Vlodril

Member
Dec 18, 2017
301
Just finished Chapter 22.

The TL;DR - thankfully I'm reading on a Kindle, otherwise I'd probably thrown the goddamn book away.

The even more TL;DR version - fuuuuuuuuck Pormqual and Mallick Rel. Fuck them both.

Jesus, the whole Aren section of the chapter is just heartbreaking and soulshattering. It's pure "if only they had known a minute earlier...", it's the knowing that things could've been completely different and yet they weren't, and it's a horrible feeling deep in your gut that you're essentially powerless to stop an awful fate to pass.

It really reminded me of the sorrow of (an old movie ending spoiler? Based on something that happened very very long ago?)Spartacus' ending, with all the soldiers crucified on Aren Way and Duiker being forced to watch until he, at last, was also crucified. It's just... sad as fuck.

Funny you should say that because i actually did that on book 3. The only time i have ever done it in my life i was so upset i threw the book at the wall. Erikson knows how to plays with my feelings i guess. A good thing i didn't read books at my phone back then i guess.

As far as book 2 goes i still think it's probably the best climax out of all the books i read. Nothing beats the chain of dogs for me. What an amazing story.

Often i wish we could see the books in a series or movie but i don't think there is a way to translate these books to a visual medium and do them justice.
 

Min

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,277
Often i wish we could see the books in a series or movie but i don't think there is a way to translate these books to a visual medium and do them justice.

I think these books would adapt extremely well to film. They read like a screenplays. They're incredibly cinematic with how scenes are set up, focusing on some obscure detail before zooming out to give larger context and character. Each section ends on a cliffhanger, reminiscent of a Sam Esmail show. Of course, it would be incredibly long and the production value would need to be on the level of Jodorowsky's Dune, so it's a pipe dream, but this series would translate extremely easily to film and probably be a bit more comprehensible because of the added visual aid to jargon.
 

Vlodril

Member
Dec 18, 2017
301
I think these books would adapt extremely well to film. They read like a screenplays. They're incredibly cinematic with how scenes are set up, focusing on some obscure detail before zooming out to give larger context and character. Each section ends on a cliffhanger, reminiscent of a Sam Esmail show. Of course, it would be incredibly long and the production value would need to be on the level of Jodorowsky's Dune, so it's a pipe dream, but this series would translate extremely easily to film and probably be a bit more comprehensible because of the added visual aid to jargon.

We are talking about dozens characters each book and the visuals would need to be insane to actually translate the books. Maybe it can be done who knows it would seem hard to me personally.
 

Min

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,277
We are talking about dozens characters each book and the visuals would need to be insane to actually translate the books. Maybe it can be done who knows it would seem hard to me personally.

I mean yeah hence the Jodorowsky's Dune budget conundrum. I don't actually think there are too many characters to adapt to a screen. I think you could easily fit a chapter into an hour long episode for a TV series. It would need to rely heavily on visuals more so than narration which would also be a problem for a western audience. And would probably need to bring back a format of TV that is no longer used, 25 episode seasons... but it reads like a television show to me which is part of why I enjoy it immensely. It's pretty quickly paced and always forwarding the action.
 

Min

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,277
Altazor I think starting in book 3-5, you get more emphasis on the world, some of the overarching mysteries at large and introduces some pretty cool fantasy ideas into what is taking place in the Malazan reality.
 

Ocean Bones

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
4,818
We are talking about dozens characters each book and the visuals would need to be insane to actually translate the books. Maybe it can be done who knows it would seem hard to me personally.

I've always imagined an animated series would be the best way to do the series, but you could honestly cut a lot and still run a great story for movies/television.
 

Min

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,277
I think something that's really confusing is the timeline for events in later books.

There are prequels to GotM that seem to reference things in Memories of Ice. The flooded warren from Deadhouse Gates is not flooded in Midnight Tides, but Feather Witch talks about the hold of the beast being inhabited by the wolves from Memories of Ice at the beginning.
 
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Altazor

Altazor

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Oct 25, 2017
8,594
Chile
It's tough shifting from these characters (a recurring theme with successive books) but unlike in ASOIAF where I'd get seriously bored for the majority of a book because of the characters they followed, I never had that with this series.

It might be weird going to new perspectives but Erikson both ties the world together well and also makes you care for the new characters on their own merits.

That said, we are going back to familiar, awesome characters in Memories of Ice so that's good stuff too.

Yeah its a tough old read not helped by jumping to a new continent and a bunch of different characters. Making it past the horrific abuses suffered by a 13 year old girl was incredibly difficult and if not for the occasional reference back to GotM characters in those early couple of hundred pages could easily have seen me put it down. That it ended up becoming one of my favourites of any book that I've read came as a surprise following that beginning but with the Chain of Dogs storyline Erikson really pulled it off.

That Spanish language cover though - oof! I don't recommend looking at any other covers in the series if you do decide to continue Altazor.

Funny you should say that because i actually did that on book 3. The only time i have ever done it in my life i was so upset i threw the book at the wall. Erikson knows how to plays with my feelings i guess. A good thing i didn't read books at my phone back then i guess.

As far as book 2 goes i still think it's probably the best climax out of all the books i read. Nothing beats the chain of dogs for me. What an amazing story.

Often i wish we could see the books in a series or movie but i don't think there is a way to translate these books to a visual medium and do them justice.

Altazor I think starting in book 3-5, you get more emphasis on the world, some of the overarching mysteries at large and introduces some pretty cool fantasy ideas into what is taking place in the Malazan reality.

thank you all very much for replying and for this convevrsation!

I agree that the shift in continents and characters (plus, you know, the subject matter itself) made the early parts of the book difficult, but I think I powered through because Erikson's improvement in writing made it, if not bearable, at least gripping enough to make me feel curious about what would happen next.

As for the Chain of Dogs storyline: absolutely. He pulled it off, the madman, with all the heartbreak and exhaustion it'd mean (from how self-absorbed, obstructive and unlikeable the nobles would be in that situation... srsly, fuck Nethpara and Pullyk too to the joys of finding drinkable water by accident, or the small moments of levity between the absolute doom and gloom).

Minishdriveby that's great, I hope I can start MoI later today or tomorrow! Let's see what the next Malazan tale of the Book of the Fallen has for me... more heartbreak I assume.

As for the possibility of adapting MBOTF... I think it *could* be done but they'd need 13 episodes per season at minimum, scale down the visuals at times (I think GOTM's climax would be at the level of GOT's last couple of seasons... and that's *after* it had become a smash hit and had a budget increment!) and consolidate/shift characters around. I'd venture to say which, but considering I just finished DG and I still have 8 books to finish, I dunno if some of the minor characters in GOTM and DG end up becoming very important in later books, so... I'd just stay quiet in that regard.

I'd shorten Felisin's ordeal though. Definitely. And proooobably some of Fidler/Crokus/Apsalar's voyage in DG, too (the ones with the tribes, before getting rescued by Mappo and Icarium).
 
Memories of Ice (Prologue)
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Altazor

Altazor

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Oct 25, 2017
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So, let's dry the tears from our eyes and dust ourselves off from the sorrow and tragedy of Deadhouse Gates' ending, and move onto Memories of Ice, the third book of the Malazan Book of the Fallen.

Finished the Prologue already. As a good Prologue should, I feel it gives you enough hype and questions to make you wanna read on - you don't know *why* or *what* exactly but you know enough to make sense of some stuff, venture some guesses and feel like you should keep on reading to see whether the answer comes up or not.
And it feels different enough from GOTM and DG's respective prologues - GOTM's had the (difficult) work of introducing you to the entire MBOTF while also being a starting point for that book's narrative - I think it succeeded partly (it really benefits from a reread once you more or less get the hang of what's happening and where; the first time I feel it's mostly a kid having a vague-ish conversation with a soldier while the rest of it is a blur that doesn't make much sense), while DG's felt far more intimate, bleak and violent... which set the tone for most of DG quite well (obviously Felisin's storyline but also the Chain of Dogs, thematically).

This one feels... expansive. Mystic. Like the uncovering of just enough ancient knowledge to make you feel you know more than before, but NOT enough to make you enlightened. It features characters we've already known (Pran Chole comes back! Kallor comes back too! Hey, that's K'rul!) but also others we don''t (the female Bonecaster who turns out to be Tool's sister!, two other Elder Gods I wonder who the Sister of Cold Nights is... and whether we've seen her before and the Jaghut kids I wonder if we know who they are, too) and we finally learn *something* of the Chained God (AFAIK, he was 'summoned' from the edges of *another plane* by people who craved power and it basically took A SHITLOAD of power from different people to chain him, which left a lot of the land in ruins and there's this whole revelation about Kallor that continues from what little he was mentioned in DG (there we learned he was "the High King" and had an empire, now we learn he basically killed/turned to ashes the entire population of his Empire. WHAT? WHY DID HE DO THAT?!).

There's also a couple of questions but I'm sure for at least two of them the answer will be Read And Find Out (and if it is, please just tell me that!):
  • What's the deal with whatever was going on with the Bonecaster, the Jaghut children and the Warren opening: Pran mentions something about an 'exchange', so I guess the kids were going to be trapped in there forevermore in exchange for something/someone being summoned *out* of said Warren and into their world? And, obviously, the Bonecaster didn't know that until Pran told her.
  • Is there any connection between the first part of the prologue and the second? the first one being like 100000 years before the second one, and featuring Pran Chole, the Imass and the Jaghut kids; the second one featuring the Elder Gods dealing with Kallor on an (apparently) completely different continent
  • Could you please explain what was the First Empire? I'm sure GOTM mentioned it but I forgot and I don't want to google it or search it on the wiki because I might spoil myself with stuff from future books. IIRC they were the first *human* empire? But the book also says it was fashioned after the T'lan Imass and I don't know what that means. So, if any of you MBOTF could shed light on it, I'd really appreciate it!
So that's the Prologue and we're into the 'main' part now. I quite liked it, the flavor was different enough to make me curious and there were plenty of evocative passages... yeah, I was hooked.
Thanks for reading!
 
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Flambe

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Oct 25, 2017
1,238
Don't wanna answer the rest without looking where you are but for Kallor

he basically killed/turned to ashes the entire population of his Empire. WHAT? WHY DID HE DO THAT?!).
He knew the 3 were coming to his continent to to slap him down and free his people, basically. So he denied them that to show his control over them was absolute.
 
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Altazor

Altazor

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Oct 25, 2017
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Don't wanna answer the rest without looking where you are but for Kallor

He knew the 3 were coming to his continent to to slap him down and free his people, basically. So he denied them that to show his control over them was absolute.

oh, yeah, that makes sense (in a very deranged but fitting way)

thanks for clarifying 😊
 

Snormy

I'll think about it
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
5,292
Morizora's Forest
So, let's dry the tears from our eyes and dust ourselves off from the sorrow and tragedy of Deadhouse Gates' ending, and move onto Memories of Ice, the third book of the Malazan Book of the Fallen.

Finished the Prologue already. As a good Prologue should, I feel it gives you enough hype and questions to make you wanna read on - you don't know *why* or *what* exactly but you know enough to make sense of some stuff, venture some guesses and feel like you should keep on reading to see whether the answer comes up or not.
And it feels different enough from GOTM and DG's respective prologues - GOTM's had the (difficult) work of introducing you to the entire MBOTF while also being a starting point for that book's narrative - I think it succeeded partly (it really benefits from a reread once you more or less get the hang of what's happening and where; the first time I feel it's mostly a kid having a vague-ish conversation with a soldier while the rest of it is a blur that doesn't make much sense), while DG's felt far more intimate, bleak and violent... which set the tone for most of DG quite well (obviously Felisin's storyline but also the Chain of Dogs, thematically).

This one feels... expansive. Mystic. Like the uncovering of just enough ancient knowledge to make you feel you know more than before, but NOT enough to make you enlightened. It features characters we've already known (Pran Chole comes back! Kallor comes back too! Hey, that's K'rul!) but also others we don''t (the female Bonecaster who turns out to be Tool's sister!, two other Elder Gods I wonder who the Sister of Cold Nights is... and whether we've seen her before and the Jaghut kids I wonder if we know who they are, too) and we finally learn *something* of the Chained God (AFAIK, he was 'summoned' from the edges of *another plane* by people who craved power and it basically took A SHITLOAD of power from different people to chain him, which left a lot of the land in ruins and there's this whole revelation about Kallor that continues from what little he was mentioned in DG (there we learned he was "the High King" and had an empire, now we learn he basically killed/turned to ashes the entire population of his Empire. WHAT? WHY DID HE DO THAT?!).

There's also a couple of questions but I'm sure for at least two of them the answer will be Read And Find Out (and if it is, please just tell me that!):
  • What's the deal with whatever was going on with the Bonecaster, the Jaghut children and the Warren opening: Pran mentions something about an 'exchange', so I guess the kids were going to be trapped in there forevermore in exchange for something/someone being summoned *out* of said Warren and into their world? And, obviously, the Bonecaster didn't know that until Pran told her.
  • Is there any connection between the first part of the prologue and the second? the first one being like 100000 years before the second one, and featuring Pran Chole, the Imass and the Jaghut kids; the second one featuring the Elder Gods dealing with Kallor on an (apparently) completely different continent
  • Could you please explain what was the First Empire? I'm sure GOTM mentioned it but I forgot and I don't want to google it or search it on the wiki because I might spoil myself with stuff from future books. IIRC they were the first *human* empire? But the book also says it was fashioned after the T'lan Imass and I don't know what that means. So, if any of you MBOTF could shed light on it, I'd really appreciate it!
So that's the Prologue and we're into the 'main' part now. I quite liked it, the flavor was different enough to make me curious and there were plenty of evocative passages... yeah, I was hooked.
Thanks for reading!

Kallor is a pretty big character and I believe quite a lot is revealed in this book. Probably best to keep reading.

I don't think the two Jaghut children are referred to again other emphasizing what actually happened to them. The take away here is that Tool's sister is the bonecaster of the clan, she went rogue and didn't do the undead army thing. This brought shame and likely destruction to the rest of her clan. The thing that came out is a creature that you will learn more of later. Basically and ancient dangerous creature that made the Imass feel uneasy.

The Crippled God is starting to come into the picture but is still behind the scenes. You will learn more in the books to come.

You will get more reminders and clues to the identity of the Sister of Cold Nights in this book too I believe.

Edit. To add to one of the comments above about Kallor I'd add this.
It is not just denying the three Elder Gods the ability to free the people but by sacrificing them in a ritual Kallor gained enough power to place a curse each on the those who confronted him. Each person in that scene is likely still trying to circumvent and navigate the curse they received.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
6,960
I am approaching the end of memories. I really don't understand some ways it is resolving


• Why is the Malazan fist assaulting the city with half of the Malazan's army, barely any barbarians, and not even close when it comes to Brood's, Greyswords or Moonspawn? I understand sending bridgeburners to gather intel and sabotage something ahead of the siege, but why send the rest of the army in? For like 30h+ the book is building this clash, and it happens so randomly... Seer had months to prepare, and the rest of Malazan/Brood army was 3-5 days away.
• These warrens becoming the solution and source of all problems. Army too powerful? - Open the warren to decimate them. Army too weak? Open the warren to transport more troops/goods. Character about to die? - Open the warren to escape. Need to infiltrate something? Warren... The book has built this assault on warrens, but when plot needs it, it is still possible to use them... I wish the author didn't use magic/warrens so liberaly.
• All the Cole/Mother action that happens back in the Kapustan.
• A lot of characters are playing the 5head game, where instead of sharing knowledge, they keep it away causing problems. I dislike when miscommunication or "You don't understand" is the crux of problems. Silverfox is by far the worst character compared to the power/attention she has, acting like a little child keeping secrets away from everyone and constantly disappearing/running away. Yes, I reached the point of betrayel.
• This Seer became some kind of cartoon villain. At least I understand the previous books as opposition to Empire, or diety-worship, but this Seer is like some kind of evil dictator starving his own people, massing troops, reptilian army and demon birds... It was interesting when the Seer was mysterious, and the good guys were venturing into the unknown territory.
• The book is good, perhaps a bit too long, but the finale is cratering with rushed Empire charge, Seer being a cartoon villain and magic solving/causing way too many events.
 
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Altazor

Altazor

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Oct 25, 2017
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MoI's Chapter 1 is done!

Not much to say considering mostly every question I have could possibly be answered either in this book or one of the next, so I won't burden you with lots of questions now ;)

I very much enjoyed the introduction of Bauchelain and Korbal Broach - especially since it's not from *their* perspective and the whole buildup to their appearance i is intriguing. I wonder what their deal is...

There was also a big surprise for me: Toc the Younger returns! And apparently some one-eyed beast did something to him? We'll learn the answer to that later, I assume. To be perfectly honest there's a lot of things I could ask in this section because I was feeling kinda lost at first but seeing some maps from the Companion Guide was very useful and illuminating. I still have a minor question however we haven't seen the seguleh before, right? The name kinda rings, might've been mentioned in GOTM? But we hadn't seen a specific individual in the books before this chapter, right? Because Toc's reaction is like "omg, you have Seguleh servants?!" and it's like "...why is that relevant now?" for the reader, lol

And we also learn some interesting, very interesting, tidbits: the place from the prologue, with Pran Chole and Tool's sister and the tower? It's called Morn and it's in the southern part of Genabackis! and we learn that Draconus, the Elder God, forged Dragnipur (which is the sword mentioned in the prologue) and that Anomander killed Draconus with it... and that Draconus had two daughers, Envy and Spite. Nice names, huh?
My reaction to those tidbits of knowledge was pretty much "heeeey... that's nice to know!" I hope I have more of those moments during my read-through :)


Thanks for reading these posts and, of course, thanks for your conversations in this thread! I really appreciate it :)
 

Atrophis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,173
Lots to catch up on since I last checked the thread.

You finally finished! Now you know what Erikson is about with these books. It's such a great if infuriating ending. But don't worry, there's plenty more tragic endings on the way :)

As for MoI, my tip is remember the prologue with Kallor as you read through. It's extremely important for the events of this book.
 
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Altazor

Altazor

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Oct 25, 2017
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Lots to catch up on since I last checked the thread.

You finally finished! Now you know what Erikson is about with these books. It's such a great if infuriating ending. But don't worry, there's plenty more tragic endings on the way :)

As for MoI, my tip is remember the prologue with Kallor as you read through. It's extremely important for the events of this book.

thanks a lot :D

knowig that makes my heart flutter... and sink, for a while. I'm not ready for even more tragedy, dammit :'( (lol)

I'll keep that prologue in mind, for sure. As I said, it seemed intriguing enough to keep my interest picqued so I was sure it was something it was going to pop up again afterwards... I love when prologues sow seeds and then the climax of the book is all about reaping that shit!
 

Atrophis

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Oct 25, 2017
1,173
Don't get me wrong, both prologues directly tie into the events of the book. Just that I forgot the Kallor prologue when I read it so I was completely confused by a characters motivation for doing what they did at a certain point. Not that I think you'll have this problem with you remembering such small details anyway.
 

flook

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,009
Theres fun stuff coming too - not a lot and maybe not in MoI - but its not all doom and gloom!
Although MoI has Itkovian - one of favourite characters.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,960
Finished 3rd- good. Still some points stand-out in either some confusion or unsatisfactory character decisions.
Seer being a manipulated guy was a letdown. It was... a complete throwaway enemy... I suppose the "real" enemy emerges in the form of crippled God with Kallor, but Seer could have been a little bit more. All of his army (reptiles, demon birds, mages, all troops) are like no-name clones. Could have had one or two more interesting characters, capable and surviving, among the Seer's forces.

Started 4th - what a different start. It is such a simple and isolated story, and it is taking like 4-5h already. Feels like a spin-off.
 
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Altazor

Altazor

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Finished Chapter 2!

This... was a dense chapter, wasn't it? And, you know, parts of it felt like in no way they should be among the first chapters of a book, giving me more of a "this totally feels like the opening to the last part of the narrative, building up to the climax" vibe. Of course I am talking about everything with The Chained God, Munug and his 'reward' and Quick Ben. Holy fuck!
Still, it *was* among the first chapters of a book, so it means some even wilder shit is coming later. And... it's book 3 of 10, so I've still got a long way to go.

To be perfectly honest, I enjoyed the hell out of the introduction of Picker and Blend - they seem like a fun duo (and, from what I could gather, Blend being the sarcastic, deadpan snarker to Picker's volatile, foul-mouthed nature), and it's yet another example of how Erikson's prose improved with the years - he's managing to introduce new characters into an already crowded narrative and making them stand out and feel memorable (something I don't think he managed in GOTM, for example, with the Bridgeburners save Whiskeyjack/QB/Kalam). I've liked the first scenes for Picker and Blend, the caravanserai crew, Bauchelain and Korbal - it's all been memorable.

We're also reintroduced to Ganoes Paran after an entire book without him in sight and he's not... well. Oh these Paran siblings, I can only assume Tavore's having either the time of her life or she's being absolutely miserable on the inside - got to be one or the other 😂. Anyway, Ganoes is feeling called by "the darkness" after the whole Hound's blood and Dragnipur thingie near the end of GOTM, he's a man in turmoil and the fact that he's liable to being killed by the Bridgeburner soldiers just because he's nobleborn makes it worse. That, and the situation they're all facing doesn't help at all either: outlaws (though we know that's bullshit) that turned into occupiers that turned into de facto rulers of Darujhistan, plus they're all going to fight the Pannion Domin south of there even though Paran doesn't think it's worth their time. Yeah, that sounds like fun times. At least I think he sounds less and less like "snooty noble kid" and more like a weary soldier... which he pretty much is. I enjoyed the scenes with WJ and his gruffy demeanor, it's like an understated form of gallows humor or something.

Anyway, there's a couple of reveals in this chapter which I'm still not sure if they are the pieces I needed to start to put together the puzzle, or the revelation that there were pieces beyond what I imagined and the puzzle is far larger... yeah, now we know that The Chained God is chained to Burn (Earth) and its corruption is fucking Burn up; that it will be beyond help in "tens of years"; that QB has access to even more than seven warrens (HOLY SHIT); that Paran's inner turmoil is due to a conflict of sorceries (plural) within him and he'll need QB's help which is like... a lot. And we'll keep on learning.

Good stuff, good stuff. Even though I have questions (like "what the hell were those cards that Munug gave the Chained God? What the fuck was Trotts talking about?"), let's keep this train going. We'll get somewhere, anyway!

PS: The whole scene with Munug and TCG was fucking creepy as hell. Creepy and unsettling. Ouch.
 

Flambe

Faster than Light
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Oct 25, 2017
1,238
Good stuff, good stuff. Even though I have questions (like "what the hell were those cards that Munug gave the Chained God? What the fuck was Trotts talking about?"), let's keep this train going. We'll get somewhere, anyway

Mmmm what other cards do we have already in the series..

Also, there are many great Quick Ben moments but you have probably one of my top 2 coming up later in the book.
 
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Altazor

Altazor

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Oct 25, 2017
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Update time! Finished Chapter 3.

In which Erikson decides to finallyiwrite an info dump.

And you know what? I liked it. I thought it was ingenious how he tried to 'solve' the inherent issues info dumps inherently have (slowing down the narrative by shoving info down the reader's throat because "it will be important later") by using the Parley as the thinly-veiled means to deliver such info, because, let's be honest, a Parley is the perfect occasion for that to happen. And when you fill your Parley with individuals who, at the same time, know far more than they let on and have massive blindspots because they can't know *everything*. And why it works is because, smartly, Erikson decides to shift perspectives during the entire meeting, allowing different characters to voice inner thoughts in reaction to the events while still being coy about certain things we're not meant to know yet (thus, we have no Caladan or Kallor or Silverfox inner monologues). The reader feels both satisfied that they learn a ton and anxious to learn the things left unsaid, or only alluded to.

It just works.

I'm not gonna list everything we learned in this chapter (otherwise it'd be pointless repetition) but I'll mention some stuff that interested me: we learn more about the Pannion Domin and the city they're headed next to (Capustan); that the Great Ravens were born of the flesh of the Crippled God once he (it?) fell, something we were vaguely told about (or actually alluded to) during the Prologue, and that despite Crone's idea that Rake doesn't really know about their origins, he actually does and cares enough just to keep them close; that apparently Nightchill is (was?) the Sister of Cold Nights, which totally makes sense considering their names (duh) but... was Nightchill an incarnation of the Sister? The Sister herself taking mortal form? Because we 'see' her at the prologue, thousands of years before the main action taking place... anyway, maybe it's all RAFO. And we also learn that the ritual the T'lan Imass undertook had something to do with binding themselves to the Tellann Warren (the "Tellann" Imass --> T'lan Imass 🤔) *and* that Silverfox is meant to lead them. All of them. Or at least the ones who are able to go to the Gathering.

That was a lot. And even apart from that, I enjoyed the little character moments, like WJ and Korlat's weird "flirting", or the Mhybe's conflicting feelings on her motherhood and her 'daughter', or how similar Dujek and Caladan are, or WJ bitchslapping Kallor.

And we still have plenty of thing unknown to us, like: where the fuck is Bellurdan? And who the fuck is Artanthos?

Oh yes. Plenty more to come.

Thanks for reading!
 

Atrophis

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Oct 25, 2017
1,173
They're just the same person. Kallor was also in that prologue set thousands of years ago…
 
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Altazor

Altazor

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They're just the same person. Kallor was also in that prologue set thousands of years ago…

yeah, it's not something too much "out there" for the series, it's just that... I dunno, maybe i thought the Kallor thing was built up a bit better? Like, you have its appearance in GOTM that signals he's more than "just" Brood's second in command, then Kalam's trek in the imperial warren in DG reveals a bit more and then MoI's prologue goes and shows you. In this case feels more like "hey, remember this character from GOTM we mentioned a couple of times? And you thought she was 'just' a powerful Mage for the Malazan Empire? Well, she was actually an Elder God!" and it's like "oh... oh, ok. Damn, I didn't expect that" from me.
 
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Altazor

Altazor

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Chile
Update time! Now finished Chapter 4.

In which a man decides to work lest grief consumes him, Quick Ben asks a question and gets some answers, a brother knows what happened to his two sisters, a squad steals back a table, two lovers are reunited and the Deck of Dragons is discussed.

Man, this one started so... breezy, for the lack of a better word, and then it became a lot. At the start we have Buke's introductory scene (how/when did Erikson became so good at these?) and the discussion around it, the dynamics between the characters was ace (lighthearted with more than a hint of genuine worry for Buke) and then we pivot to the discussion about Korbal Broach and the apparent revelation that he was behind a series of grisly murders in Darujhistan. Oh shit.

Then it's time for the heavy stuff... and how! In Pale, Quick Ben goes to visit a witch (who has access to the Warren of Tennes) to ask her questions. He gets mostly deflections until he insists with asking why does Burn sleep? and gets told "she sleeps to dream". Which can have some ugly consequences knowing that she's being poisoned/corrupted by TCG and her dreams can get... uglier. He wants to help and he gives the Witch one of those magical pebbles for... future use, we assume. Chekhov's pebble.

And after that is mostly *very* heavy stuff, including Ganoes finding out what happened to Tavore and Felisin (which makes his line "I'm sure Tavore will take care of Felisin" from only moments earlier VERY darkly funny) and that he's gotta meet Silverfox. Ganoes isn't in a good place right now, mentally speaking and it shows - it's *too much* for him. He's becoming cynical of his own abilities and usefulness, his own place in the world, the whole idea of the malazan soldiers becoming rulers and basically every shit that's happening to him right now. "Hey, my family's in complete ruins? Fuck it, blame it on me! I fucked up and started everything that led to this so blame it on me, IDGAF at this point". We do learn some interesting tidbits in this whole section (including that the malazan soldiers aren't 'trained' to become rulers of places they conquest, they just remain in place until malazan bureaucrats arrive and take over, plus controlling the black market through the Claw; or Ganoes telling WJ about 'what happened' when Rake killed the Hounds of Shadow and he got into Dragnipur, and WJ telling him to not mention it to Rake because essentially nobody had escaped Dragnipur ever before; or WJ telling Ganoes that Silverfox had given him a new name in Rhivi, "Jen'isand Rul", the Wanderer within the Sword) but, to be honest, we're all expecting the conversation between Ganoes and Silverfox that is gonna happen.

Before that, however, we get a glimpse of Bridgeburners trying to steal back THE TABLE that was already stolen by the Mott Irregulars. They want THE TABLE so they can run their Deck of Dragons scam once again. Shenanigans ensue. It backfires (lmao) and they realize there's something in the underside of THE TABLE, an image of a figure with a dog's head on its chest. It's a new Card in the Deck, unaligned. And they can't get it out because of magical wards placed upon it, so the least they could do is copy it/make a replica. This section is funny and its levity is needed between the 'heavier' sections of the chapter, but it also serves to introduce something we'll come back during Ganoes and Silverfox talk...

And, about that talk - wow! It's obviously difficult for Ganoes considering his feelings for Tattersail but he also knows Silverfox isn't *quite* Tattersail (or Nightchill). It's also difficult for us because holy shit we learn some *stuff* now. So... apparently the DoD and the Azath Houses are connected somehow (the "Houses" of the Deck being related to the Houses of the Azath); the nomenclature "House" derived from "Hold" (hence, the ancient version of the DoD that Felisin & co. found in that abandoned city in Raraku) and that, in times of the Elder Races, they basically meant the exact same thing; that "Finnest" is T'lan Imass for "Hold of Ice" and "Tremorlor" is Trellish for "House of Life"; we see Ganoes finally learn that Shadowthrone and Cotillion are (were) Kellanved and Dancer; Silverfox thinks that each Azath House has a gate to *every* Warren and that you get to choose inside; she also believes the Unaligned Cards of the DoD are either failed aspects or 'random forces' that need to balance the imposition of order the Deck and the Houses represent, and (even more importantly) that after his experience, Ganoes himself has become a new Unaligned *and* the Master of the Deck; Ganoes remembers the whole Wagon with Chains stuff inside Dragnipur (hence believing the gate under the wagon goes to the Warren of Darkness and the sword taking up souls is to seal that entrance) and he also dreams of "a child within a wound" (something from the prologue, ay!)... Silverfox tells him he shouldn't *from* it, but *towards* it.
Oh, that was a lot. Wasn't it?

But Ganoes, as I said previously, isn't in a good place. And he thinks he'll fail everybody anyway.

Oh, and Silverfox also said that Ganoes shouldn't fear the T'lan Imass, they're gonna need them when they face the "horrors" inside the Pannion Domin. Nothing ominous about that, nooooo sir.

Thanks for reading this wall of text - it's only C4 but I'm quite enjoying this so far. Might be an 'easier' book to start than DG.
 

flook

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Oct 28, 2017
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Regarding Buke's introductory scene I always enjoy reading Erikson breathe life into any character he introduces. With Buke it was a backstory which although brief told you everything you need to know about him as a person and his motivations. But Erikson also does the same thing with incidental characters who are around for page and a half or less even. You come away thinking I've read entire novels where I know less about the motivations and emotions of the protagonist than I do about this throwaway character we passed on the road. I think it's part of way I love this series so much.
 

Snormy

I'll think about it
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And we still have plenty of thing unknown to us, like: where the fuck is Bellurdan? And who the fuck is Artanthos?

Read and find out for both of these and most of the other stuff really. The first one being the more complicated.

I really love how a lot of the details coming from your posts connects the dots I recall in later books. A lot of the stuff is very much RAFO. You're not meant to understand it all and you shouldn't fear not knowing everything going forward. The latter was part of why I struggled to pick up the series at first.
 
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Altazor

Altazor

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Oct 25, 2017
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Chile
Update time! Finally read Chapter 5.

In which we learn that a Lady used to travel with famous companions; what the etchings in the Seguleh mask mean; that a certain Son of Darkness once visited the Seguleh; we see what a Lady can do when she's angry; we learn that a certain Captain is being pulled into Ascendency yet resists; we see a delegation arrive with familiar faces and one of them has a bold idea; we are told the Obelisk Card from the DoD is active for the first time in years and the Assassin of High House Shadow has a new face; a tense meeting about what to do with a certain child is broken up suddenly; the Wanderer wanders within a House of the Azath and a Tyrant has become a prisoner and guardian; we see two empty Thrones inside a hut and a sleeping Goddess with a festering wound that grows larger; a mother defies the expectations of motherhood and breaks down; old colleagues discuss a grim fate and hard choices; the High King falls (literally) and a mage investigates without success (for now).

Boy, that was a doozy, wasn't it? IIRC it might be the longest chapter so far in the entire saga. It's *a lot*. We learn so many things, it's so packed with details I'm once again surprised this is an early chapter of Book 3 of 10 - it really, really feels like it could easily fit into the 'middle section' of the entire narrative, before the revelations start coming fast and, obviously, before it reaches the climax.
Still, it's early days and we've got a lot to build up before it all goes down. Patience.

A detail about this chapter I really liked was this sort of... poetic structure it had, so to speak. Like the George Lucas meme ("it's like poetry, it rhymes"), there's some elements expressed early on that are given a new dimension of sorts by the end of the chapter: like the fact that Anomander Rake, Caladan Brood and Lady Envy used to travel together and that Brood disappeared for a looong while then reappeared with Burn's Hammer which comes up again near the end of the chapter, when we learn that Burn's hammer is more than 'just that', the entire power of Burn is contained within it and it can be used to break the chains of TCG, with disastrous consequences for the living peoples of the world; Kruppe used as comedic relief and to subtly slide important stuff into the narrative (like the idea of using the Trygalle Guild, which we saw in DG, or just how 'convenient' was his interruption of the WJ/Rake/Brood/Kallor standoff regarding Silverfox, giving just enough time for other players to appear in the scene), stuff like that.
But I guess the personal highlights of the chapters were Paran's surprise visit into Finnest House and its meeting with Raest - the former Jaghut Tyrant turned into a prisoner, a guardian and a guide of sorts. The change in demeanor from Raest is striking, but I fucking loved how acerbic his conversation with Paran was. Like hooooly shit, the sarcasm and cattyness meter was off the charts there; and also how emotional Paran was after witnessing Burn sleeping and TCG/Wound in her, plus the realization of what's with Brood's hammer. Also: Rallick and Vorcan! Damn! Wonder if we'll see what's with them later and, surprisingly, the Mhybe running away, breaking down and declaring how fucking unfair everything is and that her own daughter has taken her life (metaphorically and, well, literally) from her and that she hates her for that. That was some very heavy stuff that exceeds the scope of the narrative: the idea of "perfect motherhood", that all mothers must love their children no matter what... and, on the other hand, the very real feeling of plenty of mothers that their children have robbed them of their lives, that their own designs for life were forever changed by motherhood and that it stings, it hurts knowing what could've been and will never be. It's as I said, a heavy subject, and I love how... human, for the lack of a better word, this whole section feels. It is, at the end of the day, about a girl who becomes a mother against her will, who has her life stolen against her will and can't even decide if/when to end it - a woman who feels has been robbed from all agency and choice in her life so she feels the only paths forward are either pure hatred or self-pity. I thought it was excellently done though maybe it would feel completely different, for better or worse, were I a woman or a mother.

Anyway, this was a dense dense chapter but it was so damn enthralling. It feels different from DG, in which Erikson had to start from scratch in a way and build from there - this one harkens back to GOTM not only in the very obvious way (with the same characters, after said book) but also in the way of dropping you into a narrative that's also begun and that you must pick of the pace or get left behind - thanfully, I think Erikson learned from GOTM and, despite the "in medias res" nature of the narrative, tries to make it somewhat more digestible - or perhaps, because know i know more, I feel like I'm less lost than when reading GOTM.

Onwards to Chapter 6! Thanks for reading!
 

Flambe

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Yeah, the Mhybe stuff is very tragic and difficult to read =[
I do like Quick dropping Kallor into the earth and getting the fuck outta there right away.

Thanks for the updates :) I paused my reading to let you catch up lol.
 
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Altazor

Altazor

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Yeah, the Mhybe stuff is very tragic and difficult to read =[
I do like Quick dropping Kallor into the earth and getting the fuck outta there right away.

Thanks for the updates :) I paused my reading to let you catch up lol.

lol, for sure. That took me by surprise, and I loved how basically everybody's reaction to that was "we should all peace out before he climbs back up. Especially you, Ben" hahahahaha

I'm glad these postings are useful enough for people :D At least they are for me - writing about them keeps me focused and motivated on my reading.
 

Snormy

I'll think about it
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I like reading your posts about the chapters you have read. I enjoy that you mix some of the more emotionally heavy content with some of the thoughtful moments and comedic moments. I think it is easy get lost in some of the horrors in these books. As I think back I remember small moments of laughs and fun between long, grueling campaigns of misery in text. Reading the book isn't actually quite like that all the way though and seeing your write ups I think it balances that quite well.

I really like Quick Ben and Kallam. For Quick I feel like he is often underestimated yet people also realise how dangerous he is too. It is always funny to see someone powerful like Quick say "Nope. I want none of that fight." while instantly running through a million strategies to engage said adversary if shit hits the fan.

Stray thought, if Ben & Kal ascends, would they be sort of like Kel and Dan?
 
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Altazor

Altazor

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8,594
Chile
I like reading your posts about the chapters you have read. I enjoy that you mix some of the more emotionally heavy content with some of the thoughtful moments and comedic moments. I think it is easy get lost in some of the horrors in these books. As I think back I remember small moments of laughs and fun between long, grueling campaigns of misery in text. Reading the book isn't actually quite like that all the way though and seeing your write ups I think it balances that quite well.

I really like Quick Ben and Kallam. For Quick I feel like he is often underestimated yet people also realise how dangerous he is too. It is always funny to see someone powerful like Quick say "Nope. I want none of that fight." while instantly running through a million strategies to engage said adversary if shit hits the fan.

Stray thought, if Ben & Kal ascends, would they be sort of like Kel and Dan?

thanks, I really appreciate your comments on my write-ups! :)

I think C5 really balanced that well, being such a long and dense chapter, having a bit of everything - even right from the start, on the first part of the chapter (Toc/Lady Envy and co.) we have a sequence that mixes a conversation about the past that will certainly be relevant later on, a hint of the technique involved in ancient arrowmaking, some small flirting, a conversation about the power dynamics of a martial society, and a scary demonstration of power that ends with forced levity. And it all continues from that point, mixing the levity of Kruppe's entire shtick (a levity that, we know, hides true knowledge/power/cunning) with the camaraderie and burdens shared between Whiskeyjack and Dujek *and* Anomander and Caladan (which was another parallel inside the chapter, I felt), the sorta typical "I don't want it!!!" drama of 'The Chosen One' figure (Paran, in this case) that's balanced with the surprising levity of Raest's dynamic with him inside Finnest House and the very human drama of the Mhybe and everything that has to do with motherhood that's shortly followed by the hilarious Quick Ben dropping Kallor into a hole and going "peace out, yo!". It's not all dense lore infodump, nor abject misery, or military tactics discussion, it had a nice balance.

And you could see that in parts of DG, even those that were bleak or filled with dread (like the latter part of the Chain of Dogs narrative) you still had small moments of goodness, or hope, or even gallows humor. Well, except on the early Felisin chapters, that were (by design) absolutely fucking miserable.

QB and Kalam are great. I hope we get to see them together again in a future book, to see that dynamic and see how much they've changed. Oh, and the fact that my mental image for QB is Lance Reddick when he was in The Wire that makes him even more badass 😁
 

flook

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Oct 28, 2017
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Having read your updates this morning I find myself pondering (again) the question of my favourite Bridgeburner - itself a subset of the eternal question: my favourite (MBotF character). I'm at 90%ish of the way through MoI but as it is a reread I try to be very conscious of posting spoilers in this thread; suffice it to say my current favourite duo really come in to their own in this book.
 

Flambe

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Having read your updates this morning I find myself pondering (again) the question of my favourite Bridgeburner - itself a subset of the eternal question: my favourite (MBotF character). I'm at 90%ish of the way through MoI but as it is a reread I try to be very conscious of posting spoilers in this thread; suffice it to say my current favourite duo really come in to their own in this book.

Oh my god, you can't make me choose. You can just pick a damn character trait (funny, badass, crazy, tragic) and I can give you an amazing character but to suss all that out into picking just one >.<

And that's just the Bridgeburners. You have duos that are fantastic for all those things too (especially 'funny', man I can't wait for Altazor to get to
T & B
 
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Altazor

Altazor

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suffice it to say my current favourite duo really come in to their own in this book.

👀👀👀

Y'all giving me some hype 😁
Can't believe I still have like 20 chapters to read, it feels like I've spent a lot of time already but it hasn't been a slog or anything - I guess that's the thing with doorstoppers.
 

Snormy

I'll think about it
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Oct 25, 2017
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Morizora's Forest
Having read your updates this morning I find myself pondering (again) the question of my favourite Bridgeburner - itself a subset of the eternal question: my favourite (MBotF character). I'm at 90%ish of the way through MoI but as it is a reread I try to be very conscious of posting spoilers in this thread; suffice it to say my current favourite duo really come in to their own in this book.

For me it is probably easy. It is Whiskeyjack for Bridgeburners. Trull for overall in the series and Apsalar/Sorry for a runner up soft spot character as she grows into her own character over time.
WJ and Trull are sort of similar in that they both meet a very unfortunate end. Both exceptionally skilled and dependable. WJ's story is short but sweet. Gruff army dude who ends up getting some of the shittiest treatment due to politics. Trying his best to do the right things while also slaughter and death happens all around him. Manages to find love near the end of his life only to die defending someone else.

Trull is not only surprisingly skilled but also one of the kindest souls in the series. Reading through his despair and challenges is fascinating. With Trull it felt like he was a hero who had everything go wrong, everything was stripped away from him, piece by piece. Every moment of reprieve felt like the the smallest breath before launching into another challenge. His journey was so fascinating in that it explores the Letheri and Edur people with a side of Andii in the background. His end was also incredible in all the wrong ways. Anger that is only matched by Fiddler's in that very scene. Have we ever seen Fiddler actually so angry before? Even Quick Ben was a little uneasy at Fiddler's sudden, dark request. This moment here reminds me of "Bring him back alive. He has earned Dragnipur" with Rake and Whiskeyjack.

With Apsalar. I just find her back and forth between wanting a normal life, being completely inexperienced in it and just not knowing what to do kind of relateable and really interesting. It was both fascinating as she has power and a deadly skill set. You don't always know where she is going and what her plans areNot knowing these but aware of her skills make her frightening. Yet it is so incredibly easy to forget how unimaginably tormented she may be. She is still very young. The fact that she didn't even speak up or defend herself and Kalam almost ends her lift in misguided rage is horrifying given the Bridgeburners maybe the few people who might accept her for who she is despite everything. She is arguably the deadliest assassin in this series by the end.
Some of my favourite moments with her is when she has conversations and people tell her things about her that she likely doesn't know herself.
"You're Dancer's daughter. You must be, although I see no facial similarities – your mother must have been beautiful. It's in your walk, and how you stand there. You're his beget, and he was selfish enough to teach you, his own child, the ways of assassination. I can see how that troubles you. It's there in your eyes. The legacy haunts you – you're feeling trapped, caged in. There's already blood on your hands, isn't there? Is he proud of that? I should've drowned him then and there. Had I been drunk, I would have."
 

Atrophis

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Oct 25, 2017
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Talking of characters, Eriksons latest has several brand new characters that have already become fan favourites. It's kind of crazy that after so many books and creating literally hundreds of characters he can still pull out unique and lovable new ones. The man still has it.
 
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Altazor

Altazor

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Oct 25, 2017
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Chile
Talking of characters, Eriksons latest has several brand new characters that have already become fan favourites. It's kind of crazy that after so many books and creating literally hundreds of characters he can still pull out unique and lovable new ones. The man still has it.

that's amazing! Does the new book feel like an actual continuation of the series, or is it much its own thing? Like, I dunno, The Legend of Korra in respect to Avatar: the Last Airbender - very much a sequel but with a completely different tone.
 

Atrophis

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The book is quite different in style to the main series. It's shorter, follows a smaller number of characters and takes place in a smaller geographical area. But it is definitely a continuation. We learn how the world has moved on since the last book, how magic has changed, how the marines style of fighting has evolved, how the empire is doing etc.
 
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Altazor

Altazor

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Oh, that's very nice. It seems I'll have yet another book to read after I'm done with the main series 😁
 

Snormy

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The book is quite different in style to the main series. It's shorter, follows a smaller number of characters and takes place in a smaller geographical area. But it is definitely a continuation. We learn how the world has moved on since the last book, how magic has changed, how the marines style of fighting has evolved, how the empire is doing etc.

New favourites are good. Any of the old favourites? Is it the Karsa trilogy?
 

Atrophis

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Karsa isn't in the first book at all. One Bridgeburner returns as a main character, the rest of the marines are all new. There is also a Karsa related side character that comes back as a main character. He does that thing where he takes someone you probably don't even remember and turns them into a fully fleshed out and complicated character. We also get a few fan servicey cameos.

It's Karsa related as much of the book deals with the fall out of his actions in HoC but there's a chance he doesn't show up directly until the last book. It certainly doesn't make him a hero protagonist.
 

Snormy

I'll think about it
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Oct 25, 2017
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Karsa isn't in the first book at all. One Bridgeburner returns as a main character, the rest of the marines are all new. There is also a Karsa related side character that comes back as a main character. He does that thing where he takes someone you probably don't even remember and turns them into a fully fleshed out and complicated character. We also get a few fan servicey cameos.

It's Karsa related as much of the book deals with the fall out of his actions in HoC but there's a chance he doesn't show up directly until the last book. It certainly doesn't make him a hero protagonist.
That's fascinating and I have more questions now than I started with. Damn.

I'm not convinced there are ANY heroes in this series. Except maybe Trull but even then probably not. Most characters go through some messed up shit and have had some really tough choices.