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OtherWorldly

Banned
Dec 3, 2018
2,857
I agree with Obama 100% percent on this. Compromise, balance, moderation, pragmatism, realism is good. "Don't let perfect be the enemy of good" as no one is perfect. " The pendulum shift" argument never contributes to societies end goal. The fact that some take words, actions and discussion and invoke the most extreme judgment on their intent or apply the purity "your argument is in bad faith" talk on every single opposing or nuanced different point never is a positive thing for anyone in the end.
 

Doc Kelso

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,166
NYC
The "joke" by Justine Sacco was this:

"Going to Africa. Hope I don't get AIDS. Just kidding. I'm white!"

You can read about it more here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/15/magazine/how-one-stupid-tweet-ruined-justine-saccos-life.html

While her family's background didn't match up with the post at all, Sacco seemed somewhat oblivious to the impact of her words on others, still working in social media PR at places like "Hot or Not" which is all about impact and judgement of others. She was also dis-proportionally targeted by someone well-known on social media, and a few others in the article above were targeted by alt-right brigades after telling the world they had experienced something in public that made them feel uncomfortable.

People haven't quite realized yet that their words brought to social media, even coming from one voice among billions, have much more power. But not just because they have the ability to communicate publicly. It's because they have instant access to large audiences who are all but guaranteed to receive and digest their words. And with these large audiences comes the risk of being misinterpreted. Sacco may have the social luxury of being able to post a joke that she thinks only an "insane person" would take literally, but it's clear that many people who post on social media really don't "know their audience".

Think about ResetEra for a moment. Tens of thousands of people may be members, but far fewer post often enough, and many more read and have read the site. For some, Era is only what they read in posts, and the multitude of other members and potential members reading are not considered, even though they (along with you) provide the revenue to keep the site going and would possibly consider joining the conversation. How many of those people feel called out when people make metacommentary about Era and its members? Do you know for sure?

As for young people voting in the US (a comment I've seen made multiple times now in the past 12 hours or so), they and their families have experienced some 40 years of slipping economic opportunity and loss of access to benefits and services, more severely and quickly depending on where they live. They've watched their families and friends made to re-up combat tours, told they are not wanted in the country, made to live on a razor's edge between citizenship and not, and seen those who have made mistakes unfairly cast as less-than human in incarceration and stripped of the right to vote. Their schools, including defenseless 6-year-olds, have been shot up without meaningful national action or bills signed into law. They've even seen a President's own party abandon him during an election (Obama, 2014). They have evidence their lives may not have a chance to end naturally. The only news media they've known continues to fuel non-truths and normalize reprehensible behavior. The results of their taxpayer-funded educations are lack of access to further education, a life of debt to gain access to further education, or vocational and healthcare marketplaces that effectively lock them out. They have no nationally-visible champions in the political arena, in the private sector, or in the populace - just a relatively scant few concerned citizens who are earnestly trying.

As for Obama's comments, it's not a matter of Obama being wrong, it's a matter of a) glossing over the practice of targeting on social media in order to cause harm, and b) normalizing "everyone's done something stupid" when NO - many people with hard economic situations or who are targets of prejudice just trying to keep afloat day-to-day do not exhibit the behaviors of others with easy economic means or social privilege who can afford to keep doing not just stupid, but sharply harmful things.

Unfortunately his comments did both gloss over and normalize. It seems to me people still haven't learned enough, or paid attention to, women who have been targeted, stalked, and denigrated on social media (and off) - things that go way beyond simply being misinterpreted. After years and years of clear examples of this, why this isn't put at the top of these conversations is beyond me. Instead it's "would you look at these people with their 'self-serving' righteousness", which is a far easier statement to make and then go no further, and allows those who continue to brigade against women to take cover behind those comments.

Obama has a real talent for making those who orbit the still-conservative middle of the US political spectrum feel better about themselves. These comments he made are unfortunately no different in this regard. It's in part how he won the Presidency, yes, but some still think that's how a Presidential election can and should be won. And yet people want young people, with all the things they experienced, to just go along with that? They want to be shown a different way to win, a way that directly addresses their experiences that have been indelibly woven into the fabric of their nation. I hope the 2020 election will be able to show them just that, but candidates are going to have to be willing to be their champion AND communicate that effectively to them. Let's see if any candidate ends up doing just that.
Great post. A lot of people immediately conflate the idea of "call out culture" with wealthy people, rather than even beginning to imagine the effect it has on people who have almost no actual presence.

It's incredibly easy to say the wrong thing within a fandom, for instance, and be a pariah for as long as the "proof" of what you did exists. Hell, I was stalked to hell and back within a specific fandom because a person with a not insignificant presence within that community decided to make me a target. It's an extended form of bullying that you can't really escape from. And this doesn't even touch on how women and minorities get shoved around on social media for not being the perfect image of what people want them to be.

Hold people accountable but don't shove your normal person in the hole because their words were easily misinterpreted. It's just cruel.
 

OtherWorldly

Banned
Dec 3, 2018
2,857

"We don't want "purity"; we want to seize the chance to remake the world for the better." Through purity tests, you can say it's not purity test, but in practicality it's going to be a purity test on application. If you want the group which changes the world to conform to one view and root out broad based opinions which dwelves from the left to the middle, you root out as much of the Center as possible and go with the most conforming crowd and when a certain goal is reached, the next step will shed even more from left and so on and so on. That is purity by implementation.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
Yes, I'm shocked Trump got booed by fans living in D.C./Northern VA /Maryland. /s. 80 miles south towards the suburbs of Richmond, and the guy probably would have gotten a fucking standing ovation.
I'm not sure how that's relevant? The point is booing especially against Trump is a good way to show the world that he doesn't have universal support, a lot of people hate his guts and to personally get under his skin even if only for a little bit.
 

Powdered Egg

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
17,070
Meanwhile, Michelle O is going viral for calling out White Flight. She was always the real one in the marriage.
 

Deleted member 25445

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
648
A lot of people who claim to be "woke" try to project self-shame on others, while not really taking responsibility themselves.

They want to lecture, whilst at the same time, refuse to be lectured by anyone who can't pass a 100% purity test.

It's just an odd way to approach things, but people from all walks of life do it.
Era is filled with these kind of people.
 

Illusion

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,407
I agree with Obama 100% percent on this. Compromise, balance, moderation, pragmatism, realism is good. "Don't let perfect be the enemy of good" as no one is perfect. " The pendulum shift" argument never contributes to societies end goal. The fact that some take words, actions and discussion and invoke the most extreme judgment on their intent or apply the purity "your argument is in bad faith" talk on every single opposing or nuanced different point never is a positive thing for anyone in the end.
Agreed. Someone had to say it.
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,686
"We don't want "purity"; we want to seize the chance to remake the world for the better." Through purity tests, you can say it's not purity test, but in practicality it's going to be a purity test on application. If you want the group which changes the world to conform to one view and root out broad based opinions which dwelves from the left to the middle, you root out as much of the Center as possible and go with the most conforming crowd and when a certain goal is reached, the next step will shed even more from left and so on and so on. That is purity by implementation.
If you think it's a purity test to not be racist or sexist or homophobic, so be it, it needs to be that way. These are base-level expectations of good people.
 

OtherWorldly

Banned
Dec 3, 2018
2,857
If you think it's a purity test to not be racist or sexist or homophobic, so be it, it needs to be that way. These are base-level expectations of good people.

what did I write about "pendulum shift" assumptions made about someone's opinions because you didn't agree with it above?

The pendulum shift" argument never contributes to societies end goal. The fact that some take words, actions and discussion and invoke the most extreme judgment on their intent or apply the purity "your argument is in bad faith" talk on every single opposing or nuanced different point never is a positive thing for anyone in the end.

You took my words and assumed a bad intent and thought I meant we should include racists and homophobic opinions into the broad mix of opinions for future . That's not what I mean and that's not how it works
 

TheRuralJuror

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,504
You literally can't see the wood for the trees on this. It's textbook addiction.

There is no parallel between alt-right tactics and talking points and what the man is saying. You are the embodiment of what he is talking about. He is not making the point you are convinced he is making. Being intransigent about the nature of dialogue is the whole point! He is not trying to take anything away from any socially progressive advancement, absolve any wrong doing or weaken any resolve. In fact what he is talking about (due process) is a help not a hindrance to all of those causes.

Also the wider sociopolitical failings of Obama or his Presidency have nothing to do with what he is talking about and flinging it in his face is cheap. This is simply about decency and a whole generation seemingly have no idea what that is because they are living in an imaginary hyper-reality due to social fucking media.

Very well said. Summed the situation up about as well as can be done.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
This is simply about decency and a whole generation seemingly have no idea what that is because they are living in an imaginary hyper-reality due to social fucking media.
Ok boomer

As an LGBT dude who's ALSO worked in customer service I've just gotta say the statement that the younger generations lack decency is hilarious
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,330
This is simply about decency and a whole generation seemingly have no idea what that is because they are living in an imaginary hyper-reality due to social fucking media.

"Personally I hate this culture who is so quick to generalize huge swaths of people and denounce them without empathy, I'm glad I'm not like them.... this entire generation lacks decency!"

The audacity to come in and proselytize and then declare that an entire generation lacks decency.

Brah your high horse just suffocated in quick sand
 

RingRang

Alt account banned
Banned
Oct 2, 2019
2,442
You literally can't see the wood for the trees on this. It's textbook addiction.

There is no parallel between alt-right tactics and talking points and what the man is saying. You are the embodiment of what he is talking about. He is not making the point you are convinced he is making. Being intransigent about the nature of dialogue is the whole point! He is not trying to take anything away from any socially progressive advancement, absolve any wrong doing or weaken any resolve. In fact what he is talking about (due process) is a help not a hindrance to all of those causes.

Also the wider sociopolitical failings of Obama or his Presidency have nothing to do with what he is talking about and flinging it in his face is cheap. This is simply about decency and a whole generation seemingly have no idea what that is because they are living in an imaginary hyper-reality due to social fucking media.
This post is so good.
 

Deleted member 2625

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,596
Ok boomer

As an LGBT dude who's ALSO worked in customer service I've just gotta say the statement that the younger generations lack decency is hilarious

it is a fucking trip, a serious mind warp, to read stuff like this now as an Old, who was very much of the same opinion as you 20 years ago, and having watched this cycle just repeat endlessly, and how futile it probably is it even argue with my former self much less rando forum posters...

All I can say is, it's not automatic that you lose your whole perspective when you get past 40. Yes some ossify in horrifying ways but not everyone. Believe it or not.

there is a whole other 5 levels beyond your retail meatspace experience, minimum

p.s. not a boomer, that's my parents
 

TheRuralJuror

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,504
Ok boomer

As an LGBT dude who's ALSO worked in customer service I've just gotta say the statement that the younger generations lack decency is hilarious

Mate, I've worked tech support in the past and oh boy... The nastiness displayed by some old folks is something else and I've got zero patience for it. You should see me go on a tangent when an older person starts up about millennial values and work ethic lol. People in general are getting worst over the years when it comes to discourse sadly. I assume that's the decency that poster was referring to possibly.

As an additional note. Many of us are aware of the effects of social media on boomers as well. I've felt like this was a societal issue at large for some time now myself.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
it is a fucking trip, a serious mind warp, to read stuff like this now as an Old, who was very much of the same opinion as you 20 years ago, and having watched this cycle just repeat endlessly, and how futile it probably is it even argue with my former self much less rando forum posters...

All I can say is, it's not automatic that you lose your whole perspective when you get past 40. Yes some ossify in horrifying ways but not everyone. Believe it or not.

there is a whole other 5 levels beyond your retail meatspace experience, minimum
That was only half of my post though, it's backed up by so so so many polls that younger people are MUCH more accepting of people like me than older people are.

So yeah, that original post decrying the younger generations for lack of decency was horseshit.
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,215
At this point I feel like the conversation is too meta as to have any actual meaning. What specifically are we even talking about.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
At this point I feel like the conversation is too meta as to have any actual meaning. What specifically are we even talking about.
That's actually why I really don't like responses like Obama's. "Call-out culture" has done far more good than bad. It seems like his next sentence was about to be "ya know women sometimes lie about rape"
 

Deleted member 835

User requested account deletion
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,660
what a great post.

I think that 2nd "way" might be the most dangerous topic on Era


me too – that was kind of a cheap shot in my part, sorry about that


sure perfect justice would be nice.

The way I took the Obama quote is – say what you will online, but just don't stop there –go further, take some concrete physical action in the real world.
Am a black man, am tired of trying to change racists. Leave it to other people
 

Deleted member 2625

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,596
That was only half of my post though, it's backed up by so so so many polls that younger people are MUCH more accepting of people like me than older people are.

So yeah, that original post decrying the younger generations for lack of decency was horseshit.

no no, you're right, but like... let me just take a random example: hippies. 1969. was a huge social revolution. Super love, super acceptance. And genuine on many parts. Then they turned around, bought big houses and cars and GUESS WHAT oh shit they made arms deals and wrecked the biome

point is a generational brush is too wide to paint with, that's all I'm sayin'
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,970
Ok boomer

As an LGBT dude who's ALSO worked in customer service I've just gotta say the statement that the younger generations lack decency is hilarious
"Personally I hate this culture who is so quick to generalize huge swaths of people and denounce them without empathy, I'm glad I'm not like them.... this entire generation lacks decency!"

The audacity to come in and proselytize and then declare that an entire generation lacks decency.

Brah your high horse just suffocated in quick sand
Ok this is fair criticism. It isn't just young people by any means and I'm including my generation in this BTW, am 39.

There is a definite lack of decency on the internet. IRL things are about the same it's true.

If Joe Biden came to your house would you punch him in the face the way you would on social media? Probably not and that's the point.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
no no, you're right, but like... let me just take a random example: hippies. 1969. was a huge social revolution. Super love, super acceptance. And genuine on many parts. Then they turned around, bought big houses and cars and GUESS WHAT oh shit they made arms deals and wrecked the biome

point is a generational brush is too wide to paint with, that's all I'm sayin'
Alright yeah that's fair
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,215
That's actually why I really don't like responses by Obama. "Call-out culture" has done far more good than bad. It seems like his next sentence was about to be "ya know women sometimes lie about rape"
It didn't seem like that at all to me.

Which is the thing. No one knows what anyone else is talking about because we are so deep into the trenches of internet meta-discourse where there are presumed subtexts to every imaginable phrase that are usually not intended or understood.

Is he talking about rape, being pro-choice, hanging out with Bush, not believing women, laughing at a LGBT joke in a stand up, or enjoying a Kanye album? It could be any, and I have drastically different reactions depending on which it is - yet we are all assuming we know.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
Ok this is fair criticism. It isn't just young people by any means and I'm including my generation in this BTW, am 39.

There is a definite lack of decency on the internet. IRL things are about the same it's true.

If Joe Biden came to your house would you punch him in the face the way you would on social media? Probably not and that's the point.
Why are you assuming they would do either?
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,701
I agree with Obama 100% percent on this. Compromise, balance, moderation, pragmatism, realism is good. "Don't let perfect be the enemy of good" as no one is perfect. " The pendulum shift" argument never contributes to societies end goal. The fact that some take words, actions and discussion and invoke the most extreme judgment on their intent or apply the purity "your argument is in bad faith" talk on every single opposing or nuanced different point never is a positive thing for anyone in the end.
This is a nice summation of what we should be shooting for. There seems to be an unending stream of people on the internet who naively think that publicly displaying their outrage, regardless of the triviality of a transgression, will significantly change things for the better. I'd say that we've seen this play out over the past decade and the net effect has actually been negative progress in many regards.

Really changing things for the better requires boots on the ground. It sometimes requires legal and structural changes to governance that are better implemented in middle of the night rather than being broadcast in the loudest way possible. Sometimes it takes playing dirty. What it most certainly doesn't take is getting hamstrung by armchair analysis which ultimately pits and fractures the political alignment of people who can help each other in real life.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,469
Ok this is fair criticism. It isn't just young people by any means and I'm including my generation in this BTW, am 39.

There is a definite lack of decency on the internet. IRL things are about the same it's true.

If Joe Biden came to your house would you punch him in the face the way you would on social media? Probably not and that's the point.

Is it a fair criticism though? Does anyone in this thread honestly think that Barack Obama is pining for the return of racism and homophobia?

Obama is talking about a very specific type of dialogue that is not helpful or productive whatsoever. It is possible to progress in some areas tremendously while regressing in other areas...we can return to a point where we don't assume bad intentions about anyone who disagrees with us politically without also returning to the point where we are super racist and homophobic.

This should not be a difficult thing to comprehend, these things are not tied together.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,970
Is it a fair criticism though? Does anyone in this thread honestly think that Barack Obama is pining for the return of racism and homophobia?

Obama is talking about a very specific type of dialogue that is not helpful or productive whatsoever. It is possible to progress in some areas tremendously while regressing in other areas...we can return to a point where we don't assume bad intentions about anyone who disagrees with us politically without also returning to the point where we are super racist and homophobic.

This should not be a difficult thing to comprehend, these things are not tied together.
I'm addressing the criticisms directed at me about my comments on "young people" and decency: I do not see any major difference in interactions from younger people today than I did 20 years ago, there seems to be the same amount of assholes more or less; that's all I was addressing here. I did not specify a generation in my comments but younger people were implied (I still include myself as young at 39!).
 

BlackGoku03

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,276
I am "getting it", you just refuse to acknowledge something that doesn't fit your worldview.

Words are action. Words are power, and words can very much also be violence. What happens during speeches? WORDS. The written word is worth no less than spoken word. Discounting words just because they're spoken on a platform that doesn't suit your idea of a proper platform or venue just makes you sound snobbish.

Kind of like you want to be better than the people who use social media to talk about issues and raise awareness. I could have sworn that that sort of bullshit would be looked down by most.

I advise you to spend more time with philosophy, it would help soften up that narrow view you seem to have on words, and the power of them.

I don't know what you want to talk about, but that's what I've been talking about from the beginning. Words are action, so is living according to your words. Anything you actively do is action by definition.

See the posts below. They put it nicely.

So yes, yes, I know there are power in words. I know words can inspire. I know social media has provided avenues to a lot of people who didn't have a voice before.

But those powerful words only amount to so much if you don't follow them up with action. Words alone don't cut it. I'm not going to convince anyone in SC to not vote for Trump with a nicely worded letter.

sure if you've got a platform. otherwise you're kind of just bowling into the void.

think the point is, words are not enough.
I think he's saying that anyone can write what they want on the internet and that not everyone who vows to do good actually ends up acting on their intent. He's not entirely dismissing the power of words.
 

lowmelody

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,101
The topic is straight up counter productive unless applied to actual specific examples.

Too much is hidden and assumed when spoken of in a general sense and clarity is needed to navigate the endless insinuations.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,970
People don't like Joe around here. They will let others know this. It is safe to say that resetera is representative of a certain demographic. If he knocked on said persons front door who had previously trashed him on this or another forum would that person trash talk him face to face? That's all. A metaphorical punch in the face.

Like almost everyone else here I also don't like Joe's politics, just to be clear.

Apologies to the Biden supporters in advance.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,330
People don't like Joe around here. They will let others know this. It is safe to say that resetera is representative of a certain demographic. If he knocked on said persons front door who had previously trashed him on this or another forum would that person trash talk him face to face? That's all. A metaphorical punch in the face.

Like almost everyone else here I also don't like Joe's politics, just to be clear.

Apologies to the Biden supporters in advance.

Lol I love this you romance Obama's words of nuance and shit and here you are equating shitting on Biden online to punching him in the face, and you did not say metaphorical initially (not that that even makes sense), you're far more hyperbolic than the people you claim to be upset about, shit dude you're everything you claim to have an issue with, you could fill an IMAX screen right now.

Where's your decency?
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,970
Lol I love this you romance Obama's words of nuance and shit and here you are equating shitting on Biden online to punching him in the face, and you did not say metaphorical initially (not that that even makes sense), you're far more hyperbolic than the people you claim to be upset about, shit dude you're everything you claim to have an issue with, you could fill an IMAX screen right now.

Where's your decency?
I am not a fan of Obama's politics. That has ZERO to do with the point he has made. I don't really see the hyperbole, it was just a metaphor.

I think you're missing my point.
 
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