Damn. They missed an opportunity to have a float for Fang and Vanille.
Regardless, that's super awesome to see, especially with the comments from Yoshida in that article. It makes me happy.
[Major Spoilers] One of the endings in Catherine: Full Body gets extremely transphobic... moreso than that original (OP Updated Feb. 17)
- Thread starter HylianSeven
- Start date
Regardless, that's super awesome to see, especially with the comments from Yoshida in that article. It makes me happy.
That's a toxic and incorrect viewpoint. See the bolded:
ah less worst
If Rin was the wrestler than it would have been BAAAD because I was thinking they cut that sentence because THERE IS NOW a famous trans woman in japanese wrestling.
Let me get this straight .... your best case scenario implies trans woman trick heterosexual man like traps tricks bears ?
I get what you're saying, but I think you can play Persona 2 and appreciate the gay romance option in it, as it's not disrespectful to the gay community, despite the intentions behind it. This is very rarely the case with other content catering to the fujoshi crowd, where male homosexuality is fetishised in a very dehumanising way and more often than not include elements of rape.
Yeah, although the cynic in me thinks the reason the dig was removed had nothing to do with the creators realizing how shitty it was since they still dead name her twice in the credits.
I'd be surprised if it was based on my (admittedly limited) experience with the mainline SMT series.
Yeah. But I think the lack of an official denial of their relationship says something, even if it's regrettable they're not flat out confirming it. Although I feel like they're not exactly beating around the bush when they confirm that these two ladies sleep in the same bed, despite there being other options, in one of the novels. While Hideo Baba confirmed Sorey and Mikleo to be a canon couple, Bandai Namco totally walked that back after he left and they've now been downgraded to being just "best friends".
I don't think you have to worry about that. Granted, I'm not too familiar with SMTIV, but generally speaking romance has never been a big topic in the main series.
I asked earlier in the thread, but in case you missed it, would you mind sharing any links to those Japanese LGBTQ communities discussing the game? I'm really interested in reading up on it. I Googled a bit and all I could find was a couple of blogs posting translations of western reactions to the game.
I mean, I certainly can't speak for everyone, but it's very unlikely that such language would be used to describe anything but a girl.
Nononono, the opposite, I'm saying that this was a common (and justified) criticism of the original, how they were playing for laughs the fact that Toby lost his virginity to Erica, and he says he wants his V-card back. In this timeline, if we assume they still got together in the future, there isn't even the possibility for that to still be true, since Toby knows Erica even before the transition and her coming out as a woman, which wasn't the case in the original game (and original timeline in Full Body as well, I suppose).
To be honest I find Atlus' treatment of gay people in the Persona games much more offensive.
They are treated as a joke. Or 'don't touch them you'll catch the gaaaaaay!'.
They are treated as a joke. Or 'don't touch them you'll catch the gaaaaaay!'.
Assuming Erica had been handled in a respectful and elegant way in the game that actually resonated with people (and especially trans people), I'm guessing these credits would still be a big issue, but what would be the appropriate way to credit the voice actor that played the character in scenes both before she transitioned and after?
Just as Erica. Also actually have her listed as Erica and not EricA.
I don't know why people keep doing this.
Romance is by and large a non entity in Persona 2(both halves)
Erica Anderson.
No "EricA", no deadname. That's it. She's the same character, with the same name.
Absolutely, the deadnaming is still a huge issue, but if they were at least trying, then it's an issue that can perhaps be fixed in the future with enough feedback. The original take of "Catherine went back in time to make everyone happy, which means Erica is now a man" is just some next level vile bullshit, there's no amount of criticism that can fix that, it's just hateful.
Yeah, the intention with EricA (Eric Anderson) is pretty clear.
I wonder if they thought it was better switching the order, but it really doesn't make a difference. That's something that should be easy to fix in the localized version, at least.
Got it. I didn't realize deadnaming would also apply to a story that depicts a character both before and after their transition. So should the person's post-transition name also be retroactively applied when discussing the character in scenes when she still identified as Eric and was shown to be a man?
Yes. Same goes for when you discuss a trans person in real life.
That was certainly the impression I got as someone who is still learning on this stuff, with the name in parantheses being the "non-real" name.
Have you played the other SMTs?
Aside from the 3DS Abomination Apocalypse, the series doesn't even glance in the direction of sexuality/romance/social issues.
And as such the pairings are, within the context of the game, not offensive. That was my point.
I think so, yeah. It's one thing when characters in context refer to her by her old name, because at the time she was known by that name, but the credits should just call her Erica.
EDIT: To try to give a reason to that, the thing is, Erica is who she really is, not who she became, or who she chose to be. Transgender people figure out that they're trans, and then they come out as trans, they don't flip a switch and "become a woman", so even at the time she went by as Eric, she was still the same person.
Yes, both to games to real people and wikipedia pages
Erica was always a woman and was always erica.
Even the best possible reading of this new content seems to still produce a feeling of uncertainty, annoyance or discomfort among trans people. That much is clear after going through the thread.
I do not know if the localization could help, at least to an extent, but it's a pity that ATLUS in Japan did not take into full consideration the criticism the original game had received for its portrayal of precisely this subject matter.
I do not know if the localization could help, at least to an extent, but it's a pity that ATLUS in Japan did not take into full consideration the criticism the original game had received for its portrayal of precisely this subject matter.
Hashino's been doing this shit for years now. People should have realised how problematic he was with how Kanji and Naoto were handled in P4.
Then it's not quite as bad as it seemed, thankfully. But pretty awkward execution
How many outfits does Toby have in Catherine? I honestly cannot recall him being dressed in anything other than a mechanic.
It's easy to understand this, but definitely going to take some time to wrap my head around this:
Thanks for the explanation in the edit. That makes sense, but I guess I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that the name isn't something she chose. It's obvious that her gender is not.
Basically you want to always refer to trans individuals by the name they identify as. Their old name is totally irrelevant.
In practice, a person's name retroactively changes things. Someone who changes their name, their accomplishments aren't credited to their original name in general, 'least not in my experiences.
No, not at all. In real life, yes of course a person's old name is irrelevant, but I'm talking about crediting a voice actor that plays a character that holds separate names at different parts of the story.
In a Wikipedia article, for example, you often see that person's "original name" or "name of birth" posted in the initial paragraph. That's basically why I was trying to figure out the proper etiquette.
Yeah, but recommending p2 for its gay romance is taking its context and flipping it to give the wrong juxtaposition. Cause despite there being several lgbtq characters in Persona 2 duology the romantic inclinations of all but one of them are more background than narrative aspects.
We know Jun is gay, we know Tatsuya is bisexual, we know anna is gay. But those aspects don't play into the narrative except Anna's
That's not a particularly good point, imo, because Erica did get a redesign just for that scene. if they were just staying consistent, or cutting corners, it would be easier to just have her transitioned during the ending. They went out of their way to redesign Erica for that scene. The only way to explain this without something questionable happening (though not as vile as it initially appeared) is that it's just a plot hole. Plain and simple.
Or maybe it isn't, do we know for sure the line about him starting recently on that job is still in Full Body?
Why are people bending over backwards to try and give the scene a more charitable impression when all you have to do is look at Atlus past games to understand their intent.
There's a pattern here. At best they treat LGBT+ people as a joke, a punchline. At worst we're considered degenerate, the scum of the earth.
Stop making excuses and face reality.
There's a pattern here. At best they treat LGBT+ people as a joke, a punchline. At worst we're considered degenerate, the scum of the earth.
Stop making excuses and face reality.
It's the same character, it doesn't make a difference. The old name is still irrelevant.
It depends how much attention this gets, if it's like the G&W thing then yeah they will do something, but if it's like the Fighter Spirit battles it'll just be ignored and forgotten.
Yeah, but I didn't do that. I was merely commenting on that it didn't handle LGBT characters as poorly as Hashino's games do. And sadly, even what little is there in P2 is still better than what most other JRPG's have to offer in this regard.
The name is, but that's exactly why it should be used. If her parents knew she was a woman, they wouldn't call her Eric, is basically the point. That name is "a mistake", and evokes a whole life of struggling with gender identity.
This to me feels almost as though Hashino heard the criticism and lashed out. I would hope that they do something literally anything for the localization to make this right because as a polyam person, this game was extremely instrumental in helping me discover my identity and in some ways validating that, so I would like to enjoy the re-release. For now, I don't think I can and that sucks.
Do you really think people would be confused if they only wrote the actual name.
I've been feeling very conflicted towards Atlus for a while now.
P5 got me so angry in spots. This new development is very disappointing.
And it doesn't even make me want to boycott their games. It just makes me feel apathetic. They could announce Persona 6 tomorrow and I don't think I'd be the least bit excited.
P5 got me so angry in spots. This new development is very disappointing.
And it doesn't even make me want to boycott their games. It just makes me feel apathetic. They could announce Persona 6 tomorrow and I don't think I'd be the least bit excited.
On that note:
https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2017/05/persona-5-put-me-back-in-the-closet.html
I think this article is well worth reading.
Well I think it depends on the situation. Kanji and Naoto could be charitably read as grappling with Masculinity/Feminimity in a nuanced way, though obviously thats not the only read. Here though... it's pretty fucking undefendable.