Kotaku: An easy mode has never ruined a game

cabelhigh · Apr 3, 2019

DerpHause said:
With a focused product, why would you not focus there? It's no more ableist that Nike making lines of high performance athletic shoes.

I don't really think you can compare a video game to a shoe, sorry. Shoes are tools, games are entertainment. Tools have specific uses that by design aren't made for everyone; art and entertainment is generally made available for the widest audience.

To make a bad comparison, it might be an ordeal to sit the Hostel movies, but at least they are subtitled if I don't speak English. And video players give me the ability to skip past any scenes that I'm too squeamish for.

Kazoku_ · Apr 3, 2019

Stinkles said:
It's a forum so people debate things on it from the sublime, like Why Highlander is the best movie musical of all time, to the ridiculous like Why NYC Tap Water makes Magic Pizza.

Bruh...

On topic: I wonder what percentage of releases in a year don't have difficulty options. Do we have numbers?

Edited because virtual keyboard is too small

scitek · Apr 3, 2019

Harlequin said:
Not every game has to appeal to everyone. In fact, if you try to make a game like that, you'll likely end up with sth mediocre and generic. I've personally never played a Souls game because I'm not interested in combat-heavy stuff but I don't think they have to have easy modes. It wouldn't ruin the game, perhaps, but it would likely change the experience quite a bit and if the devs find that kind of change undesirable, it's their right to not include an easy mode.

Simply adding a lower difficulty doesn't mean it will suddenly appeal to everyone. I like DMC 1, 4, and 5, but even on its "normal" difficulty (Special Edition), I found 3 to be frustrating by comparison. In cases like that, I'll use the easy mode to learn how to pull off combos and whatnot, which helps immensely for going back and tackling a higher difficulty later.

But if someone had no interest in playing something like Sekiro without an easy mode, chances are they still wouldn't want to with one.

Altera · Apr 3, 2019

Solaris said:
FROM doesn't want an easy mode, otherwise they would have put it in.
FROM wants you to be challenged, that's one of the major appeals of their games.

That's really all there is to it. Keep thinking what you want overrides what the developers want, though. That's okay, but 'elitism' isn't.

Nah. I stand by GAMERS who say difficulty options would ruin the game, aka the "git gud" people are in fact, elitists.

KLoWn · Apr 3, 2019

Xiao Hu said:
TIL that asking for more accessibility options in an entertainment product, that can't be refunded, is borderline entitlement. People care way too much about how others want to enjoy or interpret art.

At this point it's not asking for it, it's throwing a tantrum. We've had this discussion a million times.

Also, most people that buy FromSoftware games know what they're getting themselves into, whether they like it or not.

Deleted member 198 · Apr 3, 2019

Doctor Avatar said:
"This game isn't what I want it to be" =/= "This game is bad"

People need to learn that if a creator decides they don't want to make a game catered to them that is a-ok. Go play something else.

So we should tell people with disabilities, who would benefit the most from easy modes, to just play something else?

Gustaf · Apr 3, 2019

maybe it hasnt ruined a game, but sometimes playing on easy is not even worth it, there is really no sense of accomplishment when enemies just die when you look at them.

Error 52 · Apr 3, 2019

Exist 2 Inspire said:
If you think it "sucks ass" it's probaly just not for you i'm afraid. Because i think Sekiro not having a easy mode "sucks ass" and i'm being told it's just not for me too.

Anthem and Fallout 76 are incompetently made, buggy messes with terribly designed gameplay.

Sekiro is a game targeted at a narrow audience. Hell, I'm not a part of that audience because I think From games are too hard for me. So, I don't play 'em.

Sub Boss · Apr 3, 2019

Sekiro too hard for ER Kotaku

NattyBo · Apr 3, 2019

Doctor Avatar said:
Isn't this a complete non argument, and a very passive aggressive ad hominem one at that?

Nope straight up aggressive. And no ad hom there.

Anyone arguing that also clearly acknowledges there are loads of games and other media that exist right now that aren't for them. This isn't something they're arguing "just because it doesn't affect them".

Your opinion of why people are arguing that way isn't any more or less valid than I am.

Calling people hypothetical hypocrites with made up scenarios in your head isn't a very strong argument.

diminishing reflex time as you age is in no way a hypothetical argument.

Ultimately a lot of people are salty that FROM games are too hard for them. FROM isn't making games for you, and that is ok. You do realise that is ok right? That there is literally nothing wrong with FROM making the games they want to make the way they want to make them?

Lol I'm at the last Boss of Sekiro. This condensencion dripping from this paragraph is a perfect example of thinking that being good at a FROM games makes you special or something.

Again, if they wanted to put in racist content would that be okay? Because that's how they want to make them? It's not a canard, it's a completely valid point that no one cares to address

DerpHause · Apr 3, 2019

TaleSpun said:
By the same token, gaming really needs to have a "death of the author" moment in terms of cultural discourse. Because it absolutely applies.

The fact of the matter is that once I purchase the game, Miyazaki's vision might just not be relevant to me at all. Maybe I don't even know what a "Soulsborne" is. Maybe I don't care to find out. Maybe I just bought the cool samurai game on the shelf at GameStop the last time I was there.

Why does the creator of the game need to take these things into account? Why do they, with their already established product vision need to compromise for someone who isn't even invested in them and their products to know or care about the experience they have to offer compared to other games?

TaleSpun said:
Why is my experience less valuable than yours? These are not these holy experiences that must remain pure and untainted by *checks notes* options for difficulty and accessibility.

We're not the ones making the decision, asking about why another players experience is more important is pointless and fundamentally deceptive as it puts moral onus on them for something not in their control for liking a game.

RaySpencer · Apr 3, 2019

I love the difficulty in From Software games, I find it a good challenge and very rewarding.

That said, I would love if they had an easier mode. I wouldn't use it, but someone would, and I want them to be included, if they want too.

waffleboy · Apr 3, 2019

Xpike said:
at the same time no one should be forcing developers to sacrifice their vision
its clear by now from doesnt want to add an easy mode

So no one is allowed to criticize video games?

TaleSpun · Apr 3, 2019

Kyle Cross said:
I said this in another thread recently; Every game should have the most basic of accessibility options in the form of difficulty settings. Honestly, it's poor game design to do otherwise.

"Core gamers aren't the only ones who play action games so it's necessary to make sure players of different levels can enjoy your game," Inaba cautioned. "It's important to widen the entry point of your game, but you also have to make sure that those who play straight through the path enjoy the experience." Depth, he said, is equally important.

To be honest, it feels like maybe Souls fans could just take a step back and consider that maybe Miyazaki's take on this stuff is not empirical and maybe even just kind of whack lol

Harlequin · Apr 3, 2019

scitek said:
Simply adding a lower difficulty doesn't mean it will suddenly appeal to everyone. I like DMC 1, 4, and 5, but even on its "normal" difficulty (Special Edition), I found 3 to be frustrating by comparison. In cases like that, I'll use the easy mode to learn how to pull off combos and whatnot, which helps immensely for going back and tackling a higher difficulty later.

But if someone had no interest in playing something like Sekiro without an easy mode, chances are they still wouldn't want to with one.

Yeah, that's not what I said. I said that, sometimes, it's okay if a game just isn't for you. It doesn't need to be.

Trickster · Apr 3, 2019

Xiao Hu said:
TIL that asking for more accessibility options in an entertainment product, that can't be refunded, is borderline entitlement. People care way too much about how others want to enjoy or interpret art.

We have this topic with every Souls game. If anyone still buys Souls games and then get mad that it doesn't have an easy mode, and thus isn't for them, then that's entirely on them.

That's like me buying fifa 2019 and then getting mad because it's a fooball game

DrArchon · Apr 3, 2019

It's interesting how these discussions only come up when FROM releases a new game.

I don't remember these talks popping up at any other time. Do that many people really want to play FROM's games, or do they just not care that stuff like Destiny raids take tons of time and are therefore inherently inaccessible to many people? Or that Baba is You is really tough to puzzle through and provides no hints?

Doctor Avatar · Apr 3, 2019

Rendering... said:
Not including an easy mode is just exclusionary elitism.

This stuff clearly stems from severe FOMO and feeling left out, the bogey manning of people who enjoy Souls games. I can assure you nobody is thinking about you when they play souls borne games and cackling about how the games are somehow better because people they don't know and mean nothing to them are excluded. Again, the world does not revolve around you - they don't care. Just like FROM don't care either. They made the game they wanted to make, and that is ok.

"This game isn't for me, that is bad"

"FROM made a game not designed for me, therefore they are bad"

"People like a game I cannot play, therefore they are bad"

Except in each of those sentences, and thought processes, A does not lead to B. There is nothing bad about a game not being made for you, nothing bad about a developer making games for a specific audience and nothing bad about that specific audience liking the game.

You are not the audience for souls borne games. That's ok. I am not the audience for the new Yoshi game on Switch because it is too easy for me to enjoy it. That's ok. I'm not raging at Nintendo about the lack of a hardcore difficulty mode in Yoshi, what are you raging at FROM?

Deleted member 11038 · Apr 3, 2019

Altera said:
I love people who act like if From Software games added an easy mode that would somehow ruin the game. Elitists and nothing more.

Respecting Fromsoftware's and Miyazaki's idea of game challenge is not being elitist.

adz2ka · Apr 3, 2019

Hot take: Kingdom Hearts 3 difficulty (being too easy) caused more issues than Sekiro's difficulty.

Waffle-Stomper · Apr 3, 2019

Serene said:
I can still watch the whole film though

I'm not gated by what I do and don't understand

You can still watch a full play through of a difficult game.

EndlessNever · Apr 3, 2019

I am very sure From Software are aware of the impact hard games with no difficulty choice have sales wise. This still doesn't stop them from doing what their creative vision is, and also from early impressions, Sekiro has sold very well for a new IP.

Xiaomi · Apr 3, 2019

harry the spy said:
To be fair Furi's easy mode doesn't let you finish the game does it?

Neither does Cuphead's. You have to learn how to play both games to finish them.

As usual it's only From games that get this "easy mode or bust" treatment. No one's dragging Thumper or Elite: Dangerous or Trials Rising through the mud for not having difficulty settings, but action-adventure gamers need everything to be easy. And when devs capitulate and give them an easy mode (Mega Man 11), they complain it's not easy enough. Screw it, don't bother.

Exist 2 Inspire · Apr 3, 2019

Error 52 said:
Anthem and Fallout 76 are incompetently made, buggy messes with terribly designed gameplay.

And yet there are thousands and thousands of people out there playing these games right now and enjoying them. Sounds to me like you and me are just not the target audience? I mean it's just a ridiculous argument to dismiss this issue with "not for you" because you can literally apply this to any and all criticism.

ThreepQuest64 · Apr 3, 2019

Harlequin said:
Just like how playing a Souls game on easy wouldn't be the same as playing it how the devs intended you to play it.

Some people like to play instead of watching.

Crayolan · Apr 3, 2019

When a game which is normally difficult and requires a strong understanding of the mechanics has an easy mode in which the player can roll through the game without really learning how to play, it results in a very different experience depending on your difficulty selection and inevitably splits the fanbase. It also results in a lot of people who play on the lower difficulty "not getting it" because the lower difficulty doesn't actually ask the player to engage with the mechanics.

So while I wouldn't say the game is any lesser for the people who wouldn't play on easy regardless, introducing an easy mode in a game like souls also doesn't come with zero consequences.

Ferrio · Apr 3, 2019

The ironic thing about people wanting to be a part of the zeitgeist by adding difficulty modes is that it would most likely ruin it. A big part of these games is the community coming together and bashing heads on how to tackle stuff. Since the game is one experience, everyone is able to speak about their experiences on the same level. Soon as you add difficulty levels the single thing that binds the community together would be gone.

It's simple and elegant, and it's why the community and the talk about the games are so exciting and alluring to join.

TheRuralJuror · Apr 3, 2019

Daytak said:
So we should tell people with disabilities, who would benefit the most from easy modes, to just play something else?

If the game doesn't offer it and the dev doesn't seem interested in adding those options, then yeah. Maybe communicate with the dev, but other than that, not much else you can do.

KLoWn · Apr 3, 2019

Altera said:
Nope. Looks like you're the narrow minded one if the only reason you can come up with for why people want an easy mode is because they're "lazy"

How about you actually read the thread and you'll see a lot of other reasons, but yes, I do believe a good chunk of people who are complaining just can't be bothered to learn boss patterns and movements and prefer to scream about easy modes on forums instead.

MYeager · Apr 3, 2019

Mazinger said:
Reposting from another thread:

If an artist wishes to create a game experience by having the player face difficulty and overcome challenges, then I believe that should be respected. The personal accomplishment or narrative implications that would result from overcoming those barriers wouldn't be the same if the players knew they could have taken the easy way out at any time, as you'd be playing what's essentially a different game on Easy Mode.

If an artist wishes to do so they're also not beyond criticism or reproach for doing so. There are many reasons why it may not be possible, from resources to just not wanting to, having an option that may tempt players ain't one of them. Video games forever have solved that by providing more rewards, from either actual rewards in game to various skins, achievements, etc that serve as bragging rights, and also games that mock easier difficulty levels even as it provide them, like Ninja Dog difficulty or all the way back to the 'Can I Play, Daddy?' difficulty level in MS-DOS Wolfenstein.

They don't need to include it, but anything suggesting it's compromising a vision when it doesn't change the standard difficulty at all is nuts. If many people would be too tempted to play it on easy then they should reassess the balance of their risk/reward system in the game.

JABEE · Apr 3, 2019

Serene said:
I know people who watch some films in 1.25x speed sometimes. To me that seems wild because it kills the pacing and intent. It very much affects the content. But I'm not going to go off about how we should strip that option out of media.

People can do that if they want. Or skim a book. I guess I think the creator has a right to position their game the way they want. People can criticize them for not including the mode and people can not buy the game or be disappointed by it.

DerpHause · Apr 3, 2019

cabelhigh said:
I don't really think you can compare a video game to a shoe, sorry. Shoes are tools, games are entertainment. Tools have specific uses that by design aren't made for everyone; art and entertainment is generally made available for the widest audience.

To make a bad comparison, it might be an ordeal to sit the Hostel movies, but at least they are subtitled if I don't speak English. And video players give me the ability to skip past any scenes that I'm too squeamish for.

The bolded I fundamentally disagree with as an obligation. It's true as a business practice near ubiquitously from large scale publishers, but it's not a mandate of either. Entertainment has no obligation whatsoever to be any less restrictive than a tool. Music is an entire Genre of art that is wholly reliant on a single sense which is subject to disability. In the end it's no different.

Bizazedo · Apr 3, 2019

Daytak said:
So we should tell people with disabilities, who would benefit the most from easy modes, to just play something else?

As a disabled person, I can acknowledge playing it on a difficulty level specifically meant for someone who physically can't do it would be unsatisfying and borderline insulting.

I went to a skating rink when I was in elementary school once. Kids went out on their skates, went around, had fun. I was not allowed out.

Why not? I asked. I have more wheels, I'm electric, but I can go around in the circle with them! It'll be fun.

The owner came over, debated it, and allowed me out....with the requirement I had to be escorted by some of their employees. He didn't want to risk any chance of me colliding with someone.

It was fucking humiliating and I only stayed out for two-three laps.

This strikes me as the same. Here y'go, here's a pushover difficulty level. YAY YOU BEAT IT YOU'RE NORMAL HONEST DON'T YOU FEEL BETTER.

Fuck....that. If I can do it, I'll do it. If I can't and still want to see it, I'll go to YouTube.

Altera · Apr 3, 2019

KLoWn said:
How about you actually read the thread and you'll see a lot of other reasons, but yes, I do believe a good chunk of people who are complaining just can't be bothered to learn boss patterns and movements and prefer to scream about easy modes on forums instead.

I have read the thread, but I'm replying to YOU, and you're standing by your terrible, terrible reasoning.

Dizastah · Apr 3, 2019

I'm 42 with a wife, 2 kids and a full time job. Now I have no doubt that I could eventually finish Souls/Sekiro games, I just don't have the time to 'git gud' and go through retry after retry. The games look fun but most of the time I can see that they are just not for me. Do I wish there was a slightly less frustrating mode? Yes, but if there isn't it's just a no buy for me and a loss of a potential sale for From.

FIREKNIGHT2029 · Apr 3, 2019

I haven't even played Sekiro or Bloodborne (no time to dedicate to games like this anymore since I hit full adulthood) and I disagree with this idea. Devs should be allowed to make the type of game they want to make. If the game is too hard, move on to something else. Not every game needs to be appealing to a wide range of gamers. From Software games are known for being hard and challenging and the devs want to keep it that way. People complaining about the difficulty should move to other games that are more accommodating.

fiskyfisko · Apr 3, 2019

TaleSpun said:
"Core gamers aren't the only ones who play action games so it's necessary to make sure players of different levels can enjoy your game," Inaba cautioned. "It's important to widen the entry point of your game, but you also have to make sure that those who play straight through the path enjoy the experience." Depth, he said, is equally important.

To be honest, it feels like maybe Souls fans could just take a step back and consider that maybe Miyazaki's take on this stuff is not impiracle and maybe even just kind of whack lol

Yeh you then keep on widening that entry point with each new entry and you end up with whatever are today soul less mainstream AAA games. I don't want From to turn into next bioware because they have to make a game for everyone.

Pikachu · Apr 3, 2019

Solaris said:
FROM doesn't want an easy mode, otherwise they would have put it in.
FROM wants you to be challenged, that's one of the major appeals of their games.

That's really all there is to it. Keep thinking what you want overrides what the developers want, though. That's okay, but 'elitism' isn't.

What if easy mode is still a challenge for some people

Then people have been challenged

Crushed · Apr 3, 2019

Shadoken said:
It is a marketting thing too. If souls became easy , i doubt it would be as infamous as it is now.

DMC and Ninja Gaiden used to be like this back in the day. But look at DMC now ,

Serene · Apr 3, 2019

Waffle-Stomper said:
You can still watch a full play through of a difficult game.

Those two things aren't analogous though. Watching a game on YouTube is analogous to reading a plot summary of a movie on Wikipedia.

Marcus Brutalius · Apr 3, 2019

Sekiro doesn't need an easy mode. It needs a well balanced learning curve, which it clearly lacks.

Mantrox · Apr 3, 2019

Is this that much different than asking a director to make a movie with less violence or anything else you're not particularly fond of, in entertainment?
He can stipulate that an experience has to be a certain way. If you don't want to experience that, don't play.

Deleted member 1003 · Apr 3, 2019

Resident Evil 2 Remake wasn't ruined and I haven't touched easy. In fact, on plan on making it harder.

I get it, From games this gen and last didn't have easy mode or hard mode and that is fine. I love them.

But the idea that Easy Mode would ruin a game is false. And as a player, if you did choose Easy Mode, you would be perverted, fat or worse. Right Elodes?

electroaffe · Apr 3, 2019

And a shorter 90 min version of The Godfather wouldn't make the original version a worse movie. And a more accessible version of Led Zeppelin's Kashmir wouldn't ruin the song. And Nietzsche should have given more explanations for Zarathustra, so more people could enjoy his philosophy.

Respect the artists and their craft.
Not everyone wants their art to be watered down. Miyazaki's games follow a very unique design that doesn't work with an easy mode, so we should keep them the uncompromising masterpieces they are.

Xpike · Apr 3, 2019

hoju said:
So no one is allowed to criticize video games?

how did you get that out of my statement

Shadoken · Apr 3, 2019

Crushed said:

Damn guess maybe easy mode wasnt so easy then. Coz I clearly remember the titles being way more infamous back then than now.

MillionIII · Apr 3, 2019

cabelhigh said:
I don't really think you can compare a video game to a shoe, sorry. Shoes are tools, games are entertainment. Tools have specific uses that by design aren't made for everyone; art and entertainment is generally made available for the widest audience.

To make a bad comparison, it might be an ordeal to sit the Hostel movies, but at least they are subtitled if I don't speak English. And video players give me the ability to skip past any scenes that I'm too squeamish for.

Not true at all, I don't watch Bollywood for example because it's not made for me and I don't understand the language.

Altera · Apr 3, 2019

Crushed said:

Yep. And DMC having difficulty options didn't somehow "ruin" the game like people are pretending easy mode does.

Easy mode existing doesn't mean someone is forced to play that mode, but people are acting personally offended by just the *thought* of it.

TreeMePls · Apr 3, 2019

Ferrio said:
How much you wanna bet the Souls series wouldn't be anywhere near popular if it had difficulty levels when it first came out? It'd design philosophy is what caused it to gain notoriety, and people say that's not important?

I may be misremembering since its been a decade at this point, but didn't Demon's Souls get localized mostly from the demand that people had in the West since impressions from Japan were stating that it didnt hold hands unlike pretty much every release did up until that point?

NattyBo · Apr 3, 2019

MillionIII said:
Not true at all, I don't watch Bollywood for example because it's not made for me and I don't understand the language.

How do you know it's not made for you if you've never watched any? Also subtitles are definitely a thing

Kotaku: An easy mode has never ruined a game

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