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Jenea

Banned
Mar 14, 2018
1,568
And that's also being answered in this thread in context for this article and Matt already said it's actually both.
Ok, in this case can you explain me how Microsoft knows how much time per user is spent on Nintendo Switch, if their statement implies that ''Xbox one played time per user'' is higher than ''NS played time per user'' ?
Is this the benefit of crossplay so N shares all available data with them ? /s
 
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Irrotational

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,171
Of course Sony is making more money right now. What MS is reporting is that the gap in physical sales does not mean an equal gap in software sales.
Yep totally.

AND it might be slightly closer because those extra 40 million consoles had to be made, plus they will generate extra support queries need more warranty etc.

I'm sure it will be a net positive to profit, but not a straight doubling of profit by any means.

I'm pulling these figures out of thin air, they will be wrong but the point is to show how important engagement is to profit.

Let's say profit is very slim in hardware, say 10 percent. Let's say people buy 2 games a year on ps and 3 a year on Xbox, and they get their 30 percent cut of the digital sale (£40 games)

Total profit per person is say £20 to £30 for hardware, £24 from games for Sony and £40 from games for Xbox. So Sony may sell double the consoles but "only" have 108 from 2 customers whilst Xbox has 70 profit from its 1 customer. Sony has 50 percent extra profit, not double. Still a lot more!!

From a business point of view its very important that the games sales are an annual recurring profit stream as well. This is much more stable, and so easier to manage etc.

Now let's factor in that point. Let's assume customers hang around for 4 years (for the financial people I'm ignoring the time value of money so truncating the life span is an approximation for it).

Sonys profit is 60 in hardware plus 4 years of 48 which is 252.

Xbox profit is 30 in hardware plus 4 years of 40 so 190.

The difference then is around 30 percent.

Judging from some previous posts, a lot of people think this kind of maths or analysis is total marketing bullshit, defence force posting etc.

All I can say is that big business is fucking serious business. If this kind of analysis was bullshit (my numbers are! The logic is not), investors and their analysts would scream it from the hills and run like mad.

No big company would get away with marketing bullshit, or nonsensical metrics. Their exec team would get sacked, and/or their share price would collapse into administration and/or they'd get bought.

Angry forum users can shake their fists at the sky all they want, but it's still a mass of gaseous particles made up of several elements, a lot of water vapour, and some pollution.
 

Purdy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,494
One console has nothing I can't get on other consoles/PC. I love single player games most of all, and I hate GaaS. And one console is heading straight in the opposite direction, so why would I want that console?

Do you see now, why some people don't see the value in all of the three consoles?

I imagine he meant value in all three as a whole, not just specifically to you.

God these threads are the same every time. If it was Sony it would be high fives and pats on the back.
If it was Nintendo the same with the switch now except someone would say they are a Nintendo only gamer and others would get angry

Feels good enjoying every offering in the market to some extent
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,018
Florida
One console has nothing I can't get on other consoles/PC. I love single player games most of all, and I hate GaaS. And one console is heading straight in the opposite direction, so why would I want that console?

Do you see now, why some people don't see the value in all of the three consoles?

It's not my job to show you value but I assure you there is more on the console than GAAS. And even if you don't personally want it, which is fine, I believe you have the emotional intelligence to understand why someone else might.
 

Ge0force

Self-requested ban.
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,265
Belgium
MAUs always suffer a big drop after the holidays are over. So normally we would've seen a drop to 56 million or something like that. That number stayed even after the holiday season for the first time is what you're missing.

Good point, thanks for mentioning this! I will edit my post.
 

BlacJack

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
1,021
You're missing the forest for the trees. The point is that no one is force feeding you any lies or hitting you over the head with it constantly. When did MS talk to you about this? Seems like you just read it on this thread right?

Nah dawg, no one even said it was a lie or force feeding. I even mentioned that maybe it was just the fact that people feel the need to make a thread out of everyone of them that makes it seem that way. Sounds like you got a little defensive over your company of choice is all.

It's just silly that these threads always pop up, and Ientioned other examples of the se thing, and it always seems to be the same company.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,577
You have to be pretty obtuse to not grasp the concept that a dedicated and spending user base is good news for business. AAA gaming is a service now, and a service thrives on those users that engage with it. It makes investment planning much easier and "safe"
Despite the lower sales MS is in a good spot right now. Their services are growing and I expect them to come out of this gen with one heck of a value proposition going into the future of their brand.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,151
United Kingdom
Yet the strategy doesn't stop there, because of Microsoft has Xbox Live, Game Pass, and Mixer are all additional opportunities to "really serve the gamers" as they play more games or watch games on different platforms.

The last element, which Nadella thinks is new and is already paying its dividends on the Azure growth side is that Microsoft has taken all the knowledge of what it means to build first-party games, and has built it into services in Azure for game developers. The PlayFab acquisition speaks directly to that. Those are the levers Microsoft has in gaming, and investors will see the effects on the More Personal Computing segment and overtime on Azure.

Does this not mean that they consider Xbox to be primarily a vehicle for Azure cloud services?

Doesn't sound like a vision for Xbox I can get behind.
 

tbyte64

Member
Dec 30, 2017
396
Companies use terms like "highest engagement" when they can't use terms like "market leader" or "best selling". It's not unlike "fastest growing". It means absolutely nothing.
 

Deleted member 20297

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,943
User Warned: System Wars
The way that some of you are triggered by positive Xbox news is hysterical. Every thread, every time lol
Stop being defensive, this is typical Ms marketing spin because they lost this gen. Your are only showing your true colors.
Man, if you read this bullshit often, it's really easy to write and replicate.
 

Deleted member 18951

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,531
Stop being defensive, this is typical Ms marketing spin because they lost this gen. Your are only showing your true colors.
Man, if you read this bullshit often, it's really easy to write and replicate.

Sorry. That's that damn persecution complex kicking in again, I better take my meds to stop it getting out of control ;)
 

Lurcharound

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,068
UK
It's a positive metric for sure but it's annoying that in isolation like this it's also relatively meaningless.

Without unit and revenue numbers you simply can't evaluate the true story behind the metric and how positive - or not - a picture it really paints. Engagement is a derived performance metric after all.

It's a shame for those of us who like to understand the true performance profile of each console.
 

VallenValiant

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,598
You have to be pretty obtuse to not grasp the concept that a dedicated and spending user base is good news for business. AAA gaming is a service now, and a service thrives on those users that engage with it. It makes investment planning much easier and "safe"
Despite the lower sales MS is in a good spot right now. Their services are growing and I expect them to come out of this gen with one heck of a value proposition going into the future of their brand.
Without any understanding of the SIZE of the user base, it is meaningless. I can make and market my own game console, and have me being its only customer. And that would generate user engagement that literally reaches infinity. Since the only user of the console also is 100% invested in its ecosystem.
 

Deleted member 20297

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,943
Ok, in this case can you explain me how Microsoft knows how much time per user is spent on Nintendo Switch, if their statement implies that ''Xbox one played time per user'' is higher than ''NS played time per user'' ?
Is this the benefit of crossplay so N shares all available data with them ? /s
Working at a company in a market with a lot of competitors, I can tell you that it's sometimes amazing how much we know about other companies and what they know about us. There are several metrics we have and publish to certain institutes that our customers don't know about.
 

Mikebison

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,036
User Warned: System Wars
MS all over this gen. a load of market spin and utter bollocks and no focus on what's actually important...games. Yeah, it gets said a lot, but it's crazy how everybody knows what they need other than Microsoft.
 

Hurting Bomb

Member
Oct 28, 2017
932
This maybe because Playstation doesn't have good exclusive multiplayer games to keep them on their console......
 

OrdinaryPrime

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,042
Without any understanding of the SIZE of the user base, it is meaningless. I can make and market my own game console, and have me being its only customer. And that would generate user engagement that literally reaches infinity. Since the only user of the console also is 100% invested in its ecosystem.

To put this into context, based on another thread, PSN is doubling Xbox Live in revenue. So this seems to be a bit of spin, perhaps to make those numbers a bit palatable.

This maybe because Playstation doesn't have good exclusive multiplayer games to keep them on their console......

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/most-played/games/xbox

I'm honestly not seeing a ton here either.
 

clickKunst

Member
Dec 18, 2017
787
Melbourne, Australia
I just happened to end up owning all consoles for this generation and I much prefer Xbox One's UI for a living room media centre. I also love Microsoft's strategy of unifying their OS. However, the games look better on the PS4 (might be different with a Xbox One X) and that's really what it's all about in the end - right?
 

Deleted member 20297

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,943
Without any understanding of the SIZE of the user base, it is meaningless. I can make and market my own game console, and have me being its only customer. And that would generate user engagement that literally reaches infinity. Since the only user of the console also is 100% invested in its ecosystem.
But we have more than none of the understanding of the userbase in this case.
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
The only real takeaway that matters is Nadella is talking up Xbox and the opportunity of expanding gaming within Microsoft. He's investing more and giving investors his reasons. Microsoft is pushing back in which generally means good things for gaming ecosystems as this is where Microsoft innovates and leads when they are aggressive. Innovative Xbox is good for gaming. Competition is good for gaming. Even if you never intend to invest in the Xbox ecosystem, aggressive innovative Xbox will result in a push to all the competitors and ecosystems.
 

Bitsmurch

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
325
The way that some of you are triggered by positive Xbox news is hysterical. Every thread, every time lol

Because its not particularly good news. Ms useebase appears to be more hardcore as a percentage.

Sony may actually have more hardcore users and also a large swathe of casual users.

Ms here seem to be using percentages to obfuscate what's actually happening.
 

Bitsmurch

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
325
The only real takeaway that matters is Nadella is talking up Xbox and the opportunity of expanding gaming within Microsoft. He's investing more and giving investors his reasons. Microsoft is pushing back in which generally means good things for gaming ecosystems as this is where Microsoft innovates and leads when they are aggressive. Innovative Xbox is good for gaming. Competition is good for gaming. Even if you never intend to invest in the Xbox ecosystem, aggressive innovative Xbox will result in a push to all the competitors and ecosystems.

A gaming company after decades in the business talking about investing in games.

Is it me but shouldn't they have been doing that since day one?
 

tbyte64

Member
Dec 30, 2017
396
MS all over this gen. a load of market spin and utter bollocks and no focus on what's actually important...games. Yeah, it gets said a lot, but it's crazy how everybody knows what they need other than Microsoft.
What's important to every company is revenue. Microsoft is in the last position for userbase so they can't really cut it in the single player games business. So if you're an investor, you'd ask them the question: how are you going to grow your revenue from this position? And Nadella's answer was that while their player base is small, they're "engaged" aka monetizable to spend a lot of money on mtx and gaas.

In other words, this is to explain their investors their strategy with Xbox going forward: monetise the whales and Xbox diehards instead of trying to capture Sony/Nintendo markets which they've failed to do since the inception of the Xbox division. It makes sense as well for them to go in this direction because services has always been their forte at Xbox compared to anything else.

Phil Spencer will try to sell tall tales of coming exclusives to people who still believe it as he has for the past n years, and he may even throw a few bones towards them like crackdown 3, new halo, etc, but make no mistake, the message from Nadella is clear:

Microsoft will focus on gaas and gamepass going forward and will not challenge Sony in games.
 
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Spanic

Member
Oct 31, 2017
403
US
Wow, this tread. I guess if you are not number one then why are you even here am I right?

If the Xbox division can keep their high engagement and increase the user base with extra investment, then that's all they should care about.

As someone who runs a few websites for a small company, this is exactly the type of data i am required to give my boss in our monthly meetings.
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
A gaming company after decades in the business talking about investing in games.

Is it me but shouldn't they have been doing that since day one?

Near Day 1 they bought Bungie and created many other partnerships. Over a decade later after mistakes, they restructured. During restructures, most companies don't go on spending sprees. They're now stable and investing again.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,577
Without any understanding of the SIZE of the user base, it is meaningless. I can make and market my own game console, and have me being its only customer. And that would generate user engagement that literally reaches infinity. Since the only user of the console also is 100% invested in its ecosystem.
Sure if you want to be completely disingenuous and ignore the install base we know about, and how XBXLive, Gamepass, EA Access and the like are thriving, how they have growing subscriber numbers... Sure then we could argue about not knowing anything. Come on now don't be ridiculous.
 

Deleted member 17952

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,980
Seems to be a constant running theme with Microsoft threads at least. Two threads on the front page:
  • Title: "Microsoft confirms they're investing in gaming, big focus"
  • Data based on: "Operating expenses grew 5% (up to 3% CC) driven by investments in Gaming, Search, and AI engineering"
What does any of that even mean? 5% of what? From what? How much of that is even related to gaming at all? How where they able to derive the title from that?

Or on the Sea of Thieves thread titled "Superdata: Sea of Thieves player count totaled over 2 million during its launch month of March". Okay, so what does that mean? How much time did each player play on average? How much is on sales? How much is on game pass? What does it mean revenue-wise?

And now we're here. "Highest Engagement Console". As per Matt it's just the average player engagement. I'm confused how some seems to infer that it means that there are "more" XBox users that are more engaged at a unit level. There isn't any data available to support anything.

TL;DR: MS PR always vague enough that everyone infers whatever they want with a mild sprinkling of whatever their confirmation bias is.
 

Spanic

Member
Oct 31, 2017
403
US
Instead of 1v100 being a game you install, Mixer should just host the game at Mixer Studios every week as well as other game shows involving streamers. Something like this will draw a lot of people to Mixer.
 

Deleted member 17952

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,980
Sure if you want to be completely disingenuous and ignore the install base we know about, and how XBXLive, Gamepass, EA Access and the like are thriving, how they have growing subscriber numbers... Sure then we could argue about not knowing anything. Come on now don't be ridiculous.
How do you even know that the subscriber numbers are growing when we don't even know the numbers on any of these things.
 

Deleted member 5028

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,724
People should know the number of attempts Microsoft had trying to make gaming worse for everyone with anti consumer practices. Guess they dont unfortunately.
I'm not sure people remember all of the bad shit Sony-tendo have done in the past two decades either.
Pretty sure backwards compatibility (Jim Ryan) was a big anti consumer gaffe, as was refusing cross platform play (protecting the kids right?) and who can forget them ripping out the Emotion Engine from the PS3? Not because it was expensive- tho it played a part - but because people were still mainly playing ps2 games on the console and not ps3 ones.
 

Bgamer90

Member
Oct 27, 2017
750
I don't think it's nonsense but it's normal for the bigger user base to be lower on average .
Like for eg i think on average there are more XB live members than there on are on PSN+ members .
Of course avgs don't tell you everything and you have to look at all the data .
I do agree with you that a stat like this benefits the console with the lower userbase (lower denominator causing a higher percentage). However, this is still a good stat to bring up for Xbox as it shows that even though Xbox sales are around half of PS4, Microsoft is most likely getting more than half of the money that Sony is getting from their users.

With all of the moves that MS has been making lately, it definitely seems that they would prefer to have users that regularly spend money on additional content and services in comparison to people that simply buy an Xbox and never buy any additional content outside of a few $60 retail games every year.
 

panda-zebra

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,737
Despite not having paid online just yet, I'd have thought currently Nintendo would be tops in this regard, but their numbers maybe don't fall into the period being discussed or potentially it's just Microsoft not considering Switch competition again as it's not a console? Sorry if this point was made a dozen times already, thought it worth considering.

For the thousands time, this is not an article to convince Sony fans of buying a Microsoft console. It's a metric important to them as it is reaffirming for them to invest more into Xbox to make even more money. The justification is that people not only buy the hardware but also software and spend more money on a game per average as gamers on competing consoles.

Spend more money in the ecosystem, not necessarily on some "average game", but then that's a given as the userbasae is under half Sony's and we all know the users you gain in the tail aren't the heavy spenders vs early adopters and mid-gen buyers. And given that, and the audience this was presented to, it's kind of a moot point, nobody should be in the dark regarding this phenomenon if they are at all invested and shouldn't be sitting back applauding this "news". It's not massively clear from what he said, but it seems likely they don't see growth coming from a swell in masses of new users, but more by creating more opportunities to further monetise the existing early-gen buyers who are more free-spending. Mixer, xb1x, gaas - it all points to this and makes perfect sense. It seems a sound strategy for where they're at.

Calling this false or spin or whatever tells more about the people saying you than about microsoft. Hell, even a mod came to this thread to explain what it actually means and people still play dumb. How is that even possible?

Anyone claiming this is false is unquestionably wrong. But those claiming it as spin, as long as they qualify it accordingly, are not necessarily incorrect. The statement as made paints a picture that, in passing and heard or read briefly, is designed to show the situation as it stands in the best light possible. At a glance, the statement looks as though they've worked a position whereby they've managed to monetise their userbase to a greater extent than the competition, and they have... but that's entirely normal given they've sold less than half the units, as the mod you mention clearly stated:

... it's also pretty normal. The more a console sells, the more it sells to a less "hardcore" player base, which means the spend per player will be diluted. The first 10 million people to buy a system will always be more valuable than the next 10 million, and so on.

...so yeah, it's most definitely a form of spin as it's intended to convince the audience they've concocted a winning formula (which they have to an extent, and continue to improve upon, but it's very carefully cherry-picked and presented to the audience in a highly controlled fashion). In 360 days it was units, then it was MAU and now it's engagement/monetisation. If units and volume was winning they absolutely would be using those obvious and unequivocal metrics, and might not necessarily have to have this same focus on harvesting additional cash from the existing core users.

... tells more about the people saying you than about microsoft...

That's never a good point to make... the same could be said about any one member posting on this or any other forum, not one of us is entirely objective, we all have our own perspective and out own way of seeing things. Your own sentiments in there matters are patently clear in your postings, for instance.
 

reMiX.

Member
Mar 6, 2018
116
They're growing and profitable. Engagement leads to monitization. Monitization leads to profits.

On the other hand, hate leads to the dark side. You're entitled to you tastes but let go of the hate.

Lol, I just don't get you some of ya'll....

If you're a fan of the platform, great. We're all fans of something... but why the need to jump to their defense? This shit is so weird...

As plenty of peeps have commented, this article CLEARLY has some marketing spin to it... let's just be honest.

We need a thread dedicated to serious fanboyism discussion.. like I'm a huge fan of Toyota, being a Tacoma owner, but I'm not here like, "don't talk trash, let go of the dark side Toyota haterz, they making money growing and profitable" like, what?
 

Kilgore

Member
Feb 5, 2018
3,538
Seems to be a constant running theme with Microsoft threads at least. Two threads on the front page:
  • Title: "Microsoft confirms they're investing in gaming, big focus"
  • Data based on: "Operating expenses grew 5% (up to 3% CC) driven by investments in Gaming, Search, and AI engineering"
What does any of that even mean? 5% of what? From what? How much of that is even related to gaming at all? How where they able to derive the title from that?

Or on the Sea of Thieves thread titled "Superdata: Sea of Thieves player count totaled over 2 million during its launch month of March". Okay, so what does that mean? How much time did each player play on average? How much is on sales? How much is on game pass? What does it mean revenue-wise?

And now we're here. "Highest Engagement Console". As per Matt it's just the average player engagement. I'm confused how some seems to infer that it means that there are "more" XBox users that are more engaged at a unit level. There isn't any data available to support anything.

TL;DR: MS PR always vague enough that everyone infers whatever they want with a mild sprinkling of whatever their confirmation bias is.

Microsoft have increased their total money spent a 5%, and Gaming and Bing drived that increase. That's not PR, is a fact on their quarter results. The superdata thread is about an stimation from superdata, not from Microsoft, Superdata didn't make an stimation of what you're asking, and Microsoft have nothing to say about other company's stimations about their business anyway.

What nadella said is an explanation to investors of why income of the division increased this quarter without a dramatic increase in hardware sales, and what is their strategy to keep growing = increasing the engagement of their userbase. He needs to explain why he's already spending more on gaming. Probably he explained growing on bing too.
 

Xeontech

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,059
So if I make a single console and game and sell it to myself, I'll have 100% player engagement in this market.

The less I sell, the more I gain. Success by reduction. Am I doing it right?
 

Raijinto

self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
10,091
I can see it being true against the ps4, but the Switch? that's a surprise.

Read Matt's comment on the previous page for further clarity there. The Switch would have been a lot more competitive in this area were its paid online infrastructure in place and slightly more full priced games available for it.
 

Deleted member 17952

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,980
Microsoft have increased their total money spent a 5%, and Gaming and Bing drived that increase. That's not PR, is a fact on their quarter results. The superdata thread is about an stimation from superdata, not from Microsoft, Superdata didn't make an stimation of what you're asking, and Microsoft have nothing to say about other companie's stimations about their business anyway.

What nadella said is an explanation to investors of why income of the division increased this quarter without a dramatic increase in hardware sales, and what is their strategy to keep growing = increasing the engagement of their userbase.
If there is any mention of "income" whatsoever on any of the reports would you link it? As I seem to have missed any of it.
 

Kilgore

Member
Feb 5, 2018
3,538
If there is any mention of "income" whatsoever on any of the reports would you link it? As I seem to have missed any of it.
The 5% increase come from their quarter report, where Gaming grow a 16% yoy thanks to game sales and services. It was not an isolated claim, it was part of the report to investors.

And the thing about engagement was Satya Nadella talking again about their results during the quarter result presentation.
 

BlacJack

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
1,021
THIS SO MUCH

These threads are terrible. Reset-Sony-Era indeed.

Eh, most of it isn't hate, just eye roll at the rhetoric. Most posts are defense force because everyone doesn't think this is super awesome or w/e. Sony got the same shit when they were down, and how can we so quickly forget the NintenDOOM years. People only recognize negativity when it hits their conole of choice. It's the easy way to spot the fanboys.

Xbox doesn't get any more hate than anyone else. It's just they are low man right now. You'll disappear when they come back up and everyone be hatin on Nintendo/Sony again.
 

Deleted member 17952

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,980
The 5% increase come from their quarter report, where Gaming grow a 16% yoy thanks to game sales and services. It was not an isolated claim, it was part of the report to investors.

And the thing about engagement was Satya Nadella talking again about their results during the quarter result presentation.
You mentioned "income". Again, please link me with where I can find that "income" report.