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M3rcy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
702
Teraflops were always a horrible power metric. They're used for PR purposes because they're the biggest number available since they're just theoretical maximums. That doesn't tell you anything about what actual utilization looks like, and just as importantly, it doesn't tell you anything about the efficiency of the computation being done. Doing a bunch of math and later discarding the results shouldn't be cause for envy by anyone, but it all folds in under that nice, simple, quotable top line number. Sure, they can give you some rough idea of how two chips with an otherwise identical architecture might perform. Otherwise, they're marketing nonsense designed to grab headlines rather than inform.

Trying to convert TF numbers between architectures, even between iterations within an architectural family, is utter folly. Any engineer who got information from a console vendor quoting theoretical maximums after multiplied by some arbitrary conversion factor to make them look better would just shake her head in wonder at the stupidity of it all and look for something more meaningful. The theoretical maximum is still the theoretical maximum. It doesn't change. 12TF GCN is actually equivalent to 12TF RDNA for the purpose it was intended to measure in the first place.

What changes is how efficiently a given piece of code is going to run, and there's no fixed multiplier available that will hold true for all code. Each stage in each rendering pipeline will need to be re-evaluated to see whether decisions made because they were the fastest approach still hold true, and once you've started changing on GCN hardware compared to RDNA hardware, it becomes even less clear how to describe the relative difference in results. Yet that's all that really matters: results. What you can get on the screen in the 16 or 33ms you have to render a frame. Nobody can boil that down to "2x the power!" and have that statement hold water across a wide range of experiences.

... and yet that's what the market wants to hear. So you get cherry-picked numbers that show the best case, or the maximum theoretical, or some other nonsense. Don't worry about it. Most of us aren't going to have the time and background required to become experts and come to meaningful conclusions from marketing specs alone. Focus on the gaming experiences they enable, because then you can judge for yourself what's worth your hard earned dollars.

Yes!
 

Gemüsepizza

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,541
If you think about it, the whole TF fuckery is really tricky for PR.

- The first company to reveal their console has to decide if the they use RDNA TF or adjusted GCN TF.

- If they use RDNA TF, the other company could just announce their console with GCN TF (which would be higher obviously)

- To criticism from hardcore gamers they could easily reply something like that they were just trying to make it easier to compare with the previous gen

- And because there is no "official" multiplier, they could always muddy the water by saying "our custom design is more efficient"

So maybe the first company to announce should also use GCN equivalent TF to avoid this?
 

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
It is highly likely. ResetEra insider AegonSnake cracked this code days ago.

I never said Pascal. It was terascale tflops.
Tom Warren is clearly talking about TeraScale tflops.


Sony's first PS5 devkits also used pre-GCN GPUs because everyone had bought Vega GPUs to mine bitcoins. it's the only explanation for a 13 tflops GPU. It must be 13 Terascale tflops.
 

Outrun

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,783
Teraflops were always a horrible power metric. They're used for PR purposes because they're the biggest number available since they're just theoretical maximums. That doesn't tell you anything about what actual utilization looks like, and just as importantly, it doesn't tell you anything about the efficiency of the computation being done. Doing a bunch of math and later discarding the results shouldn't be cause for envy by anyone, but it all folds in under that nice, simple, quotable top line number. Sure, they can give you some rough idea of how two chips with an otherwise identical architecture might perform. Otherwise, they're marketing nonsense designed to grab headlines rather than inform.

Trying to convert TF numbers between architectures, even between iterations within an architectural family, is utter folly. Any engineer who got information from a console vendor quoting theoretical maximums after multiplied by some arbitrary conversion factor to make them look better would just shake her head in wonder at the stupidity of it all and look for something more meaningful. The theoretical maximum is still the theoretical maximum. It doesn't change. 12TF GCN is actually equivalent to 12TF RDNA for the purpose it was intended to measure in the first place.

What changes is how efficiently a given piece of code is going to run, and there's no fixed multiplier available that will hold true for all code. Each stage in each rendering pipeline will need to be re-evaluated to see whether decisions made because they were the fastest approach still hold true, and once you've started changing on GCN hardware compared to RDNA hardware, it becomes even less clear how to describe the relative difference in results. Yet that's all that really matters: results. What you can get on the screen in the 16 or 33ms you have to render a frame. Nobody can boil that down to "2x the power!" and have that statement hold water across a wide range of experiences.

... and yet that's what the market wants to hear. So you get cherry-picked numbers that show the best case, or the maximum theoretical, or some other nonsense. Don't worry about it. Most of us aren't going to have the time and background required to become experts and come to meaningful conclusions from marketing specs alone. Focus on the gaming experiences they enable, because then you can judge for yourself what's worth your hard earned dollars.

Agreed.

That is why I am happy that Phil Spencer has repeatedly talked about creating a balanced console in the Scarlett.
 

Deleted member 1589

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,576
Have we seen this yet? Really fits what was said in the Gizmodo leak. So maybe both consoles does handle ray tracing differently?

A second image sent by the tipster is even less legible and resembles a large black blob. The tipster said it was a photo processed with reduced color depth and resolution to remove reflections. The resulting file is another tiny gif. The tipster advised adjusting the brightness or gamma of the image. Doing so reveals a terribly pixelated image. The words "PROTOTYPE 1 NOT FOR SALE" are visible. Below that, there appears to be a small LED labeled "STATUS 2." Directly beside it are three buttons or knobs. The first is labeled "STANDBY." The labeling for the other two buttons or knobs is less legible. The one beside "STANDBY" starts with "RE." So it possibly says "RESET" or "RECORD." The third starts with an "EJE" and likely, spells "EJECT." Directly below this grouping of three is what appears to be a slot for a DVD or Blu-ray.

ch9zg7cdrjt31.jpg
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
I'm just going to remind people that there was quite a reaction after Reiner came out and said the PS5 was more powerful.

I wont be surprised if the speculation thread is made into one because it's easier for mods to contain the insanity into one virtual sanitorium.

It was surprising because it was a detour of the companies previous recent trajectories.

For me, if both are targeted the same rrp, the differences can't be big, because they both have the same technologies available to them, even if they go with different ram technologies the gpu and cpu will be the same. This gen has taught us there is no secret sauce, and the differencees that esram vs gddr5 caused this gen are not on the table this time.
So it really comes down to CU count and clock speed, if the SoC shown at the Scarlett reveal was genuine then we are looking between 40 and 44 active cu's. Which will mean extremely high clocks if the info about the next gens being above 10.2 and 10.7 is true. There is also a chance that scarlett motherboard was fake and had an 1x SoC on it.
 

Lady Gaia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,483
Seattle
So what's after TERAFLOPS?

Oh, they'll pick something equally arbitrary to play into the market's obsession with boiling everything down to a simple number. We measure our CPUs in GHz, our cameras in megapixels, and restaurants in numbers of stars. We do seem to outgrow our meaningless measures in consoles with some regularity, though. Bits. Number of colors. Megahertz. Millions of polygons. Teraflops. They'll pick something equally meaningless that looks good in a supposedly technical review. Ray intersection tests? Something.

Ignore the bait, or at least try to look beyond the numbers a little and demand examples of what it means in real terms. Learn to appreciate the difference between various lighting model approximations, or otherwise how the artistry of it all becomes an engrossing interactive experience instead of pre-packaged bragging rights.
 

SeanMN

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,187
If you think about it, the whole TF fuckery is really tricky for PR.
- The first company to reveal their console has to decide if the they use RDNA TF or adjusted GCN TF.
I don't think so. There won't be any GCN adjusted TF in any marketing. We'll either get actual TF numbers, or we'll get performance multipliers.
- If they use RDNA TF, the other company could just announce their console with GCN TF (which would be higher obviously)
No (see comment above). But what they could do is use their multiplier to imply higher performance. Example: Xbox is 12TF, PS5 is 3x more powerful than PS4 Pro.
- To criticism from hardcore gamers they could easily reply something like that they were just trying to make it easier to compare with the previous gen
- And because there is no "official" multiplier, they could always muddy the water by saying "our custom design is more efficient"
So maybe the first company to announce should also use GCN equivalent TF to avoid this?
I just don't think either company will reference GCN TF. A multiplier of current gen, which has already been apply by MS onto their CPU and SSD, will be used if they don't provide specific details.
 

VX1

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,001
Europe
If you think about it, the whole TF fuckery is really tricky for PR.

- The first company to reveal their console has to decide if the they use RDNA TF or adjusted GCN TF.

- If they use RDNA TF, the other company could just announce their console with GCN TF (which would be higher obviously)

- To criticism from hardcore gamers they could easily reply something like that they were just trying to make it easier to compare with the previous gen

- And because there is no "official" multiplier, they could always muddy the water by saying "our custom design is more efficient"

So maybe the first company to announce should also use GCN equivalent TF to avoid this?
What if,for example,Sony decides to just say "x6 more powerful then PS4 (x3 more powerful then Pro)" without giving any concrete GPU TF number...?
 

Andromeda

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,856
The other thing I'm surprised is, we are getting these specs because MS just presented to a bunch of new people.

Why aren't we getting anything about the PS5 when devkits are in the wild to a lot of devs?

edit: or rather annoyed than surprised...
Because MS are giving the information to people and tell them to disclose it to the public.
 

marecki

Member
Aug 2, 2018
251
Teraflops were always a horrible power metric. They're used for PR purposes because they're the biggest number available since they're just theoretical maximums. That doesn't tell you anything about what actual utilization looks like, and just as importantly, it doesn't tell you anything about the efficiency of the computation being done. Doing a bunch of math and later discarding the results shouldn't be cause for envy by anyone, but it all folds in under that nice, simple, quotable top line number. Sure, they can give you some rough idea of how two chips with an otherwise identical architecture might perform. Otherwise, they're marketing nonsense designed to grab headlines rather than inform.

Trying to convert TF numbers between architectures, even between iterations within an architectural family, is utter folly. Any engineer who got information from a console vendor quoting theoretical maximums after multiplied by some arbitrary conversion factor to make them look better would just shake her head in wonder at the stupidity of it all and look for something more meaningful. The theoretical maximum is still the theoretical maximum. It doesn't change. 12TF GCN is actually equivalent to 12TF RDNA for the purpose it was intended to measure in the first place.

What changes is how efficiently a given piece of code is going to run, and there's no fixed multiplier available that will hold true for all code. Each stage in each rendering pipeline will need to be re-evaluated to see whether decisions made because they were the fastest approach still hold true, and once you've started changing on GCN hardware compared to RDNA hardware, it becomes even less clear how to describe the relative difference in results. Yet that's all that really matters: results. What you can get on the screen in the 16 or 33ms you have to render a frame. Nobody can boil that down to "2x the power!" and have that statement hold water across a wide range of experiences.

... and yet that's what the market wants to hear. So you get cherry-picked numbers that show the best case, or the maximum theoretical, or some other nonsense. Don't worry about it. Most of us aren't going to have the time and background required to become experts and come to meaningful conclusions from marketing specs alone. Focus on the gaming experiences they enable, because then you can judge for yourself what's worth your hard earned dollars.
That's very informative, thank you! I'm stoked for next gen and like you say, the proof will be in the pudding, cannot wait to see what developers bring to the table with such incredible hardware all around.
 

Deleted member 2379

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,739

Gemüsepizza

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,541
I don't think so. There won't be any GCN adjusted TF in any marketing. We'll either get actual TF numbers, or we'll get performance multipliers.

No (see comment above). But what they could do is use their multiplier to imply higher performance. Example: Xbox is 12TF, PS5 is 3x more powerful than PS4 Pro.

I just don't think either company will reference GCN TF. A multiplier of current gen, which has already been apply by MS onto their CPU and SSD, will be used if they don't provide specific details.

Well, Albert Penello seems to think that they could possibly use GCN adjusted TF:


What if,for example,Sony decides to just say "x6 more powerful then PS4 (x3 more powerful then Pro)" without giving any concrete GPU TF number...?

Possible, but then some might say "they don't reveal the numbers because they have weaker specs!!1". But maybe they use this method during reveal, and then later offer full specs near launch.
 

More Butter

Banned
Jun 12, 2018
1,890
The problem with the FLOPGATE theory is the fact that Lockhart is being reported as a 4tf console in the same story. Why would Anaconda be old flops and Lockhart new flops. Do people believe that Lockhart is 4 old GCN troops? I suppose it's possible but doesn't see likely. Seems like some folks are reaching here.
 

Dokkaebi G0SU

Member
Nov 2, 2017
5,922
Oh, they'll pick something equally arbitrary to play into the market's obsession with boiling everything down to a simple number. We measure our CPUs in GHz, our cameras in megapixels, and restaurants in numbers of stars. We do seem to outgrow our meaningless measures in consoles with some regularity, though. Bits. Number of colors. Megahertz. Millions of polygons. Teraflops. They'll pick something equally meaningless that looks good in a supposedly technical review. Ray intersection tests? Something.

Ignore the bait, or at least try to look beyond the numbers a little and demand examples of what it means in real terms. Learn to appreciate the difference between various lighting model approximations, or otherwise how the artistry of it all becomes an engrossing interactive experience instead of pre-packaged bragging rights.

:(
i guess im so used to filter/sort when looking at almost everything i consume that i use that type of thinking when i want to view these machines (somewhat)
It's like when i look at receivers for surround sound or speakers, speaker wires and etc. there is something overall to make the process more easier and "convenient" for us. That's just one example of our consumer habits.

i understand there are way more important things than just a TF number, but it does tell us the potential, no?

I guess, what is something that would stick out to let me know the potential/capabilities. Simliar to TV's and their easy notion to tell us it's resolution/hrz/panel type.

idk if i am making sense lol
 

Deleted member 1589

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,576

VX1

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,001
Europe
Possible, but then some might say "they don't reveal the numbers because they have weaker specs!!1". But maybe they use this method during reveal, and then later offer full specs near launch.

I don't follow them much, but isn't that what Apple is doing with it's iOS gadgets for years now on their press events? They rarely mention full specs.
I remember when Andrew House was still head of PS he publicly admired Apple's approach and product release strategy.
 

More Butter

Banned
Jun 12, 2018
1,890
If one company decides to play with the numbers to make for a higher count than they will and should be ridiculed. Just be honest about your box.
 

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
I don't think so. There won't be any GCN adjusted TF in any marketing. We'll either get actual TF numbers, or we'll get performance multipliers.

No (see comment above). But what they could do is use their multiplier to imply higher performance. Example: Xbox is 12TF, PS5 is 3x more powerful than PS4 Pro.

I just don't think either company will reference GCN TF. A multiplier of current gen, which has already been apply by MS onto their CPU and SSD, will be used if they don't provide specific details.
yep. MS didnt bother giving away the clock speeds of the cpu, the tflops count of the gpu and the type of ram at the xone reveal.

whoever, be it sony or ms, loses the tflops war, or cpu clock war or bandwidth war, will simply not mention them.

xbox-720-hardware-ports.jpg


Sony just released this in their pdf.

ps4-specs.jpg


I dont think you've been banned yet right? i think i've been banned twice so far? hmmm
i get banned every few weeks. mostly for making stupid jokes about console wars.

i am pretty sure im a ban away from a perma because of previous infractions.

remember me.
 

Gemüsepizza

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,541
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
Oh, they'll pick something equally arbitrary to play into the market's obsession with boiling everything down to a simple number. We measure our CPUs in GHz, our cameras in megapixels, and restaurants in numbers of stars. We do seem to outgrow our meaningless measures in consoles with some regularity, though. Bits. Number of colors. Megahertz. Millions of polygons. Teraflops. They'll pick something equally meaningless that looks good in a supposedly technical review. Ray intersection tests? Something.

Ignore the bait, or at least try to look beyond the numbers a little and demand examples of what it means in real terms. Learn to appreciate the difference between various lighting model approximations, or otherwise how the artistry of it all becomes an engrossing interactive experience instead of pre-packaged bragging rights.

One thing both Sony and ms have learnt regarding consoles, is that lies or bulloni will hurt them, u can't fool gamers.
 

Deleted member 56995

User requested account closure
Banned
May 24, 2019
817
I'm sure neither consoles will use GCN FLOPS for fear of a false advertising lawsuit. The ways FLOPS work, there is no linear conversion between architectures, and as mentioned last page, the operations that FLOPS actually quantify are equal across architectures. So even though there may be a real-world difference across performance/FLOPS across architectures, neither MS nor Sony can use GCN FLOPS as a measure of performance.
 
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