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Saucycarpdog

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,441
theconversation.com

Luca, Disney and queerbaiting in animation

The latest Disney-Pixar film has been seen as containing queer themes, but what is the animation studio trying to achieve?
Back in June, Disney released Pixar's latest feature film, Luca. Set in the fictional seaside town of Portorosso, Luca is a story of adventure, escape, difference and found family. It's also, according to many, a narrative about a gay relationship – even if the film itself stops short of confirming that.

The themes explored in Luca have since led to accusations of "queerbaiting" - a phenomenon in which LGBTQIA+ relationships are hinted at, but never clearly expressed. As a queer animation researcher, I know first hand how pronounced that problem is in film and TV.

The issue with Luca comes down to the difference between queerbaiting and queer coding. Queer coding is when LGBTQIA+ creatives insert queer themes, characters and relationships into content without making them explicitly so, in order to fly under the radar of conservative censors and critics. Queerbaiting is when creators hint that characters might be queer in order to attract progressive audience but without providing any real queer representation that could risk losing conservative audiences.

So is Luca an example of queer-baiting?
We first meet the titular character, adolescent sea monster Luca Paguro, as he tends to the family's goatfish. He stumbles on a human artefact, awakening a keen desire to leave his everyday life behind in search of adventure above the waves. This adventure arrives in the form of Alberto Scarfano, a fellow sea monster who lives on the surface. The two boys quickly form a passionate friendship, building a makeshift Vespa and dreaming of travelling the world together.

The film can easily be read as queer. Not only do Luca and Alberto form a close achillean relationship (a masculine attraction that may or may not include romantic or sexual feelings), the themes and story beats also touch on common LGBTQIA+ experiences. Because the sea monsters of Portorosso's waters fear humans and forbid their children from entering the human realm, Luca must hide his excursions to the surface and, by extension, his relationship with Alberto.

Luca's parents discover their son's secret and try to send him to live with his uncle in the ocean's depths, but the pair escape to Portorosso. Above the water, Luca and Alberto pass as human. Yet, like closeted members of the LGBTQIA+ community, they fear the day that their secret will be discovered. In a touching celebration of queerness and found family, the townspeople actually welcome Luca and Alberto with love and acceptance when they are outed as sea monsters, enough so that other long-closeted sea monsters feel safe enough to reveal themselves.

Yet despite these queer allusions, the film quietly reasserts the heteronormativity ingrained in Disney's traditional storytelling. Instead of remaining together, Luca and Alberto are split when a third character, Guilia, entices Luca to follow her to school in Genoa in what is implied to be a far more mature and productive pairing. Luca, therefore, walks a very fine line between queer-coding and queer-baiting.
 

NookSports

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,215
Based on what I've seen on TikTok and elsewhere, not that many queer people feel baited by Luca. It's being embraced as a full blown queer movie.
 

Hollywood Duo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,214
That's quite the reading of the final scene and it ignores the rest of the movie. In the climax of the movie he doesn't save the girl, he saves the other "boy". To say nothing of the whole "2 very close boys have to hide their true identity" from fearful townspeople.
 
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Tuck

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,589
Queer baiting can be an issue, but Luca as an example of it? Give me a break.

Luca is an example of LGBT people being so desperate for LGBT content and representaiton that they try to insert it into any media that can even slightly be intrpretted that way, even if the creator says outright that was not their intent.

And I know that because I am one of those LGBT people who does that. But thats not an issue with Luca, but an issue with lack of genuine representation industry wide.
 

rude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,812
This person's reading of the plot comes across as completely unhinged. Yes, the movie can be interpreted that way, but Pixar obviously didn't envision this entire story as some sort of gay coming-of-age romance. The ending with Luca going out into the world to get an education being construed as Pixar "asserting heteronormativity" is particularly crazy.
 

NookSports

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,215
Luca is an example of LGBT people being so desperate for LGBT content and representaiton that they try to insert it into any media that can even slightly be intrpretted that way, even if the creator says outright that was not their intent.
My read on the Luca situation is that Pixar did make their first gay film, but set it pre-puberty to have plausible deniability.
 

Deleted member 99164

user requested account closure
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Jun 20, 2021
122
Queer baiting can be an issue, but Luca as an example of it? Give me a break.

Luca is an example of LGBT people being so desperate for LGBT content and representaiton that they try to insert it into any media that can even slightly be intrpretted that way, even if the creator says outright that was not their intent.
Yeah. I feel like I see that a lot these days. Like, I've seen people who genuinely think Supergirl has been hinting at or building up to Supercorp, despite the show doing nothing to encourage that story at all.
 

Regulus Tera

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,458
Luca, the movie, is unapologetically gay and there's no baiting about it. The discussion from the Pixar executives is another thing entirely.

Hell the credits song is a freaking love song about a long distance relationship. There is nothing subtle about it!
 

nonoriri

Member
Apr 30, 2020
4,259
My read on the Luca situation is that Pixar did make their first gay film, but set it pre-puberty to have plausible deniability.
This is my take too. There's no way the themes could be accidental; the movie is queer as fuck. Disney just isn't brave enough to own it.

The alternative is that some naive straight people just happened to hit every queer coming of age theme completely on accident and no one said anything? Lol no way.
 

Frodo

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
4,338
My read on it, is that the creators and animators would probably have gone full gay, but Disney.


Personally, as a queer person, it doesn't read as queerbait to me. It's queer cinema.
 

crienne

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,223
That's quite the reading of the final scene and it ignores the rest of the movie. In the climax of the movie he doesn't save the girl, he saves the other "boy". To say nothing of the whole "2 very close boys have to hide their true identity" from fearful townspeople.

Also Luca's not really too emotional having to say goodbye to Giulia before he finds out he's going too. But with Alberto's goodbye? Crying, hugging, and a "touch as long as we can" hand-hold. If you swap Luca's gender, there'd be ZERO doubt that Alberto had feelings. But suddenly, because they're two boys, it's obfuscated and "they're clearly just friends".

And yes, I know the creators have come out and said it's not gay at all. Too bad. Y'all are, as authors, very dead and we're going to hold our gay Italian fish-boys up as queer heroes in modern animation.
 

StreetsAhead

Member
Sep 16, 2020
5,106
I haven't seen Luca yet but I feel like "queerbaiting" is becoming one of those terms that's being misused to the point of it losing its actual meaning.
 

xxracerxx

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
31,222
"Instead of remaining together, Luca and Alberto are split when a third character, Guilia, entices Luca to follow her to school in Genoa in what is implied to be a far more mature and productive pairing."

Damn her for enticing Luca to go to school.
 

Deleted member 46429

Self-requested ban
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Aug 4, 2018
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Put it this way: I'd have checked out this film if not for the fact I so strongly associate Disney with "no gays allowed," and no, their latest first gay character does not count lmao. Given how easily the narrative--as described in the article--lends itself to a gay allegory combined with Disney's known stance that gay men are, broadly, not "Disney appropriate" (see Alex Hirsch/Gravity Falls) especially when the main characters are pre-pubscent, I can 100% see this being a queer story that simply turned to subtext to appease papa disney (i.e. queercoding, not queerbaiting).
 
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Starphanluke

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Nov 15, 2017
7,358
Queer baiting can be an issue, but Luca as an example of it? Give me a break.

Luca is an example of LGBT people being so desperate for LGBT content and representaiton that they try to insert it into any media that can even slightly be intrpretted that way, even if the creator says outright that was not their intent.

And I know that because I am one of those LGBT people who does that. But thats not an issue with Luca, but an issue with lack of genuine representation industry wide.

Maybe with some things, sure. But Luca? That movie is gay as fuck. The creators can publicly say whatever they want (with a Disney sniper pointed at them), the movie speaks for itself.
 

poptire

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
10,046
This person's reading of the plot comes across as completely unhinged. Yes, the movie can be interpreted that way, but Pixar obviously didn't envision this entire story as some sort of gay coming-of-age romance. The ending with Luca going out into the world to get an education being construed as Pixar "asserting heteronormativity" is particularly crazy.
Yeah, I agree with you. In fact, that final scene cemented the positive gay messaging of the movie for me.
 

SixtyFourBlades

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,864
Queer baiting can be an issue, but Luca as an example of it? Give me a break.

Luca is an example of LGBT people being so desperate for LGBT content and representaiton that they try to insert it into any media that can even slightly be intrpretted that way, even if the creator says outright that was not their intent.

And I know that because I am one of those LGBT people who does that. But thats not an issue with Luca, but an issue with lack of genuine representation industry wide.
This person's reading of the plot comes across as completely unhinged. Yes, the movie can be interpreted that way, but Pixar obviously didn't envision this entire story as some sort of gay coming-of-age romance. The ending with Luca going out into the world to get an education being construed as Pixar "asserting heteronormativity" is particularly crazy.
It's this in my eyes. I got no kind of gay vibes from the film at all. Just two really good friends. It's not until I came to the internet did I start hearing about this.
 

Sumasshu1

Member
Oct 27, 2017
102
I've seen the movie twice and this is the first I've heard of it being interpreted that way. I just don't see it.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
30,030
The ending's dichotomy is not going to school vs being with Alberto, it's going to school vs buying a vespa; going to school is a more mature decision than buying a scooter just because it's cool. The ending is a marshmallow test. The boys spend the movie focused on what's directly in front of them but eventually recognize that they, or at least Luca, has broader ambitions that will require some sacrifice in order for them to both grow as people. It's a pretty standard coming of age theme which can definitely be read through a gay lens but I think pretty clearly is not the primary way it was intended to be read.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
9,439
My read on the Luca situation is that Pixar did make their first gay film, but set it pre-puberty to have plausible deniability.

Yeah you can read a broader message from it that isn't just specifically about LGBTQ acceptance but there is no way it's not the main message of the film, very thinly covered from the surface.

Like what other group of person has in the past and is still vilified and called monsters but is "hiding" in plain sight.

How'd you lose your hand? "Its how I came into the world".

The two unassuming Grandma roommates? You too are sea monsters!?
 

Good4Squat

Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,154
It's up to your own personal interpretation which is completely fine in my book. I thought their relationship was very well done, no matter how you choose to read it.
 

NookSports

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,215
Yeah you can read a broader message from it that isn't just specifically about LGBTQ acceptance but there is no way it's not the main message of the film, very thinly covered from the surface.

Like what other group of person has in the past and is still vilified and called monsters but is "hiding" in plain sight.

How'd you lose your hand? "Its how I came into the world?".

The two unassuming Grandma roommates? You too are sea monsters!?
The whole Luca / Alberto relationship also reminded me a lot of non-sexual crushes I had before I realized I was gay. It was almost uncanny tbh
 

Conditional-Pancakes

The GIFs of Us
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Jun 25, 2020
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the wilderness
This movie is so queer. Is it queerbaiting? I'm really not sure it's a good example of the trope.

And this thread makes me want to post Zzavid's reaction to this movie, which I thought was delightful.

 

rude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,812
Like what other group of person has in the past and is still vilified and called monsters but is "hiding" in plane sight.
...jewish people? To me, it's easier to interpet this film as a blanket story for discrimination and acceptance in general, rather then one exclusively about gays. Like with Zootopia and the foxes or carnivores or whatever being "black people" which was also a bit of a ridiculous interpretation.
 

ExoExplorer

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Jan 3, 2019
1,249
New York City
The film definitely has queer themes even if non of the characters identify as lgbtq+

Doesn't matter if the boys are just friends. There's enough other content, that people can read the movie as queer.

Like a big part of the movie is accepting people no matter who or what they truly are. This statement is true even for non-queer people. Though it's such a big part of queer identity you can say the movie is queer.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,122
Isn't queerbaiting when they claim something is gay but then it isn't really?

This is like the opposite of that.
I thought it was when you make something gay but claim that it isn't in an effort to jerk around a desperate audience

For example going like:

main-qimg-983a98f812751ccefb836993f3d736eb.webp

wjtonm3d8bf31.jpg

LawfulScalyIcelandgull-size_restricted.gif

and then saying "It's just a brotherly relationship, trust us"
 
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nonoriri

Member
Apr 30, 2020
4,259
Yeah you can read a broader message from it that isn't just specifically about LGBTQ acceptance but there is no way it's not the main message of the film, very thinly covered from the surface.

Like what other group of person has in the past and is still vilified and called monsters but is "hiding" in plain sight.

How'd you lose your hand? "Its how I came into the world".

The two unassuming Grandma roommates? You too are sea monsters!?
Yeah, and honestly the scene that gets me is the one where Luca joins in and calls Alberto a "sea monster" with the other humans and it's like... yep sure do have memories of joining in and calling things "gay" like all the other kids were doing so no one knew I was also gay? Yeah, oof. That one landed.

I thought it was when you make something gay but claim that it isn't in an effort to jerk around a desperate audience
No, it's usually about playing it up in the show and at conventions but never committing (like in Supernatural) to it really happening.
 

m4st4

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,505
Queer baiting can be an issue, but Luca as an example of it? Give me a break.

Luca is an example of LGBT people being so desperate for LGBT content and representaiton that they try to insert it into any media that can even slightly be intrpretted that way, even if the creator says outright that was not their intent.

And I know that because I am one of those LGBT people who does that. But thats not an issue with Luca, but an issue with lack of genuine representation industry wide.
I'm with you on this! Luca's intentions were pure, Disney just wasn't ready for it, to fully commit, even today, sadly.
 

ExoExplorer

Member
Jan 3, 2019
1,249
New York City
Queer baiting can be an issue, but Luca as an example of it? Give me a break.

Luca is an example of LGBT people being so desperate for LGBT content and representaiton that they try to insert it into any media that can even slightly be intrpretted that way, even if the creator says outright that was not their intent.

And I know that because I am one of those LGBT people who does that. But thats not an issue with Luca, but an issue with lack of genuine representation industry wide.
I'd argue even though the creator explicitly said it's not a queer film. It's still queer as fuck lmao
 

Surakian

Shinra Employee
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
10,927
My read on the Luca situation is that Pixar did make their first gay film, but set it pre-puberty to have plausible deniability.
This is my take as well. This film is too queer-coded to be anything but an intentional queer coming of age story kept on the down low.

There is no way a bunch of people accidentally made a blatantly queer-coded film. There had to be some intent behind certain choices. These things don't exist in a vacuum.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
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Oct 25, 2017
21,476
This seems more like queer coding that queen baiting to me.

I feel silly. I got 3/4 through the movie and didn't even recognize that theme. I haven't finished the movie because my kid didn't really like it. It's strange to me that the idea of Luca going off to school would be deemed a parallel to him choosing the "traditional lifestyle" because I'd think traditional lifestyle from his perspective would be staying underwater.
 

Tuck

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,589
I'd argue even though the creator explicitly said it's not a queer film. It's still queer as fuck lmao
It is. But it can just as easily be interpreted exactly as the creator intended.

The film absolutely can stand as a gay coming of age allegory, as others in this thread have explained, but I don't think it's at all fair to accuse the film of queerbaiting.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,439
...jewish people? To me, it's easier to interpet this film as a blanket story for discrimination and acceptance in general, rather then one exclusively about gays. Like with Zootopia and the foxes or carnivores or whatever being "black people" which was also a bit of a ridiculous interpretation.

Fair point, LGTBQ aren't the only group that could fit that descriptor. I still think there are too many other examples that feel more line in with queer acceptance.
 

MIMIC

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Dec 18, 2017
8,353
So is Luca a gay movie or not? Because the first time I saw the trailer, I thought sorta thought it was.
 

nonoriri

Member
Apr 30, 2020
4,259
Maybe I worded it wrong but that's what i'm getting at
Fair, a lot is nebulous anyway. In my mind, in queerbaiting they don't usually outright deny that it's gay because they want to keep those fans engaged (hence the bait) but it's basically just a farce and ever actually depicted on screen. There's rarely denial but lots of plausible deniability.
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
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Oct 25, 2017
20,861
The director based the film on his own childhood experiences and has not revealed himself as queer. He has also said he is not against LGBT interpretations of the film because the sea monster angle makes for obvious allegory, but that he didn't direct the film intentionally with queer representation in mind. I watched the film as one about friendship, but I am also not against queer readings of it.

I think where it gets a little untoward is when people read malice into Luca and hold it up as an example of Disney deliberately doing shitty queer pandering that they can then sell in anti-LGBT markets, that something was TAKEN from queer audience members, and that's a shame for such a cute movie.
 

ExoExplorer

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Jan 3, 2019
1,249
New York City
It is. But it can just as easily be interpreted exactly as the creator intended.

The film absolutely can stand as a gay coming of age allegory, as others in this thread have explained, but I don't think it's at all fair to accuse the film of queerbaiting.
Oh yeah, that's true. People being able to read the movie as queer isn't the same as someone officially coming out and stating it's a queer movie. Death of the author and all that helps people make their own opinions.

I agree the film is really far from being queerbaiting.
 

Doomguy Fieri

Member
Nov 3, 2017
5,281
There is zero sexuality or romance in Luca, and the characters are barely gendered. You could easily swap the two fish people for girls and have the fishmonger be a boy and no story beats change. You could have all three of them be boys or girls and same, no impact to the plot. I actually feel like all the trappings of a gay story are there, but this is a case of all smoke, no fire.
 

El_TigroX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,224
New York, NY
I just liked that it was a story of two boys and their friendship...? There aren't many movies like that. You want to see starved for content - there's not a lot of stuff in animation on an annual basis with boys having a connecting friendship.
 

Dandy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,473
After I watched this movie I immediately googled Pixar Luca LGBTQ. I was surprised to read the creator denying it.
 

NookSports

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,215
hold it up as an example of Disney deliberately doing shitty queer pandering
Yeah this is the wrong read IMO. Would it be better if Luca was openly a gay movie? I actually don't know. I think about me as a kid in a very conservative country... I don't know that I would've been allowed to watch it if it was explicitly gay.
 

Surakian

Shinra Employee
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
10,927
I just liked that it was a story of two boys and their friendship...? There aren't many movies like that. You want to see starved for content - there's not a lot of stuff in animation on an annual basis with boys having a connecting friendship.
Literally most media involving two male characters is usually about their friendship or if we use the colloquial term "bromance".
 

El_TigroX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,224
New York, NY
Literally most media involving two male characters is usually about their friendship or if we use the colloquial term "bromance".
Which is why I said animation to restrict that conversation - even in other medium those bonds are usually exaggerated, often about "getting the girl/saving the princess" or conquering something. You don't have a lot of stuff about connection.

I mean, if it exists - let me know about it, because I genuinely haven't seen much like that.
 

Einbroch

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,062
So is Luca a gay movie or not? Because the first time I saw the trailer, I thought sorta thought it was.
It's not intended to be, but the director has said that if you want to read it that way, you can. And you totally can. The symbolism is there. But it's not intended, and it isn't intended to market to LGBTQ specifically in this regard, ala bait them.

Which is why I don't believe it's queer baiting and it's a shame that a cute movie (either about friendship or love, your choice) is getting dragged for this. You can absolutely view it how you want, but to slam the movie for this seems off base. But I'm a straight, white, CIS dude, so I may be missing something.