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Let’s talk about the fuckery that is rubberband AI.

Lightning Count

Lightning Count

Member
Jan 27, 2019
16,083
Fuck off
Like many of you, I own a New Nintendo 3DS, it's my go to portable machine as unlike the Switch I can easily put it into my pocket, I mainly use it on journeys via bus/train to avoid burning through my phone battery.

Well one of my favourite features is the library of classic games on the system, it allows me to dip back into nostalgia and pine for the days of my youth. I have a few titles on there.

Super Mario Kart
Earthbound (need to finish this one)
Super Punch Out
Street Fighter Alpha 2
Streets of Rage 2
Ace Attorney Trilogy
Resident Evil Revelations (physical version)

These are my go to games for long trips. Of these titles by far the one I have sunk the most hours into is Super Mario Kart, I had the original on the SNES back in the day, I beat it with every character on every difficulty back in the day and I still play it regularly on trips, especially because an entire cup can be blasted through pretty easily in 15 - 20 minutes.

This brings to one of the series long running tricks to increase difficulty rubberband AI.

What that essentially means is it makes it so the AI is always competitive, if you race ahead the AI will keep up, if you are not so great the AI slows down a bit to give you a chance.

Now Mario Kart features locked in rivals for certain characters, so if you pick Koopa Troopa as I do, you can always guarantee Yoshi will be hounding you from start to finish and will basically always finish in second place behind you (unless you crash right at the end which sucks).

Now every so often I like to stick it this system and mess with the results by keeping a red shell and waiting until the end then slowing down letting the AI pass and shooting it off.

This my friends is when the real fuckery begins! So earlier today I do just that midway into the final lap of round 2 of the flower cup, Yoshi spins out and ends up in fourth place. I continue on in first victory all but assured, however a ways back Yoshi is defying the laws of reality by moving at warp speed and taking back second place within 10 seconds.

Now this is what pisses me off as games that employ this method allow the AI at will to activate certain choice lines of programming that allow to break the rules of the game and outright cheat. Included but not limited to.

Greatly exceeding normal maximum speed.
Activation of key items at will (Luigi and Mario with their damn stars, making themselves invincible to weapons and obstacles)
Ability to dodge at will certain obstacles.
Unaffected by own item use, for instance player can be hit by their own weapon backfiring the AI is invulnerable to this.

Now, ERA, I want you to post your experiences with this and let us collectively vent our frustration regarding this particular flavour of fuckery. I know Motorstorm is particularly notorious for this brand of fuckery, with some races being damn near impossible to win in later stages because of it.
 
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Deleted member 12129

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I thought it was the Burnout series' biggest drawback. Doesn't matter how badly you're doing, you know you will catch up. Doesn't matter how perfect you're driving, the AI is the same distance behind you. Having to take into account AI patterns in a racing game ruins the competition aspect far too much.
 

Deleted member 6263

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Is Mario Kart Switch super bad about this? Been wanting to get a Switch for a while to play w/ my wife but she doesn't play many games and I wouldn't want her to be frustrated.

Edit: Actually, it may help her because all she'll end up getting is stars lol
 
kubev

kubev

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,533
California
Yeah, I hate rubber-banding. I haven't noticed it happening too egregiously lately, but it used to really put a damper on my enjoyment of Forza Horizon 4 at times. It was also a serious problem when racing against Ravenwest in the original GRID.

Lightning Count said:
Activation of key items at will (Luigi and Mario with their damn stars, making themselves invincible to weapons and obstacles)
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I think this happens in newer games. I barely feel as though I'm playing against the characters themselves, as it just feels like the game itself it trying to destroy me. In MK8D, someone will activate a lightning bolt, which *should* rob everyone else of items. Of course, that screws me out of my defensive items, but somehow I'll get hit by a couple of blue shells or something shortly thereafter. I don't think the CPU characters get their items from blocks, even if it looks like they do; I honestly think the game restocks them at will and with whatever it pleases.
 
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Toxi

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,551
Stiltzkin said:
Is Mario Kart Switch super bad about this? Been wanting to get a Switch for a while to play w/ my wife but she doesn't play many games and I wouldn't want her to be frustrated.

Edit: Actually, it may help her because all she'll end up getting is stars lol
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It has rubber band AI, but the rubber band AI is only noticeably annoying at high skill levels. I would totally get it.
 
Secretofmateria

Secretofmateria

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The forza horizon games have always had some severe ass rubberbanding. Ive straight up watched cars make super tight turns without dropping speed at all
 
Kyrios

Kyrios

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Oct 27, 2017
14,754
Stiltzkin said:
Is Mario Kart Switch super bad about this? Been wanting to get a Switch for a while to play w/ my wife but she doesn't play many games and I wouldn't want her to be frustrated.

Edit: Actually, it may help her because all she'll end up getting is stars lol
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I honestly haven't noticed too much of it, both on Wii U and Switch versions. More so on higher cc levels.
 
ShinUltramanJ

ShinUltramanJ

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Oct 27, 2017
12,950
I feel like Ridge Racer was guilty of rubber banding as well. Races feel almost scripted with the way they play out.
 
Xevross

Xevross

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Oct 28, 2017
2,049
Yep I hate it. I think it needs to be in Mario Kart (and any kart racers with items) as its meant to be for players of all ages and skill levels, but it is sometimes excessive and could be implemented better. Like you said, I don't think AI should be able to break the game physics to catch up, they should just drive perfectly for a while or get a more favourable item selection.

Other games though it can be horrible. More realistic racers like NFS and Grid just really shouldn't have it. Even though they're technically arcade they're still proper racing games without items and the like, so there is no real need for rubber-banding. Good, easily-adjustable difficulty and assist settings are all you need. Not only is rubber-banding AI annoying but its just less satisfying to play against. Slowly working your way up through the field and just getting into 1st place with seconds to go is so much more fun than flying to the front straight away and then having ridiculous AI all over you for the rest of the race.

The biggest offender I ever found was The Crew 2 and I think it eventually got patched. It was awful in that game throughout but there was one notorious race where the opponent AI would just fly past you at the finish line and it was basically impossible to win no matter what you did. It caused me to quit the game and wait for a patch, and I think they must have adressed it because when I came back months later I won the race easily first time.
 
Mantrox

Mantrox

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,919
Rubberbanding AI's worst part is that it takes away your sense of skill progression.
No matter how good or how bad you are, the opponent is right there, miliseconds away from you.

It's like you can tell you are getting better, but somebody always keeps moving the goal posts further away.

Nevermind Mario Kart...
That one just creates a stupid meta game of trying to be in 2nd or 3rd just enough time to push into 1st on the last stretch.
 
Sande

Sande

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,000
I had a weird experience with Rirt Rally where at first there seemed to be an insane amount of rubberbanding, but then the guy wrecked his car in 2 consecutive rallies, completely ruining his whole season. If the game was really simulating him trying to keep up with me and making more mistakes as a result, that's impressive.
 
Lant_War

Lant_War

Classic Anus Game
Banned
Jul 14, 2018
23,601
Rubberbanding is neccesary in racing games, but it's gotta be subtle. In MKDS if you let some AI pass you you'll see the moment they slow down to snail speed lol.
 
SturokBGD

SturokBGD

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Oct 25, 2017
2,414
Ontario
The worst thing about rubberband AI is games that are built around and encourage a boost mechanic but actually make the game harder when you use it because your opponents only boost when you do. The Motorstorm games became a hundred times easier once I figured that out.

The Forza Horizon games are notable because they lighten up on the rubberbanding the further into the race you are so it's much harder to take a podium place at the start without making it too unfair at the end. It's a nice enough idea but it's very distracting to me now that I know about it (sorry if you didn't and read this!).
 

Deleted member 57990

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I'm not a violent person, but I feel like if I ever met whoever was responsible for Motorstorm's AI I'd never stop punching them in the face.

One track had a very sharp corner right before the finishing line that you HAD to slow down for. I say YOU had to slow down for, because your opponents could take it at full speed with absolutely no consequences. I'd constantly be in first place right up to this corner, when suddenly I'd have to slow down and EVERYONE would hurtle past me.
 
krae_man

krae_man

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Oct 25, 2017
9,623
ShinUltramanJ said:
I feel like Ridge Racer was guilty of rubber banding as well. Races feel almost scripted with the way they play out.
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Ridge Racer 3D on the 3DS was insane. Here's how the AI worked: If you passed a car, it was GUARANTEED to pass you back. There was nothing you could do to stop it. In the early races and the lower placed cars, after a certain number of retakes, the car would back off and let you stay ahead. Once you got to the end half of the single player game, the top 3 cars would always pass you back no matter what you did. It was impossible to stay ahead. The only way to win was to not pass them, stay as close as you can, then triple nitro during the last 1/4 of the last lap and hope you can block them for a second or two while you cross the finish line.

I tried to mess with the AI a couple time and the game glitched out on me. One time when I was in the lead I tried to slam on the breaks with 2nd place drafting me to see what would happen if my slowing down caused the third place car to pass us both. What happened was I got shot 40 feet straight up in the air pointing backwards.

The second time 2nd place was trying to pass me on the outside of a turn and it was one of those turns that starts wider and narrows at the end. I tried to box them out and cause them to slam into the guard rail and slow down. Right before it would have hit the guard rail the second place car forced itself into the lane I was in which caused me to go from 200mph to 0 and it raced down the track at warp 4 and suddenly became a half lap ahead of me.

Don't mess with rubber banding AI, it doesn't like it :lol
 
Instant Vintage

Instant Vintage

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Oct 25, 2017
2,995
I'm going to continue to look for the video on this, but Need For Speed: Carbon has some of the most RIDICULOUS rubberbanding I have ever witnessed.

During the Canyon Runs, you're racing downhill and I guess the game is scripted to keep it close. If you start off racing and then completely stop, you'll see the AI pass you, but then do like 1 MPH as to not completely stop, but give you a chance to catch up.

That's weird, but okay, whatever.

However, if you're in the lead, and you get to a point where the race would be out of reach for anyone else but the AI, the AI decides to rewrite the laws of both physics AND gravity. If you look in the rearview mirror during one of the many S turns, you will see the car literally lift up, turn in the air, and drop down back on the ground doing 150+ MPH just to catch up with you and make it a close race.

I tried it myself multiple times because I couldn't believe it, and yet there it was every single time.

I stopped playing Need For Speed after that. Haven't touched one since. (Though I hear that Heat is actually good this year.)
 

PcPlasticFuzz

Member
Nov 4, 2017
788
The Forza Horizon games have always bugged me with this. Cars going round corners at impossible speeds infront of me!
 

Thronazuug

Member
Mar 30, 2019
244
New CTR. I loved the original but Rubberbanding didn't exist or wasn't this bad to notice. I stopped playing after two sessions. I'm so regretful that I bought the game digital and can't sell it at all.
 
mute

mute

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Oct 25, 2017
25,198
I really appreciated after the fact that a significant percentage of SMK's difficulty was not just winning the races but also driving well enough to stay above 4th and not run out of the 3-4 "lives" you get per cup. Later tracks were very narrow in places and hard to just stay on track, much less beat everyone else and avoid items and whatnot. This was taken out of the series real quick and I miss it quite a bit.
 
OP
OP
Lightning Count

Lightning Count

Member
Jan 27, 2019
16,083
Fuck off
SturokBGD said:
The worst thing about rubberband AI is games that are built around and encourage a boost mechanic but actually make the game harder when you use it because your opponents only boost when you do. The Motorstorm games became a hundred times easier once I figured that out.

The Forza Horizon games are notable because they lighten up on the rubberbanding the further into the race you are so it's much harder to take a podium place at the start without making it too unfair at the end. It's a nice enough idea but it's very distracting to me now that I know about it (sorry if you didn't and read this!).
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Interesting point regarding the boost in Motorstorm. I will have to try that.
 

Dodgerfan74

Member
Dec 27, 2017
2,696
Rubber band AI is trash and part of why I've grown to just forget racing games even exist as a genre after loving them growing up.
 
AStrangerIsHere

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Nov 9, 2017
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The last time I noticed the rubberbanding in a game was when I played Gran Turismo Sport. When I do a custom race, I always disable the boost, but in the campaign, it's here whether you like it or not. It was a peculiar race, I don't remember what track exactly but it was one of the earlier race you can do.

So, in that race, the rubberbanding was so strong that after the long straight at the beginning of the track, when the AI reached the first corner to the left, almost of the opponents who were behind me were able to pass me but because they were going too fast they kept ramming the wall. That was ridiculous.

Edit: and I almost forgot how they kept ramming me too...
 
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linkboy

linkboy

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Oct 26, 2017
13,737
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Petruccis Biceps said:
This pissed me off so much in Super Mario Kart back in the day. Its like "oh I'm getting close to you, time to activate my star over and over again."
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This

Fuck this power star wielding bastard.

imgbin-super-mario-kart-mario-bros-luigi-super-nintendo-entertainment-system-mario-bros-X7KXCwwa6DfX5Ge6Dh1Y80SSP.jpg
 
Corine

Corine

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Nov 8, 2017
870
It's what killed Driveclub for me. Can't stand cheating ai in racing games. Really takes you out of the immersion.
 
icyflamez96

icyflamez96

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Oct 26, 2017
7,590
The hoverboard races in Ratchet & Clank 2016. Your performance literally doesn't matter until the last 30 seconds. (I remember it being pretty much that bad)
 
More_Badass

More_Badass

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Oct 25, 2017
23,637
Rubberbanding is what made Motorstorm so much fun. Being able to break away and not have any opponents around you would have made that game so dull.
 
banter

banter

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Jan 12, 2018
4,127
The newest Need for Speed game does this both with racers and cops and it makes me rage so hard. I wreck a cop going nearly 200 mph and they catch back up in 5 seconds. Absolutely ridiculous. Especially when they have cops in Ford Crown Victorias doing in excess of 160mph. They have tiers of cop cars for seemingly no reason because they all can go 240mph+.
 
AStrangerIsHere

AStrangerIsHere

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Dussck said:
The more 'sim' games, like GT Sport and F1 20xx
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Like Corine said, there's rubberbanding in GT Sport, it's called boost there. But you can choose to deactivate it if you do a custom race (and only there). With it, while racing against intermediate AI, it takes me like 2/3 laps to reach the first place; without it, between 5 or 7 laps.

On the other hand, I don't think there's rubberband in Project Cars 2.
 
yyr

yyr

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Nov 14, 2017
3,477
White Plains, NY
Rubberbanding can be good when used well, like in a PvP game to keep things close/exciting. But when it's vs. computer, yeah, it mostly feels like the computer is cheating.

One of the most hilarious uses of rubberbanding was in good ol' NBA Jam, where it was called "Computer Assistance." If one team got too far ahead, the % chance that their shots would score dropped like a rock, and the other team's % chance skyrocketed. You would see monster dunks bounce off the rim, and full-court shots go in. The secret code to show the shot % made this even funnier. There was another code to disable Computer Assistance, as well.

krae_man said:
Ridge Racer 3D on the 3DS was insane.
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Ridge Racer has had crazy rubberbanding in general. For pretty much the whole series, the game won't let you get into first place too early, and if you're not in at least 3rd by the beginning of the final lap, you might as well quit. The races where you're only up against 1-3 opponents? You have to pass the 1st place car on the final stretch--and not before--or you will lose, because they're almost impossible to block. But it's really satisfying when you win!
 
RadzPrower

RadzPrower

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Jan 19, 2018
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It's not the rubberbanding in Mario Kart that bothers me. It's the items.

Yeah, you might consider that a form of rubberbanding, but it's not quite the same as what you described (i.e. a character is literally moved forwards or backwards on the track like they're attached by a rubberband). It's just so annoying to be pelted by items on the last lap.
 

Deleted member 54292

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This shit made me lose my mind playing Midnight Club. You are already navigating a open world filled with tons of obstacles and sometimes hard to make out routes. It was in your best interest to establish a good lead in case you fucked up, but you can never actually get far enough ahead for it to matter. You could see the cars on your mini map catching up even though you were driving perfectly. Hated it.
 
Filipus

Filipus

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Dec 7, 2017
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kubev said:
Yeah, I hate rubber-banding. I haven't noticed it happening too egregiously lately, but it used to really put a damper on my enjoyment of Forza Horizon 4 at times. It was also a serious problem when racing against Ravenwest in the original GRID.


I think this happens in newer games. I barely feel as though I'm playing against the characters themselves, as it just feels like the game itself it trying to destroy me. In MK8D, someone will activate a lightning bolt, which *should* rob everyone else of items. Of course, that screws me out of my defensive items, but somehow I'll get hit by a couple of blue shells or something shortly thereafter. I don't think the CPU characters get their items from blocks, even if it looks like they do; I honestly think the game restocks them at will and with whatever it pleases.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Secretofmateria said:
The forza horizon games have always had some severe ass rubberbanding. Ive straight up watched cars make super tight turns without dropping speed at all
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
SturokBGD said:
The worst thing about rubberband AI is games that are built around and encourage a boost mechanic but actually make the game harder when you use it because your opponents only boost when you do. The Motorstorm games became a hundred times easier once I figured that out.

The Forza Horizon games are notable because they lighten up on the rubberbanding the further into the race you are so it's much harder to take a podium place at the start without making it too unfair at the end. It's a nice enough idea but it's very distracting to me now that I know about it (sorry if you didn't and read this!).
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
PcPlasticFuzz said:
The Forza Horizon games have always bugged me with this. Cars going round corners at impossible speeds infront of me!
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Forza Horizon 4 doesn't have rubberbanding except in showcase events. The only "rubberbanding" it has is that the cars will slightly slow down if you are like 30 seconds behind (which I feel people dont have a problem with, the problem is the impossible speeds that make your good driving feel useless).

If you feel cars are doing crazy stuff it's probably because you have yet to learn how to drive/tune your car. Manual transmission for example makes a enormous difference when taking corners.

This has been tested and proven, I'm pretty sure you can find some youtube videos on it.

Let me actually get evidence for this since i'm googling a little more and I see conflicting examples.
 
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Minsc

Minsc

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,144
Lightning Count said:
It doesn't. I just gave that as an example of a game I play regularly on my 3DS.

The only examples I gave of rubberbanding are Mario Kart and Motorstorm. Now take your drive by baiting somewhere else please.
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You seem like you're pretty easy to set off huh? I imagine the guy just was curious and didn't read the OP correctly.

Drive by baiting, lmao.
 
WPS

WPS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
366
It's always amusing to break games and watch the rubber band go way past its limit.

Like in Mario Kart 7, you can do the wuhu island skip and then switch to the map view and watch the ai jump to 3* speed so they can still be right behind you after you skip half the track.

Or Sonic Adventure, you can fly around the invisible kill planes to beat tails's first level in 15 seconds and sonic will zoom to the last 10th of the level the second your feet touch the floor.

Edit: I found a link: https://youtu.be/6-ndT-LMZr8?t=218 - despite it being a tool assisted speed run, sonic manages to take the lead in one level. Ironically Eggman plays completely fair when you race him.
 
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