Just Write: Attack on Titan and the Dangers of Allegory (SPOILERS)

HustleBun · Mar 1, 2021

KujoJosuke said:
Also a lot of the Titans are based on real people. The whole cast of GoT is spread around, as well as Saul Goodman from Better Call Saul

I should find this funny but the "Realistic" style of the titan faces compared to the anime-looking citizens made them 10x more terrifying.

It was really effective.

Deleted member 52442 · Mar 1, 2021

Platy said:
The video is more "the text says one thing what is shown says another" type of "the dude probably had the right intentions but failed to pass it" analysis of the problem of failing analogy

It's a shame this video wasn't exactly impartial but most people agree Isayama was careless with imagery

Platy · Mar 1, 2021

Kegels said:
It's a shame this video wasn't exactly impartial but most people agree Isayama was careless with imagery

What do you mean by impartial ?

He says he believes the intent was good as his conclusion (and he kinda starts with it), he talks a lot about not knowing "where does the allegory supposed to end?" type of given the benefit of the doubt lots of time ...

HustleBun · Mar 1, 2021

Kegels said:
It's a shame this video wasn't exactly impartial but most people agree Isayama was careless with imagery

Yeah. I don't know how AoT ends but thus far, the story is overtly anti-fascist.

That said, Isayama is walking in some very delicate territory in trying to use Palestine and the haulocost as allegories for his tale. I'm not convinced that he's using them in a responsible way.

Deleted member 52442 · Mar 1, 2021

Platy said:
What do you mean by impartial ?

He says he believes the intent was good as his conclusion (and he kinda starts with it), he talks a lot about not knowing "where does the allegory supposed to end?" type of given the benefit of the doubt lots of time ...

I mean the way he deliberately frames some of the aspects of AoT to fit his argument, like with saying the titans are antisemitic or that the series supports military coups when the series is right now dealing with another potential military coup the characters are not at all in favor of

in fact the series is trending towards exploring the negatives implications of a lot of the aspects that the "good guys" exhibited for most of the series, though we don't really know how that's going to unravel

Lunar Wolf · Mar 1, 2021

mael said:
I mean the whole manga started from his PoV and it's kind of a trope that you have the reader identify with the protagonist.
On top of that, Eren is shown as the chosen one.
While a lot of characters start to see that there's a HUGE problem with that insane guy being the chosen one, they're mostly shown in a negative light.
And then Eren do warcrimes and then you have people who were rooting for him all this time that either realize that they put on a pedestal a literal monster (with some tells that could be dismissed as "the author is not doing the usual stuffs so the part of Eren that's off is really just the flavor of AoT being unlike other mangas) or they choose to refuse that Eren is indeed a goddamn bastard that needs to be put down like all villains.

It's interesting in a way because we can make a parallel with the real world where you have people cheering literal fascist autocrats unironically and we have a case study on how that can happen even if the genocidal autocrat is fictional.

Like seriously that a significant part of the AoT fandom could cheer for the monster that wears Eren's skin should scare the shit out of anyone who will then realize they have to share their democracies with them.
If they can cheer for a genocidal autocrat in make-believe world when it's clearly presented to them that the genocidal autocrat is wrong, it's absolutely clear that people who follow real life genocidal autocrats will never be swayed back to reason.

Good post.

I want to add that Eren is a much better done version of what

Game of Thrones tried to do with Daenerys Targaryen.

Platy · Mar 1, 2021

Kegels said:
I mean the way he deliberately frames some of the aspects of AoT to fit his argument, like with saying the titans are antisemitic or that the series supports military coups when the series is right now dealing with another potential military coup the characters are not at all in favor of

he does not say they ARE antisemitic. They say that they features problems that can be read as such.

Having military coup that you are not in favor after having one you were in favor does not makes a person against military coups, it makes then against SOME military coups. That is the same as saying they have the same international policy as the USA which is ... not good if you are not the usa.

Like i said, the video basically starts with saying his conclusions are that the author has the heart in the right place.
The video is not calling "attack on titan is a fascist antisemitic garbage" it is "the dangers of allegory" and said danger is implying shit you don't want it to imply

Spork4000 · Mar 1, 2021

Kegels said:
I mean the way he deliberately frames some of the aspects of AoT to fit his argument, like with saying the titans are antisemitic or that the series supports military coups when the series is right now dealing with another potential military coup the characters are not at all in favor of

Gotta remember the video only goes to what he's seen, and judging from his b-roll he's a dubs guy. I'm a dubs guy and I didn't know there was another military coup in the show. The coup that happens is weird and treated as the right thing to do at the time. Sure the show might get to the point where it says "dictatorships are bad" but I haven't gotten there yet and I doubt the writer of the video has yet.

Also he didn't just say "the titans are anti-Semitic" how aspects of the Titans can be construed as anti-Semitic. Like he said in the video it's not as simple as "thing bad" or "thing good."

mael · Mar 1, 2021

Lunar Wolf said:
Good post.

I want to add that Eren is a much better done version of what

Game of Thrones tried to do with Daenerys Targaryen.

As far as I can tell Daenerys is a still a good version....if you stay in books...

Fj0823 · Mar 1, 2021

Platy said:
he does not say they ARE antisemitic. They say that they features problems that can be read as such.

Having military coup that you are not in favor after having one you were in favor does not makes a person against military coups, it makes then against SOME military coups. That is the same as saying they have the same international policy as the USA which is ... not good if you are not the usa.

Like i said, the video basically starts with saying his conclusions are that the author has the heart in the right place.
The video is not calling "attack on titan is a fascist antisemitic garbage" it is "the dangers of allegory" and said danger is implying shit you don't want it to imply

The series literally shows that THIS military coup is blowing up in the faces of the characters in an extremely similar fashion to the one they orchestrated. Like a character has her own words thrown back at her by the same press she used to support the first coup.

Are you even watching the series?

Deleted member 52442 · Mar 1, 2021

Platy said:
he does not say they ARE antisemitic. They say that they features problems that can be read as such.

Having military coup that you are not in favor after having one you were in favor does not makes a person against military coups, it makes then against SOME military coups. That is the same as saying they have the same international policy as the USA which is ... not good if you are not the usa.

Like i said, the video basically starts with saying his conclusions are that the author has the heart in the right place.
The video is not calling "attack on titan is a fascist antisemitic garbage" it is "the dangers of allegory" and said danger is implying shit you don't want it to imply

Right, but the original military coup he was criticisizing was an overthrow of a corrupt government. Why would anyone be against that at face value? But Just Write is saying the idea of military coups in general is dangerous.

And then that's later explored by the series itself, as we're potentially seeing now. Because who really determines if a government is corrupt when it's not so black and white? (and by the way this second, negative coup is unmentioned by him in this video)

So if it happens in a way where we initially support it, and then the creator turns it on its head to promote critical thinking, is the creator still at fault for introducing that plot element in the first place? in my opinion, not really, not in this case

Mifec · Mar 1, 2021

As someone who reread and caught up to the manga I can deffo agree with people that Isayama isn't some hidden fascists. The takeaway that he is carless is kinda true but I think it stems from not just that. He just isn't a good writer. He had a strong start up until Annie crystalizes and after that it just devolves into a really meh melodrama. To the point where Floch became the only fun char in the manga.

Don't open anime onlies

The fact that the only enjoyment I got from SnK in the last idk how many chapters just what kind of a hilarious on the nose caricature of an SS officer Floch becomes tells you just how boring Isayama's writing is in general now, not to mention the whole Greensight bullshit he pulled from GoT.

Deleted member 52442 · Mar 1, 2021

Spork4000 said:
Gotta remember the video only goes to what he's seen, and judging from his b-roll he's a dubs guy. I'm a dubs guy and I didn't know there was another military coup in the show. The coup that happens is weird and treated as the right thing to do at the time. Sure the show might get to the point where it says "dictatorships are bad" but I haven't gotten there yet and I doubt the writer of the video has yet.

Also he didn't just say "the titans are anti-Semitic" how aspects of the Titans can be construed as anti-Semitic. Like he said in the video it's not as simple as "thing bad" or "thing good."

It's true he's using dubs, but then he also used some portions from the most recent episode subbed/manga so it's honestly hard to tell how exactly he's consuming the show. If he's a dub guy purely then he was premature on some aspects of this video, and actually may have been premature on some aspects of it in general regardless (minus the Isayama being careless with imagery point)

Yeha he didn't say they're antisemitic, but he said that some of them have big noses is being used to promoted antisemitism. But then what's the point, that none of the titans should have had big noses? I mean i guess maybe

Doc Kelso · Mar 1, 2021

WrenchNinja said:
A little bit here, a little bit there, hence plausible deniability. If you don't want to believe there is even a chance of it, especially with every other weird choice done with this manga/anime, that is your choice.

This is the most bad faith argument I've seen in a long time. Your argument boils down to that there are a certain set of physical features that cannot be used when designing a character or else you fall into plausible deniability about anti-Semitism.

NaDannMaGoGo · Mar 1, 2021

WrenchNinja said:
A little bit here, a little bit there, hence plausible deniability. If you don't want to believe there is even a chance of it, especially with every other weird choice done with this manga/anime, that is your choice.

No, that has nothing to do with plausible deniability.

If legit the smallest of fractions of heavily disfigured, disproportional titans have what could be described as large and/or hooked noses, then cherry-picking those makes for a ridiculously dishonest argument.

That's just all there is to that argument. It's bullshit.

These are some quick Titan-crowd shots from within the manga up to Season 2. I could do the same for the rest of the entire manga and you probably wouldn't see a single crowd shot where the noses were somehow the most noticeable body parts.

Spork4000 · Mar 1, 2021

Kegels said:
Right, but the original military coup he was criticisizing was an overthrow of a corrupt government. Why would anyone be against that at face value? But Just Write is saying the idea of military coups in general is dangerous.

And then that's later explored by the series itself, as we're potentially seeing now. Because who really determines if a government is corrupt when it's not so black and white? (and by the way this second, negative coup is unmentioned by him in this video)

So if it happens in a way where we initially support it, and then the creator turns it on its head to promote critical thinking, is the creator still at fault for introducing that plot element in the first place? in my opinion, not really, not in this case

Like I said earlier, if he's a dub watcher he might not know about the other military coup, I didn't know about the second military coup until you started posting a ton about it in this thread, thanks for that one. Also the issue is that the first one was framed as a "good" military coup, which I could be wrong about, but to my knowledge has never been a thing in history. It's the kind of story you would write to justify a military coup, which again, has some issues.

Kegels said:
It's true he's using dubs, but then he also used some portions from the most recent episode subbed/manga so it's honestly hard to tell how exactly he's consuming the show. If he's a dub guy purely then he was premature on some aspects of this video, and actually may have been premature on some aspects of it in general regardless (minus the Isayama being careless with imagery point)

Yeha he didn't say they're antisemitic, but he said that some of them have big noses is being used to promoted antisemitism. But then what's the point, that none of the titans should have had big noses? I mean i guess maybe

I'm actually curious how he's consuming it now too. I listened to it on the way to work today but just went back and some spoilers that I basically tuned out for when I first listened are definitely further then where I am. Also, well now I feel annoyed about that.

Deleted member 52442 · Mar 1, 2021

Spork4000 said:
Like I said earlier, if he's a dub watcher he might not know about the other military coup, I didn't know about the second military coup until you started posting a ton about it in this thread, thanks for that one. Also the issue is that the first one was framed as a "good" military coup, which I could be wrong about, but to my knowledge has never been a thing in history. It's the kind of story you would write to justify a military coup, which again, has some issues.

Welp sorry, but his video includes a portion from same episode/chapter as the coup so
I really don't know where he's expecting people to be in the story beyond the most recent sub episode.

NookSports · Mar 1, 2021

Maybe I'm dumb, but even though I recognized the very obvious holocaust references, Eldians have never read as jewish to me; but German. They look German, have mostly Germanic names, Paradis' architecture looks like old school Germany. The cruelty of the ancient empire was to me a reference to either WWI or WWII Germany. The whole series was to me, more of a: "What if the world had paid Germans with the same coin after the wars."

Sesha · Mar 1, 2021

WrenchNinja said:
A little bit here, a little bit there, hence plausible deniability. If you don't want to believe there is even a chance of it, especially with every other weird choice done with this manga/anime, that is your choice.

Sure, I debunked the idea, and you've given no counter-proof, so whatever. Concession accepted.

WrenchNinja · Mar 1, 2021

Doc Kelso said:
This is the most bad faith argument I've seen in a long time. Your argument boils down to that there are a certain set of physical features that cannot be used when designing a character or else you fall into plausible deniability about anti-Semitism.

I didn't argue that? I said that when you're designing characters on top of other odd choices like "discriminated group actually secretly controls the world", then yeah, it's a bad look.

BassForever · Mar 1, 2021

I agree with the broad stroke that "the author was careless with his allegory and maybe needed to think it through" but at some point you have to acknowledge the blunt "war is bad, racism is bad, facism is bad" stick the series keeps whacking you in the head with.

I think the videos biggest failing is what I think is supposed to be it's biggest gatcha, that white supremacist are "reading between the lines and posting it on 4chan". White supremacist "read between the lines" for literally any piece of media to come up with whatever conclusion fits their world view. These are people who believe in "alternative facts" and will literally deny reality or completely 180 their opinion on something or someone on a whim if it furthers their agenda. The amount of side by side "sjws ruin mandalorian by casting a female" and "sjws cancel our iconic sw female" take images from alt right clowns will make your head spin.

Secondly going into a site full of white supremacists to see how they interpret a piece of fiction is selection bias at it's worst. Even if the series made every change the video suggested and masterfully told it's allegory where there was no doubt where the author stood, you'd likely still find the exact same interpretations on those sites.

It's also not a point the video brings up, but I feel since s4 of the anime aired the amount of

Eren is right, genocide is the only option, wipe out all the non Eldians and then the world can finally be at peace

takes to be fairly alarming. It's also why I think the antisemitic criticism falls flat considering

If white supremacists did take Eldians = Jews seriously, they wouldn't have hard pivoted into genocide of the marleans/non jews by an eldean/jew is the right answer. That would basically be admitting that wiping out nazis/white supremacist (like themselves) is a good thing. In my experience it seems like white supremacists alternate facts/twisted the allegory to be "white savior (Eren) is saving the world by wiping out all the others". It does go back to the original "the author didn't think his allegory through" critique, but it goes to my point that white supremacists will interpret anything to fit their sick world views.

Ruisu · Mar 1, 2021

Man that was probably the most detailed video that is entirely about completely misreading the messages of the work you're analyzing.

jman1954goat · Mar 1, 2021

Before I look at the thread anime spoilers only or Manga spoilers too?

Deleted member 52442 · Mar 1, 2021

jman1954goat said:
Before I look at the thread anime spoilers only or Manga spoilers too?

anime up till the latest episode (subbed)

Platy · Mar 1, 2021

Kegels said:
Right, but the original military coup he was criticisizing was an overthrow of a corrupt government. Why would anyone be against that at face value? But Just Write is saying the idea of military coups in general is dangerous.

Today in "how to say you are not from south america without actually saying"

Nothing good ever came from a military coup, corrupt goverment or not.

Revolutions and other types of coups? that can work.
Military coup ? nothing good comes from that, trust me. Not even fixing corruption.

You have a better argument saying they are closer to police than military than arguing there are good military coups.

NaDannMaGoGo said:
These are some quick Titan-crowd shots from within the manga up to Season 2. I could do the same for the rest of the entire manga and you probably wouldn't see a single crowd shot where the noses were somehow the most noticeable body parts.

I counted 4 big noses or hooked noses in your images.

Fj0823 said:
Are you even watching the series?

Yes.
What you really want to know if i am up to date with everything that is avaliable and the answer is not even close

Deleted member 52442 · Mar 1, 2021

Platy said:
Today in "how to say you are not from south america without actually saying"

Nothing good ever came from a military coup, corrupt goverment or not.

Revolutions and other types of coups? that can work.
Military coup ? nothing good comes from that, trust me. Not even fixing corruption.

You have a better argument saying they are closer to police than military than arguing there are good military coups.

Fair enough, I don't really know the history of coups, military or not. Im down with the general idea of over throwing a corrupt government. But either way Isayama is apparently showing how what the characters did got thrown back in their faces so

Arkeband · Mar 1, 2021

WrenchNinja said:
I didn't argue that? I said that when you're designing characters on top of other odd choices like "discriminated group actually secretly controls the world", then yeah, it's a bad look.

but... they're not designed that way, especially not in the "often" framing the video essayist asserts.

Plover · Mar 1, 2021

The use of armbands in the series might be uncomfortable and clumsy for some people and that's fine, but too many people insist that Eldians are a jewish allegory and they just aren't. Isayama is more likely to be drawing on the history of imperialism in his own country.

Also, the humans and titans in the story have always had a large and frankly refreshing variation in noses, so if you're specifically looking for a couple of hooked ones ofc you're gonna find them.

Oddish1 · Mar 1, 2021

BassForever said:
I agree with the broad stroke that "the author was careless with his allegory and maybe needed to think it through" but at some point you have to acknowledge the blunt "war is bad, racism is bad, facism is bad" stick the series keeps whacking you in the head with.

I think the videos biggest failing is what I think is supposed to be it's biggest gatcha, that white supremacist are "reading between the lines and posting it on 4chan". White supremacist "read between the lines" for literally any piece of media to come up with whatever conclusion fits their world view. These are people who believe in "alternative facts" and will literally deny reality or completely 180 their opinion on something or someone on a whim if it furthers their agenda. The amount of side by side "sjws ruin mandalorian by casting a female" and "sjws cancel our iconic sw female" take images from alt right clowns will make your head spin.

Secondly going into a site full of white supremacists to see how they interpret a piece of fiction is selection bias at it's worst. Even if the series made every change the video suggested and masterfully told it's allegory where there was no doubt where the author stood, you'd likely still find the exact same interpretations on those sites.

You absolutely can write works that white supremacists can't or won't read into. It's part of the reason why that freak out at things like the She-Ra reboot or Steven Universe or Black Panther or whatever. It is so blatantly against their own worldview that they refuse to engage with it in the first place.

I agree that white nationalists reading their own interpretation into a work does not necessarily mean that the work itself is problematic but there also needs to be a point of examining why they are adopting a work as an endorsement of their worldview and thinking of ways to prevent this in the future.

electroshockwave · Mar 1, 2021

Oddish1 said:
You absolutely can write works that white supremacists can't or won't read into. It's part of the reason why that freak out at things like the She-Ra reboot or Steven Universe or Black Panther or whatever. It is so blatantly against their own worldview that they refuse to engage with it in the first place.

Actually they were using Black Panther to argue that ethnostates are a good thing.

Kurdel · Mar 1, 2021

Having binged the anime and the manga in the last week, there is too much handwringing clickbait and the anime only people need to chill or go read the manga if they are that stressed.

Slatsunus · Mar 1, 2021

Oddish1 said:
You absolutely can write works that white supremacists can't or won't read into. It's part of the reason why that freak out at things like the She-Ra reboot or Steven Universe or Black Panther or whatever. It is so blatantly against their own worldview that they refuse to engage with it in the first place.

I agree that white nationalists reading their own interpretation into a work does not necessarily mean that the work itself is problematic but there also needs to be a point of examining why they are adopting a work as an endorsement of their worldview and thinking of ways to prevent this in the future.

White nationalists praised BP because they thought it was saying that an ethnostate is a good thing and Killmonger shows the "danger" of letting outsiders in.

Oddish1 · Mar 1, 2021

electroshockwave said:
Actually they were using Black Panther to argue that ethnostates are a good thing.

Yeah, I wasn't sure if I should include it for that reason but keep in mind that them doing this was after multiple failed attempts at doing things like downvoting its Rotten Tomato score, accusing it of being "anti-white", and trying to get #Wakandaisntreal trending. For that I believe it was primarily a PR move to try and refrain it in that way rather than naturally coming to the conclusion BP was pushing ethnostate ideas. I doubt very many, if anyone, actually believed what they were saying when they were pushing this idea. I also don't think it ever really picked up much steam as an argument because white nationalists aren't still watching Black Panther and praising its ethnostate ideas. At least not where I look. The idea that Black Panther is alt-right is a way of pushing back against Black Panther rather than them sincerely adopting the movie.

But you are right to bring it up, so thank you.

Manu · Mar 1, 2021

Platy said:
I counted 4 big noses or hooked noses in your images.

And I counted 45 titans with visible features.

That's less than 10%, nowhere near enough to say it happens "very often."

tobascodagama · Mar 1, 2021

The "good" coup in this show was overthrowing a shadowy cabal that mind-controlled the populace into believing a false version of history. Which is literally what modern anti-semites claim is happening in our world?

Maybe Isayama is unfamiliar with that particular kind of conspiracy theory and how it resonates with his work, but at some point you have to say, "Hey, this guy is playing with fire, and I don't think he understands the extent to which he is doing so".

NexusCell · Mar 1, 2021

Oddish1 said:
Yeah, I wasn't sure if I should include it for that reason but keep in mind that them doing this was after multiple failed attempts at doing things like downvoting its Rotten Tomato score, accusing it of being "anti-white", and trying to get #Wakandaisntreal trending. For that I believe it was primarily a PR move to try and refrain it in that way rather than naturally coming to the conclusion BP was pushing ethnostate ideas. I doubt very many, if anyone, actually believed what they were saying when they were pushing this idea. I also don't think it ever really picked up much steam as an argument because white nationalists aren't still watching Black Panther and praising its ethnostate ideas. At least not where I look. The idea that Black Panther is alt-right is a way of pushing back against Black Panther rather than them sincerely adopting the movie.

But you are right to bring it up, so thank you.

That just tells you that White supremacists can and will try to twist the themes and messages of popular media to fit their world view. It's also their method of "tainting" popular media so they can incite twitter users into claiming that "X is associated/popular/resonates with white supremacists"

tobascodagama · Mar 1, 2021

Like maybe he's trying to play rhetorical rope-a-dope with fascists, but if so it might be the case that he's not very good at doing that?

Deleted member 16876 · Mar 1, 2021

I agree that Isayama could have used better imagery for the manga as it just leads to confusion. Things like the arm bands and stuff like that should have probably been used in a different way.

With that said, I disagree that the manga is supporting fascism. It is the opposite. The manga actually makes that clear over and over. Heck, one time Isayama basically made characters talk in a somewhat cartoonish way to make it clear that fascism is bad.

It is hard to give examples without spoilers so I feel people should wait or go read the manga to make sure if they feel uncomfortable with what is being shown in the anime.

Froyo Love · Mar 1, 2021

absolutely fucking amazed at the people in this thread breaking out the calipers to debate how well ACTUALLY, only x% of these flesh-eating monsters derived exclusively from a Jewish-coded ethnic group have big honkers, so showing this one disgusting hook-nosed abomination in the video is DISINGENUOUS

do you fucking hear yourselves? don't do that shit.

Oddish1 · Mar 1, 2021

NexusCell said:
That just tells you that White supremacists can and will try to twist the themes and messages of popular media to fit their world view. It's also their method of "tainting" popular media so they can incite twitter users into claiming that "X is associated/popular/resonates with white supremacists"

Right, and Black Panther was neither tainted to progressives or being widely adopted by white supremacists because it's actually kinda hard to make it fit into their worldview. That isn't really the case for Attack on Titan so it's worth examining why that is.

Manu · Mar 1, 2021

Froyo Love said:
absolutely fucking amazed at the people in this thread breaking out the calipers to debate how well ACTUALLY, only x% of these flesh-eating monsters derived exclusively from a Jewish-coded ethnic group have big honkers, so showing this one disgusting hook-nosed abomination in the video is DISINGENUOUS

do you fucking hear yourselves? don't do that shit.

So we can't point out disingenuous arguments unless we have some hidden agenda. Why even bother to make a thread if people aren't allowed to disagree?

Deleted member 52442 · Mar 1, 2021

Froyo Love said:
absolutely fucking amazed at the people in this thread breaking out the calipers to debate how well ACTUALLY, only x% of these flesh-eating monsters derived exclusively from a Jewish-coded ethnic group have big honkers, so showing this one disgusting hook-nosed abomination in the video is DISINGENUOUS

do you fucking hear yourselves? don't do that shit.

Are you saying that none of the titans should have had big noses? Or that the eldians shouldn't have had to wear arm bands which drew comparisons to Nazi Germany's treatment of Jewish people? Most of us are agreeing with the latter.

JinnAxel · Mar 1, 2021

tobascodagama said:
The "good" coup in this show was overthrowing a shadowy cabal that mind-controlled the populace into believing a false version of history. Which is literally what modern anti-semites claim is happening in our world?

Maybe Isayama is unfamiliar with that particular kind of conspiracy theory and how it resonates with his work, but at some point you have to say, "Hey, this guy is playing with fire, and I don't think he understands the extent to which he is doing so".

That's also a fairly popular trope in fiction to be fair. Isayama is however guilty of muddying a lot of allegories to real world history. But I think it's very hard to argue that the work promotes fascist and nationalistic views when looking at everything in context.

Slatsunus · Mar 1, 2021

Froyo Love said:
absolutely fucking amazed at the people in this thread breaking out the calipers to debate how well ACTUALLY, only x% of these flesh-eating monsters derived exclusively from a Jewish-coded ethnic group have big honkers, so showing this one disgusting hook-nosed abomination in the video is DISINGENUOUS

do you fucking hear yourselves? don't do that shit.

Are you Jewish? Kindly don't speak for them if not. My GF actually is and finds the framing in the video far more offensive then the actual series. "We searched through the entire series and found like 5 outta hundreds ergo this is anti Semitic, is a surface level take at best.

Also the idea that only Jews can have big noses which is what your post is implying is uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh sketch as shit my guy.

Contramann · Mar 1, 2021

Oddish1 said:
You absolutely can write works that white supremacists can't or won't read into. It's part of the reason why that freak out at things like the She-Ra reboot or Steven Universe or Black Panther or whatever. It is so blatantly against their own worldview that they refuse to engage with it in the first place.

it's funny you say that but, Alt-Right people seem to actually enjoy Steven Universe (can't speak on the other stuff(, so no they can indeed re-write or just ignore parts of media they like to fit their worldview.

electroshockwave said:
Actually they were using Black Panther to argue that ethnostates are a good thing.

Oh right, I actually forgot about this too. That was something they were pushing after Black Panther was a hit.

Azzanadra · Mar 1, 2021

Kegels said:
It's a shame this video wasn't exactly impartial but most people agree Isayama was careless with imagery

I don't think its just the imagery. I like Attack on Titan. I don't think its supporting fascism but it does fall in line with the Japan political status-quo, which is to say it is broadly supportive/accepting of the neoconservative elements of the right-wing Liberal Democratic party and the policies and ideologies of (former) Prime Minister Shinzo Abe. Though this is hardly unique to Isayama in the Japanese media landscape.

Like I said I don't think it makes it problematic enough to "cancel", I certainly enjoy the show. But I also hope no one is is having their worldviews informed by AOT. Attack on Titan is dumb, fun shonen, and that's all it needs to be.

Trisc · Mar 1, 2021

Azzanadra said:
I don't think its just the imagery. I like Attack on Titan. I don't think its supporting fascism but it does fall in line with the Japan political status-quo, which is to say it is broadly supportive/accepting of the neoconservative elements of the right-wing Liberal Democratic party and the policies and ideologies of (former) Prime Minister Shinzo Abe. Though this is hardly unique to Isayama in the Japanese media landscape.

Like I said I don't think it makes it problematic enough to "cancel", I certainly enjoy the show. But I also hope no one is is having their worldviews informed by AOT. Attack on Titan is dumb, fun shonen, and that's all it needs to be.

I think it's disingenuous to say it's just a "dumb, fun shonen" when it's clearly trying to be more while appropriating extremely harmful imagery, seemingly without understanding the incredible delicacy with which that subject matter should be handled. It's a series that so clearly wants to be seen as profound, dealing with incredibly dark themes of depression, imperialism, suicide, systemic racial oppression, and the extremely volatile topic of ethnic cleansing. If it's going to discuss those themes and use imagery so often intrinsically associated with those subjects, such as colonization, the Nazi war machine, and the holocaust, then it owes it to its readers to be more than just a "dumb, fun shonen".

I'm not sure if Isayama is really writing this series with malicious intent towards Semitic peoples, or if he's just a writer incapable of handling the material he chose to base his entire series around with tact. Death of the Author is absolutely applicable in this situation, though; neglect is often worse than malice. When the series is over (which it will be in less than two months), I wonder if we'll have a clearer picture.

Azzanadra · Mar 1, 2021

Trisc said:
I think it's disingenuous to say it's just a "dumb, fun shonen" when it's clearly trying to be more while appropriating extremely harmful imagery, seemingly without understanding the incredible delicacy with which that subject matter should be handled. It's a series that so clearly wants to be seen as profound, dealing with incredibly dark themes of depression, imperialism, suicide, systemic racial oppression, and the extremely volatile topic of ethnic cleansing. If it's going to discuss those themes and use imagery so often intrinsically associated with those subjects, such as colonization, the Nazi war machine, and the holocaust, then it owes it to its readers to be more than just a "dumb, fun shonen".

I'm not sure if Isayama is really writing this series with malicious intent towards Semitic peoples, or if he's just a writer incapable of handling the material he chose to base his entire series around with tact. Death of the Author is absolutely applicable in this situation, though; neglect is often worse than malice. When the series is over (which it will be in less than two months), I wonder if we'll have a clearer picture.

You're right. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to diminish the harmful tropes and imagery the show/manga employs. My point was that the reverence towards AOT from the fans has always been a bit weird, they talk about it as if it is a profound political treatise or something.

I guess I dismissed the show's themes too easily because of how inherently ridiculous AOT really is, and just treated it as an action anime. But as you said, AOT does want to be seen as more than your typical action anime, and that demands scrutiny. Just because I recognized AOT's neoconservative's bent and (perhaps too easily) dismissed it does not mean others hold the same view. After all, there is a reason that fascists gravitate towards the show (even though I don't think its promoting fascism), and I think that should be seriously examined.

Froyo Love · Mar 1, 2021

Manu said:
So we can't point out disingenuous arguments unless we have some hidden agenda. Why even bother to make a thread if people aren't allowed to disagree?

There's plenty of stuff in the video to disagree about. Intended allegory vs. death of the author, how much textual anti-fascist elements dominate over background elements conforming to anti-semitic tropes, different cultural frames of reference about Holocaust imagery.

None of that requires dismissing a blood libel grotesque because "Well, not every one of them has a big nose." That shit would not fly with any other ethnic stereotype.

Kegels said:
Are you saying that none of the titans should have had big noses? Or that the eldians shouldn't have had to wear arm bands which drew comparisons to Nazi Germany's treatment of Jewish people? Most of us are agreeing with the latter.

I think this is kind of reductive. As the video points out, there are multiple elements to the Jewish coding - a racial group, sometimes shadowy infiltrators and manipulators of society, with supernatural powers related to eating human flesh/blood, segregated and imprisoned for the protection of the world. The issue doesn't go away just because you take the arm bands off, it's a confluence of ideas beyond a single revealing choice of imagery.

If you're going down a storytelling path that uses racist mythology, you have a responsibility to be extremely careful about your choices and imagery. It's reprehensible not to be. Imagine an AoT-esque story about a fantasy expy of the antebellum South, that proposed that enslaved Africans were actually supernaturally powerful killers who had to be contained for the good of the world. That shit would rightfully be decried for entertaining a repulsively racist worldview.

Now imagine someone defending it because "Come on now, less than 10% of the crypto-Black people are depicted with puffy lips! That's not racist!" That would be fucking disgusting, and that's how I feel about these comments. They're deflections because people don't want to engage with the work they like being anti-semitic, so instead there's these arguments about how many of the Jewish-coded monsters are also ugly Jewish caricatures.

Slatsunus said:
Are you Jewish? Kindly don't speak for them if not. My GF actually is and finds the framing in the video far more offensive then the actual series. "We searched through the entire series and found like 5 outta hundreds ergo this is anti Semitic, is a surface level take at best.

Also the idea that only Jews can have big noses which is what your post is implying is uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh sketch as shit my guy.

Fuck off. Yes I'm Jewish you asshole. Don't use your girlfriend's Jewishness as a prop ever again. How about you "search through" the entire video you didn't watch, if you think that one monster's nose is what the Jewish coding in AoT consists of?

Manu · Mar 1, 2021

Froyo Love said:
There's plenty of stuff in the video to disagree about. Intended allegory vs. death of the author, how much textual anti-fascist elements dominate over background elements conforming to anti-semitic tropes, different cultural frames of reference about Holocaust imagery.

None of that requires dismissing a blood libel grotesque because "Well, not every one of them has a big nose." That shit would not fly with any other ethnic stereotype.

But that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying there's hundreds of titans through the series with exaggerated features. Big eyes, big noses, big mouths, wildly different features and sizes. Handpicking a few of them with big noses and saying "see? the mangaka is CLEARLY basing his designs on Jewish caricatures" seems like a bit of a stretch to me. There's a reason most articles/videos about it always pick the same one or two examples after all these years.

You're free to disagree of course.

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