Memento

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
8,129
REALLY curious about how effective all their efforts will be in the final experience.

I am especially curious about the trauma exploration in regards to Ellie's persona and eventual character development.

I am happy I could avoid spoilers (at least up until now, who knows the day of tomorrow...)
 
OP
OP
Crossing Eden

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,765
I'm still whatever about the clip during Paris Games Week. I wasn't bothered by it, but I REALLY wanna know who was in a meeting and went "Oh man, this clip is so fucking good to sell more copies of the game".
I think they took the e3 demo where Joel shooting a dude who was begging for his life in the face was meant with thunderous applause and wanted to give something to the audience that clearly spelled out their intent. And it seemed to have worked since it spawned a metric fuckton of articles about video game violence in general.
 

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,363
Good post OP.
Terrible post Plum.

what

If you're gonna call my post 'terrible' then at least quote me lol

Academically speaking, a game that deals with violence and how we engage with it is extremely interesting especially in regards to questions about morality and player agency. I made a thread a few months ago, about how I've grown increasingly alienated by games with gratuitous violence, specifically gun violence, as a way to engage the player without requiring them reflect on their actions. I find myself being repulsed by this especially when the game in question attempts to approximate real-life as closely as possible (where it is convenient) or even explicitly references real-life events. TLOU2, at least if we take the developers by their word, seems to address some of my concerns. But it also makes for something I find very off-putting on a personal level.

Whilst I think it's perfectly fine to feel alienated by gaming's current levels of violence, I think it's misguided to say that gaming should be asking players to 'reflect on their actions'. Most people are able to seperate fiction from reality, so when other a seperate party tries to imply something about people's reality through the fiction they consume it's, to me, baselessly judgemental. In the end there's really not much difference between "Violent video-games will make you violent," and "Violent video-games say something about the person playing violent video-games." Both of them are moralistic fallacies based in very little evidence and, honestly, a misreading of why the vast majority of people play games.
 

shaneo632

Weekend Planner
Member
Oct 29, 2017
29,158
Wrexham, Wales
It feels like the game isn't being flippant about the consequences of violence and what we've seen so far doesn't seem to be markedly worse than anything I've seen in other media - the interactive aspect doesn't really make it any queasier for me. I always have that "it's a game" disconnect in my brain that never really turns off.

I'd rather ND take this approach than just make generic zombie schlock with Kool Aid blood squiring around; there's enough of that on the market.

I'm quite looking forward to an "ugly" game to be honest. I find a lot of video games over-sentimental so it'll be interesting to see a AAA game so invested in nastiness and hateful feelings.
 

More_Badass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,681
We've had movies tackle this kind of violence and portrayal of violence for years (Blue Ruin and A Touch of Sin come to mind) so games attempting to explore those themes through interactivity and gameplay is a long time coming.
 

BKLorenzo

Banned
Mar 17, 2020
181
I just hope Ellie will find happiness and serenity sometime in the future.
 
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NullPointer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,228
Mars
The violence is probably why I'll skip this -- have no personal interest in interacting with realistic suffering and gore. Not singling this game out either -- its probably just one of the first to pass that just-realistic-enough threshold for me to want to spend dozens of hours in.
 

Betty

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,604
I'm looking forward to reacting like this during the game when I kill the assholes hunting me and see all that near next gen quality violence.

aba529f7babca2caca3114a639d2aaa1.gif


But hey if the game makes me feel bad at some point or question myself too, that would also be awesome.

I'm most looking forward to seeing the decayed world reclaimed by nature though, it's one of my most anticipated aspects.
 

Iwao

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,936
That and I don't trust them to justify the violence within the story or gameplay either. Story because, well, Naughty Dog, and Niel Druckmann specifically, have never been shown to have the writing chops to do so. Sure they can make some amazing characters and some amazing character development, but in terms of thematic relevance to genuine issues in their writing they are sorely lacking. I personally feel that violence such as this needs to have something to say that can't be said by a story that doesn't include it, and if all this game is saying is some generalised 'hatred' as the trailers and interviews implie, then I think it's going to fail at that. It's telling that most of the 'justiifcations' I've heard so far for the violence come from "that's just the word these people live in!" as if the world is a real place instead of, you know, a fantasy video game world.

It's an assumption that Neil hasn't taken anything on board about his writing or hired a co-writer specifically from a field outside of video games (Halley Gross) to help with his blind spots, and also an assumption that Ellie's motivations are one-dimensional to back up what you think of the story so far, when that would be the least interesting set up for the plot and is why it's very unlikely.

At the end of the day this game is going to be played by at least 10 million people, it's not some small French New Extremity film like 'Martrys', it's a mass-market product meant to attract the widest crowd possible. As such, I honestly feel it needs to be more responsible with what it shows because the potential for major mental health issues stemming from people playing this game is quite considerable. Right now I really don't think Naughty Dog is being that responsible, especially since it's shying away from showing any of this ultra-violence in the latest, and more mass-market, trailers.
I want this game to fuck me up, but I understand what you're saying about having a responsibility to more casual players who might not be going in with such grave expectations. I wonder if reviewers will hold it to account if it's too much for them to stomach. That's possibly a good way to let a wider swath of people know if it's for them or not.
 

GattsuSama

Member
Mar 12, 2020
1,761
I wonder how all of this plays into repetitiveness of encounters. At the end of the game it is a video game and there are some repetitive task you have to do.

Their Uncharted games are always called out for how many people Drake kill.

I wonder also if it affects re-playability. Like every human enemy NPC is unique and only the infected are subject to random violence.
 

s y

Member
Nov 8, 2017
10,447
If Punished Ellie doesn't grow a demon horn, is the game really about the cycle of violence?
 

Deleted member 8593

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
27,176
Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sorry if I am) but isn't that what this is saying:

"about how I've grown increasingly alienated by games with gratuitous violence, specifically gun violence, as a way to engage the player without requiring them reflect on their actions"

?

No, this is simply about me personally not enjoying certain games anymore because they deal with a subject matter in a way that is, at least thematically, uninteresting to me. As I wrote in the thread I linked to, I am still going to enjoy Doom Eternal (once I get around to it...) but most likely wouldn't play it if it had the same setting as Call of Duty. Once the backdrop is too close to reality (and this is entirely based on feeling), I need it the game to engage me on a level that goes beyond the mechanical act of aiming and shooting. I obviously still see the appeal of games that don't since I played them en masse for the past two decades and there's nothing wrong with them. They just aren't for me but neither are flight simulators.
 

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,363
We've had movies tackle this kind of violence and portrayal of violence for years (Blue Ruin and A Touch of Sin come to mind) so games attempting to explore those themes through interactivity and gameplay is a long time coming.

I think trying to compare this to small independent films is a bit misguided because, in the end, the contexts and even the content of both are going to be so incredibly different.

The Last of Us: Part 2 is going to be a 20+ hour game that will more-than-likely be experienced by at least 10 million people.
Blue Ruin (great film btw) is a 90 minute film that made less than $1m in the box office.

They're just incomparable to me.

It's an assumption that Neil hasn't taken anything on board about his writing or hired a co-writer specifically from a field outside of video games (Halley Gross), and also an assumption that Ellie's motivations are one-dimensional to back up what you think of the story so far, when that would be the least interesting set ups for her plot and is why it's very unlikely.

I don't know, because personally I cannot see how this game creates actual thematic relevance from the world it's set up even if Ellie's motivations are the most in-depth ones possible. Zombies can be allegorical to an extent but The Last of Us' world is so completely far-removed from our own in practically every sense that to suggest that it could say something meaningful about the world as it is right now is a bit far-fetched.

I'm always open to my expectations being proven wrong, however, and I've literally alreay pre-ordered the game so it's not like I won't give it a fair shot.

I want this game to fuck me up, but I understand what you're saying about having a responsibility to more casual players who might not be going in with such grave expectations. I wonder if reviewers will hold it to account if it's too much for them to stomach.

Personally I don't think so. Game reviewers tend to be hounded to hell and back if they dare step into 'less-than-objective' territory with their reviews so iI highly doubt that many of them will feel up to incurring the wrath of gamers (on both sides of the political divide, as well) over this.

If Punished Ellie doesn't grow a demon horn, is the game really about the cycle of violence?

"Joel. I'm already The Last of Us."
 

John Dunbar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,229
Trust and believe that it's way more ingrained into the game than what can be described as "marketing schtick."
-tone
-animation
-art direction
-the specifics of the violence
-the AI system
etc.

It's all made with the thematics in mind. And yes, some people will miss the point, but that's true with any game really. Especially in our plot focused "everything explained" culture where character analysis gets less attention than lore and plot beats.

how does one miss the point when killing people is made fun? and trying to pull some "ah, but killing all those people is BAD!" is some lame shit that rings hollow.
 

Iwao

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,936
I wonder how all of this plays into repetitiveness of encounters. At the end of the game it is a video game and there are some repetitive task you have to do.

Their Uncharted games are always called out for how many people Drake kill.

I wonder also if it affects re-playability. Like every human enemy NPC is unique and only the infected are subject to random violence.
I'm not sure what makes you think only infected behave or interact randomly or sophisticated.
NPCs are smarter than ever. I think it would be very difficult to replicate anything in this sandboxes.
 

More_Badass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,681
I think trying to compare this to small independent films is a bit misguided because, in the end, the contexts and even the content of both are going to be so incredibly different.

The Last of Us: Part 2 is going to be a 20+ hour game that will more-than-likely be experienced by at least 10 million people.
Blue Ruin (great film btw) is a 90 minute film that made less than $1m in the box office.

They're just incomparable to me.
The thematic intent is still the same regardless, in how TLOU seems to be approaching violence and its effects/consequence
 

Razor Mom

Member
Jan 2, 2018
2,551
United Kingdom
how does one miss the point when killing people is made fun? and trying to pull some "ah, but killing all those people is BAD!" is some lame shit that rings hollow.
The only way I can see it working thematically is if the character you're playing as is also finding the killing fun (providing the killing actually is fun, mechanically), and is therefore some kind of psychopath. This idea of killing being harrowing to the main character but entertaining to the player definitely feels like it would come across as lame.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,319
To me it's always been weird to see a game try to condemn violence, when the only way to effectively progress (or even progress at all) is through violence. So it then puts you in this seat, telling you what you need to do, and then telling you it's bad to do those actions. There's nothing interesting being explored there.
 

Wozman23

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,031
Pico Rivera, CA
I'm trying to stay away from as much TLoU2 info as possible, which includes this post, but I just wanted to say the original game was really the first and only game where violence didn't feel gratuitous to me. It was gruesome as hell, but it felt like it was there for the sake of the story and fleshing out just how dire the world was. It was a character instead of a feature.
 

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,363
No, this is simply about me personally not enjoying certain games anymore because they deal with a subject matter in a way that is, at least thematically, uninteresting to me. As I wrote in the thread I linked to, I am still going to enjoy Doom Eternal (once I get around to it...) but most likely wouldn't play it if it had the same setting as Call of Duty. Once the backdrop is too close to reality (and this is entirely based on feeling), I need it the game to engage me on a level that goes beyond the mechanical act of aiming and shooting. I obviously still see the appeal of games that don't since I played them en masse for the past two decades and there's nothing wrong with them. They just aren't for me but neither are flight simulators.

Ah, I see what you mean and, to an extent, I agree. Games that are just about shooting shit have gotten boring to me so they either have to provide exceptional 'thrills' (DOOM Eternal) or some degree of interesting narrative.

Where I think we differ is in how we think Naughty Dog is going to do with this game because, at the end of the day, The Last of Us: Part 2 is a 'triple-A' game about a fantastical zombie apocalypse. That's a massive hurdle to jump over if the game is to make its story thematically relevant to the human condition of today. I feel that doing so is the only way for it to 'justify' its level of violence and general direction because themes like "revenge" and "the cycle of violence," can be explored in stories that have nowhere near the level of violence that TLoU:P2 has.

The thematic intent is still the same regardless, in how TLOU seems to be approaching violence and its effects/consequence

Perhaps, but to me media shouldn't just be viewed in a vacuum lie that.

That and "thematic intent," does not say anything about the success of said thematic intent, it just says that it's there.
 
OP
OP
Crossing Eden

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,765
am i having fun while playing as ellie?
It's the last of us so it will technically feel good to play. That's not a critique of the game and it's themes though. It would be like arguing that playing the evil path in undertale isn't an effective experience because it's fun to level up and play it like a traditional game. "But I'm having fun" isn't a gotcha.
 
Jul 3, 2019
963
The game makes you kill but then scolds you for killing with out giving you any other way of interacting with the game.
Kind mucks up the intent and messaging. This game is fun to play but it's all based around the suffering and pain that this violence inflicts on it's characters.
Just seems like a tonal mess.
 

Razor Mom

Member
Jan 2, 2018
2,551
United Kingdom
It's the last of us so it will technically feel good to play. That's not a critique of the game and it's themes though. It would be like arguing that playing the evil path in undertale isn't an effective experience because it's fun to level up and play it like a traditional game.
What the game is portraying thematically and what the game is attempting to do mechanically feel at odds with each other.
 

endzville

Self-requested ban
Banned
Apr 21, 2020
237
Scotland
If they nail it then this game could lead to some really interesting discussions about how violence in video games.

Apart from the greater emphasis on realism, I don't really expect it to lead to any new conversations or to push the medium forward in some way to be honest. Enemies having unique names that they use when communicating with each other or when mourning someone's death is certainly new (as far as I'm aware anyway) but games have tried to make you aware of the violence you're inflicting in various ways before, to varying levels of success, and I don't think this is much different from any of that. Rather, it's approaching the same idea from another angle - that of graphic, believable-looking violence upon realistically modelled and animated characters who act like humans, etc. - and that's fine; but I don't think it's necessarily going to lead to anything new in terms of how we look at violence in the medium. Like, it fits the context of the game and its theme more than other methods of making the player confront their actions would and is a logical step forward from the previous game's level of violence but I don't think it's inherently better or revolutionary on account of the way it aims to be as realistic as possible.

The conversation, I expect, will just be a continuation of that which has already taken place and be centred around the question of "is this going too far?" in regards to the research apparently involved (and its possible consequences upon their staff) but that question and the resulting discussions wouldn't really be anything new either - it'll just be the same ones but with a fresh coat of paint. I'm not saying I don't respect what Naughty Dog's doing or think they're wasting their time - far from it: I'm all for it and think it fits the artistic direction/vision of the game. But I also don't think it's a given that it's going to be some huge step forward for how video games portray violence in some way either or make players question what they're doing in a way they've never done before.

Personally speaking, I think games do a better job at this when they take an abstract approach to having the player face what they've done; force them to do something terrible to a person(s) they care about or have some sort of connection with; or have them explore their character's mind in some way, to see and feel the toll being taken on them. Ultimately games such as this are driven by the violence the player inflicts upon others and they contextualise this by having the enemies be the first to attack or paint them for the most part as irredeemable monsters in order to justify and continue the player's actions over the many hours of play. They don't usually directly address any of this, however, and if they do then only in cutscenes or through some other form of exposition. How TLoU Part 2 handles this, exactly, is what will be far more interesting in my opinion.

Like, I'm aware of the spoilers, having posted in the thread about them a few times, and so I know it follows through on some of what happened in the first game in a way that makes sense but it's how it contextualises the rest of the experience that will matter a lot more. All the attention in the world poured into making the game as realistic looking as possible and giving every enemy a name and recording lines for those names being cried out in anguish by other NPC's with names, etc. - none of that will make a difference if the game follows the same trodden pattern as many other first and third person shooters.

I guess my "concern" in this area arises with the cult-like group seen in some trailers and gameplay footage, who appear like they'll be recurring antagonists somehow. Sure, they love their dogs and each other and Ellie certainly dispatches them with a great degree of violence - but she also witnesses one of them gutting one of their own and in another trailer an Asian character, also apparently one of theirs, has her arms smashed with a hammer as they attempt to hang someone else. Not exactly innocent people making difficult decisions to survive is my point, which makes you wonder: how will the game deal with other groups? That's what I'm more interested in seeing.

Anyway, others have raised different points and equally interesting questions related to this, but that's my take. I don't expect it to be all that amazing or better than other approaches at doing the same thing but it would be nice to be surprised, I guess.
 

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,363
It's the last of us so it will technically feel good to play. That's not a critique of the game and it's themes though.

Why?

The game makes you kill but then scolds you for killing with out giving you any other way of interacting with the game.
Kind mucks up the intent and messaging. This game is fun to play but it's all based around the suffering and pain that this violence inflicts on it's characters.
Just seems like a tonal mess.

The game does technically give you a 'ghost' option, I think. At least that's what interviews have said, though I don't really trust them fully seeing as the original had a few 'forced' or 'heavily encouraged' murder sections.

However like with most other stealth games going completely pacifist is going to be something reserved for repeat playthroughs and/or very good players. The likelihood that even 10% of the 10+ million people who play this game won't murder at least a few people in-game is very, verylow.
 

More_Badass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,681
Ah, I see what you mean and, to an extent, I agree. Games that are just about shooting shit have gotten boring to me so they either have to provide exceptional 'thrills' (DOOM Eternal) or some degree of interesting narrative.

Where I think we differ is in how we think Naughty Dog is going to do with this game because, at the end of the day, The Last of Us: Part 2 is a 'triple-A' game about a fantastical zombie apocalypse. That's a massive hurdle to jump over if the game is to make its story thematically relevant to the human condition of today. I feel that doing so is the only way for it to 'justify' its level of violence and general direction because themes like "revenge" and "the cycle of violence," can be explored in stories that have nowhere near the level of violence that TLoU:P2 has.



Perhaps, but to me media shouldn't just be viewed in a vacuum lie that.

That and "thematic intent," does not say anything about the success of said thematic intent, it just says that it's there.
Not sure what you're getting to with that. I agree, but don't see how you got from my post that I'm viewing media in a vacuum

And of course, it remains to be seen if their themes can mesh with the repetitive nature of games. Their conversation about violence is going to suffer if we're fighting and killing dozens of enemies countless times
 
OP
OP
Crossing Eden

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,765
What the game is portraying thematically and what the game is attempting to do mechanically feel at odds with each other.
Your suggestion seems to be to make the game terrible to play, aka, the thing people thought that the spec ops the line devs did. That's not really a solution. And no one said that you have to kill every enemy you see in the game. You can specifically choose to never kill a dog as an example. "But I the viewer am having fun" isn't' a critique of this sort of media. Some people find watching Requiem For A Dream to be just as entertaining and simple an experience as watching a marvel film. Reactions tend to say more about the person than the media itself. This isn't like call of duty where say, we get the shock value bombing level in MW3.

Apart from the greater emphasis on realism, I don't really expect it to lead to any new conversations or to push the medium forward in some way to be honest. Enemies having unique names that they use when communicating with each other or when mourning someone's death is certainly new (as far as I'm aware anyway) but games have tried to make you aware of the violence you're inflicting in various ways before, to varying levels of success, and I don't think this is much different from any of that. Rather, it's approaching the same idea from another angle - that of graphic, believable-looking violence upon realistically modelled and animated characters who act like humans, etc. - and that's fine; but I don't think it's necessarily going to lead to anything new in terms of how we look at violence in the medium. Like, it fits the context of the game and its theme more than other methods of making the player confront their actions would and is a logical step forward from the previous game's level of violence but I don't think it's inherently better or revolutionary on account of the way it aims to be as realistic as possible.

The conversation, I expect, will just be a continuation of that which has already taken place and be centred around the question of "is this going too far?" in regards to the research apparently involved (and its possible consequences upon their staff) but that question and the resulting discussions wouldn't really be anything new either - it'll just be the same ones but with a fresh coat of paint. I'm not saying I don't respect what Naughty Dog's doing or think they're wasting their time - far from it: I'm all for it and think it fits the artistic direction/vision of the game. But I also don't think it's a given that it's going to be some huge step forward for how video games portray violence in some way either or make players question what they're doing in a way they've never done before.
You'll notice that I didn't describe it as a step forward but rather something that will breed more discussions. Adding to an ongoing conversation is the point.
 
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Deleted member 4413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,238
For the first time, I am actually concerned about kids becoming desensitized to videogame violence.

I used to work at a GameStop, parents will just buy this game for their kids without a second thought.

I'm also really concerned with the reports that ND made their designers watch real life violence for inspiration to make their game feel more realistic.
 

Andrin

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 11, 2017
258
I think they took the e3 demo where Joel shooting a dude who was begging for his life in the face was meant with thunderous applause and wanted to give something to the audience that clearly spelled out their intent. And it seemed to have worked since it spawned a metric fuckton of articles about video game violence in general.

I remember feeling really uncomfortable when I watched that demo during Sony's conference. And the audience's reactions just made it worse.
It's a large part of why I've never played the original game, and why I'm unlikely to ever try. That kind of violence feels fundamentally wrong to me, and I've always had problems with media that seemed to revel in gratuitous or ugly violence, even if it was to prove a point.

With that being said, I hope that they manage to convey the story and themes they're exploring in part 2 in the way they aspire to, and that it can resonate and spark some reflection and conversation among its audience. Stories about hatred and the cycle of violence are worth exploring, and games can tackle them in a way different from any other medium.
 

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,631
I feel like this kind of thing is incredibly hypocritical. They want to have their cake and eat it too - talk about how violence is bad while at the same time making a game that's full of extreme violence. Like if you accept their thesis statement at face value, then you should find playing this game repulsive & even immoral.
 

jonamok

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,227
I think they're talking themselves into a pass from me.

I enjoyed the first one a lot, but this just feels like it will be unremittingly un-fun.

And killing doggoes is a bit of a no go for me, so other people's realistic trauma at losing a pet I killed I can definitely do without.

These dark real-world times are calling for something a bit lighter on the gaming front.
 

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,363
Not sure what you're getting to with that. I agree, but don't see how you got from my post that I'm viewing media in a vacuum

And of course, it remains to be seen if their themes can mesh with the repetitive nature of games. Their conversation about violence is going to suffer if we're fighting and killing dozens of enemies countless times

Basically I think that, if you're going to compare two pieces of media, you need to look at them contextually as well as textually. So whilst I think it's perfectly fine to compare Blue Ruin to The Last of Us: Part 2, that by itself misses out a fairly major part of the 'puzzle' to me, in that both of those pieces of media are in entirely different mediums and will be experienced by different people (in terms of both demographic and numbers).

For the first time, I am actually concerned about kids becoming desensitized to videogame violence.

I used to work at a GameStop, parents will just buy this game for their kids without a second thought.

Yeah, I'm legitimately a little worried about this and I don't really care if that makes me look like Helen Lovejoy shouting 'won't somebody please think of the children!'. i know gamers of all types love to think that their medium has literally no effect on its players but that has to come into question when a developer like Naughty Dog decides to put 'LiveLeak Gore Video' levels of violence into a game that will be played by (and watched by) tens of millions of people.

It's not like the game's advertising is really going to adequately warn us about this stuff. Sure, there was a single trailer and a gameplay demo years back, but there will likely be nothing in the vast majority of this game's mainstream marketing that will suggest things like "you are going to realistically stab multiple people in the juggular and listen as they fruitlessly gasp for air," or "you are going to murder a dog and then hear the horrified shrieks of its owner as they realise what you've done."
 
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k0decraft

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,230
Earth
I'm sure this will be a super-polished, artistically impressive, technically ambitious game with tight controls and dynamic AI and sharp writing and moving performances... and I adored the first game... But man, I just really have no desire to play this. I think we need to be shown some contrast, like warm character moments, where it's not obvious they're doomed and their joy is fleeting. As it stands, I feel like so much of what we've been shown is darkness, darkness, darkness. And darkness, without contrast, is a very numbing thing.

This is my feelings as well. I olayed TLoU in doses and olan to do it for Part 2. But I know i won't be in a joyful mood.
 

MonadL

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,898
It's not so much the violence in TLOU Part 2 so much as the malice behind it. None of the gameplay shown has actually bothered me, but there was a clip they played of a dude getting their intestines cut out that made me 'Nope' out. It reminded me of stuff like the Negan bat scene in The Walking Dead or The Mountain crushing The Viper's head and how those single clips ensured I'd never watch those shows in their entirety. Can't imagine how people who have been following those shows in their entirety felt. That level of human cruelty is just...disturbing as fuck to me on a level I can't really explain. Mortal Kombat 11 though is fucking hilarious to me though. Go figure.
 

Kingasta

Avenger
Jan 4, 2018
814
I don't believe it's anyone's place, much less Naughty Dog to make me feel bad about playing a game, I see what they're doing and I get it, looking at it from a different point of view, for them it's naturally the only way to go after the first game, with the push to realism it was just a matter of time.
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,741
It's the last of us so it will technically feel good to play. That's not a critique of the game and it's themes though. It would be like arguing that playing the evil path in undertale isn't an effective experience because it's fun to level up and play it like a traditional game. "But I'm having fun" isn't a gotcha.
Well, but there's a difference in messaging. Did the Undertale developer say you're not supposed to have fun with the bullet hell? If he did, then he's full of shit.

But "we don't use the word 'fun'" as a statement rings a little hollow when in other interviews they go on to talk about the new dodge system, the RPG-like builds, where my Ellie feels different from your Ellie, the boss fights, the tall grass system and so on.

You can call it whatever you want if you don't want to use the word "fun", but the interactivity is very clearly being built in the same way it's done in countless other games: to be enjoyable. There's no new ground being broken by changing the wording.

Undertale also isn't a game that forces you to go the violent route and then berates you for it. The violence you're enacting, for whatever reason that drives you, including fun, is 100% your fault.

EDIT: I don't mean this as criticism of the game itself, by the way, I'm glad the gameplay looks not only "as fun" as the first, but even better. I just think the way they talk about this game always sounds like they're trying to get credit for not really doing anything? If I'm supposed to separate the gameplay parts from the story parts anyway, then how exactly is that different from any other game with a depressing story?
 

Look! The Pie!

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 27, 2017
794
Yeah, this isn't for me. I played the first game, but since then I've seen someone die IRL and while the circumstances were entirely different to the deaths that are being depicted here, I have no desire to put myself in the driving seat while watching the life drain from people in such a hyper-realistic way. Don't get me wrong, I consume a ton of media that features violence and death, but it's all pretty sanitised and/or stylised in comparison. This is just too much and honestly makes me uncomfortable, except not in the way they're intending.
 
OP
OP
Crossing Eden

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,765
I remember feeling really uncomfortable when I watched that demo during Sony's conference. And the audience's reactions just made it worse.
It's a large part of why I've never played the original game, and why I'm unlikely to ever try. That kind of violence feels fundamentally wrong to me, and I've always had problems with media that seemed to revel in gratuitous or ugly violence, even if it was to prove a point.
It's interesting watching the reactions to the demo of the second game because it's definitely more muted. Like people still cheer and such but to a lesser degree compared to the first game.

It's not so much the violence in TLOU Part 2 so much as the malice behind it. None of the gameplay shown has actually bothered me, but there was a clip they played of a dude getting their intestines cut out that made me 'Nope' out. It reminded me of stuff like the Negan bat scene in The Walking Dead or The Mountain crushing The Viper's head and how those single clips ensured I'd never watch those shows in their entirety. Can't imagine how people who have been following those shows in their entirety felt.
With shows like that there's often some very very explicit anxiety that the audience feels because they don't want to see their favorite characters brutally killed. And on the other side of the coin, the small moments where the characters are happy shine quite a bit because they provide such a stark contrast to the brutality. Which tends not to be as constant as watch clips would have you believe. The majority of GoT is characters talking and interacting lol while the violence, while brutal, is short lived.
 

Neiteio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,297
It's not so much the violence in TLOU Part 2 so much as the malice behind it. None of the gameplay shown has actually bothered me, but there was a clip they played of a dude getting their intestines cut out that made me 'Nope' out. It reminded me of stuff like the Negan bat scene in The Walking Dead or The Mountain crushing The Viper's head and how those single clips ensured I'd never watch those shows in their entirety. Can't imagine how people who have been following those shows in their entirety felt. That level of human cruelty is just...disturbing as fuck to me on a level I can't really explain. Mortal Kombat 11 though is fucking hilarious to me though. Go figure.
Mortal Kombat isn't so bad because, as I understand it, the lore can bring back anyone, so suffering and death is much lighter than something like TLOU.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,874
Hopefully they nail it but there is a very real possibility they go too far.

Trying to make every enemy death in a 20+ hour game a miserable painful experience will have a detrimental affect on the game if not paced properly or there's not much else to do in the game mechanics outside of combat.

Obviously the game will not be all combat and violence, but I just hope it isn't like Uncharted 4's downtime.

'Tis a thin line they straddle.