Actually I'm illustrating the difference between your own position and the position of the people whose racist views you're tolerating.
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Jeremy Corbyn (leader of opposition, UK) reported to Parliament and Labour Party for antisemitism
- Thread starter Roberto Larcos
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Actually I'm illustrating the difference between your own position and the position of the people whose racist views you're tolerating.
Do you believe what Israel is doing to Palestine is a war crime?
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User warned: arguing in bad faith and misrepresenting post on purpose.
This might be the most disgusting thing I've read on this site. No, under no circumstances should you advocate wiping out all Jews. Jesus, fuck
Turns out a goose-step away was underestimating it.
Its like I selectively quoted you out of context to misrepresent your views.
I learned from what you did in the OP.
Interesting how it should only be challenged when it is done to yourself.
That's not what the poster said. He said he understands why there are Palestinians that get that radicalized. With their conditions over the years and decades, that's no rocket science.
Yes, as a matter of fact I do. You're free to say this. You're free to say that Israel's government is racist. Same way as you can quite rightly say that the Palestinians are institutionally racist. The problem with the Corbyn's of the world is that this is a genuinely complex and nuanced issue, and reducing it to Israel is evil and secretly controls the world is textbook antisemitism.
He didn't, he said he can understand where the hate comes from and why people think things like that, I can understand why the Conservatives in Israel think like they do as well.
To be clear I'm talking about Israel, as the latter is very much attempting the eradication of Palestine.
Then Israel doesn't help matters by declaring themselves to be a Jewish state, effectively to some degree taking the mantle of the Jewish people.
You're misinterpreting. Understanding and supporting are two different things entirely.
What the hell is wrong with you?
"I understand why circumstances allowed a group that has a reprehensible idea to form" DOES NOT EQUAL "I agree with genocide".
You are debating in appallingly bad faith. So far, some those that have offered contrary opinions have been accused of being goose-stepping nazis and evil advocates of genocide. You are doing to them what you are doing to Corbyn.
"Fake news by the biased conservative media" is not a defence when Corbyn's comments are on tape.
This is "la la la I can't hear you" - it's echoing the same sort of thing Trump supporters say.
"Supporting antisemites to own the Tories"
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To me, 'I can understand why they believe that' means that it's a logical position to hold. The eradication of all Jews is not a logical position to hold, even for Palestinians, sorry.
It's apologism, and I won't abide it.
It's apologism, and I won't abide it.
It isn't a logical position to hold, that is the point.
I never claimed to tolerate anyone? Im fairly certain I didn't even mention a name.
And I sure as hell never defended that position jfc.
Everyone who's lost someone to it deserves empathy it isn't about sides. The issue is the conflict itself and no governments do much to even acknowledge that its an ongoing issue.
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I expect similar empathy for those who have lost family members to suicide bombers in Israel joining the IDF will be incoming any moment now.
No it doesn't, they changed there charter in 2017:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/01/hamas-new-charter-palestine-israel-1967-borders
and showed a willingness to accept a peace agreement with Israel as early as 2008:
https://www.haaretz.com/1.4972217
The idea that meeting with the elected representatives of an oppressed and dehumanized people is an act of racism is nonsense. I'm sure you would have also called those who supported the ANC's legitimacy as a political entity, terrorist sympathizers during apartheid.
It's not a logical position. It's an emotional position. Human beings are rarely logical. What the previous poster said is also not apologism, and your reactions are only likely to inflame the other side.
I understand lots of things that I don't condone, that's s a strange position to take in my opinion.
"I understand the history and circumstances that led to the contemptable Emperor Palpatine's rise to power" = I AM DARTH VADER AND I WOULD PERSONALLY KILL EVERYONE ON ALDERAAN AGAIN.
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Before I ever replied to you, you linked me to The Sun's jobs page.
"the Palestinians are institutionally racist"
What all of them?!?
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I'd use the term ineffective. He should be polling well ahead of the Tory trashfire by now.
That is literally all it takes. A progressive, left wing social democrat with charisma and competence.
Personally I would prefer a woman but acceptable candidates are thin on the ground. Rayner is the best one I could stomach but I increasingly feel constricted by who is acceptable to momentum rather than the Labour party.
You've said a lot of stupid stuff but this takes the cake. Understanding why someone feels some way isn't condoning it. I understand why people here have thrown old west Britain under the bus but I don't condone it.
Says the poster who equates understanding someone's views with endorsement of said views.
It's not. Every time people argue that Israel needs to stop what it's doing or get sanctioned for it, people bring out this argument that if they're gonna do that, Palestinians will push them into the sea. It's no surprise there are a sizeable number of radicalized Palestinians given the conditions they had to endure, and it's certainly no excuse to keep the status quo and pretend any progress is impossible as long as there are Palestinians that have that stance.
Maybe you had no intention of that, but that's what it reads like every time people bring this up, while Israel gets to be just as if not more radicalized without being under any real existential threat with all its western backing.
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Apparently we should be content that he's trading blows with the weakest PM since Callaghan.
The trouble is the country is divided, I don't think it's that easy to pick up votes, ukip and the libdems are tiny, both major parties have fairly high poll numbers.
I don't think the old rules will work at the moment. Hopefully that changes but Labour can just as easily lose vote going centre ground remain as win them.
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I'm gonna say on such a tense topic that you really have to be more clear on that.
To others, 'kill all Jews' has very few parallels, but I'll give one that may give more idea of where I'm coming from. If anybody says, "well actually, I understand why white Americans wanted to enslave people from the Carribbean", they'd get accused instantly of apologism. By nature of even saying such a heinous thing is understandable, logical, it's apologism. It's also deeply offensive and entirely unacceptable.
I didn't mention any conspiracy.
A conspiracy would involve people acting together. I believe capitalists defend their interests individually. They end up defending the same policies because it benefits them the most, but they don't meet up every Tuesday to overthrow this or that government, if that's what you think I'm saying.
Noticing a global trend against a political ideology doesn't mean I'm into conspiracies...
Perhaps you're right. It just seems like Labour should be doing better under the circumstances. If he was a stronger remainer I bet he would be.
I had always assumed that in the UK the term Zionist meant 'Nationalist Jews' that seek to push the Muslims out and not share the Holy Land of Israel between all the Abrahamic faiths involved.
I thought that was clear? Nothing wrong with Jewish people (who I would call Jewish, or moderate), and of course, nobody at all from anywhere should be getting murdered, but the slow creep of Nationalist Jews (who I would call Conservative, or Zionist) into British politics I feel is a result of the UK swinging more into the hysterical realm of US politics and 'lobbying'.
I personally sympathise with moderate Palestinian Muslims and moderate Israeli Jews that want to live in peace. No land grabbing, no embassy switching, no guns, no bombs.
I thought that was clear? Nothing wrong with Jewish people (who I would call Jewish, or moderate), and of course, nobody at all from anywhere should be getting murdered, but the slow creep of Nationalist Jews (who I would call Conservative, or Zionist) into British politics I feel is a result of the UK swinging more into the hysterical realm of US politics and 'lobbying'.
I personally sympathise with moderate Palestinian Muslims and moderate Israeli Jews that want to live in peace. No land grabbing, no embassy switching, no guns, no bombs.
It's not apologism. Understanding and supporting or sympathizing are two different things.
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For a long time in the Labour Party, particularly among Trotskyists and Militant, Zionist has been used as a euphemism for Jew.
I think before you could argue he was simply rubbing shoulders with bad people as an unfortunate consequence of being a Palestinian rights campaigner. And you could say that the Labour party has handled the Anti-Semitism issue poorly.
Now though, with this, I don't really see how you can any longer claim that he's not personally anti Semitic. He's not a BNP style, "kike yid" racist, but this is classic "othering". Even if you give him an enormous level of benefit of doubt that, frankly, he's long since burned through, and assume he is talking about very specific people, rather than Jews or even Zionists generally, this is still abti-semitic. He's specifically saying that "you being, despite being here all your loves, aren't sufficiently English." It doesn't matter if he's talking about a specific person or specific set of people - that's utterly racist to suggest that because of a political difference, they aren't as English as him (and apparantly don't understand "English irony" as well as the Palestinian envoy?)
But of course, he wasn't talking about specific people. Obviously he wasn't. Obviously he wasn't talking about a mixed group who included both Jewish and non-Jewish people. It doesn't make sense. To use an example I've seen floating around on Twitter, Tony Blair is a zionist. He's lived in the UK most of his life. Even if he had been at the parliamentary event (staying thankfully silent during it, natch) and then came up to contest the contents after - would *any* of what Corbyn said make sense? Not even remotely. He was talking about Jews, plain and simple. And he thinks that, because they disagree with him, aren't really English. And if they're not really English, what are they? They must have some sort of loyalty to something else.
Now though, with this, I don't really see how you can any longer claim that he's not personally anti Semitic. He's not a BNP style, "kike yid" racist, but this is classic "othering". Even if you give him an enormous level of benefit of doubt that, frankly, he's long since burned through, and assume he is talking about very specific people, rather than Jews or even Zionists generally, this is still abti-semitic. He's specifically saying that "you being, despite being here all your loves, aren't sufficiently English." It doesn't matter if he's talking about a specific person or specific set of people - that's utterly racist to suggest that because of a political difference, they aren't as English as him (and apparantly don't understand "English irony" as well as the Palestinian envoy?)
But of course, he wasn't talking about specific people. Obviously he wasn't. Obviously he wasn't talking about a mixed group who included both Jewish and non-Jewish people. It doesn't make sense. To use an example I've seen floating around on Twitter, Tony Blair is a zionist. He's lived in the UK most of his life. Even if he had been at the parliamentary event (staying thankfully silent during it, natch) and then came up to contest the contents after - would *any* of what Corbyn said make sense? Not even remotely. He was talking about Jews, plain and simple. And he thinks that, because they disagree with him, aren't really English. And if they're not really English, what are they? They must have some sort of loyalty to something else.
It's apologism when you don't distance yourself from that position. Which tbf to that poster he did.
This is nicely representative of your thread in general. Deliberately misrepresent other people's points, wipe away any sense of nuance and shriek about oppression and Antisemitism, all while Palestinian civilians are actually being oppressed and ethnically-cleansed.
I wasn't specifically referring to Corbyn, but since you asked here:
https://www2.le.ac.uk/news/blog/201...t-unearths-viral-image-of-labour-party-leader
The broader point is that the ANC and Nelson Mandela were once "Terrorists" who couldn't be negotiated with. Sinn Fein were "Terrorists" who couldn't be negotiated with and according to the same people who said the ANC and Sinn Fein couldn't be negotiated with, Hamas are "Terrorists" who can't be negotiated with.
Is there anyone now that you'd call Trotskyist in Labour today?
No.
Zionism is the political belief of a nation-state homeland for the Jews. The majority view is that this should be in Palestine, but as an ideology zionism has adapted in time and comes in many flavours.
Yet the OP is wildly tossing around goose stepping comparisons to anyone who says they understand. I understand their viewpoint. I also consider it abhorrent and reactionary.
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