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Haze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,788
Detroit, MI
A great feature from Cecilia detailing first hand accounts of an intersection of toxic gaming and business culture.

https://kotaku.com/inside-the-culture-of-sexism-at-riot-games-1828165483

Hiring a woman into a leadership position proved impossible for Lacy, she said, and she left the company in part because of the sexism she'd personally experienced. She said her direct manager would ask her if it was hard working at Riot being so cute. Sometimes, she said, he'd imply that her position was a direct result of her appearance. Every few months, she said, a male boss of hers would comment in public meetings about how her kids and husband must really miss her while she was at work.

One day, Lacy conducted an experiment: After an idea she really believed in fell flat during a meeting, she asked a male colleague to present the same idea to the same group of people days later. He was skeptical, but she insisted that he give it a shot. "Lo and behold, the week after that, [he] went in, presented exactly as I did and the whole room was like, 'Oh my gosh, this is amazing.' [His] face turned beet red and he had tears in his eyes," said Lacy. "They just didn't respect women."

In her interview at Riot in 2015, one woman was asked to recall her favorite trinket from a 2004 World of Warcraft raid. She had already detailed what games she played and how often she played them. Throughout the hour-long interview, she said, her interviewer had been fact-checking her, looking for holes in the story of her gamer upbringing. "I was trying to prove to this executive that I wasn't lying about playing games," she said. To demonstrate she was a real, Riot-style gamer, she recalls wondering in desperation, "Should I just ask this guy to log onto my World of Warcraft profile?" Eventually, she was hired, despite hearing from a confidant later that her interviewer didn't think she had the "grit" to work there. Another confidant told her that the tone of her interview would have never happened were she a man.

Working at Riot isn't just about doing a job—it's about enthusiastically participating in the company's culture. What that means, among other things, is that successful hires across the company ought to be video game fans and specifically, according to three sources with knowledge of Riot's recruitment practices, hardcore video game fans. "We want passionate gamers who are talented professionals," read the first line on Riot's hiring page until late June. "Loving what you do is mandatory, and you won't fully appreciate a gamer's perspective unless you are one. We're not looking for the feedback averse. You need conviction, passion, and horsepower to excel at Riot." Those lines are no longer there. Now, the page includes the line, "Whatever you play, if you make time to play, you're a gamer," apparently softening Riot's cultural standards for gaming.

During hiring, Riot vets whether potential employees will be "culture fits." According to three sources familiar with Riot's recruiting practices, Riot focuses on finding what the company calls "core gamers" who can empathize with League players, and especially with the grind for competitive skill points. On paper, that makes sense. People who work at Riot need to understand the product they're putting out and the community they're meant to serve. But in practice, four sources say, the company preferencing core gamers when it hires not just game developers, but all of its full-time employees—from office managers to finance specialists—means preferencing a certain kind of person.

Those sources said that talented women have fallen through Riot's hiring processes because they weren't considered "core gamers," which one source described as "an excuse." Two sources familiar with Riot's hiring practices say the company checks interviewees' League of Legends stats prior to bringing them on campus for interviews. In an e-mail, a Riot representative told Kotaku, "During the interview process, we often expect Rioters to try out League of Legends, and for some League development roles require familiarity with the game, but we're not evaluating for skill." To correct hiring mistakes, Riot has a program called "queue dodge"; new hires who are deemed cultural "mismatches" can receive 10% of their annual salary, up to $25,000, if they leave.

It's a very in-depth, highly sourced, and detailed article but worth the read. It baffles me that many people are going to read this and simply shrug it off as a hit piece or for pushing some kind of agenda.


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Last edited:

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
Just finished reading.

It's exhaustive. And it sucks for the talented women involved. And it's sadly not unique to Riot, by far.
 

Deleted member 249

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,828
I legit didn't get some basic gaming jobs when I tried years ago because I didn't play wow. Fucking stupid shit those gatekeepimg
That's shitty. And you know, this story gets it right, the question of whether or not you play WoW probably wouldn't have come up at all if you were a man.
The tech industry is the final, ultimate realization of toxic masculinity, except it's worse, because it's insidious.
 

RailWays

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
15,688
One day, Lacy conducted an experiment: After an idea she really believed in fell flat during a meeting, she asked a male colleague to present the same idea to the same group of people days later. He was skeptical, but she insisted that he give it a shot. "Lo and behold, the week after that, [he] went in, presented exactly as I did and the whole room was like, 'Oh my gosh, this is amazing.' [His] face turned beet red and he had tears in his eyes," said Lacy. "They just didn't respect women."
This kind of shit drives me mad when I see it.
 

metsallica

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,744
I haven't gone through this whole piece yet (and have been disgusted by most of it so far), but what job interview isn't primarily gauging if you'll be a culture fit at the company? What else can you judge during a job interview? Every candidate comes in there and says the same stuff, they're detail-oriented, they're this, they're that, and credentials got them in the door to begin with.
 

Stiler

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
6,659
Not finished reading yet but damn, that bit about having a male pitch the same idea, to the same people, and having them react the opposite way is heartbreaking. I mean seriously how can people be so dense just because it's a female that pitches the idea, like I don't understand the thought process "the person behind the idea was a woman, so lets say it sucks." Like what's the point of that kind of thinkingi?

What has Riot made that's notable?

League of Legends, one of the biggest and most played games that makes a ton of $$$, way more then WoW. It was the top money making game a couple years back (not sure if it still is because of Fortnite).
 

Ehoavash

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,241
Hm
Not at all. It's definitely an industry wide problem.

Yeah. Also interesting to me is this lol
https://www.techtimes.com/articles/...u-miyamoto-hires-non-gamers-to-make-games.htm

"I always look for designers who aren't super-passionate game fans," Miyamoto told The New York Times in a new interview in which he discussed stepping back from the limelight and letting other talents take his place for the new generation. The reason? People who are very passionate about video games are less likely to try new ideas, he said.

"I make it a point to ensure they're not a gamer, but that they have a lot of different interests and skill sets," said Miyamoto. In fact, some of Nintendo's current stars had no experience playing video games when they were hired, which is a pretty incredible thing if true.
"
Such opposite culture
 
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Haze

Haze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,788
Detroit, MI
I haven't gone through this whole piece yet, but what job interview isn't primarily gauging if you'll be a culture fit at the company? What else can you judge during a job interview? Every candidate comes in there and says the same stuff, they're detail-oriented, they're this, they're that, and credentials got them in the door to begin with.

The article details how interviewers would arbitrarily raise the stakes and gatekeep women while also doubting their claims and credentials in ways they didn't to men.

This is a real drag to hear. I've been courting Riot for a position for some time. Maybe not so much anymore.

You could always be someone who moves up and strives to change the culture!
 

The_R3medy

Member
Jan 22, 2018
2,849
Wisconsin
Goodness that was a disheartening read, and one that made me even worry about the times I may have questioned if someone was a gamer or nerd.

Excellent work by Cecillia.
 

Call me YHWH

Member
Oct 26, 2017
724
This is a real drag to hear. I've been courting Riot for a position for some time. Maybe not so much anymore.
 

Holundrian

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,207
not even surprised. Lol has managed to ignore all the conversations on female designs even to this day.
Kudos for the important journalistic work done here.
 

Instro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,056
I think it's fair to ask for some level of core game experience, and experience with the products of a hiring company in general, but obviously based on the story there is a larger discriminatory issue at the company. Nothing truly horrendous is mentioned, but it does sound like stock standard culture of many IT focused companies/arenas is prevalent at Riot.
 

metsallica

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,744
The article details how interviewers would arbitrarily raise the stakes and gatekeep women while also doubting their claims and credentials in ways they didn't to men.
Yeah, I'm gathering that now. When I skimmed I read it as if they were condemning that practice (which would be crazy), but it's really just the specific, gender-biased application of it here.
 
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OP
Haze

Haze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,788
Detroit, MI
I think it's fair to ask for some level of core game experience, and experience with the products of a hiring company in general, but obviously based on the story there is a larger discriminatory issue at the company. Nothing truly horrendous is mentioned, but it does sound like stock standard culture of many IT focused companies/arenas is prevalent at Riot.

Yeah I don't think this article exists so much to single out Riot as it does use a specific and detailed example to underline a major industry issue.
 

Cyanity

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,345
And people wonder why a lot of members on this forum refuse to identify as gamers.
 

Interficium

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,569
Unsurprising to be sure. The "bro" culture @ Riot is as open secret in the industry as Naughty Dog's death marches.
 
Nov 1, 2017
2,904
After all their policing of their community and millions of dollars spent it seems as if it was Riot that was also complicit in toxicity all along. No surprise given what I've heard.
 

Laiza

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,171
not even surprised. Lol has managed to ignore all the conversations on female designs even to this day.
Kudos for the important journalistic work done here.
Yeah, not surprising at all.

They've made some inroads towards diversity (having at least one 'alien' female character, Illaoi, Taliyah) but by and large it's pretty obvious just by looking at their output that they're still largely heterosexual male-dominated. Even a number of those female artists on their payroll are the types who draw lots of cheesecake (i.e. they're a "cultural fit") - I can imagine other artists who have different ideas but weren't a "cultural fit" didn't get in because of it.

It's a tough nugget to crack. Lots of inertia. Not sure what can be done to really fix it, honestly. You really need a shake-up across the whole organization.
 
Nov 1, 2017
2,904
It's a tough nugget to crack. Lots of inertia. Not sure what can be done to really fix it, honestly. You really need a shake-up across the whole organization.
I guarantee the tenor of the culture comes from the top and trickles down accordingly, as with most tech/game companies. And you're right, it can't be fixed because that leadership that high is not simply going to leave the company.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,957
Germany
This kind of shit drives me mad when I see it.
There should have been more info like, if she was passionate about her presentation and gave it her all and if he did the same. Or was she just presenting some facts that she thought speak for themselves and he tried to really sell the idea and appear determined about it.

Without more info (this is a writer mistake, imo), I find the other occurrences of sexism described in the piece more disgusting, including the interviewer thing.
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,741
Great article. Really shitty to learn about this, for whatever reason I assumed Riot was better than this. I'm not even a fan of their games or anything, I just sort of had this positive image of them as a company.
 

Deleted member 20892

User requested account closure
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Oct 28, 2017
1,958
This is really your first time hearing about the awful Naughty Dog crunch culture?
Yes? That's why I asked? Is this really the first time you've seen someone ask a question?

Great article. Really shitty to learn about this, for whatever reason I assumed Riot was better than this. I'm not even a fan of their games or anything, I just sort of had this positive image of them as a company.
Same ;-;
 
Nov 1, 2017
2,904
Great article. Really shitty to learn about this, for whatever reason I assumed Riot was better than this. I'm not even a fan of their games or anything, I just sort of had this positive image of them as a company.
You probably assumed that because they policed their community heavily and spent money on anti-toxicity initiatives that they had a good culture running that show. I hope you don't make that mistake again.
 

Envelope

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
896
You probably assumed that because they policed their community heavily and spent money on anti-toxicity initiatives that they had a good culture running that show. I hope you don't make that mistake again.
I mean... Those are still good things that all gaming companies should be doing, not sure why you keep bringing those aspects up?
 
Nov 1, 2017
2,904
I mean... Those are still good things that all gaming companies should be doing, not sure why you keep bringing those aspects up?
They should but I feel like if you ignore the garbage on your front lawn then you really have no grounds to tell anyone else to clean up their garbage or act like your shit doesn't stink, as Riot has sometimes done in the past.
 

Xater

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,910
Germany
I feel like I have heard before of the Riot working environment being questionable. This is a great article though.
 

RailWays

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
15,688
There should have been more info like, if she was passionate about her presentation and gave it her all and if he did the same. Or was she just presenting some facts that she thought speak for themselves and he tried to really sell the idea and appear determined about it.

Without more info (this is a writer mistake, imo), I find the other occurrences of sexism described in the piece more disgusting, including the interviewer thing.
Oh, for sure it's not the worst thing described in the article. It just hit home for me a bit closer, because I've witnessed that kind of thing happen.
 

Bigg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,641
"Here at Riot Games, we hire gamers," [a producer] said in his talk to an audience of Riot employees, audio of which was obtained by Kotaku. "If you're not a core gamer, you need to over-index in another area." Whether it's finance, development facilities, player support, he said, "I don't give a shit. You're better if you're a gamer."

For six minutes, the producer recounted a story of his experience preparing to raid the original World of Warcraft's Naxxramas dungeon, introduced in 2006. It was 300 hours of raiding into his game, and he detailed the effort, the passion, and the grit it took for him to attain the opportunity. And then, before the raid, his internet died, and he let down his team. The experience gave him an "acid turn" in his stomach, he said, and has become a story he's kept in his pocket for a decade. "Think of your story," he demands. "If you don't have one, get one. I'm serious."

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