Now THAT'S a cop-out.
I might be pushing it too far, but to me that sounds like 'It's a bad world, what does it matter what I do?'.
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Kingdom Come: Deliverance is one of the best RPG'S I've ever played
- Thread starter Baphomet
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Now THAT'S a cop-out.
I might be pushing it too far, but to me that sounds like 'It's a bad world, what does it matter what I do?'.
We're not shitting up anything, nor are we going anywhere. Problematic views of people directly related to a games development and publication is always on topic for any discussion related to said games, and thankfully the mod team agrees.
How is it not?
However some consumption is still more ethical than others. For instance I can choose an RPG not made under the purview of somebody who loudly supported a harassment campaign.
Bathing is super easy when you realize most towns have tubs out that you can wash in, and food you can easily get from any tavern for free as well as your house (bit pot of stew that you can eat from).
Then there's bathhouses which provide you with the best cleaning of both your clothes, etc. (more then the tubs do).
It's not hard at all to keep up with either really.
The save system has three ways to save, one relies on having a certain drink that when you use it it lets you save, then you can save if you sleep which is easier to do as well and lastly, when you exit the game it saves too.
ON pc you can always mod it to let you save without having a drink on you for that, so if you'd like to be able to save anywhere without having to horde those drinks or buy them that's one way to get around it.
If you don't play on hard core or whatever the ultra simulationist option is called those elements do not come up much. You need to eat and sleep occasionally but there are plenty of easy/cheap opportunities to do so in the game world. It helps if you bathe when trying diplomancy. But generally it's not really a deal breaker.
The saving system is a bigger issue, true. Basically it is a "save points only" (the game only saves when you go to sleep and possibly autosaves at certain points if you have that option turned on), but you can brew/buy a special drink that allows you to save anywhere (and gets you drunk, possibly alcoholic even eventually). There are mods who allow you to save anywhere though, if you want to. I surprisingly ended up not having many issues with it in the end, even though I expected to hate it.
EDIT: right, they eventually implemented save&quit too, after I was already done with the game
I mean if you live in a first world country you are undoubtedly giving money to terrible corporations who are much worse for the world than some racist guy on Twitter who owns a game studio. If someone wants a nice RPG and this scratches that itch I won't berate them for it. Just like I don't berate people who eat at Chikfila or shop at Amazon. Everyone has a right to not support these things for moral reasons if they choose, and I don't berate them either.
Sure, you do you and I largely agree - but the blank slate that is 'eh, everything's shit anyway so whatever I do doesn't matter' isn't a great philosophical position imo.
And that's fine, just like someone choosing not to support Chikfila is fine. I don't berate those that do though. Amazon is up there for companies I despise the most, and I try not to use it best I can. I don't berate my roommates whenever they get an Amazon package though. Inform people so they can choose what they consume, but I think the post I quoted was a bit loaded and wanted to comment.
I can't see anybody being berated for playing the game though. All I'm seeing is signal boosting of the dev's beliefs, which I think is a grain of salt that should accompany every discussion of this game.
Game ran like arse on my PC. So much jank and so many bugs, so I decided to uninstall after like 5 hours
Except that this thread was to talk about how good or bad the game is, not the controversy sourrounding its director. I wish derailment policies were applied in every scenario and not just arbitrarily.
There are some people like me that agree with the issues that people have with its creator and STILL would like to be able to have a thread somewhere sometime to be able to discuss the quality of the game. But seems impossible here.
Im considering picking this up for PC once im done with DMC5.
There is this mod overhaul which was recommended in rpgcodex review
https://www.nexusmods.com/kingdomcomedeliverance/mods/651
It's decent, I still find hard to get through all the jank despite finishing the game, can't see me replaying it. The suffering!
It looked very intriguing and I was digging the whole "classic RPG in an authentic historical setting" concept but then I read up on how the game treats female and gay characters (the former are apparently mainly presented as passive objects without much agency and the only two gay characters are apparently vile bad guys) and was like "thanks, but no thanks". The story is also supposedly told through a somewhat nationalist filter where some information is withheld or altered to make one group of people look morally superior to others, etc. Would love to play a version of this game that wasn't written by a right-winger.
Are you really attempting to downplay Daniel Vavra's bullshit? Dude was signal boosting far right propaganda and it is clear as day what Gamer Gate was about since its very inception, he fucking knew what movement he was aligning himself with. Fuck off with your attempt to frame his racism as him being just an ass hole, fuck off with your attempt to frame him as merely a conservative, when he was signal boosting Nazi propaganda. You're full of shit dude.
Mod team sanctioned derailment is always good time and lets not pretend that discussions about e.g. questionable or abhorrent political views of game dev team member don't absolutely derail and hijack general discussion threads about their game(s).
I am actually fine with the stink of the developer's views following this game wherever it goes. To me it'd almost be irresponsible for it not to be brought up.
Same goes for The Last Night too.
Same goes for The Last Night too.
If you think about it, it's not even technically possible to post a comment like your's, on the internet, without supporting something as bad or worse than what's being discussed here.
Not saying you shouldn't point these things out, but there's just no way of not being hypocritical about it, but still reaching an audience and having the desired effect.
As for the game, I quit it the second I realized the starting tutorials were mandatory and it wouldn't let me jump the fence and run into the world straight away, even if just to die to the first enemy/obstacle.
For some reason that made me really frustrated and I never went back to it.
I keep meaning to get back into this game. I started it and was really into it, and then something came up and I had to abandon it for a bit.
Deal with it, Vavra is the face of Warhorse and Kingdom Come. I followed the Kickstarter very closely before Vavra chose to publicly shit the bed, I watched the development diaries and read the updates, Vavra was plastered all over it.
The person in question has oversight and input on crucial high-level decisions. The person in question still did, likely, a minority of work on the game. Not the grunt work or implementation work or marketing or art or bug fixing, which will have been handled by tens of other people. (I'm being a tiny bit disingenuous - he'll have done a lot of that stuff, but I mean the entire team have done the majority of work - it's a huge collaboration, so pinning the label "most important" on anyone is daft.
Think about your workplace. Assuming you have a boss, would you be OK if people started slandering and boycotting YOUR work because your boss got outed as an intolerant/prejudiced person?
Or think about a film set, where it's easier to visualise all the roles and how one person does not represent the whole effort.
Scene: The director is one dude standing behind a camera to one side. There are three large camera rigs scattered around, each with up to three other staff members around them (grips, dolly guys, camera operators). There are two sound guys. There is a first assistant director, two second assistant directors, two third assistant directors. There are three runners. There are five make-up artists. There are five costumes and dress artists and one costumes director. There are several script supervisors. There are two producers. There are several actors.
After the film comes out, it turns out the director is an intolerant, sexist asshole.
Does this one person's beliefs/actions represent the beliefs of (and invalidate the joint collaborative work of) the other 35+ people who were on set, putting in absurd hours and graft to make a good creative work?
And this is before we even get to the tens of people in pre-production and post-production, at the publisher/studio, at all the outsourced agencies, etc, etc.
Yes, the director behind Kingdom Come: Deliverance was an asshole and for me (as well as you, I'm sure) that has "tainted" the product somewhat. It's a totally understandable feeling and it's human nature to simplify and reduce big events or products to the level of individuals. But the reality is that this guy is a mid-sized cog in a very large machine where tens of smaller and larger cogs did tons of honest work and we can't smear HIS belief across all of them and count their work as invalid because of this.
I suppose there's an argument that by slandering the game or boycotting it based on his beliefs we send the message that this sort of thing isn't acceptable. That's the only rebuttal I could see here. But it doesn't work out anyway because 99% of the audience who buy the game will never hear about his beliefs or have any knowledge of this situation.
They were happy to let Vávra be the face of the studio and the game, despite his bullshit.
While I agree with this idea in principle (separating the artist from their work), in practice, that doesn't change the fact that his problematic viewpoints have (according to others who have played the game) actually found their way into the product, even if only subversively. If you could separate his viewpoints from the game, I would gladly play it but from what I've read, you actually cannot (not unless you willfully ignore certain aspects of the game).
Exactly and that reflects poorly on the company as a whole, which shouldn't really be that hard to grasp.
To what extent are his viewpoints actually reflected in the game? I wasn't aware of this. :grimace:
It's absolutely understandable that it reflects poorly on the company, as it should. On my end I'm only defending the game because I work closely with teams who make such products and feel the need to stand for the team as a whole (and their work) – seeing that the work and effort of these tens or hundreds of people get reduced to 0 because one senior member is an asshole just isn't right, even if in terms of optics/politics I'm totally with you.
I got a bug on "The Charlatan" side quest last year - but have been doing the No Girlfirend / No killing run this year and have run across no bugs.
To add to the others, seriously great RPG, have not enjoyed one as much since my first Elder Scrolls experience.
The combat system is fantastic and deep once you get over the "I expect to press one button and perfectly hit / parry my foe every time syndrome."
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I need to go back and finish it. I enjoyed it at launch but quit because of the bugs. But it was one of the better RPG's released last year.
And can we go one fucking topic in this game without the topic getting completely derailed?
And can we go one fucking topic in this game without the topic getting completely derailed?
Obviously, I'm relying on other people's reports here since I haven't played the game so I cannot personally vouch for their accuracy but I've read more than once that there are several issues with the game's story:
-Female characters are portrayed to be largely passive with little agency
-The only two gay characters shown in the game are bad guys and reportedly portrayed as being pretty bad people
-The political conflicts in the game are portrayed with a certain nationalist tinge that ignores/leaves out some groups' viewpoints or motivations in order to make another group look more heroic/righteous than they maybe actually were
I loved what I played of the game, 10-ish hours on PC. But I got sidetracked by other games. I will definitely return to the game at some point and finish it as it felt quite unique.
Lots of changes. Someone that has tested can tell us please if this is recommended for a first playthrough or not?
I'm really liking Warhorse as developers. KCD was a proper RPG and a nice surprise. I remember seeing it being crowd funded for years but I never imagined it would be such a success.
Hopefully now with more funding they can roll out the continuation of KCD. I'd like them to follow in the footsteps of CDPR and become a big player. They certainly have the talent.
Hopefully now with more funding they can roll out the continuation of KCD. I'd like them to follow in the footsteps of CDPR and become a big player. They certainly have the talent.
I can picture all that being true. I own the game but haven't dug deep into it yet. Will be interested to see how this pans out.
Quick FYI - I wasn't touting Death of the Author or separating art/from artist above. My main argument here is that these creative projects are giant collaborations on multiple, intense levels. These projects are bigger and more complex, with more moving parts, than a film from a few decades ago or, say, a novel or painting or sculture (which is mainly one person's output). Basically I'm saying it's like knocking down a whole bridge because one of the supporting struts is problematic. This director guy is only a small part of the puzzle, really - as much as he's important. A load-bearing strut.
Of course what you're saying about the game's content sounds pretty shitty in many ways. But we can't know how much he decided on all these things. (Probably a decent amount, but lots of other people will have written and developed side quests and scripts and such.)
I have heard great things about the game as well but I can't bring myself to justify purchasing it given how closely it is linked to GG supporter.
As someone who appreciates your aid with Xbox related issues, this is disappointing.
As someone who appreciates your aid with Xbox related issues, this is disappointing.
My game of the year and probably top 3 of this gen so far. Highly recommend it.
Also, I want to add, if you guys don't want to derail a thread, maybe don't antagonize each other, its pretty easy to ignore people.
A lot of this has been discussed to death already.
Also, I want to add, if you guys don't want to derail a thread, maybe don't antagonize each other, its pretty easy to ignore people.
A lot of this has been discussed to death already.
Whenever the complete edition releases I'll consider picking it up.
DLC doesn't seem that great but like TW3, I'll prefer a complete package for this.
Bethesda games are a disgrace, so I'm sort of relying on good EuroJank to fill in the gaps till the next CDPR monster.
DLC doesn't seem that great but like TW3, I'll prefer a complete package for this.
Bethesda games are a disgrace, so I'm sort of relying on good EuroJank to fill in the gaps till the next CDPR monster.
I really need to give this one another go. I played it but got distracted early on and never got back into it.
I love the game too, I really appreciate the historicity of it, specially reading at the codex and see how that research translates into the game.
The game is super janky but I can deal with it, I just think about that as in real life things may not work well always.
The survival mechanics literally raised the bar for open world games for me. After playing it, I just need open world games to require you to rest, eat and combat to leave injures that heal over time.
The game is super janky but I can deal with it, I just think about that as in real life things may not work well always.
The survival mechanics literally raised the bar for open world games for me. After playing it, I just need open world games to require you to rest, eat and combat to leave injures that heal over time.
I couldn't get into it. Nothing I played in it made me want to come back to it after playing 5 or 6 hours.
He's the director. I do not think "let" is the correct verb to use here.
Agree OP, I don't think I've played a more immersive RPG in recent years. The progression system is amazing, you actually feel when you're improving at combat/archery naturally rather than after putting a point on a skill tree. I hope some other devs can borrow that idea into their games.
Ah, sorry for misinterpreting your post. I tend to be of the opinion that, if the work is something I would like and if it wasn't created under problematic/objectionable circumstances, then I'll usually try and ignore any grievances I might have with its creators, though there are certainly exceptions to that rule if said grievances are too big to ignore. And often times, those types of creators tend to make works I would not enjoy anyway (as is the case here where I probably would enjoy the gameplay but the story seems to be too tainted by Vavra's viewpoints for me to want to play the game).
My brother played through the entire game on OG ps4 with out too many issues, it really is up to how much that stuff affects you (I probably wouldn't be able to do it).
He's the creative director and one of two founders.
It's not like it's his studio alone and there is no one who can tell him to tone that shit down.
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