Codeblue

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,841
If you have a problem with the substance of my actual post -- that the GOP is a cult and Pelosi is mostly right that it would be better if the GOP were not a cult (this is what ... pretty much all of my post was about except for like the final 2 sentences which were a response to the post above mine) -- then reply to that substance. Instead, you took my response to someone who -- literally -- said "Pelosi is human garbage," and said I'm strawmanning that person. Nah, they said pelosi is human garbage. I don't think that Pelosi is garbage, and I think she's mostly right in this statement, and I think she's mostly right most of the time.

But, this whole discussion we've had is largely my fault. I've been on the internet long enough to learn that anybody who quotes you and uses the word "strawman" in the first reply is probably not really interested in discussing the content of a post, I shouldn't have even bothered replying to you because you want to play internet argument police. So that was my bad in mistaking that you're actually looking to discuss what Pelosi said and the validity of it -- which I'll state again, I think she's mostly right: THe GOP is a cult and it would be better for America if it weren't a cult.

Apologies if you were talking to one person in particular, but you didn't quote them. It earnestly read like you were reducing all criticism down to those words.

I did reply to that substance. The cult nature of the party recently is less of a problem than the white supremacist nature of the part that has been there for decades. Would it be better if they adhered to norms? Sure. Do we need political opposition and a multiparty system that is preferably a number greater than two? Yes. Do we need a strong Republican party? No.
 

LCGeek

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,917
I would say Pre-Goldwater (or specifically Pre-CRA/VRA) the GOP was at least somewhat respectable. It's been a long time for certain, but even in our lifetimes they at least did try to have some semblance of civility, a mountain load of it compared to Trump.

For accuracy purposes I can easily give you that.

I never saw trump as a republican he hijacked the process, it was necessary to win 3rd party candidates haven't won ever. We all have photos of him palling around with people from either side and the clintons. He's always been autocrat/tyrant and he just might show a lot of people how easy a democracy can fall apart.
 

xenocide

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,307
Vermont
Why would no other political parties exist?
There would be other political parties that cropped up with time, but it wouldn't work out the way many people are hoping--this notion of a "Moderate/Center Left and Left Wing party" would not work out the way people seem to think it would. In all likelihood we'd have a reborn GOP 4-6 years after their collapse that would be Center Right rather than Far Right, and they'd just restart the cycle they started under Goldwater.

For accuracy purposes I can easily give you that.

I never saw trump as a republican he hijacked the process, it was necessary to win 3rd party candidates haven't won ever. We all have photos of him palling around with people from either side and the clintons. He's always been autocrat/tyrant and he just might show a lot of people how easy a democracy can fall apart.
My issue with this, is that Trump very much represents what the Republican Base wants/wanted. He is a blusterous businessman, who cares only about himself, hates minorities, and thinks Conservatives should focus on pissing off "weak liberals". He took what the party had been hinting at for generations and speed ran the game, jumping to nearly the end. This is also why it doomed the GOP--they cannot go back to dog whistles and implied racism, not after Trump shouted it through a megaphone for 5 years.
 
Nov 2, 2017
2,266
If you have a problem with the substance of my actual post -- that the GOP is a cult and Pelosi is mostly right that it would be better if the GOP were not a cult (this is what ... pretty much all of my post was about except for like the final 2 sentences which were a response to the post above mine) -- then reply to that substance. Instead, you took my response to someone who -- literally -- said "Pelosi is human garbage," and said I'm strawmanning that person. Nah, they said pelosi is human garbage. I don't think that Pelosi is garbage, and I think she's mostly right in this statement, and I think she's mostly right most of the time.

The GOP is a cult. It's also the same thing it's been since the development of the Southern Strategy.

Trump didn't transform the Republican Party, he is the culmination of everything the Republican Party is and has stood for the last half-century. Much like with police, the answer isn't "reforming" the Republican Party, it's annihilating it entirely, you know, the thing that Pelosi is so desperately against and you were saying she was right for being against.
 
OP
OP
Noodle

Noodle

Banned
Aug 22, 2018
3,427
There would be other political parties that cropped up with time, but it wouldn't work out the way many people are hoping--this notion of a "Moderate/Center Left and Left Wing party" would not work out the way people seem to think it would. In all likelihood we'd have a reborn GOP 4-6 years after their collapse that would be Center Right rather than Far Right, and they'd just restart the cycle they started under Goldwater.

So it wouldn't be a one-party state. And why would the bolded be bad exactly?
 
Oct 26, 2017
17,563
So basically she thinks we need a strong right so we don't have to worry about the left

yaaaas queen or whatever you weirdos say, she sucks
 

lenovox1

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,995
If the GOP fucked off into the sun there would be one party rule in name only. There's a big enough gulf between "rich whites first" mainstream Democrats and the rest of the Dem voters that it wouldn't be One Party. It would turn into CorpoDems vs Left/People Dems.

No it wouldn't.

Aren't moderates 60% of the party?
 

xenocide

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,307
Vermont
So it wouldn't be a one-party state. And why would the bolded be bad exactly?
I'm not saying it would be bad--as long as the vile social policies were part of what the "new GOP" reformed. My criticism was mostly at the idea that the 45% of the country that votes somewhat reliably for the current GOP would switch to deciding between Center Left and Left wing candidates.
 

Deleted member 4346

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,976
If the GOP fucked off into the sun there would be one party rule in name only. There's a big enough gulf between "rich whites first" mainstream Democrats and the rest of the Dem voters that it wouldn't be One Party. It would turn into CorpoDems vs Left/People Dems.

Exactly. There's so much daylight between the moderate/center wing of the party (Biden, Obama, the Clintons) and the demsoc/socdem wing (AOC, Bernie, Warren) that the party would immediately split into two parties absent the Republicans. It's only one party because of our shitty FPTP voting system.
 

prophetvx

Member
Nov 28, 2017
5,377
Why should I name one when the point is the damage of what they do to people power or those elected to represent them. I'm quite aware of the reality of the world in most places that claim to be republic or democracy but really aren't.

You also missed the point that I was making that really comes from the 1st potus himself. Parties minimize and consolidate a senator or congresspersons abilities to represent his constituent that statement has never been about individual citizens themselves. This has nothing to do about the world quite frankly Washington's farewell warning has been spot on. it's certainly true in UK as we watch what one power does while not giving the fuck about the rest. Don't lecture me about parties when someone over 200 years ago called out their behavior systematically for what they do any and everywhere they show up.

Its wrong cause republicans who got rid of slavery aren't the corrupt ones we have since reagan and his contra bullshit or the dumb bush jr and his war mongering or lack of oversight of wallstreet and banks that crushed the world economy.
I didn't miss your point and I'm not really interested in what someones opinion from 200 years ago on democracy was, it was a completely different time and they clearly came up with a flawed system. I'm also not an American or someone who thinks the constitution is an infallible document, it's been proven that American democracy truly is a house of cards.

Party systems are fundamental in ensuring one can deliver a message, avoid dictators creating policy and have a mandate that has a diverse range of policy inputs. The US system is fundamentally flawed in that none of this can be achieved without massive amounts of capital, which makes politicians beholden to lobbying and corporate fundraising.

There is a very good reason why all democracies have parties, no single person is equipped to handle the diverse range of issues that a politician may face. Most democracies don't elect a president, they elect a party who elects a leader to represent that party, this is a key difference to the US. You aren't beholden to a single person, with good reason.

Your last point is pivotal in pointing out WHY what Pelosi said is correct. Parties change, leadership changes, motives change... You should absolutely want a strong opposition to ensure that the party in power is held accountable and kept in line. You can make arguments that a two party system is not the right path but multi-party or two-party preferred systems are not without their flaws when it comes to vote dilution or preferential voting.
 

xenocide

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,307
Vermont
Exactly. There's so much daylight between the moderate/center wing of the party (Biden, Obama, the Clintons) and the demsoc/socdem wing (AOC, Bernie, Warren) that the party would immediately split into two parties absent the Republicans. It's only one party because of our shitty FPTP voting system.
The flaw with this, is that ~40% of the electorate, doesn't like either of those options. You would inevitably see a Center/Center-Right movement form, and then it becomes do the Center Left and Left have to either unify or they will never be able to win a plurality (or majority) of votes. We're talking about 60% of the country. Lets say about 25% of the country likes that AOC-wing, and the other 35% likes the Center Left. What happens when a candidate shows up that successfully gets the support of that remaining 40%? We then have elections where once again, the minority opinion has control of the government. Until we either move to RCV or the entire electorate shifts left, we cannot have a system where the Left is fractured without risking an upset.
 

LCGeek

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,917
I didn't miss your point and I'm not really interested in what someones opinion from 200 years ago on democracy was, it was a completely different time and they clearly came up with a flawed system. I'm also not an American or someone who thinks the constitution is an infallible document, it's been proven that American democracy truly is a house of cards.

You do you but not knowing speaks volumes and shows you don't get how some wisdom can be timeless. his point is salient in any age. You can't really disagree with someone who says the parties will consolidate people's powers for their own agenda when that is exactly what has happened, the era it happens it doesn't rid the fact that's how power is being abused.

Party systems are fundamental in ensuring one can deliver a message, avoid dictators creating policy and have a mandate that has a diverse range of policy inputs. The US system is fundamentally flawed in that none of this can be achieved without massive amounts of capital, which makes politicians beholden to lobbying and corporate fundraising.

They only shifted such mechanism to the few who think they know best when they made problems worse for 4 visible generations of americans.

I totally agree about the lack of public funding but neither party wants to fund that process cause of how it maybe their own demise.


There is a very good reason why all democracies have parties, no single person is equipped to handle the diverse range of issues that a politician may face. Most democracies don't elect a president, they elect a party who elects a leader to represent that party, this is a key difference to the US. You aren't beholden to a single person, with good reason.

Your last point is pivotal in pointing out WHY what Pelosi said is correct. Parties change, leadership changes, motives change... You should absolutely want a strong opposition to ensure that the party in power is held accountable and kept in line.

I'm not advocating for a king for the record. Washington's warning was about being vigilant against how the process can sour, not that we should be free of parties but that they shouldn't act like gangs abusing the public or elected officials in the process for an agenda you know like big tax breaks for people who didn't need them or bailouts for companies but not the masses.

and since I don't want to ban I will just say pelosi shows she's not strong opposition sucking up to republicans yet again. For Ms.clapback I expected more but as of late she reminding me just like she reminded me on healthcare she's not strong just a centrist with warped views. You can trust her I've learned from the last two decades alone not to trust her or rely on her same with most dems empty promises vs pure corruption. For someone in to shade she could've not mentioned them once and still made great points, she didn't so it makes me wonder.
 

John Doe

Avenger
Jan 24, 2018
3,443
Why do people like to pretend that the Republicans only went crazy and all out racist when Trump came in?

It's been known. The Simpsons even had an entire episode in 1994 about how evil the party was. This is pre George W Bush and only a few years after the Republican God himself was in office.

Yet the show pointed out how radio personalities lie and manipulate the truth, that rich businessmen are the backers of the party and even electoral fraud. The Republican Party base looked like Dracula's castle.

How does the Republican Party keep getting away with it?
 

prophetvx

Member
Nov 28, 2017
5,377
You do you but not knowing speaks volumes and shows you don't get how some wisdom can be timeless. his point is salient in any age. You can't really disagree with someone who says the parties will consolidate people's powers for their own agenda when that is exactly what has happened, the era it happens it doesn't rid the fact that's how power is being abused.
Kings can consolidate power as well. Parties aren't the problem, a system with which you give a single person absolute power is. Which is exactly how the Trump presidency has panned out. American democracy is predicated on the branches of government keeping the president in check, yet they've lined up behind him.

They only shifted such mechanism to the few who think they know best when they made problems worse for 4 visible generations of americans.

I totally agree about the lack of public funding but neither party wants to fund that process cause of how it maybe their own demise.
Again, another flaw from a decision in time before media existed. I don't know what the solution is but the primary system in the US is pretty unique and does encourage heavy lobbying.

I'm not advocating for a king for the record. Washington's warning was about being vigilant against how the process can sour, not that we should be free of parties but that they shouldn't act like gangs abusing the public or elected officials in the process for an agenda you know like big tax breaks for people who didn't need them or bailouts for companies but not the masses.

and since I don't want to ban I will just say pelosi shows she's not strong opposition sucking up to republicans yet again. For Ms.clapback I expected more but as of late she reminding me just like she reminded me on healthcare she's not strong just a centrist with warped views. You can trust her I've learned from the last two decades alone not to trust her or rely on her same with most dems empty promises vs pure corruption.
Parties by definition are groups with aligned goals but hopefully with enough diversity to ensure that there is representation. I'm not saying that this is what exists in the US but there really isn't a viable alternative other than to hold your elected officials accountable by voting them out. That does require a viable, strong opposition. A system where a party expects a vote or isn't held accountable, will never represent the people who elect them.
 

Neoleo2143

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,474
Simple solution pelosi, destroy the republican party as it stands now and rebuild it using the center and center right dems.
 

take_marsh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,395
This is just a really stupid thing to say unless you want to maintain an anti-progressive status quo. Then it's a really fucking stupid thing to say.

Dems are already conservative enough for this ridiculous country.
 

Deleted member 4346

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,976
The flaw with this, is that ~40% of the electorate, doesn't like either of those options. You would inevitably see a Center/Center-Right movement form, and then it becomes do the Center Left and Left have to either unify or they will never be able to win a plurality (or majority) of votes. We're talking about 60% of the country. Lets say about 25% of the country likes that AOC-wing, and the other 35% likes the Center Left. What happens when a candidate shows up that successfully gets the support of that remaining 40%? We then have elections where once again, the minority opinion has control of the government. Until we either move to RCV or the entire electorate shifts left, we cannot have a system where the Left is fractured without risking an upset.

The only thing that unites the 40% of voters which constitute right is social conservatism. The right's economic policies are shared by the center-left wing of the Democratic Party for the most part. And it's not difficult to imagine moderates adopting some degree of social conservatism. Hell, they have a history of it- Clinton's don't ask don't tell, Obama's opposition to gay marriage, Biden's entire career of targeting POC with law enforcement, etc. etc. etc.

Really what we need is to jettison FPTP and then we'd have 3 or 4 parties that better reflect the entirety of the political spectrum, or at least do serious reforms of the current system. A minority of the electorate is greatly empowered by the electoral college and this minority is extremely reactionary. We'll always struggle to progress if this group maintains their disproportionate influence.
 

Codeblue

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,841
Parties by definition are groups with aligned goals but hopefully with enough diversity to ensure that there is representation. I'm not saying that this is what exists in the US but there really isn't a viable alternative other than to hold your elected officials accountable by voting them out. That does require a viable, strong opposition. A system where a party expects a vote or isn't held accountable, will never represent the people who elect them.

The problem in the US is that the viable opposition is a fascist party. It creates a situation where you can't hold Democrats accountable without sacrificing your own rights, and this has been the case since long before Trump. This is why holding up the Republican party as the opposition draws so much criticism.
 

prophetvx

Member
Nov 28, 2017
5,377
The problem in the US is that the viable alternative opposition is a fascist party. It creates a situation where you can't hold Democrats accountable without sacrificing your own rights, and this has been the case since long before Trump. This is why holding up the Republican party as the opposition draws so much criticism.
I agree. Which is also the point Pelosi was making but people will perceive it however they want to.
 

LCGeek

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,917
Kings can consolidate power as well. Parties aren't the problem, a system with which you give a single person absolute power is. Which is exactly how the Trump presidency has panned out. American democracy is predicated on the branches of government keeping the president in check, yet they've lined up behind him.

Not disagree about king consolidating his power, a king power is always absolute. Parties in theory aren't a problem, their behavior when they start acting out of line are, which is the point is really being made. King or not. Party or not people abusing power at the level of discussion is a problem, not admitting to it doesn't solve that fact. Parties not engaging their powers wisely is problems. A party spending time on a rigged election corruption scandal doesn't help the they people supposedly serve, rich or not.

Again, another flaw from a decision in time before media existed. I don't know what the solution is but the primary system in the US is pretty unique and does encourage heavy lobbying.

We have had the solution like we know how to fix healthcare, power factions in dems or right will never agree to it cause it will inherently discourage less organizations based on finances.

Parties by definition are groups with aligned goals but hopefully with enough diversity to ensure that there is representation. I'm not saying that this is what exists in the US but there really isn't a viable alternative other than to hold your elected officials accountable by voting them out. That does require a viable, strong opposition. A system where a party expects a vote or isn't held accountable, will never represent the people who elect them.

I'm not debating what a party is only what they have done with their power or how they tend to act in history over time regardless of political goals.

You already mentioned the main problem in this country, voting them out. Most people don't vote or vote enough historically. It's like that because one party has spent almost a century engaging in disenfranchisement with legal oppression schemes that our supreme court enables or won't call it for what it is. They have also gerrymandered themselves so it's even harder to remove their power to begin with. You are fighting a party who has rigged district lines so that even when they lose heavily they can gain seats. We are suppose to be nice wall street nancy who inspite said such facts is playing nice with them. No more the stakes are too high for her bullshit especially as king trump is trying to steal an election before and after it is over. She is wasting air time to make that comment instead of remind the public what a shithead trump is, speaks volumes.
 

BabyMurloc

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,890
Democrats should be the most conservative party of the US. Anything more right than that and it's going fascist eventually.
 

xenocide

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,307
Vermont
Democrats should be the most conservative party of the US. Anything more right than that and it's going fascist eventually.
The problem is, parties gather around where voters are--not the other way around. It would appear 35% of this country are completely okay with Fascism--as long as their guy is the one perpetrating it. We cannot be dismissive of the fact that 35% of the country is deeply conservative, and another 5-10% is right-leaning moderates.
 

Jeffolation

Shinra Employee
Member
Oct 30, 2017
7,209
Clearly the party needs more ancient wraths like Pelosi, Hoyer and Biden telling people what's best for them. Yes, we need more facists to balance things out, otherwise you'll end up with all the levers of power and end up having to actually legislate, which I'm beginning to think they aren't really interesting in, more just shuffling around, trying not to shit themselves during press conferences while the country goes off the side of a cliff.
 

BabyMurloc

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,890
The problem is, parties gather around where voters are--not the other way around. It would appear 35% of this country are completely okay with Fascism--as long as their guy is the one perpetrating it. We cannot be dismissive of the fact that 35% of the country is deeply conservative, and another 5-10% is right-leaning moderates.

I don't think America is destined to be so right wing. They're people like everyone else. But yes, the situation is so bad that ultimately it'll probably take a big domestic disaster until people are willing to take a critical look at themselves and the system.
 

Codeblue

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,841
The problem is, parties gather around where voters are--not the other way around. It would appear 35% of this country are completely okay with Fascism--as long as their guy is the one perpetrating it. We cannot be dismissive of the fact that 35% of the country is deeply conservative, and another 5-10% is right-leaning moderates.

Don't you think the party is somewhat responsible for leading some of those people there via their direct rhetoric and media arms?
 

JesseEwiak

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
3,781
The only thing that unites the 40% of voters which constitute right is social conservatism. The right's economic policies are shared by the center-left wing of the Democratic Party for the most part. And it's not difficult to imagine moderates adopting some degree of social conservatism. Hell, they have a history of it- Clinton's don't ask don't tell, Obama's opposition to gay marriage, Biden's entire career of targeting POC with law enforcement, etc. etc. etc.

Really what we need is to jettison FPTP and then we'd have 3 or 4 parties that better reflect the entirety of the political spectrum, or at least do serious reforms of the current system. A minority of the electorate is greatly empowered by the electoral college and this minority is extremely reactionary. We'll always struggle to progress if this group maintains their disproportionate influence.

An actual proportional representation system wouldn't give you what you want, which is a center-left and left-wing party jockeying for control.

The actual reality, as David Shor as pointed out, is we'd get something like this in a multi-party system


Center-right: 30-35%
Center-left: 25-30%
Far-right: 20-25%
Left: 10-12%
Libertarians: 5-10%

Note the center-right party would include many of the current suburban voters in the Midwest and Mid-Atlantic who currently support Democrat's because of social issues and not wanting to be directly allied w/ the crazies. If the crazies were in another party, they'd be far more willing to align with a center-right party led by a Larry Hogan or Charlie Baker, as seen by both Governor's 70%+ approval ratings in those incredibly blue states.

If anything, I think if you actually want a Left-led takeover, PR is actually bad for the Left, at least in America. Remember that PR was originally created by moderate liberals, scared that thanks to FPTP, Socialist's would be able to take control full control of European countries w/ 30-40% of the vote.

The actual reasons we never had a Labor/Socialist/etc. party in America, putting aside the obvious race issues is two-fold - the Electoral College (since that just amplifies the WTA nature of things), and the size of our districts. In the UK, a third party can gain popularity because the average district size is about 70,000, as opposed to 500,000 to 700,000 in the United States.

The 40% of the country that are social and racial reactionaries will have a vote, no matter the system we have. Obviously, we should get rid of the Electoral College, and move to some form of STV, PR, RCV, but because it's more democratic, not because it'll lead to a world where the Left wins all the time.

Don't you think the party is somewhat responsible for leading some of those people there via their direct rhetoric and media arms?

I mean, the country being 30-35% basically reactionaries has been true for a long time now. It's just it used to be they were split between right-wing Birchers talking about Communist's in the shadows, and segregationists railing against the Negro in two separate parties, so the more moderate aspects of both coalitions could work around them. Which was bad for other reasons (aka - race issues being depressed), but also meant the reactionaries didn't realize their electoral power.

Obviously, Fox News & such is responsible for some of the specific nature of the radicalization, but I'm old enough to remember when Rush Limbaugh had a national syndicated TV show where he openly mused about a Clinton Body Count.
 

Druffmaul

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account.
Banned
Oct 24, 2018
2,228
I'm old enough to remember a time when the Democratic party and the Republican party were both sane and knew how to cooperate and work together to keep things going smoothly. R focused on business and commerce, D focused on the population, and they balanced each other out. They kept each other's extremists in check. Where it all went wrong was Newt Gingrich. He came along in the mid/late 1970s and immediately started preaching to his fellow Republicans that the Democratic party was an existential threat to the US and that they needed to essentially start a "cold" civil war to fight them and eventually do away with them. He said shit like "We can't afford to worry about things like civility, fairness, honor, blah blah blah. We need to win, we need to beat them, or this country is dead." At first, the other Republicans blew him off as a young psychotic idiot who didn't know what he was talking about. But then in the 1990s, when Clinton was kicking ass and taking names, they started listening to him. Assholes like Mitch McConnell and Lindsey Graham and John Boner [sic] followed his lead. And IMO that's what lead us to where we are today. No idea if the Republican party can ever be saved now. But there was a time when it wasn't so bad and at least served a purpose. Anyway I'm not surprised there's nobody else around here old enough to remember a time when the Republican party wasn't the most evil group in the world. EDIT: Yeah I figured this would get some dickbag replies.
 
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Heromanz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,202
I'm old enough to remember a time when the Democratic party and the Republican party were both sane and knew how to cooperate and work together to keep things going smoothly. R focused on business and commerce, D focused on the population, and they balanced each other out. They kept each other's extremists in check. Where it all went wrong was Newt Gingrich. He came along in the mid/late 1970s and immediately started preaching to his fellow Republicans that the Democratic party was an existential threat to the US and that they needed to essentially start a "cold" civil war to fight them and eventually do away with them. He said shit like "We can't afford to worry about things like civility, fairness, honor, blah blah blah. We need to win, we need to beat them, or this country is dead." At first, the other Republicans blew him off as a young psychotic idiot who didn't know what he was talking about. But then in the 1990s, when Clinton was kicking ass and taking names, they started listening to him. Assholes like Mitch McConnell and Lindsey Graham and John Boner [sic] followed his lead. And IMO that's what lead us to where we are today. No idea if the Republican party can ever be saved now. But there was a time when it wasn't so bad and at least served a purpose. Anyway I'm not surprised there's nobody else around here old enough to remember a time when the Republican party wasn't the most evil group in the world.
Bro unless you're like 200 years old you're not old enough to remember when the Republican party was good or like not evil lol
 
May 5, 2018
238
Then go join the Republican Party, Nancy. To me, this is her way of preparing the return to status quo should Biden get elected. We will just pretend every Republican didn't do what they did. She doesn't want to indulge in the reality that the issues that have boiled over recently are just as much of a Democrat problem as they are Republican.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
I'm old enough to remember a time when the Democratic party and the Republican party were both sane and knew how to cooperate and work together to keep things going smoothly. R focused on business and commerce, D focused on the population, and they balanced each other out. They kept each other's extremists in check. Where it all went wrong was Newt Gingrich. He came along in the mid/late 1970s and immediately started preaching to his fellow Republicans that the Democratic party was an existential threat to the US and that they needed to essentially start a "cold" civil war to fight them and eventually do away with them. He said shit like "We can't afford to worry about things like civility, fairness, honor, blah blah blah. We need to win, we need to beat them, or this country is dead." At first, the other Republicans blew him off as a young psychotic idiot who didn't know what he was talking about. But then in the 1990s, when Clinton was kicking ass and taking names, they started listening to him. Assholes like Mitch McConnell and Lindsey Graham and John Boner [sic] followed his lead. And IMO that's what lead us to where we are today. No idea if the Republican party can ever be saved now. But there was a time when it wasn't so bad and at least served a purpose. Anyway I'm not surprised there's nobody else around here old enough to remember a time when the Republican party wasn't the most evil group in the world.
You remember 80 years ago? Also Clinton was only 'kicking ass and taking names' if by that you mean locking up minorities and sexually harassing and assaulting his staff. Clinton pivoted hard to the right, why wouldn't right wingers go along with that?
 
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Oct 25, 2017
4,466
I'm old enough to remember a time when the Democratic party and the Republican party were both sane and knew how to cooperate and work together to keep things going smoothly. R focused on business and commerce, D focused on the population, and they balanced each other out. They kept each other's extremists in check. Where it all went wrong was Newt Gingrich. He came along in the mid/late 1970s and immediately started preaching to his fellow Republicans that the Democratic party was an existential threat to the US and that they needed to essentially start a "cold" civil war to fight them and eventually do away with them. He said shit like "We can't afford to worry about things like civility, fairness, honor, blah blah blah. We need to win, we need to beat them, or this country is dead." At first, the other Republicans blew him off as a young psychotic idiot who didn't know what he was talking about. But then in the 1990s, when Clinton was kicking ass and taking names, they started listening to him. Assholes like Mitch McConnell and Lindsey Graham and John Boner [sic] followed his lead. And IMO that's what lead us to where we are today. No idea if the Republican party can ever be saved now. But there was a time when it wasn't so bad and at least served a purpose. Anyway I'm not surprised there's nobody else around here old enough to remember a time when the Republican party wasn't the most evil group in the world.
You old enough to remember the US illegally occupying the Philippines? Bombing the shit out of Vietnam and Korea? National Guard murdering college students for protesting? Black people being murdered and lynched? Segregation? Nicaraguan Contras?

Just trying to pin down when the "good old days" were before those mean and nasty Republicans turned America evil.

it was when White people could ignore the oppression the rest of the world deals with every day 🤫
 

oofouchugh

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,071
Night City
I too am old enough remember the good ole days when Republicans were a normal political party like when they were laughing at millions of people dying from HIV/AIDS or using the War on Drugs as a front to attack minorities. But at least they did it arm in arm with Democrats. Ah the good ole days.
 

Zen

"This guy are sick" says The Wise Ones
Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,672
I wish I could say this was a double ploy, but no it seems like she really is that misguided
 

Shaun Solo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,079
Don't you think the party is somewhat responsible for leading some of those people there via their direct rhetoric and media arms?
Fucking exactly. People have this obsession with the way the "electorate" is now but find it hard to acknowledge that this is malleable. Same when people say "[insert progressive policy] just isn't popular enough!" Yeah, and it never will be if our leaders don't actually LEAD on shit and attempt to sway and form a new public opinion. It's just a way of shutting down any attempt to change the status quo, which IS possible seeing as what's been normalized in such a short time with a fascist in the WH. Centrists are terrified of a reality where they are the dumbass conservatives holding back progress.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,418
That makes no sense. You asked for policies. He gave you one and then you just ignored it and called him a coward on top of that.
Because there's a difference between me asking you (random thing not relevant to this particular line of conversation):
"What do you think of overlogging in the Amazon?"

Vs me saying:
"I could ask you your opinion of overlogging in the Amazon, but you'd probably just say it's somehow secretly good for the planet."

Because when you respond to that second one with your actual opinion on overlogging in the Amazon being a bad thing, I can immediately swing around and say:
"Oh, of course you say that now that I've called out your actual answer."

I don't play those games. And if he genuinely wanted to know he would have just actually asked. But he didn't. Vehemently.

(EDIT: Also, I should note, this tactic is a preemptive attempt to neuter the response if you say the thing they said you would no matter how strong the justification. The fact that I focused in on its uses when the person in question responds differently than expected probably tips my hand as to what my response would have been if the question was actually asked)
Why does that matter? This thread is about her shitty statement. You seemingly have no defense for it so instead you are trying this "name five policy positions from Pelosi you don't like" as if it has any relevance to the topic at hand because you can't actually defend this shitty statement of hers.
You should probably actually read the whole of the conversations you decide to jump onto the end of before you start going on about what's being discussed so that you have context and don't, I don't know, make blatantly false statements, yeah?
 
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Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
Because there's a difference between me asking you (random thing not relevant to this particular line of conversation):
"What do you think of overlogging in the Amazon?"

Vs me saying:
"I could ask you your opinion of overlogging in the Amazon, but you'd probably just say it's somehow secretly good for the planet."

Because when you respond to that second one with your actual opinion on overlogging in the Amazon being a bad thing, I can immediately swing around and say:
"Oh, of course you say that now that I've called out your actual answer."

I don't play those games. And if he genuinely wanted to know he would have just actually asked. But he didn't. Vehemently.

You should probably actually read the whole of the conversations you decide to jump onto the end of before you start going on about what's being discussed so that you have context and don't, I don't know, make blatantly false statements, yeah?
What's the defense then?
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,418
What's the defense then?
Sure, I'll do the leg work for you just this one time. Since it's apparently such a chore to apply due diligence.
"Democrats should play dirty like the Republicans. I don't understand why they don't!"
*Pelosi pulls a tactic straight out of the Republican playbook*
"FUCK YOU PELOSI! THE DEMOCRATS ARE SHIT! ARRRRRGHELLDJUEGDPEORBSI1IFCWPT!!!!"

Literally every time.

I wish they took the tactics that actually works at entrenching them in power for generations

I mean, they only have the two plays.

Pretend to not be doing what you're doing in order to shake loose the undecideds and the people who lean towards the other side a bit. All the while winking and nodding at your base.

Consolidate power once you have control.

That's it. That's the playbook.
Also, imagine if a Republican voter was convinced by this. What would she say to them four years from now when the GOP nominates a more tolerable monster? "Thanks for the help against Trump, have a nice day voting red again"?
The aim is to convince enough of them that they like the status quo so as not to do that. Incumbency's a hell of an advantage. Things get rocky 8 years on when the incumbency is gone, but the goal is to, by then, have so many Senate and House incumbents, plus people who like what has happened over the last 8 that there's still a shot at winning and even a loss results in still controlling at least one, but hopefully both bodies of Congress.
I don't see how praising the Republican Party of yore is an appeal for republicans to vote Democrat unless the argument here is that she is saying the democrats are the Republicans of yore now which I would clearly and obviously have a problem with that
"Your party is crazy. It used to not be. It'd be nice if it weren't again. Vote for us to show them.how upset you are they are crazy. Maybe it will help them.be not crazy again."

But I'm pretty sure you already knew that.
<Two posts that are going around that circle again but you can look them up yourself>
Aight I'm out. Impossible to have a good faith conversation about this white woman y'all hold so dear who's apparently above reproach.
It's incredible that she literally can do no wrong in the eyes of some folk here.
Point to an actual bill as opposed to complaining about a Politician trying to win votes and you'll actually have a point. Because she's been wrong there and that's shit that actually matters. But no one actually complains about that on here. They bawl about shit they were wishing Democrats would do literally days earlier. Because it turns out they don't actually want them to do it.
Saying the opposition party needs to be strong in order to win votes to your side is definitely a choice.

I could talk about her dismissiveness of the Green New Deal but it'd surely be said it's some 4D chess plan to win votes too.
And that's the whole conversation you missed. You're welcome. (There are three voices involved here other than mine, but you can click back and see who if you find it important to know).
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
I'm aware of the context of the conversation, you are both severely mischaracterizing the criticism of this statement and not offering a convincing argument as to why it is beneficial or necessary for her to make this statement (a statement that is demonstrably false).
 

dabig2

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,116
Fucking exactly. People have this obsession with the way the "electorate" is now but find it hard to acknowledge that this is malleable. Same when people say "[insert progressive policy] just isn't popular enough!" Yeah, and it never will be if our leaders don't actually LEAD on shit and attempt to sway and form a new public opinion. It's just a way of shutting down any attempt to change the status quo, which IS possible seeing as what's been normalized in such a short time with a fascist in the WH. Centrists are terrified of a reality where they are the dumbass conservatives holding back progress.

How-liberals-lead.png
 

Gyro Zeppeli

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,289
Sure, I'll do the leg work for you just this one time. Since it's apparently such a chore to apply due diligence.

Uh no. Your galaxy brain strategizing is pure fan fiction. Democrats always do this. They appeal to the right, and every fucking time, that's how the over ton window moves to the right. There is nothing calculating about what Pelosi is saying. Her and Biden hate the left and they don't want to see it becoming more popular.
 
Oct 26, 2017
17,563
So are you going to engage in the discussion and information that's actually in this thread, or nah?
What else is there to add? The Republicans haven't changed outside of superficial image related issues surrounding Trump's loud mouth. They engaged in voter suppression, climate change denial. cutting social programs, cutting taxes for the risk, dog whistling, and much more for a very long time now. And Pelosi is a firm capitalist and neoliberal that emerged from the post-Reagan New Democrat age when Republicans and Democrats were two sides of the same coin. Pelosi has felt so threatened by the left that she openly endorsed Joe Kennedy against Ed Markey, which violated Dem's commitment to not endorse any primary challengers to incumbents. Her true colors are gonna show once Moderate Dems are in control, just like the rest of them. But for now, they need the left and unity to win. And without a firm Republican party to fall back on, they will have to lean into the left more and more if the right continues to be this batshit insane.
 

Molecule

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,691
What a psychotic thing to say. Also, Q will be the future of the Republican party. Dark times ahead.