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Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,443
Destiny 2 already confirmed to be running at 4K on series X and 1080p on series S , both at 60 FPS .

Yeah and? Destiny engine isn't event built for next gen architecture. Not a great example.

Anyway, we'll see some next gen game come in under native 1440p on the S just as we'll see ps5 and XSX games under 4k...

No I'm saying we're not paying 60% here... For some reason we're paying 66%. $500 rather than $450 which would have been more appealing.

I mean yeah, playing less for things is always nice. That doesn't mean the S is over priced for what it offers.
 

StereoVSN

Member
Nov 1, 2017
13,620
Eastern US
I am somewhat skeptical that Series S will sell all that well. We are already seeing 900p games at 60fps, are we not in preview? The gen hasn't even started. Even BC games arent running particularly great and in Xbone S mode.

Once full on next gen games hit and S is going to be mainly stuck on say 1080p/30 fps (or lower) vs 4k/60 (or close enough to 4k) without the image enhanced bells and whistles like RTX... I am not so sure it will be as popular.

YouTubers will go crazy pointing out the differences and such. The only potential differentiator is XCloud...but you can run that on Android well enough and it will be on TVs and TV boxes soon enough.

I guess we shall see and I may be proven wrong, but its going to be interesting.
 

CrypticSlayer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
647
I'm wondering if the Series S can at some point hit $99 based on its cost reduction cycle. I think $149 will happen because the all digital One S hit that price. Also I think the Series X slim might be branded under the S line.
 

Razgriz417

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,117
interesting that they're expecting this, has anyone said if install sizes will be different on the S vs X? If not, I can def see them making up the difference on the memory cards
 

nanskee

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 31, 2017
5,071
Is it safe to assume that Microsoft could release a new console every 3 years lines? Maybe a refresh of current models or one new model that series S could be $199, Series X at $399, and a series Y or whatever at $599

I'm also at the presumption that the series s will be the first one to drop in price, could be $249 by next year black Friday
 

Deleted member 81119

User-requested account closure
Banned
Sep 19, 2020
8,308
Series S will start selling as soon as soon as MS start releasing must own titles. By that time though, I imagine a replacement Series S may be on the way.
 

Doctor_Thomas

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,680
I think too many people get caught up in the "enthusiast" stuff.

Series S is cheap. It plays the newest games.

Done.
 

Jaded Alyx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,457
It makes sense for that to be the case but I think they really do need to nail the marketing of the S. There's already a strong sentiment among the enthusiast crowd that the S is not worthwhile at all and some even hope it disappears completely. This kind of 'negative buzz' can trickle down to the more casual yet much larger mainstream crowd that the S would be ideal for.
 

Aether

Member
Jan 6, 2018
4,421
Well, hes right. People here ar so focused on the spec side of things...while most people game on smartphones and low level laptops, and most people will only buy a 4k tv when their 1080p on dies.

Most of the gaming world has a lower income than the average era user i would asume.

I liked his sincerity in this part:
Yeah. I have 0 interest in the XBox eco system, but i really liked Spencer, he is down to earch, honest, straight forward and you really know that he is not just a suit that tries to seem like he games, but is fully imersed in the field.

Part of why he can be this blatantly honest is that their strategy is a different one than with nintendo and sony (both really need to sell consoles, microsoft in the long therm wants to push their services).
 

Jaded Alyx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,457
Also it's no mystery that developers don't like it also because it forces them to do extra work so they might end up supporting it lazily by downgrading everything they can, sabotaging the product indirectly.
Curious about this. Has any developer come out and said similar about the Switch, since you basically need to support two profiles/configs there too?
 

Deleted member 5028

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,724
most companies have slews of failed products - MS is no different in this regard, in fact, their graveyard is quite vast.

Phil took Mixer outback this very year.
On that note the new OS doesn't have a baked in streaming option. Share, yes. Stream no. You'd think they could bake in support for Twitch, Youtube and others
 

Mortal Mario

Member
Apr 15, 2019
763
UK
I am somewhat skeptical that Series S will sell all that well. We are already seeing 900p games at 60fps, are we not in preview? The gen hasn't even started. Even BC games arent running particularly great and in Xbone S mode.

Once full on next gen games hit and S is going to be mainly stuck on say 1080p/30 fps (or lower) vs 4k/60 (or close enough to 4k) without the image enhanced bells and whistles like RTX... I am not so sure it will be as popular.

YouTubers will go crazy pointing out the differences and such. The only potential differentiator is XCloud...but you can run that on Android well enough and it will be on TVs and TV boxes soon enough.

I guess we shall see and I may be proven wrong, but its going to be interesting.

What's this about BC games running poorly on Series S? We haven't seen much in the way of BC running on it as far as I know but we did see an example of Fallout 4 running with a 60fps enhancement, no?

Also why would future games be 1080p/30 on S if they are 4k/60 on X? Is the performance delta going to widen? Can you explain why the gap between them would widen in such a way?
 

HeRinger

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,309
I am somewhat skeptical that Series S will sell all that well. We are already seeing 900p games at 60fps, are we not in preview? The gen hasn't even started. Even BC games arent running particularly great and in Xbone S mode.

Once full on next gen games hit and S is going to be mainly stuck on say 1080p/30 fps (or lower) vs 4k/60 (or close enough to 4k) without the image enhanced bells and whistles like RTX... I am not so sure it will be as popular.

YouTubers will go crazy pointing out the differences and such. The only potential differentiator is XCloud...but you can run that on Android well enough and it will be on TVs and TV boxes soon enough.

I guess we shall see and I may be proven wrong, but its going to be interesting.
This really doesn't indicate anything. At launch, Battlefield 4 was 900p on PS4 and 720p on Xbox One. That didn't mean the average resolution for these consoles was lower than that (quite the contrary, in fact).
 

StereoVSN

Member
Nov 1, 2017
13,620
Eastern US
Why wouldn't it have those bells and whistles like raytracing?
Because it has a much weaker GPU and Raytracing is expensive as far as resource consumption is concerned.

On BC, it was stated that Series S will run BC in One S mode. I mean we shall see, but again, don't expect miracles. Its a nice enough console, but its GPU will absolutely be a limiting factor, especially couple years down the road.
 

HeRinger

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,309
Because it has a much weaker GPU and Raytracing is expensive as far as resource consumption is concerned.

On BC, it was stated that Series S will run BC in One S mode. I mean we shall see, but again, don't expect miracles. Its a nice enough console, but its GPU will absolutely be a limiting factor, especially couple years down the road.
How much weaker? Two times? Three times? Four times?

Just because it's much weaker it doesn't mean it can't do the same effects at a much lower resolution.

Even the game you mentioned in your initial post (Yakuza) falls perfectly in line with the expectation Microsoft is setting, as the game is 4k/30 on XSX and 1440p/30 on Series S. To run the game at 60fps, the XSX resolution had to drop to 1440p, so it's no surprise it would be 900p on XSS. If it was 4k on XSX and 900p on the XSS, then we would have reason to be concerned.

As for BC, this was already explained a million times, but I get the feeling you are just arguing in bad faith.
 

pg2g

Member
Dec 18, 2018
4,863
I am somewhat skeptical that Series S will sell all that well. We are already seeing 900p games at 60fps, are we not in preview? The gen hasn't even started. Even BC games arent running particularly great and in Xbone S mode.

That game runs at 1440p/60 on the XSX though. I don't expect games to be sub-1440p native on XSX, so that means 900p on XSS is going to be the low end. Not bad IMO.

To put into context, PS5 ran the UE5 demo at 1440/30. That means the XSS would likely be able to run the same demo at 900p+. That doesnt sound all that bad to me for a $300 box
 

meenseen84

Member
Feb 15, 2018
1,953
Minneapolis
It's going to sell a ton when it reaches a price low enough to be an impulse buy. I think even as a secondary console it's going to be a seller. The fact that it's so small is going to win so many over. I think what I'm most interested in is will there be a new S and X in 3-4 years. Is that the plan. It will be an interesting next few years.
 

VoltySquirrel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
490
This is something Samsung themselves have noted: at the launch of a lineup, the best selling phone is the one that all the enthusiasts buy. The new Note phones, the S20 Ultra. But 6 months later it shifts and it's usually the cheaper variants that are the overall sales leader.
 

Black_Stride

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
7,390
This is something Samsung themselves have noted: at the launch of a lineup, the best selling phone is the one that all the enthusiasts buy. The new Note phones, the S20 Ultra. But 6 months later it shifts and it's usually the cheaper variants that are the overall sales leader.

Im sure its similar in most markets/companies.

The Flagship/Halo product gets everyone to look at and talk about you, but your true bread winner is something further down the line.
So MS having the Series X with the biggest baddest tagline, while having the Series S as the true money maker makes sense.
They need people to join the ecosystem, for people to join they need to actually even bother looking at Xbox as an option....constantly telling people Xbox is the strongest then showing them a cheaper option to join should work down the line.

How well that will work, who knows....its a new paradigm in the console space, that works in other markets but isnt guaranteed to work here.
Lets see what happens.

Am I the only one worried the Series S being the most popular machine say in 2024 could make devs focus on getting the Series S version perfect, then working on basically uports for every other platform?
 

StereoVSN

Member
Nov 1, 2017
13,620
Eastern US
How much weaker? Two times? Three times? Four times?

Just because it's much weaker it doesn't mean it can't do the same effects at a much lower resolution.

Even the game you mentioned in your initial post (Yakuza) falls perfectly in line with the expectation Microsoft is setting, as the game is 4k/30 on XSX and 1440p/30 on Series S. To run the game at 60fps, the XSX resolution had to drop to 1440p, so it's no surprise it would be 900p on XSS. If it was 4k on XSX and 900p on the XSS, then we would have reason to be concerned.

As for BC, this was already explained a million times, but I get the feeling you are just arguing in bad faith.
I guess we shall see what happens once full on next gen games hit.

On BC, I know the reasons have been mentioned. Its still disappointing.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,443
I am somewhat skeptical that Series S will sell all that well. We are already seeing 900p games at 60fps, are we not in preview? The gen hasn't even started. Even BC games arent running particularly great and in Xbone S mode.

Once full on next gen games hit and S is going to be mainly stuck on say 1080p/30 fps (or lower) vs 4k/60 (or close enough to 4k) without the image enhanced bells and whistles like RTX... I am not so sure it will be as popular.

YouTubers will go crazy pointing out the differences and such. The only potential differentiator is XCloud...but you can run that on Android well enough and it will be on TVs and TV boxes soon enough.

I guess we shall see and I may be proven wrong, but its going to be interesting.

How do you come to these conclusions? If we are dealing with a multiplatform engine, and a 10TF gpu is good for 4K60 with bells and whistles why would a 4TF console be insufficient for 1440p60? It's literally 40٪ of the graphical power to do 40% of the graphical work.

If S is seeing the framerate cut in half AND a resolution drop greater than 60% then why would it also be losing there bells and whistles? it would have plenty of resources remaining for EXTRA bell's and whistles
 
Last edited:

meenseen84

Member
Feb 15, 2018
1,953
Minneapolis
Im sure its similar in most markets/companies.

The Flagship/Halo product gets everyone to look at and talk about you, but your true bread winner is something further down the line.
So MS having the Series X with the biggest baddest tagline, while having the Series S as the true money maker makes sense.
They need people to join the ecosystem, for people to join they need to actually even bother looking at Xbox as an option....constantly telling people Xbox is the strongest then showing them a cheaper option to join should work down the line.

How well that will work, who knows....its a new paradigm in the console space, that works in other markets but isnt guaranteed to work here.
Lets see what happens.

Am I the only one worried the Series S being the most popular machine say in 2024 could make devs focus on getting the Series S version perfect, then working on basically uports for every other platform?

Don't they usually make a game as beautiful as possible and downscale. PC does this all the time. The Series S will still be better than the minimum PC spec for a while. In 2024 they could have a new S at $299 again and stop selling it, just like we're seeing now. Xcloud could make older hardware relevant forever too.
 

StereoVSN

Member
Nov 1, 2017
13,620
Eastern US
How do you come to these conclusions? If we are dealing with a multiplatform engine, and a 10TF gpu is good for 4K60 with bells and whistles why would a 4TF console be insufficient for 1440p60? It's literally 40٪ of the graphical power to do 40% of the graphical work.

If S is seeing the framerate cut in half AND a resolution drop greater than 60% then why would it also be losing there bells and whistles? it would have plenty of resources remaining for EXTRA bell's and whistles
We shall see I guess. Even with lower res I have doubts that S has enough horsepower for proper RTX effects, but I would be happy to be proven wrong.
 

Bradbatross

Member
Mar 17, 2018
14,246
It's still hilarious to me that people think Phil is wrong on this. Some people REALLY have a hard time thinking outside of the ERA bubble.
 

Sho_Nuff82

Member
Nov 14, 2017
18,477
We shall see I guess. Even with lower res I have doubts that S has enough horsepower for proper RTX effects, but I would be happy to be proven wrong.
An RTX 2060 is only 6.4 tflops and gets >60fps in Control with raytracing on with dlss 2.0 reconstruction (native target is 1080p here): https://youtu.be/jSvsqQftPWw

Devs will use reconstruction techniques to keep framerates up in all games using RT, there will be less and less native 4k (or native 1080p for Series S) games as the generation progresses.
 

Bede-x

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,528
Even BC games arent running particularly great and in Xbone S mode.

On BC, it was stated that Series S will run BC in One S mode.

Most BC games will actually run in One S mode on every Xbox, unless they've been enhanced.

Examples:

-Xbox Original games are all enhanced, so titles that were 480p on the original Xbox will be 1440p on Series S (basically a 3x boost on both axes). This is an improvement on One S.

-Xbox 360 enhanced titles run with their normal resolution on One S, but get a 2x boost on both axes on Series S, so a 720p title becomes 1440p. Again an improvement on One S.

-Fallout 4 will be one of the first titles to be enhanced on the new Xbox platforms and on Series S it will run at 60fps, in comparison to the 30fps on One S/X. Another improvement.


news.xbox.com

Xbox Series X and Xbox Series S Will Be the Best Place to Play 1000s of Games From Across Four Generations of Xbox - Xbox Wire

As gamers, we know how important it is to preserve and respect your gaming legacy. We believe your favorite games and franchises, your progression and achievements, your Xbox One gaming accessories and the friendships and communities you create through gaming should all move with you across...

Basically think of BC titles belonging to three categories:

1) Enhanced BC titles (original Xbox games, 360 enhanced titles and the upcoming "enhanced" games like Fallout 4): These are also improved on Series S. They might not hit the high resolution of Series X and One X, but they're still improved over the regular One S and in some cases might do some things better than One X (framerate in Fallout 4) and other things worse (typically resolution).

2) Normal BC titles: These run in what you call "One S" mode on every Xbox platform, but they might still exhibit improvements due to running on more powerful hardware (more stable framerate/better loading times etc.).

3) Xbox One games improved for One X. Titles released in the latter years to take advantage of One X. Unless changed like with Fallout 4, they will default to the regular One S mode on Series S, though the games being newer will likely also give them a higher chance of being patched/updated to avoid this. We'll see how that ends up.
 

SRTtoZ

Member
Dec 8, 2017
4,624
The only major issue I see with the S is next year when the PS5 and Xbox Series line is back in stock, the Series S looks like a bad deal compared to the PS5 digital with only a $100 difference between the two. Who knows maybe I'm wrong, maybe he's wrong. We just have to wait and see.
 

StereoVSN

Member
Nov 1, 2017
13,620
Eastern US
Most BC games will actually run in One S mode on every Xbox, unless they've been enhanced.

Examples:

-Xbox Original games are all enhanced, so titles that were 480p on the original Xbox will be 1440p on Series S (basically a 3x boost on both axes). This is an improvement on One S.

-Xbox 360 enhanced titles run with their normal resolution on One S, but get a 2x boost on both axes on Series S, so a 720p title becomes 1440p. Again an improvement on One S.

-Fallout 4 will be one of the first titles to be enhanced on the new Xbox platforms and on Series S it will run at 60fps, in comparison to the 30fps on One S/X. Another improvement.


news.xbox.com

Xbox Series X and Xbox Series S Will Be the Best Place to Play 1000s of Games From Across Four Generations of Xbox - Xbox Wire

As gamers, we know how important it is to preserve and respect your gaming legacy. We believe your favorite games and franchises, your progression and achievements, your Xbox One gaming accessories and the friendships and communities you create through gaming should all move with you across...

Basically think of BC titles belonging to three categories:

1) Enhanced BC titles (original Xbox games, 360 enhanced titles and the upcoming "enhanced" games like Fallout 4): These are also improved on Series S. They might not hit the high resolution of Series X and One X, but they're still improved over the regular One S and in some cases might do some things better than One X (framerate in Fallout 4) and other things worse (typically resolution).

2) Normal BC titles: These run in what you call "One S" mode on every Xbox platform, but they might still exhibit improvements due to running on more powerful hardware (more stable framerate/better loading times etc.).

3) Xbox One games improved for One X. Titles released in the latter years to take advantage of One X. Unless changed like with Fallout 4, they will default to the regular One S mode on Series S, though the games being newer will likely also give them a higher chance of being patched/updated to avoid this. We'll see how that ends up.
I didn't realize that for case 1 there are enhanced resolution modes. Thats actually not too bad. Its going to be interesting to see variety of tests by various tech channels and publications once the hardware releases.
 

Euphoria

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,576
Earth
I have the X on preorder so not sure how it goes in the end, but overall to me the great part is that either option allows you to own a console and a sub and nothing else.

I like that.


The faster loading comment in the OP for me though is sort of a "duh..." comment considering it is predicated on the fact it is loading lower resolution assets.

I'm sure if you load at those same lower res assets on the series X it won't be faster anymore. Unless of course I'm missing something there.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,443
An RTX 2060 is only 6.4 tflops and gets >60fps in Control with raytracing on with dlss 2.0 reconstruction (native target is 1080p here): https://youtu.be/jSvsqQftPWw

Devs will use reconstruction techniques to keep framerates up in all games using RT, there will be less and less native 4k (or native 1080p for Series S) games as the generation progresses.

Thanks I was actually going to use this example.

We shall see I guess. Even with lower res I have doubts that S has enough horsepower for proper RTX effects, but I would be happy to be proven wrong.

Yeah we'll just have to see, but comparing like for like, I just don't see how people arrive at this conclusion.
 

ArkhamFantasy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,568
I'm wondering if the Series S can at some point hit $99 based on its cost reduction cycle. I think $149 will happen because the all digital One S hit that price. Also I think the Series X slim might be branded under the S line.

Both Sony and MS seem reluctant to go below $200, even if they can afford to do so.

I believe Piscatella referred to this as price anchoring.
 

turbobrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,124
Phoenix, AZ
I can see it. Its a cheap way to get into next gen. As long as it can run next gen games at good framerates, I see no issue with the lower resolution.

It would be the one I'd get, but I'm stuck in the past and won't buy a console with no disc drive.
 

P A Z

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,917
Barnsley, UK
I consider myself "hardcore", an "enthusiast" and predominantly a PlayStation guy and I've pre-ordered the Series S.

Primarily because resolution is at the bottom of the list when it comes to what I prioritise between that, load times and framerates nowadays and with Xbox having a significantly cheaper box this time round, along with a significantly cheaper way to access games, it's a no brainer to me, especially in current times. The lower storage space also doesn't matter because I typically play either one big game at a time or a bunch of smaller games.

Without the Series S existing I would almost certainly be picking up a PS5 first, so well played Phil, earned one sale you would not have gotten previously.