Lack of empathy and #metoo

[John Doe]

There has been an outpouring of support for victims that have come forward. However at the same time I've notice a pattern of sorts, where some people's first response is to not express support for the victim or decry sexual violence but their disappointment that one of their favorites was outed as a rapist/abuser. Or an expression of hope that their other favorite artist isn't next.

I don't know why but it just strikes me as odd because it almost feels like the focus is being taken away from the victim's story and ordeal and centering it around yourself and your own feelings. There might be a token acknowledgement of the victim's ordeal but instead the focus is on the poster. Some examples from the Nas thread

God-fucking-dammit.

This dude raised me.

Just. No.

Click to shrink...

Thats a bad look...first Fab ..now Nas...Damn.

Edit:

Obv. Assuming this is true.

Click to shrink...

Terrible stuff! Of all people.. Nas. I'm getting rid of his music I have at home. What a loser.

Click to shrink...

Fucking loved Nas. This kills me. Well, fuck him then. Poor woman had to deal with some bullshit. Looks like I'll be skipping both kanye and his album this summer

Click to shrink...

I don't want to single out anyone but that was the most recent thread so I pulled a few quotes. The same can be found in almost any thread concerning #metoo where the abuser was a popular artist.

Can't we do better? I think #metoo should be about the victims, not anyone's disappointment that their false idol turned out to be just that.

I also want to say something about people denying that certain allegations are true (like Stan Lee's situation). None of us were there and we don't know the people involved. However at the same time, it takes a lot for a victim to come forward and false accusations are extremely rare. If you personally don't believe it, then just keep that opinion to yourself. Whether it be on here, twitter or facebook. The victim involved in these cases probably won't ever read it. But at the same time, its likely that someone who was sexually abused/raped will be reading it and might think, "If people don't believe her story, why would they believe mine?"

 

[BocoDragon]

Our relationship to the story is through the celebrity in question. In the case of the Nas story we do know who Kelis is, but to a greatly lesser degree. In most cases we've never heard of the accuser.

I don't see how it diminishes support for the accuser. The disappointment in the accused celebrity implies we believe the allegation.

 

[Volimar]

Our relationship to the story is through the celebrity in question. In the case of the Nas story we do know who Kelis is, but to a greatly lesser degree. In most cases we've never heard of the accuser.

I don't see how it diminishes support for the accuser. The disappointment in the accused celebrity implies we believe the allegation.

Click to shrink...

Yep. I don't see anything wrong with expressing disappointment and anger in people we thought of fondly who turned out to be shitmeisters.

 

[prag16]

Our relationship to the story is through the celebrity in question. In the case of the Nas story we do know who Kelis is, but to a greatly lesser degree. In most cases we've never heard of the accuser.

I don't see how it diminishes support for the accuser. The disappointment in the accused celebrity implies we believe the allegation.

Click to shrink...

This. Does every reply in such a topic need a disclaimer now?

 

[PorkandBeans]

Only on this forum could you say you hope a certain person never sexually assaults anyone and still get labeled as insensitive.

 

[Blue Sky Noise]

Those people probably see their support, belief and solidarity as implicit and are just offering their individual thoughts so that the thread is not just a constant stream of posts saying "wow poor Kelis". That's how I read it anyway, not as a lack of empathy.

 

[Deleted member 2563]

Our relationship to the story is through the celebrity in question. In the case of the Nas story we do know who Kelis is, but to a greatly lesser degree. In most cases we've never heard of the accuser.

I don't see how it diminishes support for the accuser. The disappointment in the accused celebrity implies we believe the allegation.

Click to shrink...

And we're done here.

 

[zon]

Only on this forum could you say you hope a certain person never sexually assaults anyone and still get labeled as insensitive.

Click to shrink...

I'm sure you could find a subreddit or a tumblr page that does the same.

 

[Deleted member 15428]

You're not alone, OP. I've been saying it multiple times in this forum.

 

[Deleted member 22649]

I don't want to single out anyone but that was the most recent thread so I pulled a few quotes. The same can be found in almost any thread concerning #metoo where the abuser was a popular artist.

Can't we do better? I think #metoo should be about the victims, not anyone's disappointment that their false idol turned out to be just that.

Click to shrink...

If you want to enact positive change, you're going to need to start by not judging the people involved in the conversation by how closely their initial reaction aligns with your own.

This is broadly applicable.

 

[Mona]

If you want to enact positive change, you're going to need to start by not judging the people involved in the conversation by how closely their initial reaction aligns with your own.

This is broadly applicable.

Click to shrink...

Well said

 

[Raven117]

If you want to enact positive change, you're going to need to start by not judging the people involved in the conversation by how closely their initial reaction aligns with your own.

This is broadly applicable.

Click to shrink...

Nice post.

 

[Deleted member 39450]

If you want to enact positive change, you're going to need to start by not judging the people involved in the conversation by how closely their initial reaction aligns with your own.

This is broadly applicable.

Click to shrink...

Spot on.

 

[Khanimus]

More often than not, the only degree of power or connection to these stories that people have is with their relation to the artist. People have the right to reevaluate how they want to engage with that person's work as their only means of responding to such situations.

 

[Deleted member 14002]

Our relationship to the story is through the celebrity in question. In the case of the Nas story we do know who Kelis is, but to a greatly lesser degree. In most cases we've never heard of the accuser.

I don't see how it diminishes support for the accuser. The disappointment in the accused celebrity implies we believe the allegation.

Click to shrink...

Great first post.

It's not a lack of empathy.

 

[uncelestial]

What a gross sentiment, OP. People are horrified, they're processing what's going on, they're talking through their disappointment and disgust, and that's human. Back off.

 

[Kthulhu]

This forum wouldn't exist is people didn't care about the victims.

Our relationship to the story is through the celebrity in question. In the case of the Nas story we do know who Kelis is, but to a greatly lesser degree. In most cases we've never heard of the accuser.

I don't see how it diminishes support for the accuser. The disappointment in the accused celebrity implies we believe the allegation.

Click to shrink...

This.

 

[Deleted member 2102]

This is a sentiment that I've seen thrown around a lot lately, but it accomplishes nothing. People's relations to the artists as fans still involves buying into a persona that said artist constructed. While it's obviously not comparable to the sexual assaults, domestic abuse, harassment, etc that the victims received, there's still a betrayal of trust there and it's natural for people who were fans to feel lied to or manipulated, and therefore hurt. They're still standing with the victims and have already put the victims ahead of their own interests by believing them.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

I'd rather people be disappointed than go the other way and blindly defend whoever their hero is.

 

[GrizzleBoy]

Disappointment toward the accused and empathy toward the accuser arent mutually exclusive.

 

[Barrel Cannon]

I think it's a normal response. We obviously feel bad for the victims but we also have/had a personal attachment to the accused, and we feel a sense of betrayal knowing someone we respected/admired is potentially scum

 

[Powdered Egg]

I don't get the premise. I don't recall a single person defending Nas in the thread. Both Nas and Kelis are popular, the former has had a longer career and this is a male dominated forum. There's going to be more Nas fans than Kelis fans, so I don't see whats weird about expressing disappointment in Nas especially since he's more conscious than your average emcee and is a huge hypocrite if the allegations are true.

If it was no name civilian husband beats Kelis, we wouldn't even be discussing no name civilian husband.

 

[Deleted member 17402]

I don't take issue with people being dumbstruck because an idol has been ousted as something inconceivable. I do, however, take issue with people who can't separate their disappointment in a person versus having sympathy for the victims.

I have a coworker who, through the Cosby and Nassar cases, never even attempted to feign sympathy or support for the victims. He would instead dismiss the allegations as improbable, ask why the victims never came out sooner, claim he was disappointed that they were being accused, and specifically during the Nassar trial made the comment "He looks sad. I believe he regrets whatever they're accusing him of." So on one hand he doesn't acknowledge the accusations as real, but on the other comes to the defense of only Nassar in that he looks like he deserves leniency because his face "looked sad" during the trial. Never once did he remark about the women and say that he felt sorry this happened to them.

He also really hates that a lot of people are now suddenly coming forth and accusing people of sexual misconduct because it's all too sudden and unbelievable for him to qualify.

 

[Rosenkrantz]

I think it's normal. It's not the lack of empathy towards the victims of abuse, it's just that people are disappointed that someone who they were looking up to while growing up, or who they thought were an upstanding guy turns out to be a fucking monster. That makes people angry and they probably feel that they need to get their feelings out there and share them. They obviously care about the victims, care enough to trash someone who they idolized before.

 

[ScandiNavy]

Our relationship to the story is through the celebrity in question. In the case of the Nas story we do know who Kelis is, but to a greatly lesser degree. In most cases we've never heard of the accuser.

I don't see how it diminishes support for the accuser. The disappointment in the accused celebrity implies we believe the allegation.

Click to shrink...

First post has the right idea.
So, no.

 

[Lappe]

Idolizing people you actually don't know is fucking idiotic to say at the least.

 

[Sinneslöschen]

#metoo threads on this forum are 99% pointless. Just a bunch of posts saying "wow person is shitty!"

 

[Hobbesian Thudercat]

Moral grandstanding in platform shoes. The new liberal fashion.

 

[Z-Beat]

I dont think being upset about someone you liked turning out to be shitty is a lack of empathy.

 

[FireSafetyBear]

And imagine there's twice as many blaming and calling accusers liars. Plenty on this forum too.

 

[GrizzleBoy]

Idolizing people you actually don't know is fucking idiotic to say at the least.

Click to shrink...

-_-'

 

[Heisenberg726]

Only on this forum could you say you hope a certain person never sexually assaults anyone and still get labeled as insensitive.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, OP's comments are ridiculous

 

[SugarNoodles]

If you want to enact positive change, you're going to need to start by not judging the people involved in the conversation by how closely their initial reaction aligns with your own.

This is broadly applicable.

Click to shrink...

Could you go a bit more into why this is the case?

 

[Skelepuzzle]

Our relationship to the story is through the celebrity in question. In the case of the Nas story we do know who Kelis is, but to a greatly lesser degree. In most cases we've never heard of the accuser.

I don't see how it diminishes support for the accuser. The disappointment in the accused celebrity implies we believe the allegation.

Click to shrink...

While I don't know if people deserve to be chastised for it...

Specifically hoping that your favorite celeb "isn't next" makes it about you instead of the victim. "Boy I sure hope I'm not disappointed and have to face the moral quandry of still giving them money!"

 

[Ralemont]

Can't we do better? I think #metoo should be about the victims, not anyone's disappointment that their false idol turned out to be just that.

Click to shrink...

#metoo is not just about the victims. One of the primary points of the movement is to expose ways sexual abuse and misconduct are routinely hidden and swept under the rug by those in power such that the general public is unaware of the bad things they've done. Therefore, the general public becoming aware of these things and recognizing people they previously idolized are flawed humans who have hurt people is important.

If you would like to concentrate solely on the victims, then I think that's fine and go for it. Don't police the thoughts of others.

 

[Deleted member 11093]

Pretty fucking low quoting their posts word for word, you removed the usernames but I could at least identify two users since their comments are on like the first page of that thread.
Your premise is still dumb but the thread could've gone along way had you not posted quotes.

 

[Sub Boss]

Because for many people they feel an admiration for this particular artist that its a bit difficult to shake off thus they express feelings on their first comments, normal human reaction they care about the victim to accept the circumstances but they have no personal relationship so there is a period of adjustment , i think we can pass it off, now, if that same person made comments defending the artist after the womans accusation without proof either way, then we could deduce he puts his personal feelings above others.then he/she deserves to be called out.

If you are annoyed by the comments thats your right but its understandable why it happens.

 

[Socivol]

Our relationship to the story is through the celebrity in question. In the case of the Nas story we do know who Kelis is, but to a greatly lesser degree. In most cases we've never heard of the accuser.

I don't see how it diminishes support for the accuser. The disappointment in the accused celebrity implies we believe the allegation.

Click to shrink...

It's a great first post that I think sums things up well. What I don't like is people that express sympathy for the celeb like yesterday my cousin was like "Poor Bill Cosby". I had to get on her and explain Bill Cosby outright admitted that he drugged women he is just getting what he deserves and just because he's old now doesn't mean we should be sympathetic towards him. He's a trash ass rapist.

 

[-PXG-]

Idolizing people you actually don't know is fucking idiotic to say at the least.

Click to shrink...

Yup.

You can appreciate someone for their work and accomplishments. But beyond that, who cares?

Never understood idolization. Unless you save my life or literally wiped my ass, you're not any better or worse than anyone else. Don't get too attached to anyone or anything.

These so called "elite" people are animals, just like us. They have flaws and are imperfect.

 

[Casual]

Yeah, you seem to be really missing the point. Agreed with what most people in here have already said.

 

[Sub Boss]

Idolizing people you actually don't know is fucking idiotic to say at the least.

Click to shrink...

Like, have you ever admired someone for his/her talent/work/voice/acting? What about when you were a kid or teen?
A CEO, a film director, a game developer, a novel writter, a pop singer, an actor, a religious leader, hell even a politician.

Its normal people stuff to have an idol/role model outside family growing up

 

[Prophaniti]

Moral grandstanding in platform shoes. The new liberal fashion.

Click to shrink...

But how else will people know how morally superior I am? That's what's important here.

 

[Morrigan]

A lot of defensiveness in this thread, but you make a legitimate point. It is eye-rolling to see people seemingly (and yes, "seemingly" is important here) care more about their heroes being disappointing, than caring about the victims.

To those who feel defensive, perhaps you DO care about the victims more, and that's great. But maybe you ought to just stop for a moment and think about the kind of message or priorities you're sending to readers, particularly women and/or victims of sexual assault, who read this kind of comment day after day after day. It's not a lot to ask to just to a bit of self-reflection and express a bit more of that empathy you claim to have.

And we're done here.

Click to shrink...

No, we're not.

Please do not attempt to shut down the conversation with posts like these.

While I don't know if people deserve to be chastised for it...

Specifically hoping that your favorite celeb "isn't next" makes it about you instead of the victim. "Boy I sure hope I'm not disappointed and have to face the moral quandry of still giving them money!"

Click to shrink...

Good point.

 

[Lappe]

Like, have you ever admired someone for his/her talent/work/voice/acting? What about when you were a kid or teen?
A CEO, a film director, a game developer, a novel writter, a pop singer, an actor, a religious leader, hell even a politician.

Its normal people stuff to have an idol/role model outside family growing up

Click to shrink...

Of course I have, but It's still pretty idiotic IMO. Lifting someone to a pedestal, and then being disappointed when realizing they are humans, with faults.
I'm not defending this kind of behaviour from any public or private person, I'm just trying to say that people are people and will always be faulted beings and there needs to be a clear distinction between a professional profile, and a personal profile. It can be hard though because sometimes these two intertwine.

This is just my opinion so, no need to take it personally.

 

[Hobbesian Thudercat]

But how else will people know how morally superior I am? That's what's important here.

Click to shrink...

They'll point to the shoes!

 

[RoboPlato]

When you look up to someone and their personal work has had a profound effect on you, you will be personally hurt when they let you down. It doesn't mean you don't also feel for the victims. You can feel for multiple people at once.

 

[Deleted member 19844]

Our relationship to the story is through the celebrity in question. In the case of the Nas story we do know who Kelis is, but to a greatly lesser degree. In most cases we've never heard of the accuser.

I don't see how it diminishes support for the accuser. The disappointment in the accused celebrity implies we believe the allegation.

Click to shrink...

If you want to enact positive change, you're going to need to start by not judging the people involved in the conversation by how closely their initial reaction aligns with your own.

This is broadly applicable.

Click to shrink...

I wholeheartedly agree and am thankful these two posters communicated these thoughts so concisely and effectively.

 

[Deleted member 25108]

You don't need to have empathy towards people to realise that they deserve justice or that their abusers have disappointed you.

To be honest, alot of the "empathy" I see around here is just people just posting emotional charged responses from a place of moral superiority. They don't actual care about the victim except as a vehicle for their own righteous indignation.

 

[Morrigan]

But how else will people know how morally superior I am? That's what's important here.

Click to shrink...

They'll point to the shoes!

Click to shrink...

Stop trolling.

 

[legacyzero]

The worst part about the entire conversation of #MeToo, is the blatant concern trolling in the discourse for it. This thread shows that. You're conflating the fact that people are like "Fuck this dude! I'm not supporting him anymore!" with not having empathy for the victim? It's inferred dude. The act of showing support for the victim by not further supporting the offender, and not normalizing their behavior, isn't "lack of empathy".

Also, people show concern, support, and empathy in their own way. So let's stop this shit of "can we do better?!" We're doing just fine thanks. If anything we've come quite a ways from "I WANNA SEE RECEIPTS!" type posts.

You don't need to have empathy towards people to realise that they deserve justice or that their abusers have disappointed you.

To be honest, alot of the "empathy" I see around here is just people just posting emotional charged responses from a place of moral superiority. They don't actual care about the victim except as a vehicle for their own righteous indignation.

Click to shrink...

God DAMN, you said it better than me LOL