lmcfigs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,091
So, let's make this a substantive discussion. What issues are unique to Bernie, specifically? And do Beto/Biden outright oppose(And by outright oppose, would vote against/veto if they had the opportunity) any of those issues? Let's keep it to domestic policy as well.

Probably, you should be aware of what some of these policies are. Single payer, 15 dollar minimum wage, jobs guarantee, etc. Asking for the president to not veto bills that are passed by his own party is a pretty low bar, but okay. I guess even though Biden would not go to bat for single payer, like I'd want and may very well advocate for something worse; I suppose if it somehow passed congress without his help - then sure, I guess he'd probably sign it. Not really sure why that makes him a good candidate, but okay. Great thought experiment I guess.
 

Deleted member 5666

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,753
Probably, you should be aware of what some of these policies are. Single payer, 15 dollar minimum wage, jobs guarantee, etc. Asking for the president to not veto bills that are passed by his own party is a pretty low bar, but okay. I guess even though Biden would not go to bat for single payer, like I'd want and may very well advocate for something worse; I suppose if it somehow passed congress without his help - then sure, I guess he'd probably sign it. Not really sure why that makes him a good candidate, but okay. Great thought experiment I guess.
All the people running are far more progressive than Joe Manchin.

There is not a single piece of major legislation that will ever reach the next Presidents desk in the first term that doesn't have Joe Manchins support.

Because the most optimistic outcome in 2020 for the senate is clawing back a 50-51 seat majority at best.

Anything that reaches the presidents desk has to go through the senate. A senate that will be much more conservative/"centrist" than Beto, Bernie, Kamala, Warren, or Booker.

This is something a lot of people seem to forget
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
Probably, you should be aware of what some of these policies are. Single payer, 15 dollar minimum wage, jobs guarantee, etc. Asking for the president to not veto bills that are passed by his own party is a pretty low bar, but okay. I guess even though Biden would not go to bat for single payer, like I'd want and may very well advocate for something worse; I suppose if it somehow passed congress without his help - then sure, I guess he'd probably sign it. Not really sure why that makes him a good candidate, but okay. Great thought experiment I guess.
All of those would vote for single payer in congress and wouldn't veto them, it just isn't their preferred vehicle. If public option being preferred(And, NO that being preferred in the democratic party has been a thing since LONG before Bernie had relevance) is your no true scottsman line then most European countries aren't left at all.

15 dollar minimum wage? You're arguing the difference between 12 and 15. $15 isn't the same thing in every part of the country and thus shouldn't be a nationalized number. That's a reasonable target.

If that's all you got for the major differences then your left/center divide is nonexistent.
 

lmcfigs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,091
All of those would vote for single payer in congress and wouldn't veto them, it just isn't their preferred vehicle. If public option being preferred(And, NO that being preferred in the democratic party has been a thing since LONG before Bernie had relevance) is your no true scottsman line then most European countries aren't left at all.

15 dollar minimum wage? You're arguing the difference between 12 and 15. $15 isn't the same thing in every part of the country and thus shouldn't be a nationalized number. That's a reasonable target.

If that's all you got for the major differences then your left/center divide is nonexistent.
Yeah! totally if you ignore the issues I care about, there really isn't that much of a difference.
 

Deleted member 5666

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,753
Yeah! totally if you ignore the issues I care about, there really isn't that much of a difference.
Let me know how you get Joe Manchin on board (you won't get anything through the senate the next presidential term without his vote) before you start worrying about getting the much more liberal presidential candidates like Beto or Kamala.
 

lmcfigs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,091
I think I qualified my statements a ton. I don't expect single payer to pass. I'm still not sure why I would want someone who opposes single payer to be president instead of someone who would push for it. It's almost (not quite) the equivalent of saying "I'd rather have Trump in office right now, because Hillary wouldn't be able to get her policies through this senate".
 

Deleted member 5666

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,753
I think I qualified my statements a ton. I don't expect single payer to pass. I'm still not sure why I would want someone who opposes single payer to be president instead of someone who would push for it. It's almost (not quite) the equivalent of saying "I'd rather have Trump in office right now, because Hillary wouldn't be able to get her policies through this senate".
The one things Presidents have full power over are judges. Not one of the main Dems will be putting up "centrist" judges.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,353
Sydney
Let me know how you get Joe Manchin on board (you won't get anything through the senate the next presidential term without his vote) before you start worrying about getting the much more liberal presidential candidates like Beto or Kamala.

If Manchin is a legitimate obstacle though, there's going to be a negotiation.

And if there's going to be a negotiation, that negotiation is going to boil down to some sort of compromise based on the distances between positions.

Now, if you are someone who wants single payer, or a $15 Federal minimum wage, you are going to gravitate toward the candidate with that position, because even if they don't get everything you want, by simple merit of their opening position being further to the left, what you end up with would be further left.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
I think I qualified my statements a ton. I don't expect single payer to pass. I'm still not sure why I would want someone who opposes single payer to be president instead of someone who would push for it. It's almost (not quite) the equivalent of saying "I'd rather have Trump in office right now, because Hillary wouldn't be able to get her policies through this senate".
They're not opposed to single payer, though. This is my point. It's just not their first choice. There's a difference. Not to even mention you're ignoring the fact that public option countries like Germany have better healthcare systems than places like Canada's single payer system. Like, why are people stuck on single payer as the one TRUE lefty option?
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
Do you think Biden and Bernie would nominate the same judges?
They'd be pretty damn close to each other. The way the process works out is that they're given a shortlist of people qualfiied for the position that are also progressive from their party. Trump not choosing from his party's short-list for Kav is an exception, not the rule. The differences between Bernie and Biden judges would be a lot more minimal than you're thinking.

Of course, if the Senate's not taken I'd expect both of them to pick someone like a Merrick Garland so they have a chance.
 
OP
OP
Kirblar

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
They'd be pretty damn close to each other. The way the process works out is that they're given a shortlist of people qualfiied for the position that are also progressive from their party. Trump not choosing from his party's short-list for Kav is an exception, not the rule. The differences between Bernie and Biden judges would be a lot more minimal than you're thinking.

Of course, if the Senate's not taken I'd expect both of them to pick someone like a Merrick Garland so they have a chance.
Garland was likely picked because they knew he was unlikely to get a vote. Had they had a Dem Senate a younger candidate would have been chosen.
 

TarNaru33

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,045
All of those would vote for single payer in congress and wouldn't veto them, it just isn't their preferred vehicle. If public option being preferred(And, NO that being preferred in the democratic party has been a thing since LONG before Bernie had relevance) is your no true scottsman line then most European countries aren't left at all.

15 dollar minimum wage? You're arguing the difference between 12 and 15. $15 isn't the same thing in every part of the country and thus shouldn't be a nationalized number. That's a reasonable target.

If that's all you got for the major differences then your left/center divide is nonexistent.

You seem to not get, that we want a president that will fight aggressively for the more liberal policies. Not one going in for $12 then suddenly you see them passing $10 and patting themselves on the bzck. $12 and $15 is a difference of 5K a year, that is not small at all.

It may be "slight difference" to you, but to those that really care and really need it, it's not optimal along with it not being slight.

No one expects perfection, but we do expect leaders to have high standards in terms of left policies, the same goes for healthcare. Single payer which will insure everyone, and public option that insurers a few more million people are significantly different.

Let me know how you get Joe Manchin on board (you won't get anything through the senate the next presidential term without his vote) before you start worrying about getting the much more liberal presidential candidates like Beto or Kamala.

Tell Manchin to vote on it and retire as he probably wants to do anyways. He is probably only there just to help Democrats because we have no replacement, so if he cant pass sweeping legislation that will help Democrats he lost his purpose.

As soon as he is gone, WV will very likely go red anyway, may as well do something good to better lives.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
You seem to not get, that we want a president that will fight aggressively for the more liberal policies. Not one going in for $12 then suddenly you see them passing $10 and patting themselves on the bzck. $12 and $15 is a difference of 5K a year, that is not small at all.

It may be "slight difference" to you, but to those that really care and really need it, it's not optimal along with it not being slight.

No one expects perfection, but we do expect leaders to have high standards in terms of left policies, the same goes for healthcare. Single payer which will insure everyone, and public option that insurers a few more million people are significantly different.

Negotiation never works that way in Congress. Both sides know exactly what they'll take before they get it before the issue is even brought up in most cases. Republicans aren't even gonna compromise to give a $10 minimum wage, better yet a $12. All you're arguing about is how much you like Candidate B's tone and facade of leftism. $15 isn't even a good policy applied across the entire nation even if it's better than what we have now.

Like, even Obama tried for a minimum wage hike, didn't get it because pubs didn't want to give him a win. All he was able to do was raise the minimum wage of federal employess, since that didn't require congress.
 
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Ripcord

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,803
That's simply logical. Bernie has positioned himself as someone who is always the underdog and unlike a candidate like Obama does not adapt to within the party when it could help him strive upward, because doing so would go against his brand/philosophy of being the ultimate outsider. This is why he default to Independent outside of Dem presidential primaries.

Any no name progressive would be in the same boat, they're not suddenly going to win the nomination unless they work hard getting known and popular in the media, voters and with the party itself. Not having large donors or PAC's is a severe drawback to financial backing, as well. Not everyone can be Beto on that front.

I'd give Beto higher chances at beating Trump than Bernie. Beto shows signs of holding a coalition together, Bernie does not.

Biden needs to stay out of the primaries, it's time for new generations to take over.

I dunno that I'd call it logical. I could see why people could think that, but I don't think Bernie is an actual threat to the party. It's their party and they're gonna do what they like. So the chants only serve to irritate a certain demo within the party. The dems always need all the help the can get so much like in 2016 I'm mystified that some are seemingly eager to draw a clear division within the party and drive all non-believers into the hills. Again.
 

TarNaru33

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,045
Negotiation never works that way. Both sides know exactly what they'll take before they get it before the issue is even brought up in most cases. Republicans aren't even gonna compromise to give a $10 minimum wage, better yet a $12. All you're arguing about is how much you like Candidate B's tone and facade of leftism. $15 isn't even a good policy applied across the entire nation even if it's better than what we have now.

Actually, $15 is good policy unless you think we should hold back to appease the irreversibly dying rural towns, never mind most of the population dont live in those cheap towns.

Also I never said that is how negotiations always work (even though this does happen sometimes for the illusion of compromise), just that there is no reason to go with a head of state with lower standards.

If a candidate sells out then punish them later, so I wouldn't say I am arguing over a facade.
 

TerminusFox

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,851
Actually, $15 is good policy unless you think we should hold back to appease the irreversibly dying rural towns, never mind most of the population dont live in those cheap towns.

Also I never said that is how negotiations always work (even though this does happen sometimes for the illusion of compromise), just that there is no reason to go with a head of state with lower standards.

If a candidate sells out then punish them later, so I wouldn't say I am arguing over a facade.
And that right there is why you'll never get anywhere.
 
Oct 28, 2017
993
Dublin
Negotiation never works that way in Congress. Both sides know exactly what they'll take before they get it before the issue is even brought up in most cases. Republicans aren't even gonna compromise to give a $10 minimum wage, better yet a $12. All you're arguing about is how much you like Candidate B's tone and facade of leftism. $15 isn't even a good policy applied across the entire nation even if it's better than what we have now.

Like, even Obama tried for a minimum wage hike, didn't get it because pubs didn't want to give him a win. All he was able to do was raise the minimum wage of federal employess, since that didn't require congress.
You vote for a candidate based on their policy positions and whether or not they match yours. The fact Bernie supports a living wage, Medicare for all, free college, etc. means he supports those who are less fortunate and would support policies that better the social mobility ladder.

You don't go to the polling station and say well I agree with Sanders on all of his economic positions but he's not going to get any of this through so let's vote for someone who doesn't support or advocate for the things I want.
 

Kayla

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,316
The hate for Bernie just makes me want to vote for him even more. Like the one candidate who's honest and stands by his word and yet they keep blaming him and finding ways to make him look bad, this time even before the election has even started.

The ageism against him is real and astounding, yet people seem A-ok with that.

This. People are getting upset by the word "centrist" being thrown around, but its okay to call women like me "bernie bros" I might as well just go full on bernie or bust since people want to attack his supporters, why not? He is pretty much the only candidate i align with anyway.
 

Kirbivore

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,976
You vote for a candidate based on their policy positions and whether or not they match yours. The fact Bernie supports a living wage, Medicare for all, free college, etc. means he supports those who are less fortunate and would support policies that better the social mobility ladder.

You don't go to the polling station and say well I agree with Sanders on all of his economic positions but he's not going to get any of this through so let's vote for someone who doesn't support or advocate for the things I want.

I dont know, have you ever seen how people vote? With the Clinton lies and wont do what she says, lets vote for Trunp, he wont do his blatant racist policies
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
Actually, $15 is good policy unless you think we should hold back to appease the irreversibly dying rural towns, never mind most of the population dont live in those cheap towns.

Also I never said that is how negotiations always work (even though this does happen sometimes for the illusion of compromise), just that there is no reason to go with a head of state with lower standards.

If a candidate sells out then punish them later, so I wouldn't say I am arguing over a facade.
It's not just rural towns for which $15 is insane for, but saying fuck you got mine to them sure is nice. There are plenty of cities that are only city in name, when it reality they're sprawling suburbs with low cost of living, in fact the majority of cities are that way.

There is a reason for a head of state to go with reasonable, better standards, but going for a more reasonable $12 is suddenly the dividing line between neoliberal centrism and leftism now?

And what even is selling out defined as? I suppose Obama's a sell-out because he didn't get everything he promised done even though literally nobody would be able to pass anything you'd want with the teaparty in power and thus everyone is a sell-out.

You vote for a candidate based on their policy positions and whether or not they match yours. The fact Bernie supports a living wage, Medicare for all, free college, etc. means he supports those who are less fortunate and would support policies that better the social mobility ladder.

You don't go to the polling station and say well I agree with Sanders on all of his economic positions but he's not going to get any of this through so let's vote for someone who doesn't support or advocate for the things I want.

I do vote for policy positions. It's literally the only thing I care about. It's why I don't like Sanders. My point is the difference in policy positions is of a few percent and don't warrant a chant of anyone who is not EXACTLY like Sanders is a neoliberal centrist shill or some such nonsense when said not EXACTLY like Sanders candidates support very similar things(Like, medicare for all!).

Sanders positions aren't the worst thing ever, they're just poorly thought out and the examples of countries doing the equivalent to his positions do worse than the countries that do the equivalent of other candidates positions. But those countries certainly are better than the status quo in terms of healthcare/schooling etc.

This. People are getting upset by the word "centrist" being thrown around, but its okay to call women like me "bernie bros" I might as well just go full on bernie or bust since people want to attack his supporters, why not? He is pretty much the only candidate i align with anyway.

We just had like five threads with people attacking Beto(Who, to be clear, I do not want to be president either) over tiny things saying he's a neoliberal shill or some such combination of the thing and dismissing anyone pointing that out as not wanting to vet candidates. And now, pointing out that throwing around buzz words like Centrist, or neoliberal is kinda pointless when the candidates are single digit percentage points difference policy-wise is enough for people to go Bernie or bust? Really?
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,645
The one things Presidents have full power over are judges. Not one of the main Dems will be putting up "centrist" judges.
No but you can expect a lot of them to nominate business friendly judges who won't protect workers, and will side with businesses against the common citizen. It depends on who their source of revenue and keys to power are. Just look at how Harris literally let Steve Mnuchin steal peoples homes, literally illegalky steal, and didn't even try to prosecute him despite obvious criminal wrongdoing. You think she's going to nominate judges that'll protect people from wealthy parasites like him when she wouldn't lift a finger to do the same when she had all the power in the world to do so?
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,645
We just had like five threads with people attacking Beto(Who, to be clear, I do not want to be president either) over tiny things saying he's a neoliberal shill or some such combination of the thing and dismissing anyone pointing that out as not wanting to vet candidates. And now, pointing out that throwing around buzz words like Centrist, or neoliberal is kinda pointless when the candidates are single digit percentage points difference policy-wise is enough for people to go Bernie or bust? Really?
And we have had 3-4 Bernie hate threads a week from the same three people for three years now. Welcome to the fire.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
And we have had 3-4 Bernie hate threads a week from the same three people for three years now. Welcome to the fire.
What fire? I don't have a preferred candidate and I dislike Beto as much as I dislike Bernie. The content of the every few months Bernie threads over the last couple of years have mostly been of him saying tangibly stupid shit on race, not some borderline pointless breaking of a pact by having individuals donate insignificant amounts to Beto's campaign when he upheld the spirit of it.

I'd be fine with the thread on Beto's policy stances if it wasn't blowing up 92%(Compared to saint Bernard's 95%) voting in line with the party as suddenly being the same as being a conservative, because, as I said, I don't even like Beto. But, no, the bernie camp's attacks are so ridiculously hyperbolic and paint literally everyone that doesn't support Bernie with the same exact brush that I can't say their attacks are legitimate even against candidates I particularly dislike.

Like, the basis of this thread is simply an article pointing out polling numbers and how other people in the party view him as a way to say he might have some difficulty clinching the nomination. Is that attacking Bernie? Not really.

No but you can expect a lot of them to nominate business friendly judges who won't protect workers, and will side with businesses against the common citizen. It depends on who their source of revenue and keys to power are. Just look at how Harris literally let Steve Mnuchin steal peoples homes, literally illegalky steal, and didn't even try to prosecute him despite obvious criminal wrongdoing. You think she's going to nominate judges that'll protect people from wealthy parasites like him when she wouldn't lift a finger to do the same when she had all the power in the world to do so?
C'mon man, the "neoliberal" Obama even appointed anti-business judges other than Garland(Who was only put up with a presumption of failure).
 

KillLaCam

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,410
Seoul
I just want more people he would endorse. Not too interested in having more old guy leaders even if theyre like Bernie
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
Polls ain't helping
DvXxy92VAAAyr24
Joe fucking Biden. Were so fucked. 2016 all over again if he gets the ticket.
 

TarNaru33

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,045
And that right there is why you'll never get anywhere.

Dont be naive, rural voters (who are predominantly racist) arent going to stop voting Republican in record numbers. Democrats need to offer avenues for rural communities to be able to escape rural areas, not subsidize them (which we already do). Things like job retraining, helping pay for moving, etc.

The problem is they don't want to adapt to the changing environment, just like how coal miners want the coal jobs back despite automation and the cheaper alternatives killing it off. They dont want to hear about us trying to retrain them for actual better jobs, they want what they know back.

I sympathize with them and I am still young, but I recognize that one have to adapt.

It's not just rural towns for which $15 is insane for, but saying fuck you got mine to them sure is nice. There are plenty of cities that are only city in name, when it reality they're sprawling suburbs with low cost of living, in fact the majority of cities are that way.

There is a reason for a head of state to go with reasonable, better standards, but going for a more reasonable $12 is suddenly the dividing line between neoliberal centrism and leftism now?

And what even is selling out defined as? I suppose Obama's a sell-out because he didn't get everything he promised done even though literally nobody would be able to pass anything you'd want with the teaparty in power and thus everyone is a sell-out.

FYI, I never said we shouldn't help rural areas. Those areas are dying because U.S is undergoing urbanization and rural areas are inefficient as hell. Only some of them can thrive, but much of it will become job starved as manufacturing decays and cities change zoning laws.

My saying we shouldn't throw others under the bus under false pretenses of helping or saving those areas is because they have to move.

The sprawl you mentioned is definitely an issue, but they are still metro areas that can largely absorb the cost of $15 minimum wage and arent seeing job decay. It's the rural areas that cant, but that cant be fixed, they have to move with the market. I rant about urban sprawl all the time and participate in many urban development threads, I didnt forget them.

To the bold, you are thinking of someone else, I never made that claim.

A sell out is a politician who gives a promise of certain policies or positions, then once elected to office, change their tune. Better have a damn good reason, show effort. Not sure why you are using Obama as an example, but no.

Obama was naive and unwilling to do what was necessary to pass ACA through such as calling for an end to the filibuster, not a sellout in my book.
 

Deleted member 1476

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,449
This. People are getting upset by the word "centrist" being thrown around, but its okay to call women like me "bernie bros" I might as well just go full on bernie or bust since people want to attack his supporters, why not? He is pretty much the only candidate i align with anyway.

If you're fine with women losing rights when more Supreme Justices retire or die and Trump/Pence/next GOP president put even more Kavanaughs over there, go right ahead, the cliff is waiting for you.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
They'd be pretty damn close to each other. The way the process works out is that they're given a shortlist of people qualfiied for the position that are also progressive from their party. Trump not choosing from his party's short-list for Kav is an exception, not the rule. The differences between Bernie and Biden judges would be a lot more minimal than you're thinking.

Of course, if the Senate's not taken I'd expect both of them to pick someone like a Merrick Garland so they have a chance.
Biden is far more to the right and business friendly than bernie. I couldn't disagree more with this sentiment. Especially since Bernie isnt even a real Democrat, why would he feel compelled to choose from a list they gave him?
 

NoName999

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,906
Boy, I wished the progressives were hard on Bernie for his centrist views on race, gun control, and the military industrial complex. Instead of just sweeping all that under the rug.
 

Deleted member 3896

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,815
At this point Bernie should resign from the Senate and let some fresh blood in. His presence in American politics is completely toxic now. Let him start a foundation or something. Seriously, his racism and his overall tone deafness on identity politics is radically out of step with contemporary progressivism. If he wants to work behind the scenes to advance progressive goals, great. But hopefully his bizarre issues with race and his strange victim complex will be left out of whatever he passes on to better next generation progressives.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,645
Boy, I wished the progressives were hard on Bernie for his centrist views on race, gun control, and the military industrial complex. Instead of just sweeping all that under the rug.
Bolded is absolutely ridiculous. Bernie is easily one of the most progressive senators on foreign policy if not easily the most progressive and is one of new in congress talking about Palestinian rights to the war in Yemen we're allowing to happen.
 

NoName999

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,906
Bolded is absolutely ridiculous. Bernie is easily one of the most progressive senators on foreign policy if not easily the most progressive and is one of new in congress talking about Palestinian rights to the war in Yemen we're allowing to happen.

I was talking about him being more than happy to bring in defense corporations in Vermont in the name of jobs.
 

TarNaru33

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,045

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
Who is letting Biden slide exactly? In comparison to Beto, the amount of optimism I see for him is quite small.
The first page is filled with people asking bernie to step aside while ignoring the graph indicating Biden is much further ahead and should be priority 1 of getting off the ticket before we get to bernie.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,731
Right. Maybe you're unaware of this, then, but without Bernie in the race, the top two candidates (Beto and Biden) have both so far waffled on those "inspired" positions or outright oppose them. So then, why would I want Bernie to leave the race, when his top competitors aren't with him on even the co-opted issues, let alone those stances of his they haven't picked up on.
When did I say Bernie should leave the race or tell you who you should be supporting?

The first page is filled with people asking bernie to step aside while ignoring the graph indicating Biden is much further ahead and should be priority 1 of getting off the ticket before we get to bernie.
Biden is the front runner by virtue of name ID. If he's still ahead by double digits this time next year, then everyone else is blowing it.
 

Madison

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,388
Lima, Peru
Boy, I wished the progressives were hard on Bernie for his centrist views on race, gun control, and the military industrial complex. Instead of just sweeping all that under the rug.
I know many progressives that arent exactly super fans of Bernie (myself included) but Im willing to tolerate a D- from the NRA and a few unquestionably wrong race comments. I prefer that a thousand times over Beto"s policies and Kamala"s record as an AG.

Also, Biden sucks.
 

RailWays

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
15,903
The first page is filled with people asking bernie to step aside while ignoring the graph indicating Biden is much further ahead and should be priority 1 of getting off the ticket before we get to bernie.
Eh, I wouldn't interpret an absence of talk regarding Biden as acceptance. Particularly because this article focuses on Bernie in particular, so it shouldn't be surprising that the focus is on him. He certainly is one of my last picks of the speculative contenders though