Granted they will stop getting death threats like they do, for what they are doing. It's already put John off and this is only the beginning of a generation.
Very difficult to keep to your line if You get constant hatred.
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
Very difficult to keep to your line if You get constant hatred.
User Warned: Platform Warring; Conspiracy Theorizing
Is this why cerny talked about SSD for 2 hours?
When do digital foundry do the full breakdown?
When do digital foundry do the full breakdown?
So you skipped the bit where Cerny said they were working closely with AMD and if a RDNA 2 card came out roughly the same time as the PS5 then it will be clear that their relationship bore fruit? Or when he was talking about the Geometry engine? Or hardware accelerated ray tracing (Intersection engine)?
I find it weird that MS just put this statment out right after the reveal and Sony had been quiet. i really thought Sony was also waiting on AMD for the reveal and would post the features and maybe even a deep dive into the system. Really curious about the full RDNA2 features on both consoles.
Yep.
I honestly don't think people who use this for console wars actually understand what is actually different other than 1.
The chips were designed at pretty much the same time, use a similar CPU and the GPU appears to be slightly different ways (frequency Vs width) to get to similar perf targets.
For most people they aren't even going to know, or see any differences.
I wouldn't call it far superior. Both consoles are very good and close. But probably not as close as the percentage some users are using based on the TF number.
Who is he and where did he post this?
I think it's the other way around with some of those customizations. Microsoft wanted and developed some of them like SFS and with AMD integrated them into PC GPU's.
Very good post as always. I think these differences can matter, but they won't shift what sane people already think about these two powerful and close consoles.
It's based on that, but SFS is completely developed by Microsoft.
The timeline rumors make all sense now.
I don't think Sony has every feature RDNA2 or the Xbox GPU will have. Just like Sony has features like the cache scrubbers Microsoft doesn't have. Both made customization and simply use RDNA2 as a base. Xbox however has full RDNA2 and Sony something else.
Hahaha. No. Did you know how those rumors started? With a guy saying PS4 Pro had some features of the upcoming AMD gen, thus PS5 could probably have them aswell. However he completely failed to realise that the PS4 Pro released in between Polaris and Vega. This isn't the case for the PS5, thus all features could be implemented into RDNA2 already. Furthermore RDNA3 is way out and according to AMD a topic in 2022. Compared to that Vega GPU released summer of the year after PS4 Pro released. So don't get your hopes up on baseless speculation that the PS5 has RDNA3 features.
Some of the features were literally developed by or with Microsoft. That's probably a reason and then the different companies have different priorities and schedules. We know Sony was far ahead of delivering devkits and all that stuff. Thus it's probably correct what Xbox is saying here, that they've waited longer to get the full RDNA2 features, while Sony didn't. As to why, no idea. But perhaps Sony developed their own ideas or thought the features aren't worth it, to expensive, ... . Who knows.
The relation between clock and power consumption is not linear. Then sure, you can increase your instruction per clock and performance per watt ratio making the architecture more efficient, so you can mantain those high clocks before reaching any power limit or thermal limit, but we missing some data here. We don't know how well it scales up to those boost clock, for example. I'm curious to see these benchmarks. Anyway, I don't think that having a GPU stable at 2.23ghz is the proof that VRS, mesh shaders, ML acceleration and some other RDNA2 features are implemented also on PS5. This was the intent of my reply to Bunzy.
I'm not saying that PS5's GPU is RDNA1. I'm looking at the facts, Microsoft said that Xbox Series X|S are the only next gen consoles to features a full implementation of RDNA2 architecture. I don't think this implies PS5 implements a RDNA1 GPU, but I do think that there are some features of RDNA2 that Sony have not implemented. Maybe because they developed an alternative, maybe because they thought wouldn't be needed, maybe because they didn't want to wait AMD to finalize every aspect of RDNA2 and give final devkit to developer earlier. Microsoft seems very confident about specific features since the Series X hardware showcase, like VRS, mesh shaders and int-4/int-8 capability for DirectML, so I do think that difference might be here.
Last edited:
He said if the same features in ps5 comes out on rdna2 then that means their relationship bore fruit.
We don't know if the Geometry engine has equivalent features to all the ones supported in RDNA2.
I don't agree with this conclusion. Microsoft's phrasing is that Xbox consoles are the only ones with full hardware support for the entire RDNA2 feature set. This heavily implies lack of support at the hardware level, not a different implementation or a different API.
Many users said there will be a ~15% difference between PS5 and Xbox GPU. This was always to simplified, because TF aren't indicative of the difference. Other parts of the GPU in hardware and software matter aswell. I don't think Xbox having full RDNA2 will shift the difference to a major degree. But it will have a minimal impact and make the percentage misleading.both consoles are great.
This.
Of course TF is not the only number that matter, like a lot of peopel have being saying for the past couple months. There is no point is saying that the difference is going to be big or even bigger, at this point peopel can just wait for bechmarks to know for sure.
I really wish MS would just show some next gen games and STFU with this simping. They are just piggy-backing on the AMD news cycle hype.
But to be fair, let's not pretend that Sony didn't try something similar with the Unreal Engine 5 demo.
Its just marketing BS, people, move on. If AMD announces cache scrubbers and Tempest Audio in RDNA 3, Sony could say that PS5 "leverages RDNA 3 features". This would be an equally meaningless statement.
But to be fair, let's not pretend that Sony didn't try something similar with the Unreal Engine 5 demo.
Its just marketing BS, people, move on. If AMD announces cache scrubbers and Tempest Audio in RDNA 3, Sony could say that PS5 "leverages RDNA 3 features". This would be an equally meaningless statement.
Until Sony responds whe know next to nothing. It could be RDNA1 with RDNA 2 features added(which i believe was misunderstood). It could be RDNA2 based (like Cerny said) with heavy customisation. Hell they could even have some features that we will see in RDNA3. It would not suprise me seeing the close relationship Sony had with AMD. And people misunderstood Leonardo Rosario, he ment that the GPU is so customised it cant be simply classified as RDNA 1 or 2 or whatever number for that mather. It was RDNA2 with some missing features, like many people here are trying to make clear. I want to know what features are missing and which are added.
Cerny said:
After confirming that Sony's PS5 will house "a custom AMD GPU based on their RDNA 2 technology," Cerny added, "if you see a similar discrete GPU available as a PC card at roughly the same time as we release our console, that means our collaboration with AMD succeeded in producing technology useful in both worlds. It doesn't mean that we at Sony simply incorporated the PC part into our console."
Cerny said:
After confirming that Sony's PS5 will house "a custom AMD GPU based on their RDNA 2 technology," Cerny added, "if you see a similar discrete GPU available as a PC card at roughly the same time as we release our console, that means our collaboration with AMD succeeded in producing technology useful in both worlds. It doesn't mean that we at Sony simply incorporated the PC part into our console."
Microsoft is essentially blurring the lines between AMD specific features and DirectX ones (which RDNA2 supports). It's clever marketing.
I also didn't say Microsoft's implementation of what are originally Nvidia/DX features are not HW accelerated (although I don't believe they've stated that VRS or Mesh shaders are hardware accelerated), but that the RDNA2/AMD specific ones that are, are in the PS5 too.
For example, it is already confirmed the PS5 has hardware accelerated ray tracing, yet we still have people claiming otherwise.
From Cerny himself.
"There is ray-tracing acceleration in the GPU hardware"
Ultimately the features people say are missing from the PS5 to determine that is not full RDNA2 (despite both AMD and Sony saying otherwise), are not even originally AMD specific features to begin with, rather Nvidia/DirectX ones. Hence it's not at all accurate to use said DirectX features to assume the PS5 isn't full RDNA2.
Last edited:
But the UE5 demo was actually running on a PS5 wasn't it?
MS have started showing more games in the past few weeks, their trouble is there aren't many first party ones available yet that are new for next gen.
Probably Xbox Series X/S is superior in terms of additional compute saving features. Because if PS5 had for an example VRS, then Sony would confirm it long ago. Assuming Mesh Shaders are a more effective implementation of Primitive Shaders, VRS in on par with the tier 2 version and AMD's Super Resolution will yield similar results to DSLL in the future, then all in all XSX should have additional ~30% leverage against PS5 thanks to it. And what of it? I guess mainly frame rate advantage in multiplatform games, i.e. XSX 4K 60fps and PS5 4K 30-45fps, similar to Xbox One and PS4 situation with resolution (900p vs 1080p). Time and DF will tell.
Mesh shaders aren't exclusive to Direct X. There's OpenGL and Vulkan support for it In Nvidia's Turing GPUs.
Microsoft's blog post and their reference to 'waiting for all capabilities to be available' seems to heavily imply hardware capabilities, not just stuff based on APIs.
We don't know for sure what the differences are. I suggest we wait until MS clarifies instead of passing across speculation as facts.
What does showing next gen titles have to do with anything? Tweeting this doesn't magically delay or accelerate games in development.
it's also an acceptable and common practice (not 'marketing BS') to leverage on a partner announcement to sell your stuff. There's a symbiotic relationship between MS/AMD and Sony/AMD, and AMD has retweeted stuff from Sony and MS in the past.
Don't let these things affect you.
I'd hope Sony allows a deep dive into their SoC eventually. It won't be 'meaningless' if they retweet that at the end of the day. Is it a 'meaningless' thing that theyve talked up their ultra-fast SSD multiple times?
Funnily enough some of those users saying TF don't matter, then did go on and used TF to calculate the GPU difference of these two consoles. I never understood this ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Absolutely and interesting times ahead.
This was always nonsense and I wouldn't even talk to those users. PS5 is RDNA2 based and has those HW features. The big news with this blog post is that it doesn't seem PS5 has all those HW features however, because Microsoft said they've waited for these features in the blog. Heavily suggesting Sony choose a different route.
You are doing the same thing, you are calculate the difference in GPU will be bigger do to miss features that you dont know about it.
I feel like now AMD has done their presentation Sony might start talking more about what they did if Cerny was right so might drop some info soon.
If they were hardware accelerated, they'd surely state they were hardware accelerated. Waiting for all capabilities to be available is more likely software/API related.
And yes, OpenGL and Vulkan have support for DirectX features, but again, it's at a software/API level. This goes back to the point about how these DirectX/Nvidia features are not originally AMD/RDNA2 specific, the only reason they're even there is because RDNA2 supports DirectX.
So whilst the Series X has extensive support for said features (VRS, Mesh shaders etc), that's sort of unrelated to whether it's RDNA2 or not. Since those things aren't originally RDNA2 specific features to begin with.
As mentioned, Sony uses their own API. Perhaps they have wrappers or whatever for DirectX elements, but it's more likely they simply have their own take or version of said features, or their own unique ones. But Sony has never really properly advertised their API capabilities, nor put marketable terms to them. We know the PS4 uses Gnm and Gnmx, but we don't actually know what features etc that entails, all we know is that games look really good and are technically proficient, especially much of the first party stuff.
Last edited:
It's certainly possible, but what are you basing this on? I would imagine that in such a case the PR would be talking about lack of support for the DirectX feature set, not the RDNA2 one. The statement seems to be very deliberately focusing on hardware.
Hardware accelerated: "new hardware acceleration capabilities including hardware accelerated DirectX Raytracing, Mesh Shaders, Sampler Feedback and Variable Rate Shading"
This definitely refers to hardware, not software as it refers to finalising architecture: "In our quest to put gamers and developers first we chose to wait for the most advanced technology from our partners at AMD before finalizing our architecture"
The thing is, on Microsoft's own glossary of terms, when each individual feature is separately discussed, the only thing listed as hardware accelerated is DirectX ray tracing, not any of the other stuff, so the above could just be an obfuscation of language, whilst it also might mean all of it is hardware accelerated. Some clarification would be nice.
Defining the Next Generation: An Xbox Series X|S Technology Glossary - Xbox Wire
[Editor’s Note: Updated on 10/21 at 11AM to ensure it is now reflective of the capabilities across both of our next-gen Xbox consoles following the unveil of Xbox Series S.] As we enter a new generation of console gaming with Xbox Series X and Xbox Series S, we’ve made a number of technology...
news.xbox.com
Sony are arguably more likely to have gone to AMD with specific customisations they felt were needed for their vision/hardware system as they've done with PS4 and pro before. Either pulling in things from AMD's roadmap to include earlier (like RPM for pro), extending/adapting existing features (like more granular scheduling wiht more ACEs in PS4), or even adding new specific features (like GPU cache scrubbers in PS5).
That isn't likely to match 1:1 to an 'RDNA2' PC GPU and Cerny said as much. But it doesn't mean it isn't using RDNA2 architecture.
MS is arguably more likely to focus on DX12U features because it is in their interest for AMD (and Nvidia) to support them at a hardware level on PC - so they can get adoption by developers of DX12U, and by combining their PC/Xbox dev tools which they are doing now, by extension it would be logical for XSX/XSS to have similar features - it makes development simpler and gets developers familiar with those features so they are more likely to adopt on PC
tldr : Feels like MS is making the Xbox 'series' into living room PCs with a fairly 'standard' PC feature set - and their innovation is in industrial design, pushing the performance envelope, and pushing features box in Xbox *and* PC at the same time. Extending the PC ecosystem into the living room through their Xbox ecosystem. Synergy and all that. Sony is focusing on their console and what it needs to succeed and there is no legacy/compatibility reason for them to need to follow the PC feature set path as much.
Right now, Sony has the games and Microsoft has the tech. I guess we'll have to wait a year to see if it actually makes a difference. For me personally, unless MS gets Japanese games (not just SE), I'll probably never switch to Xbox no matter how powerful it is. (unless they buy all the big devs lol)
EDIT: I guess I want to add on some more. MS is really making some strides at the beginning of next gen. They have the power, they have the nice, sleek designed console, and robust online. They just need some damn games that people really want. All this technical stuff doesn't mean much without them.
EDIT: I guess I want to add on some more. MS is really making some strides at the beginning of next gen. They have the power, they have the nice, sleek designed console, and robust online. They just need some damn games that people really want. All this technical stuff doesn't mean much without them.
At hotchips and gdc presentation Ms outlined hardware acceleration for each of the features.The thing is, on Microsoft's own glossary of terms, when each individual feature is separately discussed, the only thing listed as hardware accelerated is DirectX ray tracing, not any of the other stuff, so the above could just be an obfuscation of language, whilst it also might mean all of it is hardware accelerated. Some clarification would be nice.
Defining the Next Generation: An Xbox Series X|S Technology Glossary - Xbox Wire
[Editor’s Note: Updated on 10/21 at 11AM to ensure it is now reflective of the capabilities across both of our next-gen Xbox consoles following the unveil of Xbox Series S.] As we enter a new generation of console gaming with Xbox Series X and Xbox Series S, we’ve made a number of technology...
They are all hardware based, in many cases you can get around with an software implementation, but it would potentially mean less performance /more complex code.
For example, if ps5 lacks rpm for int4 and 8 it will still be able to run any ML model you throw at it, just will have a performance hit.
We don't know if PS5 lacks hardware level support for these features or if it has another features at a hardware level simply because we don't know the customizations Sony did with their GPU. The main thing here is that the GPU that you have in a Xbox console is way closer to the GPU AMD showed yesterday than the PS5 GPU is.
I'm thinking that if there is any feature entirely missing from PS5 hardware (or something very similar) it's the sampler feedback. Sony has talked about something similar to everything else in the past, Cerny himself has patents related to VRS, but sampler feedback seems totally new and spearheaded by MS R&D
User Warned: Ignoring Staff Post
I guess time will tell how much of a difference this is going to make. Microsoft can fully spin the "only next-gen console with full RDNA2" claim simply by virtue of knowing Sony may have left a feature or two out in favor of their own custom solution, so both consoles can be similar in feature set and one of them still not be "full RDNA2" because it doesn't use RDNA2's solution.
And we know they love a spin.
And we know they love a spin.
The thing is, on Microsoft's own glossary of terms, when each individual feature is separately discussed, the only thing listed as hardware accelerated is DirectX ray tracing, not any of the other stuff, so the above could just be an obfuscation of language, whilst it also might mean all of it is hardware accelerated. Some clarification would be nice.
Defining the Next Generation: An Xbox Series X|S Technology Glossary - Xbox Wire
[Editor’s Note: Updated on 10/21 at 11AM to ensure it is now reflective of the capabilities across both of our next-gen Xbox consoles following the unveil of Xbox Series S.] As we enter a new generation of console gaming with Xbox Series X and Xbox Series S, we’ve made a number of technology...
it's been pointed out to you that the blog post says
'From our partners'
At this point, you're pretty much saying AMD is behind DirectX.
I didn't calculate anything. However waiting for AMD as said in the blog makes it only logical to assume this will have small benefits due to a more mature RDNA2 integration/further developed RDNA2 GPU. I don't find the right word probably.
RDNA2 is about hardware and they mentioned hardware in the hot chips thing.
Everyone believing the PS5 doesn't use RDNA2 architecture is simply dumb. It uses the architecture as a base, however as stated by Microsoft Xbox uses the full RDNA2 architecture and waited for that (to be finished). Since Xbox is the only console with full RDNA2 support, we can conclude Sony didn't wait and something (presumably smaller imo) is missing in hardware.
Very well explained.
The PR is talking about RDNA2 because AMD just had an event. Thats the focus of the message. They then use that to piggy back on the DirectX ray tracing and DirectStorage too.
The simplest assumption to make at this stage is that this is a marketing message designed to make the Xbox attractive to consumers. Nothing more can be intepreted accurately and would be spculation. Which of course is the sign of good marketing if it makes people speculate.
- both consoles are close in performance
- both have the same ram
- both are coming out at a similar price
- both are coming out at the same time
- both had access to similar information from AMD
- limited information from devs and insiders is that development on both and perofrmance of both is very close
The logical conclusion without specific information from either MS or Sony - is that both will perform well and both have pretty similar HW features.
This is not about API features. You don't need to wait for AMD to develop or start developing your own API features. They are clearly talking about hardware here:
Again, missing the point. Obviously AMD will have needed to work with Microsoft on a hardware level for their design intentions (be that implementation of RDNA2 or DirectX features, inc HW based ones), because they're manufacturing their APU, but in no way does that quote mean or state features like VRS or Mesh shaders are originally AMD/RDNA2 specific ones. All it means is Microsoft waited to have full RDNA2 feature set before moving ahead with their design.
Full quote.
"At the very beginning of development of the Xbox Series X | S, we knew we were setting the foundation for the next decade of gaming innovation and performance across console, PC and cloud. To deliver on this vision we wanted to leverage the full capabilities of RDNA 2 in hardware from day one. Through close collaboration and partnership between Xbox and AMD, not only have we delivered on this promise, we have gone even further introducing additional next-generation innovation such as hardware accelerated Machine Learning capabilities for better NPC intelligence, more lifelike animation, and improved visual quality via techniques such as ML powered super resolution.
In our quest to put gamers and developers first we chose to wait for the most advanced technology from our partners at AMD before finalizing our architecture. Now, with the upcoming release of Xbox Series X|S and the new AMD Radeon RX 6000 Series GPUs, developers have a common set of next-generation tools and performance capabilities that will empower them to deliver transformative gaming experiences across both console and PC."
maybe sony is using the Radeon FidelityFx API? because its a open source kit made by AMD
they use as example godfall to demonstrate the fidelityFX
EDIT: fidelityFX have its own VRS
they use as example godfall to demonstrate the fidelityFX
EDIT: fidelityFX have its own VRS
The fact MS waited for the tech to be ready is a huge get for them. Having RDNA 2.0 full set hardware gpu is going to pay dividends as devs get to use them throughout the gen. I expect late next year or 2022 where we really start seeing the tech showing off
I think the next forza game in 2021... 1st party built ground up on Dx12 ultimate
Why do people seem to think that Sony is not capable of coming up with their own solutions? They have in the past and probably continued to do so for the ps5. The only difference is Sony ever since the PS3 debacle has never been open or transparent at all about their tech
The PS4 released in 2013. The PS4pro released in 2016. It would not be unreasonable to expect a PS5pro/XSX+ in ~2023.
So for consumers who are 'performance focused', getting an advantage in 2022 is pointless. If the XSS/X has some kind of hidden advantage, then that needs to be shown 'now'.
The proof of the pudding is not going hungry and leaving it on a shelf for 2 years to mature.
If I remember correctly the the Hot Chips presentation had the following as "SOC Hardware Innovations":The thing is, on Microsoft's own glossary of terms, when each individual feature is separately discussed, the only thing listed as hardware accelerated is DirectX ray tracing, not any of the other stuff, so the above could just be an obfuscation of language, whilst it also might mean all of it is hardware accelerated. Some clarification would be nice.
Defining the Next Generation: An Xbox Series X|S Technology Glossary - Xbox Wire
[Editor’s Note: Updated on 10/21 at 11AM to ensure it is now reflective of the capabilities across both of our next-gen Xbox consoles following the unveil of Xbox Series S.] As we enter a new generation of console gaming with Xbox Series X and Xbox Series S, we’ve made a number of technology...
Sampler Feedback Streaming
DXR
VRS
ML Acceleration
Mesh Shading
Its a given now, when taken with the comments previous, that these are all hardware elements within the SOC.
If Sony and Microsoft could come up with their own solutions to these problems, why would they need AMD?
Having bespoke chipsets like Cell that end up nowhere else is damn expensive, and even then, it was based on Power PC. You let the people that specialize in these things figure it out while making some changes here and there.
PS4 used the CPU for audio, while Xbox One had specific hardware for those tasks. Point being they make different decisions and this seems to be about more mature RDNA2 hardware, thus Sony just can't release a patch or update to include those parts. Both consoles make their own decisions and customizations. That's the reality of it.
Short answer to your question: Reality.