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Terror-Billy

Chicken Chaser
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,460
If you want spoilers, here you go. Keep in mind some of it may be off because I'm doing it from memory. The movie was pretty good, definitely worth seeing, and definitely not the incel rallying cry people are concerned about I think. I do get how some people would have issues with how the Joker is portrayed, and it's not totally nuanced at some points, but it's ultimately probably one of the better comic movies out there.

- the movie starts out with Arthur being a sidewalk clown, twirling a store close out sign. Some teens steal the sign, and as he chases them down an alley they gang up on him and beat him up.
- He goes to his therapist and they have a session where he asks for an increase in dosage of his psych medication. We find out here that he's already on 7 kinds of medication.
- on the bus in his way home, he is being playful with a little boy and the boys mother tells him to stop. He starts laughing, and this is where we find out that he has a condition that causes uncontrollable laughter.
- in the elevator in his apartment he meets Zazie Beetz, his neighbour, and her daughter. She complains about the apartment, and does the gun hand motion to her head. Arthur laughs and does the same back to her.
- at home we learn that Arthur lives with him mom, and takes care of her (feeds her, bathes her, etc). She's not bed ridden, but obviously she needs taking care of.
- the next day, Arthur stalks Zazie as she goes about her day. That night she comes to the door and asks if he's been stalking her. He says yes, and asks her to see him perform stand up. She accepts.
- the next day at work, Arthur's co worker hands him a gun in a paper bag so he can protect himself.
- Arthur seems his therapist and she tells him that the government has cut funding and this is the last time they will see each other.
- Arthur does stand up, which mainly consists of him laughing to himself on stage, and when he finally tells some jokes it seems to go well. Zazie and Arthur go on a date and have a good time,
- while entertaining kids at a hospital, the gun falls out of his pocket, and he gets fired by the clown company. The guy that game him the gun sells him out and says that Arthur tried to buy a gun from him.
- on the way home from being fired, Arthur is in the subway and 3 Wall Street guys beat him up for laughing. He ends up shooting and killing all three of them. Like most of the violence in the movie this is pretty sudden and not glorified.
- Arthur feels pretty good about this ultimately, and goes back to his apartment knocks in Zazie.s door and they make out as he goes inside.
- Arthur's mother keeps talking about Thomas Wayne, and how she wrote him a letter, and she keeps wondering if he will read the letter. One night Arthur sees the letter she wrote, and it says that Arthur is Thomas Wayne's child, and she asks him to give Arthur a job. Arthur is pissed about this and leaves the house.
- Arthur goes to Wayne Manor and sees a young Bruce. He performs some magic tricks for him, and Alfred comes out and asks him what he's doing. Arthur says that he knows all about the affair Arthur and his mother had, and Alfred says that his mother is mentally ill and none of that ever happened.
- Arthur goes him to find paramedics taking his mother away in a stretcher. At the hospital who detectives try to talk to Arthur, and they tell him they were at the house walking to his mother when she had a stroke. Arthur doesn't answer any questions and goes back to his mother in the hospital. Zazie and Arthur watch over his mother as she's in a coma.
- while in the hospital, Robert DeNiro's talk show plays a clip of Arthur doing stand up, and essentially mocks him,
- While all of this is going on, the public is taking to this clown character who presumable killed the three Wall Street people. There are protests as Thomas Wayne announces his intention to run for mayor. Arthur goes to the protest, and sneaks into a theatre where a Charlie Chaplin movie is playing. I went to the bathroom at this point, but somewhere in here is when he meets Thomas Wayne and Thomas Wayne punches him.
- when I got back from the bathroom, Arthur was in a hospital where he was talking to a keeper of records. He talks to the clerk who pulls his mothers records, but won't give him much info until his mother signs a release. He wrestlers the documents out of the sleeks hands and runs.
- it turns out that his mother has had a litany of mental health issues, and that he was adopted, and chained to a radiator by one of her many boyfriends, and suffered massive head trauma (which likely caused the spontaneous laughter). So basically, he's not Thomas Wayne's son and his mom was delusional.
- Arthur goes back to the hospital and smothers his mother with a pillow.
- Arthur goes home and walks into Zazie's apartment. Zazie comes out of the bedroom, and is scared because she doesn't know Arthur other than as her neighbour she met once. Arthur imagined their whole relationship.
- Arthur gets a call from DeNiro's show, and his clip was so popular they want him to be a guest. (This may have happened earlier, I can't quite remember)
- A big clown protest is scheduled for the night of Arthur's talk show appearance.
- Arthur is putting in clown make up, when he gets a knock on the door. It's his two buddies from the clown business, one of which was the one who gave him the gun. Arthur ends up murdering him with scissors, and lets the other guy go.
- Arthur goes on DeNiros show, and asks to be introduced as the Joker, based in what DeNiro called him when he showed the stand up clip. Talks about how he has been marginalized (I'm really simplifying this) and admits that he's the one who shot those three Wall Street guys in the subway. He ends up asking DeNiro if he wants to hear a joke and shoots him in the head on live tv. Again, violence was not glorified at all. It was shot as a static shot from far away.
- the police end up arresting Arthur and on their way to the police station, an ambulance hits the police car, and some clowns get out and pull joker from the car.
- there are riots going on, and Thomas Wayne and family duck into an alley. They get shot by one of the clown rioters. This was my least favourite part of the movie, but I get why it's there. It's the same thing we'We seen in three movies so far.
- joker wakes up after on the good of the police car as a crowd of people in clown makeup surround him and cheer.
- cut to Arthur in a white room talking to a therapist. She asks him what he's laughing about, and he says a joke that she wouldn't understand.
- next shot is a hospital hallway, and Arthur is walking down it with bloody feet.
The end.
So

- joker wakes up after on the good of the police car as a crowd of people in clown makeup surround him and cheer.

It's the fucking ending to Evangelion, huh.
 

Shy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
18,520
So

- joker wakes up after on the good of the police car as a crowd of people in clown makeup surround him and cheer.

It's the fucking ending to Evangelion, huh.

ZT6VpEb.gif
 

Deleted member 2802

Community Resetter
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
33,729
If you want spoilers, here you go. Keep in mind some of it may be off because I'm doing it from memory. The movie was pretty good, definitely worth seeing, and definitely not the incel rallying cry people are concerned about I think. I do get how some people would have issues with how the Joker is portrayed, and it's not totally nuanced at some points, but it's ultimately probably one of the better comic movies out there.
I assume you saw this at TIFF? What was the crowd reaction like?

Do you think it's possible to have a good experience watching this with a regular weekend audience?
 

Canadiancrowe

Member
Nov 4, 2017
199
I am looking forward to Phoenix's performance, but man that story is really uninspired.

Phoenix really elevates the whole thing. Its
I assume you saw this at TIFF? What was the crowd reaction like?

Do you think it's possible to have a good experience watching this with a regular weekend audience?

Yep, saw it at TIFF. Crowd reaction was good, a lot of comic book fans. some people left disappointed I'm sure. Lots of people trying to figure out if it will tie into the next Batman movie.

I imagine the average movie going experience will be fine, but there are lots of silent moments and moments for inappropriate laughter.
 

Canadiancrowe

Member
Nov 4, 2017
199
That plot really doesn't look that good huh

Keep in mind I did a horrible job summarizing it. There is some nuance in the movie, and the cliche parts didn't elicit any eye rolling from me. For context, I don't get invested in the quality of comic book movies (although I do watch all of them) so I just went in expecting an interesting movie.
 

Deleted member 42105

User requested account closure
Banned
Apr 13, 2018
7,994
The whole imaginative aspect just makes it even worse. Why even include it?

Turning Joker into a power fantasy. A symbol for Arthur's hatred for society. Depriving him of even being a character.

Come on dude
 

Window

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,287
The plot description does not sound very good especially the
"it was all a dream" bit - no doubt inspired by fan theories on Taxi Driver's ending
. On the other hand it doesn't seem exactly very 'dangerous' or painting Joker in a positive light so people can calm down a bit (though the depiction of mental illness aspect of it still sounds worrying).
 

Brinbe

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
58,786
Terana
thanks for the info, will still watch obviously and the shocking leaked bits make sense now in proper context.
 

Cuburger

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,975
I saw some reviewer that went to TIFF say that the film wasn't an incel fantasy because Arthur isn't rejected by Zazie's character but that his affection is (kinda) reciprocated (I'm paraphrasing), but these parts:
- the next day, Arthur stalks Zazie as she goes about her day. That night she comes to the door and asks if he's been stalking her. He says yes, and asks her to see him perform stand up. She accepts.
...
- Arthur goes home and walks into Zazie's apartment. Zazie comes out of the bedroom, and is scared because she doesn't know Arthur other than as her neighbour she met once. Arthur imagined their whole relationship.
totally sounds like incel behavior and like the person wasn't paying attention to the movie. That some pretty huge context of their relationship as presented in the movie to ignore.
 

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,254
Isn't it kinda weird how the summaries never sound very good? Is this a movie that would totally suck if it weren't for the actors in it putting in way more effort than the script deserves?
 

Window

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,287
Probably why it has only several 1 star revie... oh...
That's irrelevant to how the plot description reads. It may work better on screen (which is where you can make a reference to reviews) but that synopsis alone doesn't excite me. And to be honest I have little interest in what the critical consensus is. I'm more interested to know what reviewers who share similar tastes as mine have to say.
 

Capra

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,679
The whole
it's all in his head
aspect sounds really shoehorned in and lame. Like they wanted the movie to seem deeper than it actually is.
 
Oct 29, 2017
4,293
Keep in mind I did a horrible job summarizing it. There is some nuance in the movie, and the cliche parts didn't elicit any eye rolling from me. For context, I don't get invested in the quality of comic book movies (although I do watch all of them) so I just went in expecting an interesting movie.
Fair enough, it is different seeing it in execution.
 

Capra

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,679
Gotta be honest here, I feel like after the initial shock factor wears off there's not going to be much there besides Phoenix's acting to appreciate. Even in those clips, the writing is really on the (red) nose and awkward. That synopsis doesn't inspire much confidence either, even if it is better on screen.

I'll be interested to see how the conversation surrounding the film evolves when it comes out and the hype gradually dies down because it feels like both the people celebrating it as the best movie ever which must be protected at all costs and the people worried it'll be a rallying cry for incels are gonna end up forgetting all about it a few months later. The hype built up around this edgy clown movie is insane right now.
 
OP
OP
Cpt-GargameL

Cpt-GargameL

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,024
Gotta be honest here, I feel like after the initial shock factor wears off there's not going to be much there besides Phoenix's acting to appreciate. Even in those clips, the writing is really on the (red) nose and awkward. That synopsis doesn't inspire much confidence either, even if it is better on screen.

I'll be interested to see how the conversation surrounding the film evolves when it comes out and the hype gradually dies down because it feels like both the people celebrating it as the best movie ever which must be protected at all costs and the people worried it'll be a rallying cry for incels are gonna end up forgetting all about it a few months later. The hype built up around this edgy clown movie is insane right now.
I don't think it needs to be protected but what I feel about this whole thing is that moving forward, because of the United States violence/gun problem, everything will be reviewed with that in mind and that goes for all sorts of media. Instead of reviewing the movie for what it is we're now going to see reviews be affected if it caters to xyz crowd and that's unfortunate and annoying.
 

Capra

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,679
I don't think it needs to be protected but what I feel about this whole thing is that moving forward, because of the United States violence/gun problem, everything will be reviewed with that in mind and that goes for all sorts of media. Instead of reviewing the movie for what it is we're now going to see reviews be affected if it caters to xyz crowd and that's unfortunate and annoying.

That part of the conversation for this film is down to the specificity of it though. It's a movie about a straight white dude with mental health issues killing a bunch of people and inspiring a populist movement against the society that has wronged him. In concept it comes pretty close to portraying an idealized version of the motives behind actual shootings and yeah, it's down to Americans to deal with the actual causes behind gun violence but it's also like, dude read the room.

Honestly? I feel like those reviewers are doing the movie a service by boosting the conversation surrounding it and hyping it up as something "dangerous" when if that synopsis is to be believed, it's pretty fucking toothless. The conversation is going to be the most interesting thing about the movie aside from the quality of Phoenix's performance.

I mean come on. Would anyone here be defending this film as aggressively as they have been against the hand-wringing if it hadn't been hyped up so much? Did people give a shit about defending The Hunt after it seemed like Trump got it cancelled?
 
OP
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Cpt-GargameL

Cpt-GargameL

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,024
It's not really connected to that [DC Movie] Universe. And it was really intentionally not. I mean the original idea when I went to [Warner Bros.] with the idea was not just about one movie, but about a label - sort of a side label to DC, where you can do these kind of character study, low-rent, low-budget movies, where you get a filmmaker to come in and do some deep dive into a character. So it was never meant to connect, so I don't see it connecting to anything in the future. I think this is just this movie, you know?

 

AWizardDidIt

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,461
I'm interested to see more discussion on the movie... probably more than im excited to see the movie itself. Good or bad, itll be fun to talk about and analyze.

Guessing it'll settle into the low 70s on RT and metacritic.
 
Sep 17, 2018
533
"I literally described to Joaquin at one point in those three months as like, 'Look at this as a way to sneak a real movie in the studio system under the guise of a comic book film'
He came off as an asshole, but I've watched a few Joker interviews and I'm pretty sure he meant to say that at one point in those three months it took to get Phoenix on board ("He was not keen on jumping into costume in any comic-book movie"), the only way to convince him was to describe the film as a one-off character study. Phoenix has turned down roles for DC, Marvel and Star Wars in part because of his reluctance to commit to franchise movies ("There were too many requirements that went against my instincts for character. [...] I'm just trying to find what works for me. I don't want to commit to something and not fulfil those obligations. I enjoy watching those movies.").
 

Armadilo

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,877
I'm interested to see more discussion on the movie... probably more than im excited to see the movie itself. Good or bad, itll be fun to talk about and analyze.

Guessing it'll settle into the low 70s on RT and metacritic.
Uhh didn't the reviews already come out and won best film at a festival that only awards prestigious ones
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
He came off as an asshole, but I've watched a few Joker interviews and I'm pretty sure he meant to say that at one point in those three months it took to get Phoenix on board ("He was not keen on jumping into costume in any comic-book movie"), the only way to convince him was to describe the film as a one-off character study. Phoenix has turned down roles for DC, Marvel and Star Wars in part because of his reluctance to commit to franchise movies ("There were too many requirements that went against my instincts for character. [...] I'm just trying to find what works for me. I don't want to commit to something and not fulfil those obligations. I enjoy watching those movies.").

Anyone know what those requirements are?
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
Not sure how I feel about.
The "maybe it was all a dream" stuff but I'll see how it plays out in the actual film.

At least the vagueness keeps the "multiple choice past" aspect in tact. Though in that case I wonder what the point of the Wayne's getting shot is other then people to go "ohhhhhh."
 

CelestialAtom

Mambo Number PS5
Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,065
Got my tickets to see it in RPX (Since our IMAX is under construction) and beyond excited to see this, as Joker is definitely my most anticipated film this year.
 

Jeremy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,639
Variety:

'Joker' Premiere Disinvites Interview Press From Hollywood Red Carpet


Can't take that heat.
 

Aurc

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,890
Thinking about what thread title to use for the regular, non-spoiler OT going up later this week. Any ideas? Considered using the popular "Without the R, it's just a joke" line that made the rounds, but it just seems corny to me. Should it just be this thread's title, but in English? lol
 
OP
OP
Cpt-GargameL

Cpt-GargameL

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,024
Variety:

'Joker' Premiere Disinvites Interview Press From Hollywood Red Carpet


Can't take that heat.
How about a magic trick? I'm going to make the press disappear!

Thinking about what thread title to use for the regular, non-spoiler OT going up later this week. Any ideas? Considered using the popular "Without the R, it's just a joke" line that made the rounds, but it just seems corny to me. Should it just be this thread's title, but in English? lol

That'd be perfect haha though what you suggested first isn't a bad idea either BUT the English version of this one is golden lol
 

Alienous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,612
JOKER |OT| "But doctor" Arthur said, "I do live in a society"

JOKER |OT| Society is corrosive enough

JOKER |OT| Throw him into a big vat of society.
 

Deleted member 42055

User requested account closure
Banned
Apr 12, 2018
11,215
Can't believe we're just 4 days away!

EFmCB5gUYAE9JOA

Yesss I just realized this today. While I am a huge fan of Phoenix, I want to see this ASAP because I knowit will dominate conversation around here for some time (until TROS comes out, Lord help us all).

* Just got a 4pm showing on Thuesday because I am not about to watch this with a packed opening night/weekend house, where i'd expect fuckery of some kind.
 

shaneo632

Weekend Planner
Member
Oct 29, 2017
29,057
Wrexham, Wales
Just came out of the London press screening. Film was great, gonna piss a lot of people off.

Confirmed my fears about people taking the wrong thing away from it though. Lots of uproarious laughter during super sad and fucked up scenes. Fight Club all over again.
 

Ignis

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,757
Thinking about what thread title to use for the regular, non-spoiler OT going up later this week. Any ideas? Considered using the popular "Without the R, it's just a joke" line that made the rounds, but it just seems corny to me. Should it just be this thread's title, but in English? lol
It's gotta be this but in english. Please. Lol.
 

shaneo632

Weekend Planner
Member
Oct 29, 2017
29,057
Wrexham, Wales
Writing my review at the moment, I think the last film to make me feel this much dread was Hereditary. The tone is so depressing (in a good way) and just made me feel like a bag of shit by the end.

Also I thought I saw a cameo from
Justin Theroux on the TV when Arthur is practising his routine at home with the TV playing.
Can anyone confirm?
 
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Cuburger

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,975
Writing my review at the moment, I think the last film to make me feel this much dread was Hereditary. The tone is so depressing (in a good way) and just made me feel like a bag of shit by the end.
I'm interested in why you feel the tone is depressing.

Do you feel like the movie is nihilistic?