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Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT8| - The Dark Tower (See Staff Post)
- Thread starter Mecha Meister
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Regarding this whole theory about Sony and AMD collaborating to make Navi, I'm not so sure about this. Wasn't it the PS3 where Sony was collaborating with IBM for either the CPU or GPU (can't recall which) and IBM turned around and used that tech for the 360? Why would Sony knowingly walk into an identical situation and co-finance Navi only for it to wind up in MS's next console? I guess they could just be playing Mr. Nice Guy and so long as they get what they wanted then they don't care who else gets it, but I dunno.
I do recall one of the leaks (the one with the pastry pics) mentioned that it was actually the RT implementation that was a close collaboration between Sony and AMD, and the person who wrote the leak speculated that may have been the source for the rumor that Navi was built for the PS5. At least this rumor about the RT is a bit more believable, but I dunno by how much.
I do recall one of the leaks (the one with the pastry pics) mentioned that it was actually the RT implementation that was a close collaboration between Sony and AMD, and the person who wrote the leak speculated that may have been the source for the rumor that Navi was built for the PS5. At least this rumor about the RT is a bit more believable, but I dunno by how much.
I'd pondered that and asked about it a couple days ago but didn't get many takers on discussing it. ReRAM latecy seems to be in the microsecond range and DDR4 is in the nanosecond range, so there is indeed a big difference there. Going by the Sony rep's talk in the video I posted above though it seems like they're intending it to sit between the NAND and DRAM and act as a cache.
Further down the road I can see RERAM replacing NAND completely as it scales lower. If there's a PS6 I would fully expect its on-board storage to be all ReRAM, unless something better comes along. Also, kinda looking forward to seeing if they can put this tech into mobile phones as primary storage.
I found it funny that they mentioned they played it on a PS5 devkit, lol
Depends which parts, whether they are separable and how they interact with normal compute.
Eg. Intersection acceleration is useful all over, assuming I could invoke it in a regular shader.
Search/traversal acceleration could have its uses too, as could generating acceleration structures (if that has dedicated hw) but without implementation specifics its hard to talk how you'd use them.
Sorry for going slightly off-topic. Has there been any discussion about PS4 Pro's Geekbench 4 benchmark results?
Someone hacked PS4 Pro to run Linux on it and ran Geekbench 4 CPU benchmark.
Interesting results/scores here: https://browser.geekbench.com/user/216969
Link to the vid:
Someone hacked PS4 Pro to run Linux on it and ran Geekbench 4 CPU benchmark.
Interesting results/scores here: https://browser.geekbench.com/user/216969
Link to the vid:
Guessing because he was trying to design the system within a certain budget and when the subject came up they had to get the go-ahead from the top brass to go with more RAM.
Also, no one's saying Cerny is perfect. He is certainly a man with a deep passion for this business and for the job that he does. His approach to ensure he goes to a wide array of devs to get feedback was a breath of fresh air compared to what Sony had done in the past and worked out amazingly well. He's done the same with the PS5 and we can only guess what features were at the top of the devs wishlists this time. If I had to take a guess it would be that "eliminating bottlenecks" would have been at the top of the list.
Even how perfect a man can be, all wrapped up with a budget tag.
It'd be interesting to see Zen 2 CPU's score in 3.2-3.5 GHz range for comparison.
I do have a 3700X, maybe I should start installing Linux+Geekbench 4.
If the "fast RAM" is such a tiny amount as to be not viable for storing very much of the data you need to go fast then they're right. As was the case with XBO.
If we're talking one third, or even on half, of your RAM as the "fast RAM" as with this HBM talk that is a significantly different situation.
8GB of HMB2 is a huge chunk of "fast RAM". In fact if the rumours about XSX are true the total amount of RAM it has available to games is 13GB, so 8GB is a huge huge portion of that in comparison to 32MB ESRAM against ~5GB as was this gen. PS5 may or may not have more total, but even if they went 8GB HMB2 and 8GB DDR4 it would mean the "slow" RAM is a very small portion of what developers are actually using which is the reverse of what was the case in the XBO, which means emphasising the importance of the fast RAM is actually logical.
Reductive arguments rarely work out. The situations are very, very different.
And Cerny went against the harder see solution for devs.
But this time 8 GB seems enough with a fast storage solution.
So yeah, around 4x boost incoming
Well since predictions seem to popular these days I'll toss out mine for the PS5:
3.4 GHz Zen 2 CPU
Separate ARM processor to handle OS and background functions, freeing up the Zen 2 CPU to focus on the games
13.3 TF Navi RDNA2 GPU
16 GB HBM2 RAM - 100% dedicated to the games
128 GB ReRAM @ 25.6 GB/s - the OS runs from the ReRAM so no need for additional DDR4 RAM to pair with the HBM2
1 TB SSD @ 4 - 6 GB/s
Dedicated 3D audio chip that will take full advantage of a new 3D audio format Sony will push via Wwise, based on their 360 Reality Audio tech
Full BC with the PS1 to PS4 at launch
Dual Shock 5 has an OLED display in place of the touchpad and at least 2 paddles built into the back that can either serve as extra functions in some games or be remapped to handle functions from other buttons on the controller depending on the game.
The PS5 reveal event will contain some specs to satisfy the hardcore crowd, but it will mostly focus on feelings and the experience. So things like the speed advantage differences with last gen will be demonstrated. They'll show off things that demonstrate the difference in scale and complexity of the game worlds and we'll get some great graphical showpieces. We'll get a lot about the DS5 and how its haptic feedback and resistive triggers will help immerse you in the experience. We'll also get a fair bit of info on how the 3D audio will alter our experiences both with headphones and sound systems. That sorta thing.
PS5 will be designed to be very quiet. I'm not gonna push the passive cooling theory here, but it'll be very, very quiet. Why am I certain the PS5 will be very quiet? It's been one of the biggest issues customers have talked about for years. Cerny's design philosophy is all about listening to the devs to learn what they want and try to implement it and what they've done wrong and try to fix it, it'd be silly to think they don't take a similar approach to customer feedback.
That's my prediction :)
3.4 GHz Zen 2 CPU
Separate ARM processor to handle OS and background functions, freeing up the Zen 2 CPU to focus on the games
13.3 TF Navi RDNA2 GPU
16 GB HBM2 RAM - 100% dedicated to the games
128 GB ReRAM @ 25.6 GB/s - the OS runs from the ReRAM so no need for additional DDR4 RAM to pair with the HBM2
1 TB SSD @ 4 - 6 GB/s
Dedicated 3D audio chip that will take full advantage of a new 3D audio format Sony will push via Wwise, based on their 360 Reality Audio tech
Full BC with the PS1 to PS4 at launch
Dual Shock 5 has an OLED display in place of the touchpad and at least 2 paddles built into the back that can either serve as extra functions in some games or be remapped to handle functions from other buttons on the controller depending on the game.
The PS5 reveal event will contain some specs to satisfy the hardcore crowd, but it will mostly focus on feelings and the experience. So things like the speed advantage differences with last gen will be demonstrated. They'll show off things that demonstrate the difference in scale and complexity of the game worlds and we'll get some great graphical showpieces. We'll get a lot about the DS5 and how its haptic feedback and resistive triggers will help immerse you in the experience. We'll also get a fair bit of info on how the 3D audio will alter our experiences both with headphones and sound systems. That sorta thing.
PS5 will be designed to be very quiet. I'm not gonna push the passive cooling theory here, but it'll be very, very quiet. Why am I certain the PS5 will be very quiet? It's been one of the biggest issues customers have talked about for years. Cerny's design philosophy is all about listening to the devs to learn what they want and try to implement it and what they've done wrong and try to fix it, it'd be silly to think they don't take a similar approach to customer feedback.
That's my prediction :)
My prediction
Price no idea but between 399 and 499 dollars.
- CPU: Zen 2 8 cores 16 threads 3.2 Ghz
- GPU: Navi GPU RT VRS 10.8 to 13 Tflops
- SOUND: Audio 3d co processor
- RAM: 16 GB for devs divide between 8 GB HBM2 4 stacks 820 to 870 GB/s + 12 GB DDR4(4GB for OS) 51.2 to 102.4 GB/s unified memory HBCC
- Parallel NAND Flash: 1TB fully custom SSD speed from 4 GB/s to 20 GB/s not NVMe maybe not PCIE bus
Price no idea but between 399 and 499 dollars.
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At this point I'm trying to work out which of these are attempted memes or serious.
You see if Sony produces millions and millions of consoles suppliers will give them components for 50% off.
I feel like too many are choosing to ignore some fundamental realities. Which seems strange even for a speculation thread.
I would have assumed the PS4 Pro would have been enough evidence to suggest a somewhat more conservative next generation console compared to what most of you are predicting.
Cerny openly admitted to the Pro being what it was mostly born from not wanting to break backwards compatibility with PS4 games.
Microsoft invested a shit tonne of money into a backwards compatibility solution that isn't so intrinsically tied to hardware. We're yet to see hints of any such solution from Sony (that I'm aware of)
Which again, at face value would suggest backwards compatibility will hamper at least somewhat the design of the PS5.
That's also ignoring whether one chooses to believe the rumour that a 2019 PS5 was a real thing, which would further hamper a 2020 version because the 2020 one would be based off the 2019 one.
My prediction
Zen 2 3.2Ghz + RDNA2 Navi on a 7nm+ die
Separate I/O 12nm die + Sony 3D Audio
16GB GDDR6 Ram
8GB DDR4 RAM
1TB NVME SSD
Zen 2 3.2Ghz + RDNA2 Navi on a 7nm+ die
Separate I/O 12nm die + Sony 3D Audio
16GB GDDR6 Ram
8GB DDR4 RAM
1TB NVME SSD
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I reeeeeeeeaaally doubt that any console in the upcoming gen will choose HBM over G6. Not many benefits you get from HBM for the cost it adds.
Also the number of stacks correspond to cost directly and thus 4 stacks is a pipe dream meaning that the only viable option would be 2 which removes most of HBM bandwidth advantage over G6 as well.
Why in the world would the 2020 unit be based off the 2019 unit? The rumor goes that the decision was made in 2017, which would have been well before they were locked into any hardware.
As for BC, I've already outlined my reasons for expecting it to happen earlier in the thread.
What?
So Sony sunk all that money into the 2019 version, had it to a point where it was basically ready to go, then completely scrapped it and start again?
Do any of you actually read out your posts before pushing the button?
Sony: Pissed off devs with a split memory pool in PS3
Microsoft: Pissed off devs with a split memory pool in Xbox One
Now you're all predicting Sony will once again piss of devs with a split memory pool?
Fucking lol
Now you're just getting silly 😋
I think the system I outlined could be manufactured for 600 to 650 dollars and sold for 499. Many of the components will scale down in price and will eventually make it profitable, meanwhile we know Sony makes a buttload of money off of early adopters so the initial losses will be made up for easily.
Honestly, if they gave PS1 / PS2 backwards.. (with option of buying all the games digital) then i'll be content, will then happily sub to PSNow and download PS3 games tbh.
Why in the blue hell are you bringing up the 2019 delay rumor anyways? Were you bored and decided you wanted something to argue about?
Also, the fuck are you talking about? The RERAM in my post is a cache between the SSD and RAM. Where are you getting a split memory pool from? The OS running from it has nothing to do with games drawing solely from the RAM, and the RAM gets fed by the ReRam.
l got a stupid question. Microsoft has patented VRS (might be mixing up things?) but PS5 might/will have it as well?
you care way too much about the "2019 PS5", that thing was cancelled back in 2017, they had enough time to develop a new APU.
also its not really a split pool because of the HBCC, it fixes a few of the major weaknesses of split pools.
Console wars. Alot of predictions here are going way overboard for a 499 pricepoint. A 13tf rdna2 GPU isn't much more unlikely than a 12tf gpu is though.
That's... putting it incorrectly. Both were flawed for different reasons, and the second less about having a split memory pool but the amount of eSRAM was too small.
Also it doesn't take in context that HBCC is now available.
patenting one solution for VRS doesnt mean the competition cant use another solution, like how MS arent limited to using HDDs because PS5 has a "patented SSD"
AMD have their own patents for VRS that sony can use in their GPU.
Xbox
CPU zen2 3.6GHz
GPU RDNA2 12.00 TFlops
16GB GDDR6
SSD nvme 1TB + 4GB DDR
- advanced boost mode for (late) xbone titles
- NO hdmi in / NO IR blaster
499
PS5
CPU zen2 3.2GHz
GPU RDNA2 13.00 TFlops
8 GB HBM2 + 8GB DDR4
SSD custom 1TB
- DS5 advanced capabilities
499
CPU zen2 3.6GHz
GPU RDNA2 12.00 TFlops
16GB GDDR6
SSD nvme 1TB + 4GB DDR
- advanced boost mode for (late) xbone titles
- NO hdmi in / NO IR blaster
499
PS5
CPU zen2 3.2GHz
GPU RDNA2 13.00 TFlops
8 GB HBM2 + 8GB DDR4
SSD custom 1TB
- DS5 advanced capabilities
499
yes, much like how Sony doesn't have Direct X but have a pretty excellent alternative. (GNM)
It's their own implementation that is patented, no the tech itself.
Also I think both MS and Sony with have their own I/O die, and Xbox most probably have DDR4 for OS/CPU functions. That worked well for PS4 (and 2GB DDR3 for PS4 Pro)
Think both systems will be similar and the biggest difference on the SoC is Sony's I/O die.
Think both systems will be similar and the biggest difference on the SoC is Sony's I/O die.
I doubt it, journos have already mentioned that a portion of the gddr6 is allotted to OS functions.
anyway if we are making predictions i guess i'll post mine:
Xbox Series X:
Zen 2 8c/16t 3.5GHz (10% faster)
Navi 10~12TF GPU (i am making a range for both just in case although it does seem like Series X is 12TF)
16GB GDDR6 (13GB available to devs)
1TB NVME SSD 2.4GB/s bandwidth
PS5:
Zen 2 8c/16t 3.2Ghz
Navi 10~12TF GPU
12GB HBM2E + 8GB DDR4 using HBCC to create a shared pool, 12GB HBME2 is VRAM, 4GB DDR4 for the OS, rest 4GB is the CPU memory but can also be allocated to the GPU in case more slower memory is needed (1GB less of fast ram for devs, but generally 3GB more are accessible, not sure how much faster will HBM be than GDDR6 though).
1TB NVME SSD 6GB/s bandwidth (combining the patents with the recent article where baidu modified an SSD and their results, i feel like 6GB/s is possible)
i am very unsure of the GPU though as we are hearing conflicting reports, but personally i really dont see 13TF RDNA in either box, 12TF is already insane for me.
Xbox Series X:
Zen 2 8c/16t 3.5GHz (10% faster)
Navi 10~12TF GPU (i am making a range for both just in case although it does seem like Series X is 12TF)
16GB GDDR6 (13GB available to devs)
1TB NVME SSD 2.4GB/s bandwidth
PS5:
Zen 2 8c/16t 3.2Ghz
Navi 10~12TF GPU
12GB HBM2E + 8GB DDR4 using HBCC to create a shared pool, 12GB HBME2 is VRAM, 4GB DDR4 for the OS, rest 4GB is the CPU memory but can also be allocated to the GPU in case more slower memory is needed (1GB less of fast ram for devs, but generally 3GB more are accessible, not sure how much faster will HBM be than GDDR6 though).
1TB NVME SSD 6GB/s bandwidth (combining the patents with the recent article where baidu modified an SSD and their results, i feel like 6GB/s is possible)
i am very unsure of the GPU though as we are hearing conflicting reports, but personally i really dont see 13TF RDNA in either box, 12TF is already insane for me.
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