany crucified even a single innocent person, does she not deserve to die like so many she has killed?
 
Last edited:
Oct 27, 2017
8,659
The World
all my favorite characters are dead so Dany burning everything is epic imo. i wish they could start from the northernmost tip of Westeros and just start burning it all like mowing a lawn, heading all the way south. thatd be perfect. and then dany goes back to kings landing, sits on the iron throne and Drogon is in the throne room with her somehow (idk how big the door is or if he can fit, but idc) and he has her head at her feet and then she presses the button on his nose that makes him self destruct and they both die

Catelyn, Robb, Olenna, Brienne, Missandei are dead so idc anymore. bomb this bitch with no survivors lol

Beyond that even...Cersei literally blows up the Sept and the people in KL still support her? OK.

People will be fucking cheering when Dany burns KL to the ground is my guess. Gone Mad? Nah - she's doing what she has always wanted to do.
 

bye

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,429
Phoenix, AZ
Jon's heritage is meant to destroy him and any chance he has at happiness with Daenerys rather than give him everything he wants.

It's a trope played in the opposite way that you expect because Jon doesn't want the throne and his newfound heritage rips at the fabric of his identity and burdens him. Everything he did, he did as Ned Stark's son.

If he had really just been Ned Stark's bastard then we would have King Jon and Queen Daenerys. Jon's heritage denies that ending.

This person got close to the mark as to what it actually means years ago:

Thanks for the question, Anon.
Well, if the only point of Jon's arc was to ride a dragon, no, it wouldn't change anything. But surely that's not all there is to Jon, right?

Number one I think, a careful distinction needs to be drawn. Jon isn't a Targaryen. Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. There's a key difference there. Jon won't do what he does heroically because he's a Targaryen and only Targaryens can be heroes, that's silly. Hell, I doubt if, by the end of the story, more than a handful of characters are even aware. Jon was the son of Rhaegar. His story is not a House Targaryen story (in contrast to that of Daenerys, which is very very much a Targaryen story): he's not going to claim the Iron Throne, he's not going to rule the Seven Kingdoms, he's not going to fly with a dragon banner fluttering beside him and his breastplate decorated with a ruby three-headed dragon.

He is, however, a child of prophecy, and that's my second point. Jon is an in-your-face classic hero, right - the one who starts as a down-on-his-luck boy, roses in this ancient institution, and becomes an obvious leader against a major supernatural threat. He's pointedly and immediately sympathetic from the first. So obviously, a good classic hero needs this miraculous birth story, right (something something gods and wonders always appear), and he has one! Rhaegar, the lost silver prince, last Prince of Dragonstone, handsome and chivalric, this guy who was apparently great at everything; Lyanna Stark, beautiful and brave, willing to stand up for the defenseless, a scion of that most cherished family, House Stark.

But then you realize - Jon doesn't get a power-up from that parentage. Instead, everything is totally fucked up about that. Rhaegar broke every chivalric and dynastic code by absconding with Lyanna - daughter of the Lord Paramount of the North, sister of his future Lord of Winterfell, the betrothed of his Lord Paramount of the Stormlands......

So instead of being the ideal prince, the son of the great Rhaegar and the lovely Lyanna, Jon is the prophecy-conceived child of a prophecy-obsessed prince who was willing to throw his realm into war to fulfill what he thought was necessary and his captive teenage vessel. Jon only exists because Rhaegar thought his conception would fulfill a prophetic vision (much in the same way Rhaegar himself was conceived). It's glorious and horrible all at once: sure, Stark and Targaryen blood make a potent combo, but fuck man, you got it in the worst possible way. Poor Jon has lived his life in a crisis of identity, and now he finally gets the answer to his biggest personal question: his father is the man whose actions led to the death of Rickard and Brandon and was the villain of the popular telling of Robert's Rebellion, his mother was the woman that prince ran away with, about whom his adoptive father rarely talked because the memory of her made him so sad, and his adoptive father spent his entire marriage hiding the truth of Jon's parentage from his beloved wife because he couldn't risk his best friend murdering baby Jon for the accident of his birth.

Poor Jon. He's going to be devastated by that news. And that revelation is going to become a question for the remainder of his arc - am I a hero because I choose to be a hero, or because I was destined to be a hero from before I was born? And that's the question of ASOIAF, isn't it? So much of the story is hammering in that being a hero isn't this glorious destiny for a chosen few. Being a hero sucks. And it's hard. And you do it even though you might never get recognized for doing it.

So I don't see R+L=J as a plot device, per se; rather, it's, as @poorquentyn says, is the ultimate expression of that theme. It's a way to demonstrate that heart in conflict, the key axis of GRRM's story. Are you defined by what came before you, or are you what you choose to be? Are you the hero because it's been foretold you would be the hero and you're just another gear in the machine of prophecy, or are you someone who chooses to act in the hope of spring against the cold and darkness of winter? Or, alternately, are you able to escape what came before you, or are you bound to repeat the madness and blunders of those who came before you? Are all people, as Tyrion thinks, "puppets dancing on the strings of those who came before us", or are we our own characters with destinies we make for ourselves - good or ill?

The Queen Regent (NFriel)

I haven't finished reading this yet but I saw someone point out (which is probably totally not how the scenes were intended) that Jon refusing to get say goodbye to Ghost and skipping out on flying Rhaegal is him dealing with this burden of his parentage. He doesn't want to get close to either side anymore.
 

Septy

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because Dany has had the tools to do exactly what her leak is saying she is going to do, unlike many other characters who are betrayed and suffer losses, for several seasons now. If Stannis had Drogon you can bet your ass he'd be doing the same fucking thing. But much like Dany, he knew it was more important to save Winterfell first which is why he died there.
Stannis had the tools to take winterfell but half his army and Mel betrayed him before the battle. Same thing is happening to Dany right now.
 

bye

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
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Stannis had the tools to take winterfell but half his army and Mel betrayed him before the battle. Same thing is happening to Dany right now.

So you're saying by the same logic Stannis is supposed to.... jump over the castle walls and butcher civilians?

Yeah this is why I brought dragons into the discussion.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,246
You're talking preemptively about execution then. Because on paper what I listed is more than enough to cause any person to lose their shit. And in all reality, because of that, it should be very easy for DuNkIn DoNuTs to pull off.

Ah yes, preemptively despite having seen some of what you listed. I guess we just need to wait 2 more episodes to see how the show runners handle it, despite how they already handled everything else so far.

"Very easy to pull off"

LOL. They had to get Euron with an aimbot to kill one Dragon. Forgive me for having little faith in their ability.
 

Eugene's Axe

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Jan 17, 2019
3,620
So Daenerys didn't become the mad queen because the traits of her father but because she crossed paths witn a bunch of morons including tne Strak bunch. I think I won't be able to rewatch this series in the future knowing that everytime I see Daenerys I will know the stupid causes of her downfall. Let's see if these final episodes manage to make me hate Davos and Ghost as well.
 

Septy

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So you're saying by the same logic Stannis is supposed to.... jump over the castle walls and butcher civilians?

Yeah this is why I brought dragons into the discussion.
Now we're talking about her killing civilians what? You're not making any sense about how it's misogynistic for dany to lose half her army, lose and be betrayed but the same happened to stannis.
 

ishan

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Oct 27, 2017
2,192
I hope the books do the ending in reverse order. Ie. Resolve the throne question then deal with the Others. Or resolve both at same time by killing Cersei and holding off on politics until after the Others are defeated. Either way, Jon could get Lightbringer by killing Dany, use that to win, and then run away to the north to avoid the politics.

Or something like that. I dunno. It just seems lame to end the series with fighting over the throne, the Long Night should have been the real final boss imo.
I doubt it. Grrm has said he has questions with fantasy endings after the big bad dies. That it doesnt mean evil is gone. At the end of lotr just cause sauron is gone what happens to all the orcs. Do you kill them all . What about orc children etc. That he wanted to explore this aftermath or something along those lines from what ive read. So I can totally see him ending the white walker's plot early / mid way in book 7 and spend a substantion part resolving how even after the big bad is gone this world is still prety shit etc. You see it here now that the big evil is gone ppl are now back to scheming and undermining others and causing a mess killing ppl over power etc. Its just a bad rush job by d and d. Theyve got the overall arc etc but just seem tired of it and want it over with instead of doing all these arcs justice.
 
Dec 13, 2017
577
Jon's heritage is meant to destroy him and any chance he has at happiness with Daenerys rather than give him everything he wants.

It's a trope played in the opposite way that you expect because Jon doesn't want the throne and his newfound heritage rips at the fabric of his identity and burdens him. Everything he did, he did as Ned Stark's son.

If he had really just been Ned Stark's bastard then we would have King Jon and Queen Daenerys. Jon's heritage denies that ending.

This person got close to the mark as to what it actually means years ago:

Thanks for the question, Anon.
Well, if the only point of Jon's arc was to ride a dragon, no, it wouldn't change anything. But surely that's not all there is to Jon, right?

Number one I think, a careful distinction needs to be drawn. Jon isn't a Targaryen. Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. There's a key difference there. Jon won't do what he does heroically because he's a Targaryen and only Targaryens can be heroes, that's silly. Hell, I doubt if, by the end of the story, more than a handful of characters are even aware. Jon was the son of Rhaegar. His story is not a House Targaryen story (in contrast to that of Daenerys, which is very very much a Targaryen story): he's not going to claim the Iron Throne, he's not going to rule the Seven Kingdoms, he's not going to fly with a dragon banner fluttering beside him and his breastplate decorated with a ruby three-headed dragon.

He is, however, a child of prophecy, and that's my second point. Jon is an in-your-face classic hero, right - the one who starts as a down-on-his-luck boy, roses in this ancient institution, and becomes an obvious leader against a major supernatural threat. He's pointedly and immediately sympathetic from the first. So obviously, a good classic hero needs this miraculous birth story, right (something something gods and wonders always appear), and he has one! Rhaegar, the lost silver prince, last Prince of Dragonstone, handsome and chivalric, this guy who was apparently great at everything; Lyanna Stark, beautiful and brave, willing to stand up for the defenseless, a scion of that most cherished family, House Stark.

But then you realize - Jon doesn't get a power-up from that parentage. Instead, everything is totally fucked up about that. Rhaegar broke every chivalric and dynastic code by absconding with Lyanna - daughter of the Lord Paramount of the North, sister of his future Lord of Winterfell, the betrothed of his Lord Paramount of the Stormlands......

So instead of being the ideal prince, the son of the great Rhaegar and the lovely Lyanna, Jon is the prophecy-conceived child of a prophecy-obsessed prince who was willing to throw his realm into war to fulfill what he thought was necessary and his captive teenage vessel. Jon only exists because Rhaegar thought his conception would fulfill a prophetic vision (much in the same way Rhaegar himself was conceived). It's glorious and horrible all at once: sure, Stark and Targaryen blood make a potent combo, but fuck man, you got it in the worst possible way. Poor Jon has lived his life in a crisis of identity, and now he finally gets the answer to his biggest personal question: his father is the man whose actions led to the death of Rickard and Brandon and was the villain of the popular telling of Robert's Rebellion, his mother was the woman that prince ran away with, about whom his adoptive father rarely talked because the memory of her made him so sad, and his adoptive father spent his entire marriage hiding the truth of Jon's parentage from his beloved wife because he couldn't risk his best friend murdering baby Jon for the accident of his birth.

Poor Jon. He's going to be devastated by that news. And that revelation is going to become a question for the remainder of his arc - am I a hero because I choose to be a hero, or because I was destined to be a hero from before I was born? And that's the question of ASOIAF, isn't it? So much of the story is hammering in that being a hero isn't this glorious destiny for a chosen few. Being a hero sucks. And it's hard. And you do it even though you might never get recognized for doing it.

So I don't see R+L=J as a plot device, per se; rather, it's, as @poorquentyn says, is the ultimate expression of that theme. It's a way to demonstrate that heart in conflict, the key axis of GRRM's story. Are you defined by what came before you, or are you what you choose to be? Are you the hero because it's been foretold you would be the hero and you're just another gear in the machine of prophecy, or are you someone who chooses to act in the hope of spring against the cold and darkness of winter? Or, alternately, are you able to escape what came before you, or are you bound to repeat the madness and blunders of those who came before you? Are all people, as Tyrion thinks, "puppets dancing on the strings of those who came before us", or are we our own characters with destinies we make for ourselves - good or ill?

The Queen Regent (NFriel)

That's very well written, but that's not really the way it's being conveyed in the show. Jon's biggest struggle with his parentage so far is the fact that Dany is his aunt, not really the conundrum of him being a hero. Him being a child of prophecy is really only a thing in the books too, because for all intents and purposes, in the show Rhaegar and Lyanna got married out of love. That love led to the realm going to war, but it's not because Jon was prophecized as this great hero or anything. Right now, it seems like Jon being a Targ is solely to help drive in Dany's madness, because of his claim to the Iron Throne. Something he's said he does not want or will make a claim on, because he's sworn fealty to Dany. It's now being used as a tool for the people to use to conspire against her. Like Varys and Sansa, who don't like Dany despite Dany saving both of them and not really doing much wrong as of yet. It comes off bad, because Sansa has this vendetta despite Dany really helping the North. Maybe the show is trying to paint Dany and Jon as these tragic characters who are victims to the circumstances around them. On paper, it could lead to something nice, but with the way that show has been written and dealt with these themes up until now, it doesn't seem like the show will convey those themes appropriately.

Essentially, I don't have an issue with what the leaks or what that post is trying to say, it's the poor presentation on executing those ideas .So the overall themes behind these plot points lose impact because everything is being written right now seemingly to get to this point, instead of it happening organically in the story. It feels forced, which is why people have a problem with it.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,790
"There were no signs of her being malevolent at all" as she practically climaxes at every word in this speech...

It is being rushed to all hell I'll admit but that's just how it's been for the last two seasons. I'm sure the books will tie it all together when they definitely come out. I'm ALL for King Bran though, no matter how poorly it's done.


Yeah, I've never really warmed to Dany because of shit like this. She didn't really care about what was best for Westeros she just wanted to rule it because she felt it was hers to rule. She's fine unleashing an army of rapists and slavers on the land she wants to rule.
I think you misinterpreted Dany's story to some extent in the books. GRRM's not interested in keeping his characters' hands clean because he finds characters like boring. Everyone has some blood on their hands.

Daenerys' whole struggle has been the internal conflict between rescuing people and burning cities to get what is hers. The books have laid out a path where she's going to give into that temptation.



She's a hero for saving the world against the White Walkers and a villain for burning down King's Landing.

It's not one or the other. GRRM doesn't believe in morality weighted on a scale. It's not black or white. And how Daenerys ends won't make what she did like saving the world and ending slavery pointless. Perhaps, you might find your investment in her pointless but personally, I find her story more impactful this way. She is ASOIAF's quintessential tragic heroine. We don't get many of those in fiction.

I'd recommend reading the Meereenese Blot if you haven't already since it's an essay series on Daenerys which GRRM said got it completely correct.

Meereense Blot:





GRRM has been laying the seeds since book 1.

I never read this before. Really interesting stuff. I haven't read ADWD since it first released but I've been thinking about reading it again soon. I'll definitely be reading it with all this in mind.
 

bye

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
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Now we're talking about her killing civilians what? You're not making any sense about how it's misogynistic for dany to lose half her army, lose and be betrayed but the same happened to stannis.

I had no idea where you were going with the conversation. I was assuming you were trying to say its misogynistic that only Dany went "mad" after losing people/army and using Stannis as an example of a male character who "didn't"

I still don't get what you're trying to say.
 

Septy

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I had no idea where you were going with the conversation. I was assuming you were trying to say its misogynistic that only Dany went "mad" after losing people/army and using Stannis as an example of a male character who "didn't"

I still don't get what you're trying to say.
No I was saying it was silly people are saying it's misogynistic for Danny losing her battle for the throne and her advisors betraying her when this has happened to male characters too.
 

Deleted member 35011

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You know, after rewatching the MY LITTLE CROW scene and the "real north" from the last episode, I'm now convinced that Jon's happy ending would be banishing himself. "Oh...oh no I can't get involved in politics anymore how awful."
 

Disclaimer

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Oct 25, 2017
11,582
Regardless of people's interpretations of George R.R. Martin's vague comments, or their own flawed memory of the text, Daenerys is probably not on track for the ending the show is apparently giving her. (Some of the struggles? Yes, sure.)

The showrunners have completely reversed the upcoming narratives of TWOW and ADOS. We knew this when the White Walkers were defeated in Episode 3 to make way for Cersei as the Final Boss. The entire thematic crux of the novels is the complete opposite — that the petty squabbling of the Iron Throne would be pointless when the true enemy arrives. (Hint: the book series' name is "A Song of Ice and Fire," not "Game of Thrones.")

Book!Daenerys is certainly on track to become a darker character, deciding when last we left her to reject Meereen, reject peace, and embrace Fire and Blood against the slavers. She's primed to enter Westeros with her right of lawful succession having already been usurped by a rival claimant in the Golden Company's fAegon, who has the ostensibly better claim ("A cloth dragon swaying on poles amidst a cheering crowd"). And she'll destroy him.

Coupled with the Chekhov's Wildfire under King's Landing, it's likely Daenerys will unintentionally and tragically light the city ablaze — possibly literally destroying her dream of the Iron Throne. She'll have to face herself at her worst, what she didn't want to be, in order to become the hero the realm needs by going North and confronting the White Walker threat.

Her King's Landing arc is coming before her Long Night arc, and Jon is not the rival claimant she'll fight against. fAegon and Euron are her immediate adversaries when she lands, the threats who will draw out and make her confront all her inner darkness, before endeavoring to be worthy and save the realm as only she can; after all, we'll need her Fire to defeat the Ice, and the order of events only makes dramatic (and temporal) sense one way. It's quite probable she'll die in the Northern conflict, sacrificing her life for the greater good in penance, but she will not die as a mad tyrant.

What is misogynistic about her ending? Please, educate me.

What is misogynistic? This entire season has been spent with people musing about her sanity in unearned fashion (the worst she's done of late is execute the Tarlys, which is not incomparable to Jon Snow executing his assailants — among them a child), in ways inconsistent with their previous characterization (see: Varys' previous stanning of her to Tyrion), literally evoking Dick Makes Right primogeniture — a bit of world-building the show cast aside irreverently seasons ago with the Sand Snakes' unlawful ascension.

As has been laid out ad nauseam by others, Daenerys' struggles have been completely artificial for the past two seasons. She decides to do something that would end the show in her favor, her advisors tell her to do something else, that fails catastrophically. When she follows her impulses, the show contrives ways in which she fails (see: Euron's teleporting ninja fleet with ballistae that defy lore and physics), then she's condescended to.

It would be shorter to list what isn't misogynistic about the show's writing this season (and, to a lesser extent, in general).
  • Whenever two women meet, they must behave bitchily toward one another. Last season it was Sansa and Arya, this season it's Sansa and Daenerys (in the tired trope of "I hate my brother/father/son/male friend's girlfriend"), or otherwise die motivationally (see: Missandei).
  • The Hound makes a gross comment about Sansa's raping, then Sansa — with words put in her mouth by D&D — says that the trauma (read: rape, abuse) she's endured has been character building. (Hey, guys, rape isn't empowering. Women don't need to be raped to grow beyond being "little birds." Take your grimdark cynicism elsewhere.)
  • Emoshunal Women's emoshuns (Cersei, Daenerys, etc) are constantly appealed to by Reasonable Men (Tyrion, Jon, etc).
The men are failing upward (unwittingly showcased in hilarious fashion with scene of Jon Snow being jerked off for things Daenerys pioneered), while the women go insane, because reality warps to defy them. Ambitious? Bitchy! Emotional? Unstable! Where's the nearest man for the job?
 

Deleted member 52442

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someone remind me - Dany has overthrown at least two places by just killing the leaders right? Not the commoners?
 

Sinder

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Dude, let's dispense with the bullshit and just say D&D can do no wrong in your eyes.

You don't know what you're talking about. I eviscerated them for Season 5 and the shit dialogue in S8E1. Ive said numerous times the books are objectively better. They've made big mistakes in the priorities of the show post-S5. But this team sport bullshit where these shitty memes get regurgitated every page that amount to nothing more than "D&D are literally the worst" are dumb, and I'll call them out for being dumb. If you don't like it, you can use the ignore feature.
 
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