It's not an odd take. It makes sense and they should have their shit together for the next inevitable trilogy. Hire one director to do it. Make a cohesive vision.
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
JJ Abrams on The Last Jedi
- Thread starter Bor Gullet
- Start date
I'm glad these folks feel comfortable speaking openly about the franchise. Even if JJ and Terrio hadn't said anything about TLJ it would've been obvious what they think once TROS came out. Their thoughts on TLJ are consistent with their vision for Star Wars in general.
Neither of those things have anything to do with what I was talking about.Maybe you can answer the following questions then if this is the premise of your argument:
1.When does Finn stop caring about only himself and/or Rey in TFA.Aka, when does his character arc progress past this line:
2.When does Rey come to terms with and/or get over the childhood trauma of being abandoned by her parents?
Can you link to those scenes in TFA? The premise of your argument is that the story is the EXACT same story and thus it would mean that these characters moved past these character flaws already in TFA. So by all means, please link to those scenes. 😃
edit:
To address them, though, the first is seen (as many have pointed out in the Boyega thread) after that scene. You realize the movie doesn't end there, right?
the second didn't have to be dealt with the way it was. Nothing did. So the "He could only follow what JJ Mystery boxed him into" claims are disingenuous.
Use words better then. How is TLJ the EXACT same story and not, you know, a continuation of a story and character arcs.
I'm saying that the argument seems to be that JJ somehow forced Rian into a certain path that is TLJ based on his "bullshit mystery boxes" or whatever else people have argued in this thread. It's a wrongheaded deterministic argument.
I'm a very casual Star Wars fan - I enjoy the movies, but I'm not terribly invested in many characters or the lore at all. I've seen the prequels and the Disney spin offs only once each, and 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 only two or three times each.
My issue with 8 wasn't the story or choices at all. I liked that I kept being surprised. Again, I understand why fans who love this lore hate it, but I was pretty engrossed. My issue is it felt so damn slowly paced. They could've trimmed 20 minutes off the movie and just cut some fat and it would be a better movie, but honestly, I think it's a fine movie.
My issue with 8 wasn't the story or choices at all. I liked that I kept being surprised. Again, I understand why fans who love this lore hate it, but I was pretty engrossed. My issue is it felt so damn slowly paced. They could've trimmed 20 minutes off the movie and just cut some fat and it would be a better movie, but honestly, I think it's a fine movie.
right but that's only after they asked jj to do all three and he said no.
so the answer to your original question is jj abrams.
JJ Abrams created a introduction that in essence created expectations that would've led to a much more derivative and predictable film than what we got. As teh entire thesis of TFA was about what makes a good SW movie and how does it fit into modern cinema. Meaning the best course of action was to create not a predictable film that was essentially Empire 2.0 but to go with the ideas that made ESB so innovative and loved in the first place. Which in this context=a darker film with a huge emphasis on the concept of self reflection.
He didn't have a choice. A flashbacks are terrible. And B like, if Luke turns Rey down how long is she really gonna stick around for when everyone needs here.
The best way to show what happened was to show it.
There were other ways to do it, but in the end, the best was a direct continuation for Luke / Rey / Kylo's story, which means we got the same thing for Finn/Poe
Again, none of that necessitates the film we got, which was the point I was making.
It really does. TLJ is a fantastic followup to the reintroduction of SW. 🤷♂️
I disagree on both counts. If you really believe Canto Bight, Finn's terrible treatment, the lightsaber toss, the return to the Kylo/Rey status quo, and other things that people had issues with in the film were inevitable based on the end of TFA, then I don't know what to say to you.
Finn watches Kylo kill Han, then he ragdolls Rey, then he slashes Finn's back putting him in a coma. After TFA that felt like more than enough for Finn to want to fight Kylo/The First Order.
Apparently the only way to move forward was to revert him and spend an entire other movie learning the same thing, but actually not learning it because now he sees that "both sides" are buying weapons and supporting the enslavement of horse-things and everything's gray, but still he's rebel scum, but [head explodes]
If anything getting not only tortured but straight up slashed with a lightsaber would realistically reaffirm every fear he had about getting killed. Which is exactly where he starts in TLJ.
You see there you go saying things again, when did Finn move past this line?
Inverting implies that he moved past this in the film, or that this is proper motivation to want to fight:
after literally spending an entire film running away so that something like this wouldn't happen.
If you think the message of Canto Bight was "both sides" and that everything is grey then you weren't paying attention. If only there was an entire sequence where the film says, "yes no this whole Canto Bight war profiteering thing is bullshit"
It's the explicit message that DJ states and Rose and Finn are taken aback by it? What does a dumb as fuck chase scene gif do to prove what you said?If anything getting not only tortured but straight up slashed with a lightsaber would realistically reaffirm every fear he had about getting killed. Which is exactly where he starts in TLJ.
You see there you go saying things again, when did Finn move past this line?
Inverting implies that he moved past this in the film, or that this is proper motivation to want to fight:
after literally spending an entire film running away so that something like this wouldn't happen.
If you think the message of Canto Bight was "both sides" and that everything is grey then you weren't paying attention. If only there was an entire sequence where the film says, "yes no this whole Canto Bight war profiteering thing is bullshit"
The answer to your first part has been addressed by so many people.
I could understand this argument except for the fact that Finn is already planning on sneaking onto the Supremacy to disable the tracker before even visiting Canto Bight. He's not scared at all. He's still doing it for Rey but he's not a coward.If anything getting not only tortured but straight up slashed with a lightsaber would realistically reaffirm every fear he had about getting killed. Which is exactly where he starts in TLJ.
You see there you go saying things again, when did Finn move past this line?
Inverting implies that he moved past this in the film, or that this is proper motivation to want to fight:
after literally spending an entire film running away so that something like this wouldn't happen.
He's doing so specifically because that would be the only way, in his eyes, to escape the first order. Finn isn't a do nothing kind of coward, he does things as long as it ensures his survival. That was his main character flaw in TFA and TLJ.
So let me get this straight, you think the overall message of the sequence is the thing said by the dude who ends up selling everyone out and causing a ton of death and destruction? Like, literally the character who's the embodiment of this?
Are you one of those people who think the message of the film is "let the past die"
He's not running for his own survival in TLJ. He only goes to the escape pod after he picks up the binary tracker Leia drops. He specifically says he doesn't want to lead Rey to the fleet.
If he was only concerned about his own survival and protecting Rey he could have just sat in that cell on Canto Bight and waited out the war.
We've been over this multiple times. Having the protagonist and antagonist express two opposing ideologies so that by the end of the movie you land somewhere in the middle is a well known storytelling technique that was also employed in TLJ. Rey blindly idolizes the past, Kylo blindly rejects it. Kylo's stance is part of the debate happening in the movie.
A bold decision would have been to have Rey join Kylo by the end of TLJ. Would have actually made sense given the only Jedi/lightside user fails her while actually building a connection with Kylo/darkside. Then this third movie could have put Finn in the limelight.
You should take a break if TLJ is making your head explode.
Most people agree that the Finn storyline is the weakest part of TLJ but its no reason to write the movie off.
Knives Out is fantastic. Rian is great when doing his own thing. TLJ was a hot mess.
Even if a film is part of a series, it should still be able to stand on its own merits, exceptions obviously being stuff like The Human Condition, Bondarchuk's War and Peace, and Lord of the Rings, which are technically one long work split into smaller volumes.
Like, most MGS fans aren't dismissive of MGS 1-3, even if the later games are considered much weaker by comparison, or - in the case of MGS2 - much of its metanarrative components are retconned and wizarded despite them not needing to be.
Because surely the dude constantly concerned about Rey would just sit on his hands and expect everything to be fine.
The movie literally spends the entire climax rebuffing Kylo and the final shot of Kylo is him looking broken as Rey, and by extension the audience, leaves him behind. The film then goes on to literally show children mesmerized by the myth of Luke Skywalker in the same way that Rey was at the beginning of TFA. Kylo presenting an alternate viewpoint is not the film validating his mindset. Especially when he himself cannot stick to his convictions.
Leia and the resistance waiting for her..
Rey doesn't build a connection with the dark side in TLJ. Her building a connection with Kylo is based on the naivete that he isn't turning further dark but is about to be redeemed to help her kill Snoke.
She builds a connection with Ben Solo.
Worst moment in all of Star Wars for me personally. What a cheap direction to take that moment.
And I say this as someone who still loves the movie.
"Myth" is the keyword here. The myth of the past lives on, the ugly realities of the past fade away.
It is such a bad moment. Personally I think it is indicative of everything else that is wrong with the movie which I think is bad as a whole, but I have heard people who like the movie try to defend that moment and I just do not get it. It is okay to admit that there are flaws in things you like. Hell I am obsessed with Riverdale and it might be one of the worst things ever filmed.
Except that Luke lived up to the myth and did the most jedi thing we've ever seen in SW, Luke not being a perfect human being does not=man you know Kylo had some good points. The film goes out of it's way to say that Kylo is wrong, as his sentiment was shared by a suicidally depressed Luke, who was also wrong for 90% of his screen time.
Luke tossing the lightsaber is not a flaw of the film. It's the start of Rey's conflict.
"This moment affected me exactly the way it's supposed to"
being presented as an inherent flaw that we MUST acknowledge is pretty hilarious tbh.
Just want to commend you trying to get people here to understand the movie. You're too nice.
Also the lightsaber toss is very good film making.
Personally I don't think the start of major character's conflict should be played as a joke. If it was in fact meant to be what you claim then it is severely undercut for the sake of unnecessary humour.
I don't mind Luke tossing it as a characterization moment. He's tossed the lightsaber before at the end of ROTJ.
It's the whole moment being presented as a "gotcha" joke that takes me out of it and now when you go back to TFA to watch the ending, Rey holding out the lightsaber to Luke loses so much more impact because you know what happens next there (at least for me).
I have issue with the framing basically.
The lightsaber toss was part of Luke trying to tell Rey to fuck off because how didn't want none of that Jedi life.
It's framed as a joke of subjective taste.
It's framed as a joke of subjective taste.
So much this. TFA gave us a nuanced insight into his sentiments about where he leans, politically, why go over it again over 2 hours. Thank god we had Boyega call it out, christ TLJ fanatics had the rug swept right underneath them.
Yeah, but maybe the movie should take that moment seriously instead of presenting it as a joke. It takes you out of the movie.
They do take it seriously. Its the audience who laughed.
Watch it again alone. It's on netflix. Lemme know if you find it humorous.
I don't find it funny because its funny. It's slightly comedic because its so shocking to see Luke do that.
As a non fan that grew up in a country that Star War was never a big deal. TLJ is one of, if not the best SW film for me.
I think it was a really fresh take on the franchise. It's very unpredictable, and I found it hard for me to not enjoy the film that packed with such surprises and spectacle scenes. There are like 3 big climax scenes that movie keep on giving. It was a thrill ride for me 😂 I just don't like the casino planet scene and Rose's character, but that is pretty much all about it.
But I understand why the fan hate it.
I think it was a really fresh take on the franchise. It's very unpredictable, and I found it hard for me to not enjoy the film that packed with such surprises and spectacle scenes. There are like 3 big climax scenes that movie keep on giving. It was a thrill ride for me 😂 I just don't like the casino planet scene and Rose's character, but that is pretty much all about it.
But I understand why the fan hate it.
Again, Luke should've been introduced in TFA, in which case the lightsaber throw would've been a wonderful character introduction instead of a strange resolution to a two year cliffhanger.
No it doesn't. It states plainly that Luke isn't having any part of this shit.
I do. There's a way to not present it humorously. Just let him drop it and say a few words.
Chucking it over his shoulder while the music cuts out is inherently humorous.
I don't find it funny because it's not a good joke and it doesn't suit the movie but it is 100 percent framed and played as a joke by the film.
Finn can be resolved by Poe waking him up to answers and comfort. Have Poe tell him they've got an errand to run on the way to Rey; Have it be a lie if you want.
Rey is never burdened by her loneliness, so I don't really care that she is declared nobody by Kylo or w/e else that's about.
I love that the movie tried to create a morally grey plot about rebels buying weapons from arm dealers just like the first order, when one is committing planetary genocide and the other is trying to stop them. Its basically the "both sides" of the star wars universe.