Raftina

Member
Jun 27, 2020
3,835
thedriven.io

Nearly all major car companies are sabotaging EV transition, and Japan is worst, study finds

Damning new report finds nearly all major car companies are actively sabotaging world's efforts to avoid catastrophic global warming, and Japan companies are the worst.

Titled Automakers and Climate Policy Advocacy, the report provides analysis on the anti-EV lobbying activities of 15 of the world's largest automakers in seven key regions around the world. The study uses industry-standard data from S&P Global Mobility on automakers' forecast electric vehicle production.

In addition to scoring automakers on their climate policy sabotage, InfluenceMap also found the industry's own EV production forecasts fail to meet the IEA's (International Energy Agency) updated 1.5°C scenario of 66% EV market share by 2030.

The report says Japanese automakers are the least prepared for the EV transition and have the most active, strategic engagement against it.

"An analysis of climate policy advocacy in seven key regions (Australia, EU, India, Japan, South Korea, UK and the US) finds that auto associations are leading efforts to delay and weaken key climate rules for light-duty vehicles."

"In the US, the Alliance for Automotive Innovation has led opposition to ambitious fuel economy (CAFE) and GHG emissions standards, while in Australia, the Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries (FCAI) led a strategic campaign to weaken fuel efficiency standards."
 

Laephis

Member
Jun 25, 2021
2,721
Those of us following the industry closely have seen this coming a mile away. And the propaganda from companies like Toyota has been effective enough that plenty of Era members have even started repeating it. Why lead an effort to change when profits so firmly favor the status quo?
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,551
If (size of if tbc) the uk and eu keep to the planned escalator for fossil fuel penalties if manufacturers don't increase ev sales over the next ten years towards the deadline to stop fossil sales, then manufactures will rapidly fall in line, at least in those markets. either increasing ev sales or decreasing /disincentivising fossil sales

Japan honestly is fucked - no government interest, manufacturing seemingly ok with domestic production and not that interested in engaging - they risk imploding their own vehicle production capabilities just as they previously had such a large impact on western production 30-40 years ago
 

Henry Jones Jr

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
1,783
Yeah I've been very bummed by how slow Honda has been to get into the EV market. I really wanted my next car to be a Civic EV, but maybe I'll settle for a Civic hybrid.
 

Valus

Member
Nov 21, 2017
1,092
I will admit I'm pretty ignorant on this stuff. What is the Toyota propaganda?

I remember reading something to the tune of the emissions to farm what we need to make the batteries are far worse than what we use to fuel current vehicles, not to mention poor working conditions for those in 3rd world countries. Is any of that stuff true?
 

Desi

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,224
this is even more of a common thing with the constant lithium battery push when sodium batteries are available and hold up better to abuse minus some range.
 

Macam

Member
Nov 8, 2018
1,639
I remember reading something to the tune of the emissions to farm what we need to make the batteries are far worse than what we use to fuel current vehicles, not to mention poor working conditions for those in 3rd world countries. Is any of that stuff true?

Depends on the battery, since different materials are sourced from different places under different conditions (eg, lithium vs cobalt), but the poor working conditions are not unique to EV batteries in particular (eg, mobile phones).

Also, it's a little rich for anti-union car companies trying to harp on poor working conditions, with the caveat that "3rd world" countries labor conditions are different and worse than developed countries' conditions, but the broader theme rings hollow.
 

RomanticHeroX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,979
All the Toyota propaganda in the world doesn't change the fact that there isn't infrastructure to support EVs for renters in the US. Hold their feet to the fire for continuing to push needlessly huge trucks and SUVs but there's lots of things that need to be addressed before there can be a wider EV transition.
 

Thordinson

Banned
Aug 1, 2018
18,592
All the Toyota propaganda in the world doesn't change the fact that there isn't infrastructure to support EVs for renters in the US. Hold their feet to the fire for continuing to push needlessly huge trucks and SUVs but there's lots of things that need to be addressed before there can be a wider EV transition.

I'm kinda surprised at how much better it's getting around me. There are several chain grocery stores that have EV chargers in the parking lots. Granted, it's nowhere near enough but it's growing.

I think the problem is no one wants to invest in the infrastructure if the cars aren't being sold.
 

nitewulf

Member
Nov 29, 2017
7,299
All the Toyota propaganda in the world doesn't change the fact that there isn't infrastructure to support EVs for renters in the US. Hold their feet to the fire for continuing to push needlessly huge trucks and SUVs but there's lots of things that need to be addressed before there can be a wider EV transition.
But that's also a chicken and egg thing- both should be strategically pushed to increase adoption.
 

Noctis149

Member
May 14, 2024
16
IMO the biggest problem has been EV car prices. It's really been tiring to see most EV launches the past few years be 40k + cars. But that is soon changing, the new Renault 5 is launching in September at 25k euro and more reasonably priced EVs are to follow. Infrastructure has also improved vastly in the past 2 years even in my country that was late to begin working on it. Still the EU goal for zero emission vehicles by 2035 might be a tad optimistic.
 

opticalmace

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,065
Is it the auto manufacturers trying to preserve profits? Or more driven by oil lobbyists etc? Read the article but not clear on the root cause.

A shame, we have one EV and love it.
 

alr1ght

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,175
I will admit I'm pretty ignorant on this stuff. What is the Toyota propaganda?

I remember reading something to the tune of the emissions to farm what we need to make the batteries are far worse than what we use to fuel current vehicles, not to mention poor working conditions for those in 3rd world countries. Is any of that stuff true?
Generally takes a few years for EVs to cross the threshold into becoming greener than ICE vehicles in the long run.

Here's a video breaking down a Rivian truck vs ICE F-150
youtu.be

When will a Electric Truck *actually* become "Green"?

Today we talk about how dirty electric trucks are for the environment... Try out Huel for yourself here: http://jlinks.io/jerryrigeverythingsept22 Huge thank...
 

beat

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,788
Regular reminder that cars are still an environmental problem even if they're electrified, compared to biking, transit, walking, or even micromobility.

"But it would take an immense infrastructure upgrade to move away from cars!", say people who also advocate for a massive infrastructure upgrade to support electric cars.

(Also, suburban sprawl is not only bad for the environment but literally financially unsustainable; the tax revenue for suburban single family homes is so low it cannot even meet the amortized maintenance those neighborhoods need.)
 

Cipherr

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,539
But that's also a chicken and egg thing- both should be strategically pushed to increase adoption.

I dont know how we get there when half of our government seems to want to sabotage it, the other half is nearly indifferent at best and all of the car companies are in cahoots to slow its progress. Even the CEO of one of the biggest and most successful EV companies is a complete and utter ghoul.

Worst timeline.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,481
Regular reminder that cars are still an environmental problem even if they're electrified, compared to biking, transit, walking, or even micromobility.

"But it would take an immense infrastructure upgrade to move away from cars!", say people who also advocate for a massive infrastructure upgrade to support electric cars.

(Also, suburban sprawl is not only bad for the environment but literally financially unsustainable; the tax revenue for suburban single family homes is so low it cannot even meet the amortized maintenance those neighborhoods need.)

I think as long as we acknowledge that EVs (and hybrids) are still the required solution for much of the population (since the suburbs already exist and can't be removed), then I am all for pumping giant funds into urban densification and mass transit plans.
 
OP
OP
Raftina

Raftina

Member
Jun 27, 2020
3,835
I will admit I'm pretty ignorant on this stuff. What is the Toyota propaganda?

I remember reading something to the tune of the emissions to farm what we need to make the batteries are far worse than what we use to fuel current vehicles, not to mention poor working conditions for those in 3rd world countries. Is any of that stuff true?
There are several. And they generally use the same approach: Identify a problem that is true in concept but exaggerating or misrepresenting its effect. I will list some common ones.

1. Hybrids or battery EVs (BEVs)
The idea is to push for hybrid vehicles instead of BEVs. Hybrids are gasoline or diesel vehicles that have tiny batteries (1 - 2 kWhs) that power a weak electric motor to assist the internal combustion engine (ICE), which gives them better fuel economy than ICEs.

The propaganda is that you can make many more hybrids--which reduce emissions compared to ICEs--if only you stopped using so much resources on BEVs. There are several problems with this claim.

a. Exaggerated ratios
BEVs were ~13% of all vehicles sold in 2023. Plug-in hybrids (PHEVs) make up another 5%. Toyota claims that if only we stopped making BEVs, the materials can be used in batteries of 100 times as many hybrids. Of course, if you multiply 13% by 100, you get 1300%, or 13 times the total number of vehicles sold in the world. We are not going to get 100 times as many hybrids as the number of BEVs we do not build if we stopped BEV production. We are capped at 8 times, because we do not buy that many vehicles. And we actually have more EV battery production capacity than we use in BEVs currently, so by battery capacity, the ratio is going to be even lower than 8.

b. Timeline
Suppose we stopped BEV production and made batteries available to Toyota for hybrids. Toyota is not going to rush out and change their entire lineup to hybrids. They will squeeze the planned life out of their current model designs (~5 - 6 years), and then maybe they will retool their factories for hybrids, and that is if the production lines have reached end of life--as opposed to using the older production lines for cheaper vehicles to be exported to emerging markets. We know they will do this because that is how corporate planning works, and that is how Toyota is actually approaching their hybrid transition--despite significant battery production capacity that can be absorbed by BEVs, and despite that Toyota found success with hybrids 15 years ago with the Prius.

2. Time to recoup manufacturing emissions
The propaganda concept is that because BEVs emit more greenhouse gas during production, it takes too long for BEVs to be better for the environment.

There have been studies on the payback time. If we assume the worst case scenario (an all coal electric grid, the dirtiest electricity possible), the payback time is around 75,000 miles, which most passenger vehicles reach. In reality, there is no grid that is all coal. The payback time is in the range of 30,000 - 60,000 miles, typically within a few years.

3. Hydrogen vehicles
The propaganda concept is that we should be investing in other zero-emission vehicle types to cover all angles. Hydrogen is extremely expensive to produce and distribute.

As we get more renewables, hydrogen electrolysis becomes increasingly feasible as a method to absorb excess electricity production from renewable grids. But that does nothing for storage and distribution, which remain expensive and difficult. I was in lab that was researching hydrogen adsorption to avoid high-pressure and/or cold temperature storage for hydrogen 20 years ago. That did not work out. Fast forward to today, and we are still using high pressure storage as the main hydrogen storage method.

4. Slave labor
The propaganda concept is to point out that a significant amount of cobalt used in lithium batteries is mined in the Congo using slave labor.

There are 2 major lithium battery chemistries used in EVs: lithium nickel-manganese-cobalt (NMC) and lithium iron phosphate (LFP). LFP batteries do not use cobalt, so they avoid the slave labor problem. LFP batteries are around 1/3 of all EV batteries and are taking an increasing share. Automakers are motivated to use them, because they are cheaper than NMC batteries. Moreover, the relative costs of LFP and NMC batteries means that consumers who are shopping for affordable vehicles are less likely to buy something that relies on slave labor (which is highly unusual, because cheaper products are usually associated with worse labor conditions).
 

Veliladon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,578
I support BEVs in general but one of the things that's really annoying is that they didn't have vehicle to grid sorted out before the major push for BEVs. Having 100+kWh of batteries locked up in the chassis without being able to use them to help the solar duck curve (or solar canyon in some areas) or even battery backing up houses seems short sighted to say the least. Especially given that BEVs have massive inverters in them to drive the motors.

Because I totally want to do that with my next electric car but the tech isn't there yet.
 

PBalfredo

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,520
But why though? I understand oil companies opposing EVs because they sell oil for ICE vehicles. But car manufactures are still selling cars either way.

If anything, I would think it would be a new think to sell consumers on. Upgrade your old ICE and hybrid cars with a brand new EV today!

So why do they give a fuck about opposing EVs? Are they just staffed by Captain Planet villains?
 

Becks'

Member
Dec 7, 2017
7,782
Canada
B5-lDJWCUAAwfya.jpg
 

Coolness

Member
Oct 27, 2017
385
SoCal
It's one thing to not invest in transitioning your fleet, but is another to actively stymie any progress in the industry. It's also unfortunate that the one company making 100% EV is on shaky ground. Tesla's CEO is actively sabotaging the company for a payout.
 

Laephis

Member
Jun 25, 2021
2,721
Is it the auto manufacturers trying to preserve profits? Or more driven by oil lobbyists etc? Read the article but not clear on the root cause.

A shame, we have one EV and love it.
A company like Honda makes lots of money from selling their combustion engines to all sorts of industries and applications. They are very established. It's against their interests to move away from that and basically "start over" with electric motors.
 

smurfx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,709
A company like Honda makes lots of money from selling their combustion engines to all sorts of industries and applications. They are very established. It's against their interests to move away from that and basically "start over" with electric motors.
those industries using those engines also likely don't want to move to electric because its not as efficient. like long haul trucks. electric is nowhere near ready to support that industry.
 

Mg.

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,025
BMW is sort of interesting (or odd) in this regard

Aside from Tesla, only Mercedes and BMW have EV production forecasts that align with the IEA's updated 1.5°C scenario which requires 66% of all new car sales to be EVs by 2030.

The CEO of BMW has repeatedly said, even recently, that he urges the EU to rethink their 2030/2035 ban on new ICE car sales. Yet, by 2030 pretty much every model they offer will be available as an EV - either exclusively or as a variant next to ICE. This includes MINI and Rolls-Royce as well afaik. The M division is also transitioning into PHEV now.

Wouldn't surprise me if BMW too were somehow sabotaging the transition to EV behind the screens tbh.
 

oofouchugh

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,084
Night City
1. Hybrids or battery EVs (BEVs)
The idea is to push for hybrid vehicles instead of BEVs. Hybrids are gasoline or diesel vehicles that have tiny batteries (1 - 2 kWhs) that power a weak electric motor to assist the internal combustion engine (ICE), which gives them better fuel economy than ICEs.

The propaganda is that you can make many more hybrids--which reduce emissions compared to ICEs--if only you stopped using so much resources on BEVs. There are several problems with this claim.

I thought the deal with pushing hybrids is that they can lean on the fact that charging an EV in the States is a complete nightmare that you don't have to deal with if you have a hybrid? I'm eyeing getting an EV at some point as a commuter vehicle, but also my commute is like a 15 minute drive because I pay out the ass for rent to live near work and I have a garage where I can plug my car in overnight which is something I didn't have in pretty much every other place I lived.
 

elty

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,970
But why though? I understand oil companies opposing EVs because they sell oil for ICE vehicles. But car manufactures are still selling cars either way.

If anything, I would think it would be a new think to sell consumers on. Upgrade your old ICE and hybrid cars with a brand new EV today!

So why do they give a fuck about opposing EVs? Are they just staffed by Captain Planet villains?

You are asking CEO to choose between:

A. Invest huge amount of capital in research and production, where Tesla and BYD has a 10 years head start with full vertical integration.
B. Spend some lobbying money to ban competition and drag out the transition as much as possible to maximize short term profit.

For politicians, a choice between an election this year or catastrophic climate change a decade or two later. They will be long dead to face the consequences.
 
OP
OP
Raftina

Raftina

Member
Jun 27, 2020
3,835
I thought the deal with pushing hybrids is that they can lean on the fact that charging an EV in the States is a complete nightmare that you don't have to deal with if you have a hybrid? I'm eyeing getting an EV at some point as a commuter vehicle, but also my commute is like a 15 minute drive because I pay out the ass for rent to live near work and I have a garage where I can plug my car in overnight which is something I didn't have in pretty much every other place I lived.
That is one of the talking points as well. Though it is something that each individual can decide based on their own circumstances.

In your situation, you might consider a PHEV (plug-in hybrids). Those have a modest sized battery that is generally designed to be able to handle daily commute distances. You can charge them overnight daily and run on electricity for most of the time. When you need to drive for longer distances, the PHEV would function similar to a hybrid (though generally heavier). It would also mean that if you move to a place without easy access to chargers in the parking area, you can just drive it as a hybrid (more fuel efficient than ICEs).
 

Peru

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,241
Which is why tesla dominates here in Norway where almost all new private car sales are electric, while wait lists for other brands have been nightmarish long you could just pick up a Tesla
 

AlteredBeast

Don't Watch the Tape!
Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,800
It's plain to see why:

With EVs, you eliminate or drastically reduce:

1. Convenience store/gas station usage since you can charge at home.
2. Dealer-based services since you don't need fluid changes/oil changes/brake pad replacements/etc.
3. Mechanics etc for the same reason
4. Municipalities and state tax receipts since they will no longer be able to collect massive gas taxes.
5. Big oil revenue who did not diversify and will be left with millions of fewer customers.

The people who thought this would be an easy transition were fooling themselves.
 

behOemoth

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,907
Those of us following the industry closely have seen this coming a mile away. And the propaganda from companies like Toyota has been effective enough that plenty of Era members have even started repeating it. Why lead an effort to change when profits so firmly favor the status quo?
True,

However, I woukd have not thought that a study can claim Japan is worse than Germany.

Which is why tesla dominates here in Norway where almost all new private car sales are electric, while wait lists for other brands have been nightmarish long you could just pick up a Tesla
It's funny as Norway made the Nissan leaf a huge hit.
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,551
All the Toyota propaganda in the world doesn't change the fact that there isn't infrastructure to support EVs for renters in the US. Hold their feet to the fire for continuing to push needlessly huge trucks and SUVs but there's lots of things that need to be addressed before there can be a wider EV transition.

there is 15 years before all new cars in EU (and I think Califonia is the same date) have to be EV. Thats *new* cars. There will still be used gas cars for probably 20 more years until they naturally get to end of life or a scrappage scheme is pushed for older ones.

Thats plenty of time for infra to improve. Yes renters and those without dedicated on-site parking need more attention than those that can park at home right now, and ideally more movement than we're seeing so far, but there is time.

But manufacturers need to be at least offering a reasonable percentage of their cars as EVs by now or they risk being left behind. Thats also ok - capitalism yay - but if they're *also* actively lobbying to delay/overturn this in many countries they can fuck right off frankly
 

oofouchugh

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,084
Night City
That is one of the talking points as well. Though it is something that each individual can decide based on their own circumstances.

In your situation, you might consider a PHEV (plug-in hybrids). Those have a modest sized battery that is generally designed to be able to handle daily commute distances. You can charge them overnight daily and run on electricity for most of the time. When you need to drive for longer distances, the PHEV would function similar to a hybrid (though generally heavier). It would also mean that if you move to a place without easy access to chargers in the parking area, you can just drive it as a hybrid (more fuel efficient than ICEs).

PHEV is also on the radar, but I live in a two vehicle household so as long as one of our cars is limited by public charging I'm totally fine with a full EV. I just want a damn affordable one and it feels like getting a used Tesla is the best option out there and it sucks.
 

MyDudeMango

Member
Jul 17, 2021
1,819
Canada
As always, you have to question who benefits the most from the anti-EV rhetoric and narratives spread around.

Oil and car companies sabotaging electric vehicles sounds like a movie/show cliche of old, but it's basically just the mundane reality of what happens.
 
Oct 30, 2017
1,730
I will admit I'm pretty ignorant on this stuff. What is the Toyota propaganda?

I remember reading something to the tune of the emissions to farm what we need to make the batteries are far worse than what we use to fuel current vehicles, not to mention poor working conditions for those in 3rd world countries. Is any of that stuff true?
This is literally bullshit.


Total lithium mined in 2022 (tons): 130,000 (Source - Page 113)

Total oil produced in 2023 (tons): ~1,676,400,000 (I've converted this from barrels to tons, it's actually 81,804,000 barrels PER DAY)



ALL of the mineral extraction in the world, for literally everything makes up 0.3% of global emissions.

Emissions from road transportation on the other hand makes up 10.85% of global emissions, and this is just from exhaust pipes. It doesn't account for an additional 11.7% of global emissions for oil production, transport and refining.

Listed here: https://climatetrace.org/sectors


It also ignores that the mining industry itself is rapidly electrifying:

You can already buy huge electric dump trucks: https://www.komatsu.com/en/products/trucks/electric-drive-mining-trucks/

Or an article about the general electrification of the sector: https://www.mining-technology.com/sponsored/what-is-driving-electrification-in-mining/
 
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MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,551
I will admit I'm pretty ignorant on this stuff. What is the Toyota propaganda?

I remember reading something to the tune of the emissions to farm what we need to make the batteries are far worse than what we use to fuel current vehicles, not to mention poor working conditions for those in 3rd world countries. Is any of that stuff true?

explained beautifully above but its classic FUD - new thing if its 'environmentally friendly' (be it EVs, solar panels, wind turbines) can only be made of morning dew and rainbows otherwise its the devil. Entirely ignoring the huge amount of environmental damage caused by the incumbent technologies because... well no reasons are ever given.
 

Wotkar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,269
I will admit I'm pretty ignorant on this stuff. What is the Toyota propaganda?

I remember reading something to the tune of the emissions to farm what we need to make the batteries are far worse than what we use to fuel current vehicles, not to mention poor working conditions for those in 3rd world countries. Is any of that stuff true?
resetera.gif
 

DongBeetle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,437
Any EV manufacturer focusing on premium class vehicles is sabotaging EV adoption. Literally killing the planet for larger profit margins
 
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Nov 3, 2017
952
Should add that the garbage spewed by Toyota is due to the billions of dollars they spent betting on hydrogen years and years ago and continued to in a "weirdly*" apparent sunk cost fallacious strategy (* buoyed by Oil and Gas giants like Shell and TotalEnergies). Literally attacking BEVs to protect their investments.
 
Oct 30, 2017
1,730
I will admit I'm pretty ignorant on this stuff. What is the Toyota propaganda?

I remember reading something to the tune of the emissions to farm what we need to make the batteries are far worse than what we use to fuel current vehicles, not to mention poor working conditions for those in 3rd world countries. Is any of that stuff true?
And regarding this point:

This discussion is mostly about one thing - artisan cobalt mining in Congo.


Let's get an overview of Cobalt at first:
cobalt.jpg



EV batteries made up 30% of the global cobalt supply 2022 (total supply is 183,000 tons according to IEA) - but it also makes up most of the demand growth.


Congo currently produces 68% of the global cobalt output, that's 130,000 out of 190,000 tons (2022 data - page 65)


That said, battery chemistries that have no cobalt at all are gaining market share, especially LFP-batteries (Lithium iron phosphate), due to the preference of chinese car companies. This chemistry reached a market share of 27% in 2022, it was only 6% in 2020 (source)



Now back to Congo - All that said, it's still true that the country has a very real real problem, as this surge in cobalt demand drives people into illegal mining:

"And while many work for established industrial mines and the large mining companies, many more work as artisanal miners, digging in informal pits alongside thousands in a cooperative without professional, large-scale equipment. Artisanal and small-scale mining are estimated to employ an estimated 200,000 people in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, and over a million more are indirectly involved through trade and transport."

abcnews.go.com

Artisanal cobalt mining swallowing city in Democratic Republic of the Congo, satellite imagery shows

Satellite imagery provided by Planet Labs shows the dramatic growth of copper and cobalt mines in and around the city of Kolwezi, in the Democratic Republic of the Congo.



So who to "blame" for this? Electric Vehicles?

To me, it's a multifaceted problem where you have a corrupt congolese government and their inability to enforce regulations, car manufacturers that don't ensure how their resources are actually mined and probably didn't care about this at all until it was reported on, then also China, because they seized ownership of 15 out of 19 congolese copper-cobalt concessions and of course historical colonialism that lead to the destabilization of the country in the long term.


So, unless Congo shuts down artisanal mining, your best bet is to hope that other battery chemistries are taking over faster - but that also means that Congo loses a potential market that's important in the future.
 
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