Novel

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,933

I want something more. Something truly leftist in this country. Incremental steps are a death knell. As is giving even an inch to fascists.
I and others have issue with this and we're implied to be sexist cis white dudes. So not only are we not listened to. Many experience white washing, cis washing, assumptions on gender or a mix. And your response is grow up when I mention being annoyed with this. Hah. Alrighty then.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
I want something more. Something truly leftist in this country. Incremental steps are a death knell. As is giving even an inch to fascists.
I and others have issue with this and we're implied to be sexist cis white dudes. So not only are we not listened to. Many experience white washing, cis washing, assumptions on gender or a mix. And your response is grow up when I mention being annoyed with this. Hah. Alrighty then.
I'd love that too, not sure what your point is though.
 

Ensorcell

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,536
I want something more. Something truly leftist in this country. Incremental steps are a death knell. As is giving even an inch to fascists.
I and others have issue with this and we're implied to be sexist cis white dudes. So not only are we not listened to. Many experience white washing, cis washing, assumptions on gender or a mix. And your response is grow up when I mention being annoyed with this. Hah. Alrighty then.
There is no leftist beacon of light that is going to come down and change everything in an instant. Incremental steps are the only choice you have. Getting someone inexperienced and naive for this kind of position will NOT move things along faster.
 

Kirbivore

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,997
There is no leftist beacon of light that is going to come down and change everything in an instant. Incremental steps are the only choice you have. Getting someone inexperienced and naive for this kind of position will NOT move things along faster.

If anything it'll move things faster... in the other direction.

I mean seriously, I think people should pay attention to how current gaming trends got to were they were. Extreme moves had immediate whip lash, so instead, game companies took a slow but steady approach to not only get to where they want, but more. The thought of horse armor was absurd when it was tried, and yet despite that, we're willing to pay for skins.

The same essentially applies to Republicans. Do you think they just got here in 8 years? Because thinking that is utterly naive. It didn't happen in an instant.
 

Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,658
I want something more. Something truly leftist in this country. Incremental steps are a death knell. As is giving even an inch to fascists.
I and others have issue with this and we're implied to be sexist cis white dudes. So not only are we not listened to. Many experience white washing, cis washing, assumptions on gender or a mix. And your response is grow up when I mention being annoyed with this. Hah. Alrighty then.
No, honestly, get your head out of your ass. This kind of all or nothing revolution purity test garbage is badly hurting the left.

Incremental change is a death knell? Do you have any idea how stupid that sounds? Every single positive thing accomplished the history of this country was thanks to the slow but steady march of progress. The destruction of slavery, women's suffrage, LGBT equality...everything.

I'm sorry this country isn't left enough for you. But this is the real world. We take steps where we can take them. And if you refuse to take those steps because you want a running leap over an abyss, you're hurting more than you're helping.
 
Nov 14, 2017
2,346
Is that code for "I didn't read most of this thread on American politics and just added my take at the end"?
It's code for "even someone who doesn't follow American politics is aware of a substantial conservative position that Pelosi holds so I don't know why people are tying themselves in knots to simultaneously argue that she's actually very left-wing but also that criticising her from the left is dumb and immature". It's one thing to support or tolerate fiscal conservatism, it's another to act as though holding a contrary position is somehow aberrant. Although to be fair, my disclaimer was more about the tendency for posters to assume that they're talking to Americans; I know who Peterson and Pelosi are precisely because of their relevance to the topic, so I'm not exactly a representative sample.

Also, I appreciate truncating the actual point from my post so you can post a mindless reply whilst also implying that I didn't read the thread. Always good to see a bit of self-awareness.
 

Deleted member 3896

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,815
It's creepy seing "progressives" wet the bed about Pelosi-- somewhere a Fox News exec is going to sleep well tonight knowing they've easily twisted your world view. It's embarrassing to watch, honestly.
 

Kirbivore

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,997
It's code for "even someone who doesn't follow American politics is aware of a substantial conservative position that Pelosi holds so I don't know why people are tying themselves in knots to simultaneously argue that she's actually very left-wing but also that criticising her from the left is dumb and immature". It's one thing to support or tolerate fiscal conservatism, it's another to act as though holding a contrary position is somehow aberrant. Although to be fair, my disclaimer was more about the tendency for posters to assume that they're talking to Americans; I know who Peterson and Pelosi are precisely because of their relevance to the topic, so I'm not exactly a representative sample.

Also, I appreciate truncating the actual point from my post so you can post a mindless reply whilst also implying that I didn't read the thread. Always good to see a bit of self-awareness.

So "I didn't read most of this thread on American politics and just added my take at the end"?
 

Crayon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,580
No, honestly, get your head out of your ass. This kind of all or nothing revolution purity test garbage is badly hurting the left.

Incremental change is a death knell? Do you have any idea how stupid that sounds? Every single positive thing accomplished the history of this country was thanks to the slow but steady march of progress. The destruction of slavery, women's suffrage, LGBT equality...everything.

I'm sorry this country isn't left enough for you. But this is the real world. We take steps where we can take them. And if you refuse to take those steps because you want a running leap over an abyss, you're hurting more than you're helping.

You're hurting more than you're helping? That's terrible. It's untrue and it's terrible. Anyone voting d is on your team, whether you like it or not.
 

Vanillalite

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,709
No, honestly, get your head out of your ass. This kind of all or nothing revolution purity test garbage is badly hurting the left.

Incremental change is a death knell? Do you have any idea how stupid that sounds? Every single positive thing accomplished the history of this country was thanks to the slow but steady march of progress. The destruction of slavery, women's suffrage, LGBT equality...everything.

I'm sorry this country isn't left enough for you. But this is the real world. We take steps where we can take them. And if you refuse to take those steps because you want a running leap over an abyss, you're hurting more than you're helping.

White male with the privilege status of being a white male tells people to get their head out of their ass and be ok with incremental change.
 
Nov 14, 2017
2,346
So "I didn't read most of this thread on American politics and just added my take at the end"?
I did read the thread - which I figured one could readily gather from the fact that my posts are responses to the content of the thread and not the article in the OP - and didn't see anyone mention fiscal conservatism. Apologies if I missed it. Perhaps you'd care to highlight such a post? Or outline an actual objection to my very simple point?

EDIT: I'd also like to apologise for my posts always appearing at the end of an active discussion thread. In future, I'll PM the mods and ask them to edit them into the OP.
 
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Eidan

AVALANCHE
Avenger
Oct 30, 2017
8,630
It's creepy seing "progressives" wet the bed about Pelosi-- somewhere a Fox News exec is going to sleep well tonight knowing they've easily twisted your world view. It's embarrassing to watch, honestly.
I've seen people rationalize getting rid of Pelosi because Republicans dislike her. This coming from self-described progressives. It's utterly pathetic. You would NEVER see a Republican advocate for ditching one of their own to appease the left.
 

Deleted member 41271

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 21, 2018
2,258
Criticize Pelosi = alt-right . Are you serious right now. Nice to see more,"you must be a sexist cis white man if you criticize her"

Well, if you ally with people spouting sexist alt-right points, while spouting the same points, how else are people supposed to describe you? Nobody forced you to make these points or side with people that do. That's your choice, and you'll have to live with being described this way, because it's accurate.

I want something more.

Who, specifically, of those running is it that you want?
Because what you're arguing for right now is someone far more conservative than her. Good job undermining yourself because fox news has riled you up against your own side because woman scary.
 

Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,658
White male with the privilege status of being a white male tells people to get their head out of their ass and be ok with incremental change.
Purity nonsense only hurts minorities and LGBT. Everyone who didn't vote for Hillary because she wasn't "pure enough" is partially responsible for every injustice wrought upon every minority group by the evils of the current administration.

The country we live in neither wants nor allows for some kind of magic revolution. You either get incremental change or you get nothing. It's sad but that's what it is.

Also, the idea that anyone on the Democratic side can't do harm is insane. You're arguing that Nancy Pelosi, a Democrat, is doing harm, so I'm not sure how you're reconciling that.
 

Jombie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,392
I think we should control, you know, congress before trying to expel progressives who have actually done things.
 

KingM

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,526
White male with the privilege status of being a white male tells people to get their head out of their ass and be ok with incremental change.
Incremental change is literally how Republicans got so much shit done. They've been playing the long con for nearly 4 decades now and it works great. Slowly gaining leads in blue areas and tweaking rules and districts slowly but surely to cement power and errode the rights and ability of opponents to resist.
 

massoluk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,712
Thailand
The idea that a representative from San Francisco with near perfect voting records on progressive issues is not progressive enough is laughable
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,360
It's creepy seing "progressives" wet the bed about Pelosi-- somewhere a Fox News exec is going to sleep well tonight knowing they've easily twisted your world view. It's embarrassing to watch, honestly.
Once you get beyond the centre-left in America, a large number of people seem to devolve into delusional raving morons who can't comprehend political tactics, or reality, or anything beyond their fantastical socialist utopia fairy tales, but who are also completely willing to believe anything Fox News says about (female) Democratic leadership.

In contrast AOC has been quite reassuring; she actually seems to have good political instincts.
 

Novel

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,933
No, honestly, get your head out of your ass. This kind of all or nothing revolution purity test garbage is badly hurting the left.

Incremental change is a death knell? Do you have any idea how stupid that sounds? Every single positive thing accomplished the history of this country was thanks to the slow but steady march of progress. The destruction of slavery, women's suffrage, LGBT equality...everything.

I'm sorry this country isn't left enough for you. But this is the real world. We take steps where we can take them. And if you refuse to take those steps because you want a running leap over an abyss, you're hurting more than you're helping.

Do you have any idea how you sound when you talk down to minorities who have to suffer through the incremental bullshit because centrists are comfortable taking their sweet ass time in even acknowledging us?

Well, if you ally with people spouting sexist alt-right points, while spouting the same points, how else are people supposed to describe you? Nobody forced you to make these points or side with people that do. That's your choice, and you'll have to live with being described this way, because it's accurate.



Who, specifically, of those running is it that you want?
Because what you're arguing for right now is someone far more conservative than her. Good job undermining yourself because fox news has riled you up against your own side because woman scary.

I'm not making alt-right points nor am I arguing for someone more conservative. Like, what are you even trying to do here? Acting like there's some gotcha when I and many others keep harping on wanting something more. I'd rather there be another option en-fucking-tirely. Not this Blue Dog crap and not Pelosi either.

I haven't even said a single sexist thing. Why is it always, "you must be sexist if you have an issue with Pelosi being house speaker even if it has literally nothing to do with her gender and everything to do with her policies/desire to compromise/talk down to people who want more than what capitalism can offer"? It's so intellectually disingenuous and frankly insulting that you don't want to confront the issue so you just label leftists. What's your issue? Seriously. So many of you keep calling us sexist when many of us haven't been making a single sexist statement and instead keep bringing up our issues. On top of that, there's fucking endless white-washing, cis-washing, etc. etc. going on. I haven't felt more insulted in a while. This is a problem that's been going across numerous topics now. Basically every Pelosi thread of the past week has had endless examples of this.

"You're a leftist minority who has issue with centrist ideals and compromise, YOU MUST BE A SEXIST WHITE CIS MAN WHO BUYS INTO FOX NEWS PROPAGANDA"

Seriously. And then when I point this crap out, I'm treated like it's not happening when it is.

It's creepy seing "progressives" wet the bed about Pelosi-- somewhere a Fox News exec is going to sleep well tonight knowing they've easily twisted your world view. It's embarrassing to watch, honestly.

I didn't realize wanting progressive values, wanting to not compromise with fascists, etc. etc. etc. was now some Fox News propaganda. Jesus this constant defense force for centrists and shaming of leftists is embarrassing to watch.

Incremental change is literally how Republicans got so much shit done. They've been playing the long con for nearly 4 decades now and it works great. Slowly gaining leads in blue areas and tweaking rules and districts slowly but surely to cement power and errode the rights and ability of opponents to resist.

Thank you.
 
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massoluk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,712
Thailand
Do you have any idea how you sound when you talk down to minorities who have to suffer through the incremental bullshit because centrists are comfortable taking their sweet ass time?



I'm not making alt-right points nor am I arguing for someone more conservative.
I haven't even said a single sexist thing. Why is it always, "you must be sexist if you have an issue with Pelosi being house speaker even if it has literally nothing to do with her gender and everything to do with her policies/desire to compromise/talk down to people who want more than what capitalism can offer"? It's so intellectually disingenuous and frankly insulting that you don't want to confront the issue so you just label leftists. What's your issue? Seriously. So many of you keep calling us sexist when many of us haven't been making a single sexist statement and instead keep bringing up our issues. On top of that, there's fucking endless white-washing, cis-washing, etc. etc. going on. I haven't felt more insulted in a while.

"You're a leftist minority who has issue with centrist ideals and compromise, YOU MUST BE A SEXIST WHITE CIS MAN WHO BUYS INTO FOX NEWS PROPAGANDA"

Seriously. And then when I point this crap out, I'm treated like it's not happening when it is.



I didn't realize wanting progressive values, wanting to not compromise with fascists, etc. etc. etc. was now some Fox News propaganda. Jesus this constant defense force for centrists and shaming of leftists is embarrassing to watch.
Here's the deal, you haven't explained to anyone here why Pelosi isn't a progressive outside of some vague talking points from GOP playbooks
 

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
Here's the deal, I haven't been using GOP playbooks.
Jesus frick. This shit is so infuriating.
There is no alternative to Pelosi that is further left than her.

Deal with it.

And when has she said she'll work with Nazis? She said she wouldn't rock the boat needlessly; not sign into law SS and camps. Perspective and pragmaticism are needed when we only have one house.

If you're this mad about Pelosi I assume you want Schumer fired into the Sun?
 

Novel

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,933
There is no alternative to Pelosi that is further left than her.

Deal with it.

I'm getting flashbacks to past elections when I was told to shut up, fall in line and wait my turn for my rights to be addressed at the table.
Even when I already said numerous times I was going to vote straight D because I have literally no other option and am held hostage by Democrats until they actually do something to support my rights.
 

Novel

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,933
I can't, you haven't said anything remotely concrete or specific

I have. You just don't seem to want to read it. So, I'm done with you here. :shrug:
I'm tired of repeating myself across numerous threads and then being told I'm some sexist cis dude who gets their arguments from the alt-right when I haven't made a single sexist or alt-right statement.
 

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
I'm getting flashbacks to past elections when I was told to shut up, fall in line and wait my turn for my rights to be addressed at the table.
Even when I already said numerous times I was going to vote straight D because I have literally no other option and am held hostage by Democrats until they actually do something to support my rights.
I mean, the policy agenda she want's to puruse has the VRA being redone, she wants LGBTQ+ as protected groups and she wants a greener energy plan.

Exactly what is she not doing?
 

Deleted member 13364

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,984
Accusing people of using Fox News talking points while using Fox News level tactics like calling anyone who criticises their fave politician a sexist or racist is pretty cool!
 

Freakzilla

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
5,710
I want something more. Something truly leftist in this country. Incremental steps are a death knell. As is giving even an inch to fascists.
I and others have issue with this and we're implied to be sexist cis white dudes. So not only are we not listened to. Many experience white washing, cis washing, assumptions on gender or a mix. And your response is grow up when I mention being annoyed with this. Hah. Alrighty then.

Lmao. No shit we want more but there is no fucking way to get around slow government change. You have every right to be annoyed and should be, but the machine is sloooooow. It takes a major city months to survey, prepare, and remove a fucking tree branch you think you can quickly move the government to the left. Not a chance. Maybe one day, but not now. Face the fact that you have to always choose lesser of the evils. You either get incremental changes or you get NOTHING.
 

Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,658
Do you have any idea how you sound when you talk down to minorities who have to suffer through the incremental bullshit because centrists are comfortable taking their sweet ass time in even acknowledging us?

Really, dude? Because I talk to my minority friends, my LGBT friends, and literally every woman in my life, and they're suffering.

You're saying you're okay with that suffering if someone doesn't meet your arbitrary bullshit standards. It's okay to criticize and critique. But you're saying that an objectively progressive candidate should be removed because they're not good enough, even though they're quite progressive, and effective at their job.

I care about my friends. I guess you feel your ideals are more important than them.

Ugh.
 

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
Really, dude? Because I talk to my minority friends, my LGBT friends, and literally every woman in my life, and they're suffering.

You're saying you're okay with that suffering if someone doesn't meet your arbitrary bullshit standards. It's okay to criticize and critique. But you're saying that an objectively progressive candidate should be removed because they're not good enough, even though they're quite progressive, and effective at their job.

I care about my friends. I guess you feel your ideals are more important than them.

Ugh.
As long as they can sleep at night damn the rest.
 

Novel

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,933
I mean, the policy agenda she want's to puruse has the VRA being redone, she wants LGBTQ+ as protected groups and she wants a greener energy plan.

Exactly what is she not doing?

I'm referring to the Deal With It attitude.

As for my issues.
Again.
-Compromise. I hate it. We shouldn't give Republicans even an inch. Go full on attack.
-I want actual commitment to minorities and not lip service that I've gotten often because they desire my vote and know I have no other effective place to put in this system. Especially in the T community.
-I dislike capitalism because of a butt-ton of societal issues (greed influencing environmental issues, police state treatment of minorities based on how people have been segregated in relation to capitalistic ends, income inequality and the suffering of the poor, etc. etc. etc. ) it causes and her attitude that we have to be capitalist and that she has talked down to people who challenge that is just insulting to me.

Edit: given that I see you're taking Feep at face value, forget it. The Deal with It attitude already bothered me. Then you go and do that. I don't rest at night. Politics drives my depression up the wall because of fears for myself, my loved ones and everyone else who suffers under Republican rule. I said this in another thread and was mocked for that too. So, whatever. Make me out to be some monster when I haven't done anything of the sort. Have a good night.

Lmao. No shit we want more but there is no fucking way to get around slow government change. You have every right to be annoyed and should be, but the machine is sloooooow. It takes a major city months to survey, prepare, and remove a fucking tree branch you think you can quickly move the government to the left. Not a chance. Maybe one day, but not now. Face the fact that you have to always choose lesser of the evils. You either get incremental changes or you get NOTHING.

The lesser of two evils is a slow death knell. KingM put it succinctly. I don't want incremental change and I don't want "nothing". I want actual change. You can say "it has to be this way" all you want. I don't give a fuck. Appeasing centrists/Republicans with this slow trickle of rights doesn't do us any favors. It only hurts. Especially when some argue we've gained enough and should stop when some barely have any rights yet.

Really, dude? Because I talk to my minority friends, my LGBT friends, and literally every woman in my life, and they're suffering.

You're saying you're okay with that suffering if someone doesn't meet your arbitrary bullshit standards. It's okay to criticize and critique. But you're saying that an objectively progressive candidate should be removed because they're not good enough, even though they're quite progressive, and effective at their job.

I care about my friends. I guess you feel your ideals are more important than them.

Ugh.

Not a dude. I am a minority and I am suffering. Nor am I at all saying I "care about ideals" over your friends. I care about shit that will actually help minorities, being one myself. That's why I said the talk down thing. Because I'm tired of being talked down to by people like you who keep advocating for stuff that has harmed us. Seriously, where do you get off twisting my words to say something I never even came close to saying?
 
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Hindl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,668
You do realize the post you said thank you is criticizing you, not agreeing with you, right? You want massive change, but Republicans didn't get to the point they're at by doing massive change all at once. They went bit by bit, fighting and clawing for every piece of power, since the 1970s. And if Democrats want change, it'll have to be bit by bit, especially with how swingy this country is. The problem with people like you is that you want these big ideas without realizing that simply getting them doesn't mean they're there forever. Like let's say left wing progressives somehow magically get a majority in the house, senate, and presidency, and pass all the massive sweeping changes you want. Well, due to the natural reactionary behavior of the American voter, combined with the right wing propaganda machine, those majorities would quickly vanish, and the GOP would simply roll everything back. Look at LGBT rights. A mere 3 years ago gay marriage was finally legalized, and progress was made in trans rights. Now, the president is trying to erase trans people from existence. You can't just instantly change things in America. You need to fight bit by bit for every piece of progress you can get, and then be ready to defend it constantly lest the other side rolls it back
 

Novel

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,933
You do realize the post you said thank you is criticizing you, not agreeing with you, right? You want massive change, but Republicans didn't get to the point they're at by doing massive change all at once. They went bit by bit, fighting and clawing for every piece of power, since the 1970s. And if Democrats want change, it'll have to be bit by bit, especially with how swingy this country is. The problem with people like you is that you want these big ideas without realizing that simply getting them doesn't mean they're there forever. Like let's say left wing progressives somehow magically get a majority in the house, senate, and presidency, and pass all the massive sweeping changes you want. Well, due to the natural reactionary behavior of the American voter, combined with the right wing propaganda machine, those majorities would quickly vanish, and the GOP would simply roll everything back. Look at LGBT rights. A mere 3 years ago gay marriage was finally legalized, and progress was made in trans rights. Now, the president is trying to erase trans people from existence. You can't just instantly change things in America. You need to fight bit by bit for every piece of progress you can get, and then be ready to defend it constantly lest the other side rolls it back

I'm tired and having to deal with this isn't fucking helping. Regardless, I read it as incremental change being a bad thing because it benefits Republicans.
Which frankly is the fucking truth. All we're doing is helping them out.

The problem with your argument is that you think I'm unaware of how right-wing propaganda works in this country. You are also unaware of the damage incremental change causes.
 

Hindl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,668
I'm tired and having to deal with this isn't fucking helping. Regardless, I read it as incremental change being a bad thing because it benefits Republicans.
Which frankly is the fucking truth. All we're doing is helping them out.

The problem with your argument is that you think I'm unaware of how right-wing propaganda works in this country. You are also unaware of the damage incremental change causes.
If you aren't unaware, you're severely underestimating it. Let's assume for a second that you get all the majorities in Congress and the presidency to pass all the issues you want to pass. What do you think is gonna prevent the GOP from reversing it in 2 years when they get back into power? Give a legitimate answer to that and then people will take your stance seriously
 

phonicjoy

Banned
Jun 19, 2018
4,305
I'm referring to the Deal With It attitude.
-I dislike capitalism because of a butt-ton of societal issues (greed influencing environmental issues, police state treatment of minorities based on how people have been segregated in relation to capitalistic ends, income inequality and the suffering of the poor, etc. etc. etc. ) it causes and her attitude that we have to be capitalist and that she has talked down to people who challenge that is just insulting to me.
Capitalism is nothing but a way of describing how markets function. It is not inherently good or bad. Where the effects are bad, regulation needs to step in to correct it. I assume you don't want a top down planned economy, so there really arent any workable alternatives. There are lots of social democracies where the excesses of capitalism have been reigned in. Most so-called socialists in developed countries don't call for government planning in any industries other than the most essential and least market driven ones like health-care and utilities.
 

Zelas

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,020
-I want actual commitment to minorities and not lip service that I've gotten often because they desire my vote and know I have no other effective place to put in this system. Especially in the T community.
Sounds like you do just want lip service if you're not interested in acquiring the power required to cement change. Unless you're satisfied seeing politicians pissing in the wind, we have to make progress in moderate areas to actually change things and move beyond the commitments she's made that you're ignoring.

The "fight for my issues even if you lose your seat" mentality isnt productive unless you've padded a multi term majority that can withstand red waves. Give her that majority first if that's what you want. Otherwise show me the god king that can change the system, designed to be slow, and erase the laws on the books.
 

Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,658
Not a dude. I am a minority and I am suffering. Nor am I at all saying I "care about ideals" over your friends. I care about shit that will actually help minorities, being one myself. That's why I said the talk down thing. Because I'm tired of being talked down to by people like you who keep advocating for stuff that has harmed us. Seriously, where do you get off twisting my words to say something I never even came close to saying?
You literally said Nancy Pelosi isn't good enough despite being way, way, way to the left of the American populace and her fellow Democrats. You said a bunch of misleading slander that you have yet to really back up.

Nancy Pelosi, as part of her platform with the rest of the Democratic party, has consistently fought for the rights of women and people of color. Where have I, or Nancy Pelosi, advocated for things that will harm minorities? You need to show us the receipts, because I've kept a close eye on her actual positions and there's nothing even remotely close.

I told you to grow up because you live in a fantasy world, in which more progressive and effective candidates than Nancy Pelosi exist. You may not like incremental change, but it's responsible for every right you've ever gained. You may not see the value in that, but I, and my friends, sure as hell do.

And with that, sleeeeeep. Apologies for calling you a dude though.
 
Oct 31, 2017
12,275
People are talking past each other with really silly accusations such as, "You're siding with the alt-right!" It's happening more with people defending Pelosi, tbh, though I do think there's a really good argument for Pelosi right now (but maybe not in 2020).

There are two trains of thought for and against Pelosi and House leadership (and Dem leadership in general) that I'll try to outline. Against Pelosi:

1) Many progressives oppose Pelosi because we have her and Hoyer in power still, two people in their late 70s, with barely anybody on the bench to take over the reigns once they're finished. Democrats haven't built up the next generations (X and Millennials) for ages, and in order to be effective in the future, we need new blood with true progressive ideas. Schumer in the Senate is a great example of someone we don't need.

2) People focus too much on votes of "most liberal/most conservative" without reading into why someone voted a certain way. Ohio had a marijuana legalization measure in 2015 that I would have voted against. Why? Because it would have given one company exclusive rights to distribute it, giving them an unfair monopoly. Voting against it wouldn't make me conservative, but if you tallied my vote, all of a sudden I'm not as "progressive." You're not going to convince progressives how liberal someone is through votes because a lot of them have different ways of deciding what makes things liberal or conservative, sometimes as simple as party vote.

3) The people who want big change want to stop arguing from the center and shift the overton window. I sometimes don't think this board isn't as progressive as it thinks it is, because the progressives I know and speak to wanted Obama to argue from a more progressive position in 2009/2010 for health care. He called the public option a sliver of the total health care law, but really, he should have argued to the left of that and compromised to a public option. That should have been the goal. Arguing for Medicare-for-All and true universal health care should be the goal because, 1) it's popular, and 2) if there's compromise to be had, you compromise to the right of that, not to the right of an already compromise position. You continue to argue for the position so it eventually doesn't seem "extreme" to the public. What I'm glad Democrats ended up doing was sticking by the ACA, and now, lo and behold, it's crazy to not want to expand Medicaid and cover people with pre-existing conditions.

Now, the argument for Pelosi is a strong and simple one:

4) She understands how the House operates. And it's as simple as that, but it's true. Due to popularity of many progressive ideas, she can use her smarts from pushing cap-and-trade and the Affordable Care Act back in 09/10 and do that now and make the case for it. We don't even have to go into the fact that there aren't big AOC/Gillum/Abrams progressives challenging her right now.

I hear Pelosi wants someone to take over in the future. Good, let's actually make that a reality. Gen X and Millennials are waiting to take the reigns from the 70-somethings who have had power for ages. Have Pelosi be the speaker now to make deals with Trump, and get the young House people ready to take over since there's very little power in the House if you aren't to make change via being a committee chair. And let's not worry what Republicans say is extreme: they called opposition to the Iraq War and support for gay marriage extreme, they called the ACA extreme, and they were wrong and are now extreme.
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
I want something more. Something truly leftist in this country. Incremental steps are a death knell. As is giving even an inch to fascists.
I and others have issue with this and we're implied to be sexist cis white dudes. So not only are we not listened to. Many experience white washing, cis washing, assumptions on gender or a mix. And your response is grow up when I mention being annoyed with this. Hah. Alrighty then.
It's okay to want something more. But with a split government? You don't want some inexperienced person who doesn't know how the system works. It's gross, it's garbage, but it's what we have and we have to work with what we have unless we are actually willing to start tearing shit down - and most Americans have proven repeatedly that they aren't willing.

So we need the most progressive yet experienced leader we can get right now.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,123
Brooklyn, NY
Accusing people of using Fox News talking points while using Fox News level tactics like calling anyone who criticises their fave politician a sexist or racist is pretty cool!

Or presuming that only sexist, racist, cishet white males would criticize the Democratic Party from the left, or that people who do so don't actually care about the rights of minorities. It's an incredibly gross, cynical tactic from people who want to shut down any debate rather than engage in one.
 

LinktothePastGOAT

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,879
People are talking past each other with really silly accusations such as, "You're siding with the alt-right!" It's happening more with people defending Pelosi, tbh, though I do think there's a really good argument for Pelosi right now (but maybe not in 2020).

There are two trains of thought for and against Pelosi and House leadership (and Dem leadership in general) that I'll try to outline. Against Pelosi:

1) Many progressives oppose Pelosi because we have her and Hoyer in power still, two people in their late 70s, with barely anybody on the bench to take over the reigns once they're finished. Democrats haven't built up the next generations (X and Millennials) for ages, and in order to be effective in the future, we need new blood with true progressive ideas. Schumer in the Senate is a great example of someone we don't need.

2) People focus too much on votes of "most liberal/most conservative" without reading into why someone voted a certain way. Ohio had a marijuana legalization measure in 2015 that I would have voted against. Why? Because it would have given one company exclusive rights to distribute it, giving them an unfair monopoly. Voting against it wouldn't make me conservative, but if you tallied my vote, all of a sudden I'm not as "progressive." You're not going to convince progressives how liberal someone is through votes because a lot of them have different ways of deciding what makes things liberal or conservative, sometimes as simple as party vote.

3) The people who want big change want to stop arguing from the center and shift the overton window. I sometimes don't think this board isn't as progressive as it thinks it is, because the progressives I know and speak to wanted Obama to argue from a more progressive position in 2009/2010 for health care. He called the public option a sliver of the total health care law, but really, he should have argued to the left of that and compromised to a public option. That should have been the goal. Arguing for Medicare-for-All and true universal health care should be the goal because, 1) it's popular, and 2) if there's compromise to be had, you compromise to the right of that, not to the right of an already compromise position. You continue to argue for the position so it eventually doesn't seem "extreme" to the public. What I'm glad Democrats ended up doing was sticking by the ACA, and now, lo and behold, it's crazy to not want to expand Medicaid and cover people with pre-existing conditions.

Now, the argument for Pelosi is a strong and simple one:

4) She understands how the House operates. And it's as simple as that, but it's true. Due to popularity of many progressive ideas, she can use her smarts from pushing cap-and-trade and the Affordable Care Act back in 09/10 and do that now and make the case for it. We don't even have to go into the fact that there aren't big AOC/Gillum/Abrams progressives challenging her right now.

I hear Pelosi wants someone to take over in the future. Good, let's actually make that a reality. Gen X and Millennials are waiting to take the reigns from the 70-somethings who have had power for ages. Have Pelosi be the speaker now to make deals with Trump, and get the young House people ready to take over since there's very little power in the House if you aren't to make change via being a committee chair. And let's not worry what Republicans say is extreme: they called opposition to the Iraq War and support for gay marriage extreme, they called the ACA extreme, and they were wrong and are now extreme.

You're wrong about Obama on healthcare. It was DOA before the debate started because of Lieberman and Nelson. Those are the facts. The ACA STILL needed Republican support even without a public option. It wasn't WASNT going to happen.