Megaman really gets too much undeserving recogniton

PeakPointMatrix · Sep 18, 2021

Nali said:
MN9's mostly held back by the cheap looking art and some iffy stage design. It's otherwise a pretty solid MM clone that got dragged down by the chatter around it more than its own qualities.

My feelings on the game as well. I'd add it was also clearly a victim of having too many overlapping ports on wildly different platforms (wasn't it like 9 of them??). I actually did think the dash-chaining system was a bit novel. Either way the controversy like you said was worse than the game, which was pretty decent all things considered.

megaStryke · Sep 18, 2021

Wislizeni said:
No, you're right OP, and this is kind of why I didn't get the hate for Mighty No. 9. Ugly graphics and corny VA aside (the latter of which Megaman is no foreigner to), that game completely scratched my itch for a new Megaman game at the time. As a backer I was not personally burnt out by it. I get the hate at Inafune for prematurely milking it, and at Comcept for the unfulfilled backer rewards, but IMO the game was fine, and pretty in-line with most of the Megaman games, even if it didn't line up with the best games in the series.

For all its good ideas, Mighty No. 9 was too broken as an end product. If you want a better realized version of Mighty No. 9, play Mighty Gunvolt Burst, which has all the level themes and bosses from MN9 in a much cleaner, much more polished package, plus a bunch of extras like a completely customizable weapons system that allows you to modify even bullet size and trajectory.

TrashyPanda · Sep 18, 2021

Nali said:
Nice! 2's got more iffy bits of design than it usually gets credit for, but it's still a wonderful game. Every one is a little bit different and has its own fans, but hopefully you find more of them you like. :D

For sure there are some parts that annoyed me, for instance the instant KO beam run on one of the stages. Having the save state really made it manageable and not rage inducing however. I'll probably continue linearly from here since there is 5 more games in this set to play.

Bxrz · Sep 18, 2021

Wise said:
MMx4 is good

The best X game by far!

rulerk1 · Sep 18, 2021

I swear this thread is deja vu

chiller · Sep 18, 2021

X4's physics changes fuck me up and I'm trash up against Colonel and 3rd Form Sigma (lol).
I usually bounce off it but maybe I should go back and give it another try.

The music rules though (obviously).

MAGMA DRAGOON IS A WAR CRIMINAL

Servbot24 · Sep 18, 2021

Davey Cakes said:
The exception to that would be Network Transmission which is underrated IMO.

Absolutely :)

NT isn't a great game per say, but it deserves better than to be forgotten!

ZeoVGM · Sep 18, 2021

Lozjam are you planning on coming back to your own thread that you created to reply to people who pointed out the factually incorrect elements of your OP?

andymcc · Sep 18, 2021

ZeoVGM said:
Lozjam are you planning on coming back to your own thread that you created to reply to people who pointed out the factually incorrect elements of your OP?

he barely returned to his stupid GB vs NES thread. Dude is just stirring the pot.

Servbot24 · Sep 18, 2021

ZeoVGM said:
Lozjam are you planning on coming back to your own thread that you created to reply to people who pointed out the factually incorrect elements of your OP?

It's a troll thread. Any reply he left would just be more disingenuous nonsense. Considering his history of troll threads he might be worth an Ignore.

ZeoVGM · Sep 18, 2021

Davey Cakes said:
I think it would be easy to reach consensus on the worst Mega Man games. The fans are as consistent as the games themselves. We know what we like.

The exception to that would be Network Transmission which is underrated IMO.

Servbot24 said:
Absolutely :)

NT isn't a great game per say, but it deserves better than to be forgotten!

I love Network Transmission. The difficulty is poorly balanced but I had a lot of fun with it overall. Crossing my fingers that it ends up on a potential Battle Network collection eventually -- or at least some "best of" Mega Man collection that includes stuff like Network Tranmission, Legends and Command Mission.

chiller · Sep 18, 2021

Servbot24 said:
Absolutely :)

NT isn't a great game per say, but it deserves better than to be forgotten!

It's at the very least some of the best music in Mega Man, which is really saying something.

Lozjam · Sep 18, 2021

ZeoVGM said:
Lozjam are you planning on coming back to your own thread that you created to reply to people who pointed out the factually incorrect elements of your OP?

Why hello there.

While there are perhaps some mistakes within my OP, overall, they really do not matter too much. Or in fact inconsequential.

I apologize for getting a good amount of specific games wrong(though X3 being one of the stronger Megaman games, that's a hill I can die of)....

However, I believe the sentiment remains the same. I really believe that Megaman should not be heralded as a beacon of retro games, and certainly not the top dogs of the NES and SNES ranking lists respectfully. There were far better games at the time, that furthered the platforming genre, while still being quite a bit better.

I also did this thread, to get a tempurature reading, and I have found a surprising amount of people agreeing with me-at least more than I thought. It used to be irrefutable that Megaman was this amazing series(I am thinking of the hype cycle of Mighty No. 9). But honestly, it's interesting the surprising amount of people willing to call it average(myself included). Still I don't want to shit on you for loving Megaman, I simply like getting a read on Era.

Also, I want to say to you all.

The Battle Network games are amazing, but I don't count them as mainline Megaman games. The same with Legends, even though they have not played them.

ZeoVGM · Sep 18, 2021

"Perhaps I was wrong about a lot of things but none of that matters."

Yeah, definitely a troll thread.

chiller · Sep 18, 2021

All you ended up doing was starting a Mega Man general discussion thread.

Lozjam said:
There were far better games at the time, that furthered the platforming genre, while still being quite a bit better.

Okay, I'm genuinely curious and stupid enough to bite.

OtakuCoder · Sep 18, 2021

I'm from the UK and Megaman wasn't much of a thing here during the NES days. Didn't help that the PAL conversions were awful (track down the MM2 PAL soundtrack if you can; it's like nails on a chalkboard). I'm in my 30s and my first ever MM game was the first MMBN on GBA.

This isn't meant to say anything about the quality of the series, just that it wasn't a smash hit everywhere in the world.

Servbot24 · Sep 18, 2021

Lozjam said:
I also did this thread, to get a tempurature reading, and I have found a surprising amount of people agreeing with me-at least more than I thought. It used to be irrefutable that Megaman was this amazing series(I am thinking of the hype cycle of Mighty No. 9). But honestly, it's interesting the surprising amount of people willing to call it average(myself included). Still I don't want to shit on you for loving Megaman, I simply like getting a read on Era.

It's really not that interesting. You could make a thread called "Zelda sucks" and 10% of replies would agree with you. Every series ever has at least a few detractors.

blueredandgold · Sep 18, 2021

Repeating my earlier post, which platform is best for the Legacy Collections?

Lozjam · Sep 18, 2021

andymcc said:
he barely returned to his stupid GB vs NES thread. Dude is just stirring the pot.

Hey now, I was actually correct in my assumption in that thread. A majority of people liked the Gameboy over the NES. Get over yourself, it's not an attack on you or anything. The reason I stopped replying, was simply because the discussion was dying down, and I didn't want to prolong and bump the thread.

We are getting way off topic now, but yeah, I just wanted to say that.

There are a lot of things, that older folks will tell younger folks in games. Megaman was influential and one of the best series on NES, SNES, ect. Even modern assumptions like, "bloodborne is amazing" to shut down criticism to people who simply don't like it.

I really like challenging the conventions of these notions and seeing whether people agree, because there is often a silent majority. Gaming has changed since you grew up, and tastes have as well. I think merely the notion that we can look at series critically, and see for example, that Megaman barely pushed the needle sales wise, and was barely existent in Europe as well is really important.

Instead of people feeling crazy for thinking the same as I do, I have seen a lot of people come up in my threads and be like, oh yeah, I feel like that. Or it challenges their notions, or people just hate me. Anyone of these responses are fine, but I think it's really important discussions to have nonetheless.

Servbot24 · Sep 18, 2021

Lozjam said:
I really like challenging the conventions of these notions and seeing whether people agree, because there is often a silent majority.

But the premise of the thread was you making up a convention that doesn't exist. You are not some brave guy challenging the status quo with your big daring ideas.

chiller · Sep 18, 2021

what's everybody's favorite robot master, mine's heatman

cvxfreak · Sep 18, 2021

On the sales point, it might look like the best selling Mega Man game only reached 1.5 million, but that doesn't include the myriad of rereleases since then. It's likely closer to 5 million people have played the first 5 or so Mega Man games throughout the decades.

Weltall Zero · Sep 18, 2021

Lozjam said:
This series, is not good. Even Megaman fans talk about the bad quality of many of the games. Megaman X, Megaman 2 and 3, and Megaman X3 are really the only games considered great.

Uh, X2 and particularly X4 are among the most beloved entries.

Judau · Sep 18, 2021

Lozjam said:
Instead of people feeling crazy for thinking the same as I do, I have seen a lot of people come up in my threads and be like, oh yeah, I feel like that. Or it challenges their notions, or people just hate me. Anyone of these responses are fine, but I think it's really important discussions to have nonetheless.

It just seems like you're shitting on a beloved franchise for your own amusement. You may as well be saying "Mario games suck" or "The Street Fighter series is overrated", since you'd very likely get the same responses, from fans and non-fans alike.

Lozjam · Sep 18, 2021

josh924 said:
It just seems like you're shitting on a beloved franchise for your own amusement. You may as well be saying "Mario games suck" or "The Street Fighter series is overrated", since you'd very likely get the same responses, from fans and non-fans alike.

Though I am not even saying Megaman games suck. I simply think people gave the series too much credit, compared to where the overall reception of the games. I even say so in my OP.

chiller · Sep 18, 2021

Using the "silent majority" rhetoric on intellectual properties is wild.

Mega Man haters are being silenced!

andymcc · Sep 18, 2021

Lozjam said:
Though I am not even saying Megaman games suck. I simply think people gave the series too much credit, compared to where the overall reception of the games. I even say so in my OP.

you're basically wanting to strip the historical context of the series for some weird modern critique of it that kind of judges the games in a vacuum?

inner-G · Sep 18, 2021

Lozjam said:
Though I am not even saying Megaman games suck. I simply think people gave the series too much credit, compared to where the overall reception of the games. I even say so in my OP.

They do deserve the credit, though.

Kain-Nosgoth · Sep 18, 2021

Lozjam said:
Though I am not even saying Megaman games suck. I simply think people gave the series too much credit, compared to where the overall reception of the games. I even say so in my OP.

But that's in your OP

Next, lets talk about the quality of the games.
This series, is not good. Even Megaman fans talk about the bad quality of many of the games

mopinks · Sep 18, 2021

Mega Man 2 is pretty much the best selling third party game on the NES that's not based on a licensed property or a Dragon Quest

it was a pretty big deal

Lozjam · Sep 18, 2021

andymcc said:
you're basically wanting to strip the historical context of the series for some weird modern critique of it that kind of judges the games in a vacuum?

Actually the opposite.

For example, the Final Fantasy community would be eager to love Final Fantasy 1. But in those same breaths, people also admit that Final Fantasy 1 didn't set the sales charts on fire, and didn't hit the mainstream a bit. FF1 sold a similar amount to many of the NES Mega Man games. The same thing applies, I feel like Mega Man fans have been somewhat accepted to be a mainstream NES game, when it wasn't big compared to its contemporaries.

I love FF1, but I am not afraid to admit it was old, archaic, and used to be quite a niche series back when it released.

In discourse in the community, I know many people are surprised of Mega Man's sales numbers, because gaming publications and fans conveyed it to be bigger than it is.

B-Dubs · Sep 18, 2021

Honestly, I weirdly agree with the OP. MegaMan just lives in the house Mario built. It's a cool idea, but it's not revolutionary or anything.

Servbot24 · Sep 18, 2021

B-Dubs said:
Honestly, I weirdly agree with the OP. MegaMan just lives in the house Mario built. It's a cool idea, but it's not revolutionary or anything.

But MegaMan being revolutionary doesn't matter. Fans like the games because they are fun, not because they are innovative. I have no idea why OP is even talking about innovation, other than to make up a false argument that is very easy to tear down.

0.1% of games are revolutionary. It's such a pointless criteria to judge a game by.

Fans also don't give a shit if MM sells a lot. Another pointless argument from the OP for his own weird jollies.

EggmaniMN · Sep 18, 2021

This thread really just proves how bonkers and out of touch with reality this forum is and how absolutely no one should listen to opinions from it.

Deleted member 33120 · Sep 18, 2021

Lozjam said:
In discourse in the community, I know many people are surprised of Mega Man's sales numbers, because gaming publications and fans conveyed it to be bigger than it is.

Once again, who cares about sales numbers when it comes to discussing whether it deserves its reputation as a classic? You're setting up a starman and then defeating it with dumb arguments.

EllipsisBreak · Sep 18, 2021

Lozjam said:
Actually the opposite.

For example, the Final Fantasy community would be eager to love Final Fantasy 1. But in those same breaths, people also admit that Final Fantasy 1 didn't set the sales charts on fire, and didn't hit the mainstream a bit. FF1 sold a similar amount to many of the NES Mega Man games. The same thing applies, I feel like Mega Man fans have been somewhat accepted to be a mainstream NES game, when it wasn't big compared to its contemporaries.

I love FF1, but I am not afraid to admit it was old, archaic, and used to be quite a niche series back when it released.

In discourse in the community, I know many people are surprised of Mega Man's sales numbers, because gaming publications and fans conveyed it to be bigger than it is.

There are multiple flaws with this. A big one being, you're putting the popularity of Mega Man on the same level of Final Fantasy 1 based on the fact that the latter game sold almost as many copies as Mega Man 2. You're ignoring the fact that there are six Mega Man games on NES. Its popularity wasn't limited to the sales of any one game.

Also, Final Fantasy did make waves. One game selling a million copies back then was huge. It's not like the modern industry, where games are ridiculously expensive and time-consuming to make, and a large portion of all game sales need to be concentrated into a few big AAA titles for the business to make sense. NES games were easier to make, so companies made more of them, and sold maybe a few hundred thousand of each. Only the big hits got past a million.

MegaManTrigger · Sep 18, 2021

Lozjam said:
Actually the opposite.

For example, the Final Fantasy community would be eager to love Final Fantasy 1. But in those same breaths, people also admit that Final Fantasy 1 didn't set the sales charts on fire, and didn't hit the mainstream a bit. FF1 sold a similar amount to many of the NES Mega Man games. The same thing applies, I feel like Mega Man fans have been somewhat accepted to be a mainstream NES game, when it wasn't big compared to its contemporaries.

I love FF1, but I am not afraid to admit it was old, archaic, and used to be quite a niche series back when it released.

In discourse in the community, I know many people are surprised of Mega Man's sales numbers, because gaming publications and fans conveyed it to be bigger than it is.

No, you're downright being revisionist at this point, and weirdly enough, you're viewing the game with the lens of 2021 instead of using historical context to make an informed opinion.

There's a reason why that franchise was literally called "Final Fantasy." Squaresoft had always refused to give Sakaguchi permission to create a new RPG series because of the perceived low sales until Dragon Quest was released in Japan, and set the sales on fire. When RPGs proved to be popular, that's when Squaresoft allowed Sakaguchi to create Final Fantasy, but that it was likely never going to become a series. Hence the naming "Final Fantasy."

It was influential at a time where RPGs were limited to Ultima and Wizardry before Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy became bigger names.

Has it aged well? Of course not. You'd be hard-pressed to find a NES game/series that aged well. But that doesn't mean it wasn't influential or important to the industry as a whole. And using sales number the way you did is so idiotic. You do realize the landscape of gaming in 1985 isn't what it is now? Acting like 1mil in 1985 is equivalent to 1mil in 2021 is nothing short of asinine and ignorant to the marketplace at both eras.

Furthermore, if we go by your logic of higher sales = more relevancy, why is Excitebike irrelevant now if it sold 4mil? Shouldn't it be the opposite?

ReyVGM · Sep 18, 2021

UNDERSERVED?

What the heck is going on in ERA? The other day someone said there's an overwhelming demand for a sequel to the terrible Eternal Champions, and now someone says Megaman doesn't deserve recognition?

Protodude · Sep 18, 2021

Man, what is even going on here anymore.

mopinks · Sep 18, 2021

ReyVGM said:
What the heck is going on in ERA? The other day someone said there's an overwhelming demand for a sequel to the terrible Eternal Champions, and now someone says Megaman doesn't deserve recognition?

one of these people was definitely goofing

StrangeRoboMemory · Sep 18, 2021

Lozjam said:
In discourse in the community, I know many people are surprised of Mega Man's sales numbers, because gaming publications and fans conveyed it to be bigger than it is.

The Mega Man games were million copy sellers on NES. DuckTales sold 1.6 million, Mega Man 2 sold 1.5 million. Is this really evidence that DuckTales is more influential, as you claim in the OP (I'd hardly call the difference between 1.6 and 1.5 million to be that massive) than Mega Man? It's a petty contrast that doesn't sell your argument at all.

In any case, as far as sales, the big selling games (million plus sales) on NES were mostly one of the following: massively promoted first party titles (Mario, Zelda, etc.); sports games that came out very early in the life of the system so that they were adopted right away by early users; tie-in games like Top Gun and Ninja Turtles; and stuff that was huge in Japan like Dragon Quest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_Nintendo_Entertainment_System_video_games

What you won't find in the big selling NES games? Tough action games like Ninja Gaiden, Contra, Castlevania, not even Double Dragon. These were hard and challenging games that had more niche appeal for the nuts who were into that stuff. They didn't have the mass appeal of Mario and Donkey Kong, which even mom and dad would play with the kids. For the average user, the Mega Man games are closer in difficulty and style to Contra and Castlevania than they are to Mario.

The fact that the Mega Man titles are relatively challenging, not part of a first party promotion, not tied to a cartoon, not adapted from an arcade game, and are still million sellers is a testament to their quality.

And that's just humoring you on the sales issue, because sales are zero indication of the quality of a game, its influence, its impact on the medium, etc. Your argument is just faulty on every single front.

Replicant · Sep 18, 2021

B-Dubs said:
Honestly, I weirdly agree with the OP. MegaMan just lives in the house Mario built. It's a cool idea, but it's not revolutionary or anything.

There wasn't any other type of game like mega man before he came along. What a terrible take. Almost as bad as the OP's.

MegaManTrigger · Sep 18, 2021

B-Dubs said:
Honestly, I weirdly agree with the OP. MegaMan just lives in the house Mario built. It's a cool idea, but it's not revolutionary or anything.

Going in a non-linear pathway when platformers were strictly linear isn't revolutionary?

By your logic, I guess Contra, Castlevania, etc. aren't revolutionary because they all lived in the house that Mario built.

Richietto · Sep 18, 2021

The Megaman slander in here is sending me!!! I can't!

InfiniteKing · Sep 18, 2021

My dislike of Megaman just goes to heights of being apathetic about it. I forget it even exists. It's fine OP. But uhh well you opened this can of worms, there's a lot of fans.

MatildaMuggins · Sep 18, 2021

True. Nobody actually likes or cares about this series. You can't even point to any entry that a typical forum goer would identify as one of the greats to compensate for its lack of popularity. Megaman is simply irrelevant and Capcom agrees!

Protodude · Sep 18, 2021

MatildaMuggins said:
True. Nobody actually likes or cares about this series. You can't even point to any entry that a typical forum goer would identify as one of the greats to compensate for its lack of popularity. Megaman is simply irrelevant and Capcom agrees!

Man. I can't even tell what's trolling or genuine anymore.

JusDoIt · Sep 18, 2021

This is the punching downest thread in a while.

Arsic · Sep 18, 2021

X series is banger after banger.

Change my mind.

circuit · Sep 18, 2021

If we're comparing to Contra and mentioning MMX7, then bringing up Contra 019 is fair game:

Contra: Rogue Corps - Fucking Embarrassing (Jimpressions)

http://www.patreon.com/jimquisitionhttp://www.thejimquisition.comhttps://www.thejimporium.comIt's almost impressive just how wrong this game is. As a Contra ...

www.youtube.com

Megaman really gets too much undeserving recogniton

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