One Year Later - 'The Last Jedi: The Power of Story'
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I thought the film was OK, but I can't really argue with any of that.
Having Rey basically stuck on an island for 75% of movie listening to Luke whine and "not really" train her is kinda wasting what should be the protagonist of the story, and then "mopey Luke" kinda takes over the 3rd act of the movie too.
Like yeah I get the whole "you know what, we're going to subvert what everyone expects by Luke NOT training Rey! Because everyone expects him to train Rey, so we're not gonna do that!" ... OK, yes, but then why is she basically held on the island, not growing as a character for about 75% of the movie?
If anything Luke takes over too much of the movie. If that's the direction you wanted to go in, then his role and Rey's time on the island needed to be scaled back and the 3rd act should be about Rey primarily. But they kinda wanted their cake (subvert the Luke as a mentor archetype) but eat it too (still he's Luke Skywalker, even if he's a bit of a jerk, he's going to basically take over the movie!).
Either he is a character that is helping the main character advanced her plot, if he's not, then having him hold her back (basically) for most of the movie just for subversion's sake is a plot problem.
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It is the first Star Wars in a long time that felt ambitious, grand and visionary. Something I've been waiting for... like, for ages. Character arcs were inspired, interesting and brutal when necessary. Protagonists didn't feel one-dimensional. Lot's of twists. And the cinematography. Oh, the cinematography.
Best main line Star Wars movie since Empire. RotJ is pretty close to it, though.
The negative reactions to the movie will mean that Disney is going to play it really safe from now on. Which is the REAL damage done to Star Wars.
Best main line Star Wars movie since Empire. RotJ is pretty close to it, though.
The negative reactions to the movie will mean that Disney is going to play it really safe from now on. Which is the REAL damage done to Star Wars.
After second watching, I feel like the good parts are really good and the bad parts are really bad.
So when I think about the movie, I have really mixed feelings.
So when I think about the movie, I have really mixed feelings.
Let's hope not. Rian still being in the seat for his own trilogy gives me hope Disney won't play it safe.
I can understand your point of view that Rey has too little to do in the 3d act, because her act kind of ends when she rejects Kylo's offer. But personally I don't mind.
I don't agree about Rey being 'stuck' on the island. Luke DOES train Rey, even though maybe he does it unwillingly. Rey grows by encountering a pessimistic and unwilling Luke. Luke, who she has places all her hope in, is her challenge to overcome. You could argue she learns more on Ach-to than Luke did on Jagobah. Maybe not in the way of Jedi tricks, but she does on a philosophical and personal level. Luke rejecting her is exactly what she needed to grow as a character, as it is completely opposed to what she expected. It forces her to change. This, to me, makes TLJ so great. It's not because it 'subverts' our expectations, it's because it subverts those of the characters. It makes the deliberate, dramatic choice to give our characters the hardest, personal hurdles to overcome, which leads to strong drama and strong arcs.
A character absolutely should be hold back and sabotaged and challenged. Otherwise you don't have conflict, and without conflict you don't have a story.
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Like they haven't played it painfully safe so far?? Everything they've put out has been safe, with creativity muffled --- TFA being ANH-redux, Rogue One having its director hamstrung with reshoots and composer sacked at the last minute, even choosing "Solo" as the concept for the 2nd standalone film, and then not letting the creative visionaries of Lord & Miller carry forward their work to completion, axing the extended universe and then releasing mainly sub-par quality books, Rebels & Resistance show being their only TV output, catered to undiscerning kids under the age of 10 etc.
Even TLJ, which spent about 70% of its time riffing amateurly off of ESB and ROTJ or just being painfully cliché or nonsensical, and 30% of the time deliberately "subverting expectations", but just for the sake of subverting expectations and not in any way that made sense for the story, for the characters etc.
This.
TFA had a great setup and mysteries that, I hoped, would be answered in TLJ. Except, those mysteries got shot to hell the moment Luke simply tossed away that lightsaber. The lightsaber calling to Rey, to me, felt like she had a huge connection to the Skywalker family ... the visions that followed shortly after we're interesting. I mean, these visions could have been anybody. Ranging from Ahsoka to Kanan/Ezra (for example). But it was Obi-Wan, Darth Vader, Sidious, Yoda and Luke. She even saw Kylo Ren/Ben Solo ... why? If the Force is trying to show her things she could've seen Mace getting tossed out the window? Why is this saber calling her through the Force? I imagine there's a fuckton of sabers somewhere in the sand on Geonosis? Or down the drain on Corruscant? The Last Jedi did nothing with the mystery itself ... hell, the first thing it did was show Luke tossing it away like it was nothing.
Well, the alternative to Rian Johnson writing to script to subvert expectations just for the sake of subverting expectations is that he actually is just a bad writer with a weak grasp of Star Wars lore. Maybe it was both?
I'm tired of reading this lazy and nonsensical bullshit
Rian Johnson is capable of writing good movies. He is.
But not a Star Wars movie.
It's like he took every mystery out of the Force Awakens and thought to himself : "How am I going to expand on this? O wait! Let's just ... make sure I unravel the mystery in the most dumb-ass way possible in order to get it all out of the way so I can expand the universe with random shit!? Yeah! That'll work!".
Who is Snoke - killed Snoke
Who is Rey - a nobody
Ben Solo - ... what did he accomplish? ally?
Force Vision - don't give a shit
O! Let's include Yoda for no apparent reason - profit.
That's about it.
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How exactly does a movie subvert expectations just for the sake of subverting expectations? How do you measure that? By just going "yep, it's fake subverting of expectations"? I mean, some guy once told me that people liking TLJ is proof for a growing intellectual dishonesty in our society, but your argument is almost equally... creative.
There is actually one thing I saw this year that reinforced my opinion of this film.
Making Ray a nobody was certainly the right call after seeing how Fantastic Beasts disastrously handled Credence and it's big twist of him being a Dumbledore.
I'm fine with fans liking The Last Jedi.
I really, really hate it. Yes, there's some bits and pieces I really liked .. but other than that? No. It's like The Last Jedi put on the try-hard pants just to be different. And, in the end, it worked for 50% and didn't work for the other 50%.
- Ben killed his abusive mentor and assumed control of the First Order. He failed to turn Rey, but it's clear he was planning to use her in order to kill Snoke. He succeeded in that respect.
- The Force vision didn't leave any unanswered questions?
- No reason for Yoda? His scene reinforces one of the key themes of the film. Luke has to accept his mistakes and learn from them and in turn, Rey can learn from him. A cameo from his old master gives him the kick up the arse he needed.
Here's the thing, It's okay to not like it or to be unsatisfied or to think the movie is dumb, but responses like these are unintentionally toxifying the waters with dismissive vitriol. Or, you are misinterpreting things.
Who is snoke, who is rey, ben solos arc, yoda...they all have explicit and easily discernible thematic purposes that structurally are important to the film (or at least, what it is trying to achieve). If you can't see that, then you don't understand the movie. If you do see that and hate it, that's a different thing. But when you come in and say things like "for no apparent reason", that's straight up bait for the defense force. Since there is a clear and apparent reason for Yoda, things shift from a conversation to a "correction". And "corrections" to posts that are mostly just misdirected venting don't work out too productively.
And sometimes it's hard to identify when people are sad or mad or disappointed and just want to let it out, or when they actually want to get nerdy and dive into elements of the film.
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I thought everything up to the Kylo/Rey/Snokes confrontation was great, as welll as the ending with Luke and Kylo.
Everything that happened between Snokes' fall and Luke facing Kylo brought the movie down. They should have skipped all that in-between stuff, as it was pointless and gave me prequel cringes.
Everything that happened between Snokes' fall and Luke facing Kylo brought the movie down. They should have skipped all that in-between stuff, as it was pointless and gave me prequel cringes.
Where do you guys come up with this behind the scenes fan fiction?
If you followed the development of the movie at all, you'd know Rian's approach was simple: create a challenge for each character to overcome.
Rey - a reluctant teacher and her past.
Kylo - his master (and Luke at the end, and failed).
Luke - past demons.
Poe - his own character flaws.
Finn - his own notions of right/wrong and of course Phasma.
Each character in this movie fundamentally rebuilt who they are. Think about that for a second. That's a huge achievement.
Sure, there are problems with the movie. The mutiny. Canto. But for the most part a triumphant success.
Rian's approach was really simple, imo: what are the conflicts that best serve the development of each character? Now, I think everyone has their gripes on the execution of each of those conflicts (for me, the biggest gripe I have is Finn's), but he came at the story not wanting to do what was best for the audience, but for the characters themselves.
Also, I have a problem with the "TLJ squandered all of the setups from TFA" argument. Mostly because I think there is a difference between ideas and/or characters being introduced and those same things being actually set up. Like, the appearance of an object or a person, isn't really setup, if nothing about them is explored. It's just an introduction to it/them. TFA introduced a ton of stuff, but a lot of it had really no setup. It's one of the problems with JJ Abrams storytelling - throw a ton of stuff in and develop some of it, but leave further setup and any payoff to someone else. Most of what was actually set up in TFA was addressed in TLJ, just in a way that many didn't happen to like. And that's totally fine not to like them.
TFA didn't have NEARLY as many mysteries as people think. And, arguably the only mystery that was relevant to the story, who are Rey's parents and where did she come from, is answered really in the best and only way it could have been answered. I just think people expected, for whatever reason, all these shocking revelations, and yet when the answer to the Rey question was actually logical, people got upset and felt Rian Johnson purposefully shat on those mysteries just for the sake of subverting expectations. It's weird. People complain about how small the galaxy feels in this trilogy (something I kind of agree with) and yet people want Rey to be connected to the Skywalkers? More connections? Are the only powerful people from this family?
Who is Snoke? Who cares, he's a secondary villain who is in TFA for what, 2 minutes?
People also complain about how Luke was handled in TLJ, that Rian just stuck him there to be a grumpy asshole. People forget TFA put him on that island. Han even says that a terrible event happened to him and he just walked away from everything. That implies (or flat out states) that for some reason Luke felt he had to give up and remove himself from the situation. If in TLJ he's just there for training or whatever, it goes against what we were told in TFA.
Who is Snoke? Who cares, he's a secondary villain who is in TFA for what, 2 minutes?
People also complain about how Luke was handled in TLJ, that Rian just stuck him there to be a grumpy asshole. People forget TFA put him on that island. Han even says that a terrible event happened to him and he just walked away from everything. That implies (or flat out states) that for some reason Luke felt he had to give up and remove himself from the situation. If in TLJ he's just there for training or whatever, it goes against what we were told in TFA.
Saw it once and that was it. Think I saw Awakens at least twice though. Wasn't a bad movie at all, actually rather enjoyed it. Finn and Rose's journey together was just a waste and pointless.
Truthfully I hope the void left in this movie's wake from fans leaving the franchise is filled with new ones. I said it before but this movie is one of the best examples of 'Do you see a blue or gold dress?' debates ever. However you felt after initially seeing this movie is most likely how you will continue to feel and no amount of debate is going to convince either side to see their gold or blue.
How exactly did that make a great companion piece to this thread? "Do you think Disney put the emotional equivalent of a 2-year-old at the helm?". I mean, come on.
I've never really weighed in on any discussions about TLJ, just because anything involving it is usually so vitriolic. but I'll jump in for once.
I didn't enjoy the movie. I don't hate it, but I have no desire to watch it again. There were some cool moments and visuals, but for me the things I don't like outweigh the good.
However, over time I've come to think that a lot of it's issues stem more from TFA. A lot of the state of the universe is poorly explained, and too similar to the old movies. IDK, I'm not a filmmaker, so I don't know how I'd fix it.
I don't think I really care that much for Star Wars these days anyway. It hasn't been what I liked in a long time. There's nothing really wrong with that, and I'm glad others are enjoying it, but it's just not for me anymore.
I didn't enjoy the movie. I don't hate it, but I have no desire to watch it again. There were some cool moments and visuals, but for me the things I don't like outweigh the good.
However, over time I've come to think that a lot of it's issues stem more from TFA. A lot of the state of the universe is poorly explained, and too similar to the old movies. IDK, I'm not a filmmaker, so I don't know how I'd fix it.
I don't think I really care that much for Star Wars these days anyway. It hasn't been what I liked in a long time. There's nothing really wrong with that, and I'm glad others are enjoying it, but it's just not for me anymore.
In TLJ's case it would be taking plot points and cliff-hangers from previous SW movies and dismissing them quickly and without consequence. Granted we haven't gotten the third movie so maybe this stuff can all change.
Shit like Luke comically throwing the lightsaber over his shoulder
Rey and Kylo not doing something unique and instead reverting to series staple light side vs dark side rebels vs empire
Snoke just dead like a nameless goon
Rey's lineage not being a factor in her connection to the force
Some of those I'm okay with the outcome, mainly the last two, but I think they could have handled the execution much better.
Yep, and add to that:
Leia's dead............oop, fooled you, it's Leia Poppins time! Poor Palpatine & Mace Windu & Plo Koon... should've studied their Leia Poppins Jedi powers
Admiral Ackbar's dead....................wait, who?
Luke's a grumpy old man who has shunned the Force and turns his back on the galaxy, family & friends included, because that's just the only way that his character arc could go (or that's what the audience would least expect).....hah, that will show them for believing in heroes!
Hyperspace a capital ship through a Star destroyer............wow, how cool would that be, guys? The audience will never expect that!
Let's say we're not an ESB ripoff and put the new iteration on Imperial Walkers battle at the END of the movie......that will surely surprise and delight the fans!
Let's finally bring Luke back from grumpy old man mode, and then casually kill him off with no fanfare or explanation other than he was exhausted or gave up...........the audience will never expect that...........maximum tears guaranteed......I'm such an amazing storyteller!
Honestly I felt many of the moments that were supposed to "subvert expectations" were written not to serve the narrative but instead Rian Johnson's own ego.
I mean things like the lightsaber being tossed away. I actually don't mind the object not being of much consequence, but the particular manner of that scene immediately put a lot of the audience on a hostile footing. It came across as RJ thinking he was being really clever but saying "fuck the previous film, I'm doing my own thing in this one".
Some people like that kind of thing, I guess. But it's easy to see why a lot of people didn't enjoy watching a film full of literal "gotcha" moments.
I mean things like the lightsaber being tossed away. I actually don't mind the object not being of much consequence, but the particular manner of that scene immediately put a lot of the audience on a hostile footing. It came across as RJ thinking he was being really clever but saying "fuck the previous film, I'm doing my own thing in this one".
Some people like that kind of thing, I guess. But it's easy to see why a lot of people didn't enjoy watching a film full of literal "gotcha" moments.
I think that moment played well to people who didn't have a great taste in their mouth at the way TFA ended.
I found TFA ending kind of pompous and literal "it's the MacGuffin you were looking for: Luke fucking Skywalker. Well, here he is standing on a cliff, looking majestic. Isn't it just so amazing?? See you in 2 years.... (nailed it!)"
Rian's intro to Luke diffused that all pretention immediately. It won me over because TFA's ending made me cringe a bit. And here's Rian, like: "yeah, it was a bit cheesy, wasn't it? Here's a pie in your face."
But I think if that TFA ending worked for you on face value, (as it probably did for the majority of the audience, really) then it felt like a "fuck you". I'm not surprised a lot of people were thrown off if they bought into TFA's sense of pomp and majesty.
Wow, that's insanely disrespectful and insulting to a man who put his all into making a fantastic Star Wars movie.
Consider where Luke's character was, what he last did with a Lightsaber, and that he had turned completely away from that life. Then Rey, this random person turns up with Anakin's lightsaber. The one he killed children with, the one he turned on his master, the symbol of both his father's failure and the Jedi's failure, not to mention his own arguably.
People too often associate Jedi with lightsabers when the best Jedi were at their best when they turned away from that. Obi-Wan? Wins by lowering his lightsaber, letting Vader kill him. Yoda? Trains Luke in the spiritual side of the force. Luke himself? His real wins were when he turned his father back after he stopped using his Lightsaber, and when he saved the Resistance without a single swing of the Lightsaber, but also inspired the galaxy at the cost of his life.
Where Luke was as a character then, that reaction fit to a tee. Bitter fan reaction doesn't change that. It wasn't just for some "Subvert expectations" obsession people think he had, it just happened to subvert expectations while fitting the story and character at the time.
If they were going to stick to the "toss aside" approach, then they missed the perfect opportunity for Luke to toss it away dramatically and deliberately to the side, in the exact same motion that he did on Death Star II in ROTJ after Palpatine goads him to strike his father down and take his place as apprentice.
But just as JJ Abrams forgot that Chewie actually would want to hug Leia and not Rey after Han Solo's death, and as Rian forgot that anyone cared about Admiral Ackbar's death, Rian of course failed to see how powerful doing the lightsaber tossing scene this way would actually make sense and resonate with long-time fans.
The way the music built up and the way that Luke actually tossed the lightsaber aside had a slapstick/Marvel snark humorous tone to it, and the audience uncomfortably laughed at the scene. It was a jerky throw, not a deliberate, serious through like Luke did in ROTJ and it clearly wasn't meant to echo that. It was meant as a gag and to "subvert expectations".
If you want to talk about disrespect, that is disrespectful right there. Disrespectful to the lore, disrespectful to the character, and disrespectful to the fanbase.
No, disrespect is insulting a creator by assuming they had malicious intent because you don't like a creative choice.
As a fan of this franchise since I was a child, from the moment I got my first VHS of the movies...I don't feel disrespected in the least. I don't feel the lore was disrespected. I especially don't feel Luke was disrespected.
If anything, I feel like they captured Luke fantastically, both his flaws and his strengths, and had a solid character arc that brought him to a point where I saw Luke off with a smile.
Just because YOU feel the series was disrespected doesn't mean that's actually what happened.
You see, if he dramatically threw it to the side I wouldn't personally be offended. But tossing it over his shoulder with a little jerk? I can't believe Rian Johnson would maliciously disrespect the entire Star Wars fan base like this. I can't ever look at Star Wars the same way again.
This is getting utterly ridiculous.
This is getting utterly ridiculous.
Imagine Luke having just cut off Vader's hand, Palpatine looming over them, urging Luke to kill his father and join him. Here are two ways the scene can go:
1) Luke stands up, stares coldly at Palpatine and deliberately and smoothly cast aside his lightsaber in defiance, indicating that he is a true Jedi, like his father before him.
2) Luke stands up, stares plainly at Palpatine and then quickly and jerkily flips the lightsaber over his shoulder, the music presents a "gotcha" moment cue, and Luke proceeds to walk away, leaving the emperor dumbfounded.
Here's TLJ equivalent:
1) Luke stands up, stares coldly at Rey and deliberately and smoothly cast aside his lightsaber in defiance, indicating that he is beyond such crude weapons, and walks past Rey, leading her to wonder just how wise and powerful Luke could be. The audience is clearly reminded of the very last time we saw Luke with a lightsaber, in ROTJ, and get major feels and intrigue.
2) Luke stands up, stares plainly at Rey and then quickly and jerkily flips the lightsaber over his shoulder, the music presents a "gotcha" moment cue, cuing the audience to laugh in a Marvel humor sort of way, and Luke proceeds to walk away with no explanation, leaving Rey dumbfounded.
1) Luke stands up, stares coldly at Palpatine and deliberately and smoothly cast aside his lightsaber in defiance, indicating that he is a true Jedi, like his father before him.
2) Luke stands up, stares plainly at Palpatine and then quickly and jerkily flips the lightsaber over his shoulder, the music presents a "gotcha" moment cue, and Luke proceeds to walk away, leaving the emperor dumbfounded.
Here's TLJ equivalent:
1) Luke stands up, stares coldly at Rey and deliberately and smoothly cast aside his lightsaber in defiance, indicating that he is beyond such crude weapons, and walks past Rey, leading her to wonder just how wise and powerful Luke could be. The audience is clearly reminded of the very last time we saw Luke with a lightsaber, in ROTJ, and get major feels and intrigue.
2) Luke stands up, stares plainly at Rey and then quickly and jerkily flips the lightsaber over his shoulder, the music presents a "gotcha" moment cue, cuing the audience to laugh in a Marvel humor sort of way, and Luke proceeds to walk away with no explanation, leaving Rey dumbfounded.
The amount of time I spend railing against how much I hate my mainstream entertainment being "safe", I suppose it's karma that when I get a movie that isn't safe, I have to hear for a year about how much people felt betrayed by movie choices that weren't "safe".
End of the day, some people want Star Wars comfort food. A savoury meatloaf (.....TFA.....). I'm always hoping someone puts ghost peppers in my Star Wars. I wanted even more gotcha/WTF/"that's not supposed to happen" than even TLJ gave me.
End of the day, some people want Star Wars comfort food. A savoury meatloaf (.....TFA.....). I'm always hoping someone puts ghost peppers in my Star Wars. I wanted even more gotcha/WTF/"that's not supposed to happen" than even TLJ gave me.
Ah, I see we are at the part of the discussion where fans pretend they are better writers than actual professionals.
You do realize Luke was in an entirely different place by the start of The Last Jedi than he was at the end of Return of the Jedi, right? Luke may have had his moment of rage, but he had a chance to turn this around. He still had an optimistic world view and things were changing in the universe for the better.
It had been years since Luke's failure with Ben. The loss of his students, the loss of his nephew, the realization that everything in life he spent decades working for...gone in one moment of weakness. He left everything a mostly broken man ready to live out his days on a small island in the middle of nowhere. To the Luke of that moment, being given a reminder of his failures, the failures of his family, the failures of his order before him? That world was behind him, he saw no value in it at that moment.
Context is key here.
the bolded part in particular is why given all other characterization of Luke in this movie I have trouble with believing this would be a good storytelling choice
it would contradict all other aspects of his characterization at that point in the movie
even Luke had no belief in himself as powerful and wise
Not really. Unless the definition of "disrespect" changed. Like, I understand not liking the film but there is nothing specifically disrespectful about that. Like even suggesting that it's disrespectful is basically admitting you feel the movie was a slight against your own ego which says more about you than the movie.
So in the same way that R2D2 conveniently wakes up at the end of TFA to fill in a map to find Luke, Luke just happens to spend a 5-10 years away from everyone, cutting himself off from the Force, and yet there's no Yoda or Ben Kenobi or anyone that visits and mentors him to help turn him around? Conveniently, it has to wait until TLJ?
Luke sure gave up everything after getting his hand chopped off, told that his father was the galaxy's mass murderer, and having his friend kidnapped. He sure messed up going to Cloud City, and that sure threw him into a downward spiral.
Luke's character arc painted in TLJ was no the be-all and -end all of paths that his character could have taken. Nor is it the most interesting. Nor is it the most broadly satisfying. Nor is it even the most sensible. Everyone who defends this choice seems to anoint Rian Johnson as some untouchable god who should be free of criticism and showered with praise.
JJ and Rian both fucked up with their choices --- the proof is in the almost 50/50 split of this poll. Better choices would have yielded significantly less split polls, and very interesting, satisfying choices could have been made to yield such results. Admit it and accept it, even if you love the choices made as they stand.
...The bolded part in this sentence is literally due to the non-bolded part...
One could fairly argue Luke needed that time away, for that wound to not be so fresh, and for the one to help start the healing to not be an old face, but a new one. Someone who can give Luke a chance to see it's not too late for the Jedi. A ghost wouldn't help with that. Yoda came when Luke both needed him and was ready to listen.
Once again, the Luke we see at the start of The Last Jedi is not where Luke was at the end of Return of the Jedi. Characters change over time, as different events happen, and don't always react the same at different points of their life with different scenarios.
Rian Johnson is not some criticism free god of cinema. He's a human being who just happened to make a good movie. The only one who is throwing out insane hyperbole is you here.
We'll never know if this was the best decision/direction to make because we just have this film, but it works I find. You don't, and that's okay, but mixed reception among the audience doesn't mean it was bad.
It's likely if someone made a movie where Luke came back and kicked the First Order's ass, destroyed all those walkers with one hand, dragged a Star Destroyer down into the planet, then fought Kylo and all of his former students to a victory...a metric ton of people would have loved it, even if it was just meaningless fluff and action pieces. That wouldn't make a better movie, but it would sate a lot of people's desires, maybe even be more popular. But popularity does not equate quality.