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mantidor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,819
New contrapoints video on envy was decent. Don't agree with everything she says re: envy on the left but I think there's some truth here as well.

This has been her best video building up with the past ones. It's not really about envy just on the left, but as general, unavoidable human condition. She is very clear that the left is not just "envy" and "resentment" as the conservatives say, but a subset, and how envy clearly also exists in the right (immigration, students loan debt, etc).
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,532
This has been her best video building up with the past ones. It's not really about envy just on the left, but as general, unavoidable human condition. She is very clear that the left is not just "envy" and "resentment" as the conservatives say, but a subset, and how envy clearly also exists in the right (immigration, students loan debt, etc).

I think it's one of her best videos. It made me think about how the fear of envy has shaped my life.
 

Birdie

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
26,289
Very telling Rubin doesn't just say you should stop making fun of white men, he quantifies (straight) white men so I guess you're allowed to make fun of him.
 

Temascos

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,573


Not sure if posted already but this video by Tara Monknee about the right-wing press' obsession with the Royal Family is a great one. There's a lot I didn't know and she presents things quite well.
 

Pantaghana

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
1,222
Croatia
Ian Danskin/Innuendo Studios had some sort of talk/presentation for UC Merced about GamerGate, the Alt-Right and radicalisation and it was turned into a YT video.

 

Pantaghana

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
1,222
Croatia
Vadim released part 2 of his dive into Tim Pool





I don't think I saw part 1 posted in here so I'll link that too



But yeah, Tim is just a lazy piece of shit that lied and scammed his way into becoming one of the most popular news guys on YouTube.
 

Pantaghana

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
1,222
Croatia
Big Joel released a video about Alux, a YouTube channel I've never heard of before with 3.7 million subscribers.
It's content can be summed up as "the poor are subhuman" and that is only a slight hyperbole.

 

yagal

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,181
Oh, PragerU did a video called "A Short History of Slavery" with Candace Owens
I really don't know why I watched it, I'm bored I guess. It's what you think it is: crap
I don't even know if someone should make a video about it because it's soo bad
 

Daphne

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,702
I'm halfway through it (about 55 mins) and it feels pretty weird so far. Hoping she pulls something coherent together at the end because right now I'm getting a lot of "are you really a leftist, or just jealous of rich people?" vibes which is uh, a cool pitch from someone who built their brand on class analysis.
I agree with you. It's a strange video but mostly, incredibly incoherent. She keeps talking around the point and adding caveats but it really does come down to "are you really a leftist, or just jealous or resentful of rich people?", repeated over and over again. And it's easy to be annoyed by it, for as she points out, it's a common right-wing argument.

I watched Hasan's reaction to it and that just cemented how much I don't like that guy now. Now I'm depressed.

In the end the motivation for both of them seems to be personal: don't criticise me for getting luxuries or call me a champagne socialist.

So, the whole exercise comes across as fruitless to me. Like watching a youtube drama channel.
 
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Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,307
UK
I agree with you. It's a strange video but mostly, incredibly incoherent. She keeps talking around the point and adding caveats but it really does come down to "are you really a leftist, or just jealous or resentful of rich people?", repeated over and over again. And it's easy to be annoyed by it, for as she points out, it's a common right-wing argument.

I watched Hasan's reaction to it and that just cemented how much I don't like that guy now. Now I'm depressed.

In the end the motivation for both of them seems to be personal: don't criticise me for getting luxuries or call me a champagne socialist.

So, the whole exercise comes across as fruitless to me. Like watching a youtube drama channel.
Thanks for these impressions, saves me from watching these film length videos.
 

Wrenchfarm

Member
Jan 23, 2018
121
I agree with you. It's a strange video but mostly, incredibly incoherent. She keeps talking around the point and adding caveats but it really does come down to "are you really a leftist, or just jealous or resentful of rich people?", repeated over and over again. And it's easy to be annoyed by it, for as she points out, it's a common right-wing argument.

I watched Hasan's reaction to it and that just cemented how much I don't like that guy now. Now I'm depressed.

In the end the motivation for both of them seems to be personal: don't criticise me for getting luxuries or call me a champagne socialist.

So, the whole exercise comes across as fruitless to me. Like watching a youtube drama channel.
Yeah, I did end up watching the rest and it was pretty weak. Not up to her usual quality. I usually defend the "lefttube videos are longer than the LotR" trend but there was nothing here that needed an hour and 40 minutes to say. Pretty self-indulgent (which doesn't help the kind of defensive, finger wagging tone).

Personally, when I see shit like private yachts or the owner's son pull into work at 11:00am in his new Jag, the emotion isn't jealousy, it's outrage. I don't want the fucking yacht or the jag, I hate that the rich need to invent ways to piss away incredible amounts of money while so many of us are barely hanging on (or worse).
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,532
Yeah, I did end up watching the rest and it was pretty weak. Not up to her usual quality. I usually defend the "lefttube videos are longer than the LotR" trend but there was nothing here that needed an hour and 40 minutes to say. Pretty self-indulgent (which doesn't help the kind of defensive, finger wagging tone).

Personally, when I see shit like private yachts or the owner's son pull into work at 11:00am in his new Jag, the emotion isn't jealousy, it's outrage. I don't want the fucking yacht or the jag, I hate that the rich need to invent ways to piss away incredible amounts of money while so many of us are barely hanging on (or worse).

That feeling of outrage is exactly what envy is. We envy the rich not simply because they have nice stuff- but because they have the stability and privileges that we don't have.
 
Sep 12, 2018
19,846
Honestly even beyond her numerous missteps like the whole Buck Angel thing I just find her videos less and less interesting over time. There's a navel-gazing solipsism creeping into a lot of leftist YouTube that I just don't like, missing the bigger picture, not really standing firmly against anything structural and just makes people on the left look hand-wringing and finger wagging.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,307
UK
Honestly even beyond her numerous missteps like the whole Buck Angel thing I just find her videos less and less interesting over time. There's a navel-gazing solipsism creeping into a lot of leftist YouTube that I just don't like, missing the bigger picture, not really standing firmly against anything structural and just makes people on the left look hand-wringing and finger wagging.


After watching Jessie Gender's video on Buck Angel, it's frankly awful that Contrapoints has been giving this guy a platform and defending him for so long. Like there's no denying the amount of transphobia, enbyphobia, and pure harm this man has been a part of. That "trans men fight back" letter is damning. Without Contrapoints, I doubt as many people would know about this guy.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,532
No, it can simply just be wrath, lmao.

If we're gonna be loose with semantics to that extent, I'm gonna start calling Contra a champagne centrist now (instead of in a couple years from now, cause it seems like that's where she's headed TBH).

I'm not being loose with schematics at all. Like I said: "We envy the rich not simply because they have nice stuff- but because they have the stability and privileges that we don't have."

I don't see how anyone could not be envious of how the wealthy can afford outrageous luxuries while others go broke paying for cancer treatments.
 
Jun 22, 2019
3,660
I don't see how anyone could not be envious of how the wealthy can afford outrageous luxuries while others go broke paying for cancer treatments.

Because they can just be wrathful about it, like I also said.
I think it's fucking creepy to be envious of millionaires/billionaires, considering I don't want them to exist.
 
Last edited:
Oct 26, 2017
3,532
Because they can just be wrathful about it, like I also said.
I think it's fucking creepy to be envious of millionaires/billionaires, considering I don't want them to exist.

I don't think billionaires should exist either but I don't see how it's just "wrath". Why are we angry at the rich? Because Jeff Bezos has the power to end world hunger but instead of doing that he goes to space in a giant penis-rocket. Do we not desire the power to end world hunger? Of course, we do. I see no point in pretending otherwise.

I think "envy" would imply that you (secretly?) want to buy the yacht or the jag.

By definition, envy can mean that you desire an attribute that the other person has and/or you wish the other person lacked that quality/possession.

If I am being overworked and underpaid by my boss and he buys a jag for himself, I get frustrated. Why? Do I also desire a jaguar? No, I don't. But do I wish that my boss didn't have that expensive car? Definitely. This emotion is envy. We don't want to admit to feeling envious because envy is a "bad" emotion to have and feeling it makes you a "bad" person. Negative emotions can lead to positive changes in ourselves and society but they need to be handled in a healthy way.

I have issues with Contra (as people have already outlined above in this thread) but I think she made some good points on this subject.
 

Wrenchfarm

Member
Jan 23, 2018
121
God, it's such a sneaky rhetorical trick and watching people jump in the boat over it is depressing.

"No no, don't worry, it's actually good that I'm correcting you. You're not angry about the injustice of the billionaire class, you're envious of them. This is definitely a more accurate description of what's happening and surely won't be used as ammo against socialist positions"
 
God, it's such a sneaky rhetorical trick and watching people jump in the boat over it is depressing.

"No no, don't worry, it's actually good that I'm correcting you. You're not angry about the injustice of the billionaire class, you're envious of them. This is definitely a more accurate description of what's happening and surely won't be used as ammo against socialist positions"
Everything else aside, she does immediately lay out the justifiable reasons to be angry about the billionaire class and wealth inequality.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,532
God, it's such a sneaky rhetorical trick and watching people jump in the boat over it is depressing.

"No no, don't worry, it's actually good that I'm correcting you. You're not angry about the injustice of the billionaire class, you're envious of them. This is definitely a more accurate description of what's happening and surely won't be used as ammo against socialist positions"

That was not the point I was trying to make at all. We can have more than one emotion at once.

Socialists have always been accused of being motivated by nothing but resentment (even though the Right is far more resentful).

I guess we disagree about the meaning of that word, then.

Fair enough. I was using the word "envy" in a broader context than how people use the term in day-to-day life.

I mean is it really that hard to believe some of the resentment the lower classes have towards the upper class comes from envy?

As someone who grew up poor I'd be lying if said that I dont feel some envy seeing some rich celeb driving a luxury sports car or chilling in their mansion. My take on her video is that it's mostly an exercise in self awareness and self evaluation. Those are things a lot of people lack which is why i knew even just watching that video people were gonna be resistant to the idea.

At no point does she claim that the only reason people are leftist is because of envy or that there aren't valid leftist arguments but I knew watching the video that a lot of people were gonna take the worst bad faith reading of this video.

I agree with your assessment. After watching the video, I did take some time to reflect on my beliefs and motivations. I felt much more confident after doing so.
 

Army of Light

alt account
Banned
Sep 5, 2021
98
This has been her best video building up with the past ones. It's not really about envy just on the left, but as general, unavoidable human condition. She is very clear that the left is not just "envy" and "resentment" as the conservatives say, but a subset, and how envy clearly also exists in the right (immigration, students loan debt, etc).
I agree with her. She wasn't saying leftists are envious so much as saying everyone is envious. It was about Envy in general and not a condemnation.
 

Wrenchfarm

Member
Jan 23, 2018
121
Socialists have always been accused of being motivated by nothing but resentment (even though the Right is far more resentful).

Even if you believe that envy plays some role in broad class analysis by the left (which I would argue it doesn't so much as anger over injustice does and those are very different things), why play into that accusation? Why volunteer to make that our brand? You don't see Right Wingers going out of their way to make a nearly 2 hour long video that repeats different variations on "The thing is, I'm just a resentful racist, but that's still valid!"

As a piece of leftist popular media it is a bad place to be. Bad image, bad argument, and one that so easy to take it and use it as a bludgeon against everything else she's ever made and against the left in general. I promise you're going to see it trotted out the next time someone tries to do a hit job on her. But even if you want to say "oh Wrench, you just care about optics and how we're perceived, Contra is trying to say something true about the left even if it isn't flattering" it still isn't a good or fruitful argument!

Really, it feels to me like a game of one-uppsmanship. "Your leftism is not as thoughtful (or maybe as real) as mine because I'm willing to entertain unflattering notions about the left. I'm doing #TheWork even if it leads to nattering self-criticism" wow, have never heard that line before. Can't remember a time a leftist group, movement, or broad political base eroded over picky little in-fights of who was keeping it more real. Love to see one of the most visible voices of LeftTube fall into the same patterns, super. Let's spend nearly 2 hours on it!
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,532
Even if you believe that envy plays some role in broad class analysis by the left (which I would argue it doesn't so much as anger over injustice does and those are very different things), why play into that accusation? Why volunteer to make that our brand? You don't see Right Wingers going out of their way to make a nearly 2 hour long video that repeats different variations on "The thing is, I'm just a resentful racist, but that's still valid!"

As a piece of leftist popular media it is a bad place to be. Bad image, bad argument, and one that so easy to take it and use it as a bludgeon against everything else she's ever made and against the left in general. I promise you're going to see it trotted out the next time someone tries to do a hit job on her. But even if you want to say "oh Wrench, you just care about optics and how we're perceived, Contra is trying to say something true about the left even if it isn't flattering" it still isn't a good or fruitful argument!

Really, it feels to me like a game of one-uppsmanship. "Your leftism is not as thoughtful (or maybe as real) as mine because I'm willing to entertain unflattering notions about the left. I'm doing #TheWork even if it leads to nattering self-criticism" wow, have never heard that line before. Can't remember a time a leftist group, movement, or broad political base eroded over picky little in-fights of who was keeping it more real. Love to see one of the most visible voices of LeftTube fall into the same patterns, super. Let's spend nearly 2 hours on it!

The video was a broad look at how envy is an ever-present constant across human cultures and how it affects us in a variety of ways - it certainly wasn't exclusively about leftist politics and her own feelings (though she did touch upon those topics).

Contrapoints has tackled bad-faith accusations several times in the past as topics for her videos so I don't see how this one is somehow off-brand for her.

She even explicitly states that envy shouldn't be "our brand" - that there are those who are motivated out of genuine love for humanity and that we should focus more on the positive. I almost feel like you watched a completely different video than I did. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ That's fine though- her content isn't for everyone.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,307
UK

Afrikan Esquire TV did a fantastic analysis and historic breakdown of not just the Haitian immigrant crisis but also how American and French imperialism played huge parts in the colonisation.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,345
FAN6DQ_VgAMnPFq






Lol Contrapoints needs to get off twitter.com
 

Pantaghana

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
1,222
Croatia
iilluminaughtii made a 3-part series on OAN and while I wouldn't describe the channel as "leftist," they focus more on history of scams, MLM/pyramid schemes, corporate fuckups and the like, I feel this particular set of videos fits here







So... yeah. OAN is a shitshow. As if that's a surprise.
 

Birdie

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
26,289
I saw Illuminaughtys videos pop up before and I always assumed he was alt-right because his avatar looks like the typical alt-right skeptic avatar lol
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,551
Question to those who watch a lot of leftist youtube: Are there any decent videos on the astroturfing efforts of US chemical companies and polluters?

Looking for info on kinds of propaganda other than climate change denial, since that particular brand of astroturfing has been covered many times already.
 

Pantaghana

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
1,222
Croatia
Question to those who watch a lot of leftist youtube: Are there any decent videos on the astroturfing efforts of US chemical companies and polluters?

Looking for info on kinds of propaganda other than climate change denial, since that particular brand of astroturfing has been covered many times already.
I wouldn't describe these channels as "leftist" but:

Last Week Tonight who just this week released an episode on PFAS (a group of chemicals) and mention advertising there but don't focus on it.
If pharmaceutical companies also fall under the term chemical companies, they also have multiple episodes on the opioid crisis and mention how the Sacklers are trying to repair their image through philanthropy, but that's not really the focus of their videos.

iilluminaughtii I posted above has an entire playlist called Corporate Casket where they go over all sorts of shady shit companies do, her videos tend to focus on specific companies like Bayer and Monsanto (I haven't watched those videos so I can't recommend them), and a few videos are broader looks into a topic, like how "natural" is used in advertising but is unregulated so it doesn't mean anything, and how "organic" is regulated but has its own issues.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,307
UK
Lonerbox did a great deep dive into Lauren Southern and the crusade against NGO rescue boats for European refugees. She's tried to have a less anti-immigration, less neo Nazi turn but don't be fooled. Italian conservative politicians are involved.
 

Pantaghana

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
1,222
Croatia
New video from Tom Nicholas on Veritasium and propaganda




I quite like Veritasium, they have many amazing videos so seeing something like this from them is very disappointing.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,307
UK
Lonerbox did a great deep dive into Lauren Southern and the crusade against NGO rescue boats for European refugees. She's tried to have a less anti-immigration, less neo Nazi turn but don't be fooled. Italian conservative politicians are involved.

Salvini's on trial now, and Richard Gere was involved with the NGO migrant ships at the time. Don't let this far right asshole get away.