aerts1js

Member
May 11, 2019
1,661
To be honest, it was the PS3 generation with Uncharted 2, God of War 3, Killzone 2, Ratchet: Crack in Time, Red Dead, etc where I thought to myself that I'm totally fine if graphics peaked here… all these years later I STILL think they look good and my opinion has remained unchanged.
 

Osiris397

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,509
The criticism is a little premature even with the price as crazy as it is just because no new first party games have been seen and it's essentially for these games that the expanded features were designed/built.

If in 2025 with the mountain of new unannounced content Sony apparently has is announced/released and this thing looks like it's performing anywhere near an RTX 4090, which is possible with hardware specific development it could look like good value for money to people that can afford it...if not, well all the smoke is here already.

Sony should have shown one new unannounced first party non cross-generation game that they've been hiding and it would have been received better in general.

I am a PSVR2 owner, so I'm somewhat biased but I also know VR gamers are willing to pay more for for good value. Even without knowing for sure how effective PSSR will be or how effective it will be for PSVR2 just yet there is a possibility that many if not most games can be ported to VR at little expense and put more players in the game world virtually with ideal frame rates and fewer compromises or none. It's just down to whether Sony wants to continue down the all or nothing path of development for PSVR2 which has yielded a few great ground-up PSVR2 titles/hybrids like RE8, RE4, GT7, Vertigo 2 and Horizon COTM and then a bunch of Quest ports that aren't particularly taxing on the system or whether Sony wants to take the middle path, probably "support" some of these 3rd parties a bit further for PSVR2 support in their standard/flat games.

One of Sony sticking points that lead to them discouraging flat to VR porting of standard games in the past has been the lack of 3D audio, which is important in VR. Now in the PS5 era I believe all game audio conforms to Tempest 3D sound standard at some level or another. With the UEVR injector we now know that pretty much everything can run in VR. The only thing that's necssary is optimization to keep the games running well. PSSR and ray tracing can help a ton with optmization if they work well.
 
Sep 29, 2020
1,278
Physics is what impress me the most in games and I haven't seen a game with impressive physics in a long time and honestly, this generation feels more like the next step up graphics wise from the 360/PS3 than XOne/PS4 did. Diminishing returns indeed.
 

MeltedDreams

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,706
Physics is what impress me the most in games and I haven't seen a game with impressive physics in a long time and honestly, this generation feels more like the next step up graphics wise from the 360/PS3 than XOne/PS4 did. Diminishing returns indeed.

Yeah, i think Astro Bot has most impressive physics out of any PS5 game yet and looks gorgeous on base PS5 + perfect 60fps.
Physics in 99% of games are pretty basic sadly.
 

NukeRunner

Member
Feb 8, 2024
1,226
Spiderman 2 was a really good case of what the next gen can do. At a surface levels it's just a bit prettier, but the instant transitions, the speed you can traverse the city and detail, ray tracing everywhere to bring the city windows to life, etc. But to the end user it looks like a marginal improvement over Spiderman Remastered or Miles Morales

All of this seems like barely an improvement though, something the bulk end users may not even really notice without being told. Like I love the faster load times, faster installs, better more refined visuals, etc, but I'm an enthusiast who likes to focus on the details.

It isn't to say there is nothing different, but how obvious that is, is shrinking rapidly. Show a person footage of Ocarina of Time and Shenmue, then Spider-Man 1 versus 2, they will absolutely think the first comparison is way, way more impressive.

We're talking hardware evolution of around 2 years in the case of the first scenario, versus what was 7 years from PS4 to PS5. It's almost scary to imagine what the leap to PS6 will look like from PS5 if they decide to release such a thing within say, 4 years from now.

There exist people that have often waited for a visual analysis to decide if they are happy or upset with a game on a tech level. I still remember the days where people would flip out if they found out the resolution was faked in some way even if they liked how it looked prior. We're simply entering a time that without a tech breakthrough, the evolution will seem very tepid, which SHOULD slow down hardware generations more until there is a reason to actually put something out.
 
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Lashley

<<Tag Here>>
Member
Oct 25, 2017
62,802
I mean I don't disagree with him.

I think these games look mind blowingly good on PS5 in performance mode and yet every time I open a thread on here or reddit people are complaining about trees not having enough leaf coverage at distance or how "blurry" the edges of pixels look when you zoom in on them.

I'm happy people have passion about things, but I rarely am disappointed with the graphics of games like Spider Man 2 or God of War.
Because you just named the games with good image quality.

When people say that shit, they aren't meaning Spider-Man 2 or GoW. They mean things like Rebirth in performance mode.
 

Doctor Avatar

Member
Jan 10, 2019
2,685
Because you just named the games with good image quality.

When people say that shit, they aren't meaning Spider-Man 2 or GoW. They mean things like Rebirth in performance mode.

Or basically any UE5 game.

And given UE5 is going to become the dominant 3rd party engine in the next few years PS5 Pro is going to have an absolutely huge image quality advantage over the base when UE5 often runs sub 1080p on PS5.
 

dgrdsv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,879
It's not the futility of graphics race.
It's the futility of current chip production situation and the decision to just use the same h/w vendor for 4 consoles in a row.
 

Masterz1337

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,473
All of this seems like barely an improvement though, something the bulk end users may not even really notice without being told. Like I love the faster load times, faster installs, better more refined visuals, etc, but I'm an enthusiast who likes to focus on the details.

It isn't to say there is nothing different, but how obvious that is, is shrinking rapidly. Show a person footage of Ocarina of Time and Shenmue, then Spider-Man 1 versus 2, they will absolutely think the first comparison is way, way more impressive.

We're talking hardware evolution of around 2 years in the case of the first scenario, versus what was 7 years from PS4 to PS5. It's almost scary to imagine what the leap to PS6 will look like from PS5 if they decide to release such a thing within say, 4 years from now.

There exist people that have often waited for a visual analysis to decide if they are happy or upset with a game on a tech level. I still remember the days where people would flip out if they found out the resolution was faked in some way even if they liked how it looked prior. We're simply entering a time that without a tech breakthrough, the evolution will seem very tepid, which SHOULD slow down hardware generations more until there is a reason to actually put something out.
My point is a game like Spiderman 2 just couldn't exist on the PS4 just on how big and fast the world loads alone. The visuals are a different matter where the improvements are significant but not essential.

It is crazy when you look at how at one point we had...

Doom 1992
Doom 2 1993
Goldeneye 1996
Perfect Dark 1999
Halo 2001

And unreal and Half life in there as well. Back then the advances were huge in such short periods of time.
 

Hasney

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
20,565
My point is a game like Spiderman 2 just couldn't exist on the PS4 just on how big and fast the world loads alone. The visuals are a different matter where the improvements are significant but not essential.

It is crazy when you look at how at one point we had...

Doom 1992
Doom 2 1993
Goldeneye 1996
Perfect Dark 1999
Halo 2001

And unreal and Half life in there as well. Back then the advances were huge in such short periods of time.

You could even slot in Dark Forces and Duke 3D as significant leaps before Goldeneye too
 
Oct 19, 2023
377
From PS2 to PS3 we didn't have to play "spot the difference in screenshots", from 3 to 4 we did sometimes, from 4 to 5 we do it all the time.

PS5 to PS6 … what do you think will happen

Anecdotally, some on forums and social media did just that PS2 to PS3. Same comments almost verbatim.

Effectively claiming the hardware was nothing special and overpriced.

In any event, I think games visually have a long way to go. And the PS4 games at the PS5 Pro presentation were showing their cross gen age. Nothing that makes most people say wow is that a real game.

In my view, the output of games showing what the PS5 can do is starting to catch up to them. Hopefully, they can do something about it. I think it's hurting the marketing of their products and the hype cycle.
 

XaviConcept

Art Director for Videogames
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
5,891
Anecdotally, some on forums and social media did just that PS2 to PS3. Same comments almost verbatim.

Effectively claiming the hardware was nothing special and overpriced.

In any event, I think games visually have a long way to go. And the PS4 games at the PS5 Pro presentation were showing their cross gen age. Nothing that makes most people say wow is that a real game.

In my view, the output of games showing what the PS5 can do is starting to catch up to them. Hopefully, they can do something about it. I think it's hurting the marketing of their products and the hype cycle.
Yeah we were all there for the Perfect Dark shots and we all used to be a lot more toxic back then AND a much smaller community … but overall the differences were obvious
 

Dogui

Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,484
Brazil
It's crazy to think about it, but maybe grapgics racing is turning into a more niche thing in the not so distant future.
 
Oct 31, 2017
13,047
I mean even PS5 isn't that much better than PS4 though

I could see the argument from PS3->PS4 as one of the complaints with PS4's power is that there were already PCs that could do more than what the PS4 did at launch.

I can't see the argument for PS4->PS5, which was a true tech powerhouse at launch.

I don't think PS6 Is going to wow me either. We didn't even get this gen games that wowed me yet.

If you haven't been wowed by the PS5, I can see why someone would think they wouldn't be by the PS6. I just don't really understand how nothing could wow yet.

Anecdotally, some on forums and social media did just that PS2 to PS3. Same comments almost verbatim.

Effectively claiming the hardware was nothing special and overpriced.

In any event, I think games visually have a long way to go. And the PS4 games at the PS5 Pro presentation were showing their cross gen age. Nothing that makes most people say wow is that a real game.

In my view, the output of games showing what the PS5 can do is starting to catch up to them. Hopefully, they can do something about it. I think it's hurting the marketing of their products and the hype cycle.

I wish AOL's Antagonist Gaming was preserved somehow because the number of people unimpressed by the PS2's graphical capabilities was staggering. I had a discussion on IGN back in 05/06 about why PS2 took five years with God of War to finally put something impressive on that couldn't be done on Dreamcast.

These conversations have happened before.
 

Thalanil

Fallen Guardian
Member
Aug 24, 2023
1,137
I think most significant advancements will be in thing like loading times, physics simulation, fps, possible sizes of the worlds in the future, even if we are actually hitting dimishing return in graphics there are still more areas where new hardware may help in pushing gaming forward.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,305
I 100% agree with everything in the article even if I enjoy graphic boundary pushing games. The jump from last Gen is very underwhelming. Stuff like quick resume is way more interesting to me
 

AudioEppa

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
4,801
I always appreciated some of the games I played for pushing their graphics as far as they could take it, but at the end of the day it's the other stuff about it that's more important. I'll always be giddy nerd about seeing crazy realistic graphics because I use to think about that when I little.
 

Derbel McDillet

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Nov 23, 2022
18,146
To be honest, it was the PS3 generation with Uncharted 2, God of War 3, Killzone 2, Ratchet: Crack in Time, Red Dead, etc where I thought to myself that I'm totally fine if graphics peaked here… all these years later I STILL think they look good and my opinion has remained unchanged.
I thought that until I revisited those games.
 

Kabuki Waq

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,272
to be fair going from 30 fps to 60fps is the most transformative thing that can happen from a gameplay and Graphics perspective.
 

Derbel McDillet

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Nov 23, 2022
18,146
yeah idk they still look great? The difference from ps1 to ps3 way more massive than ps3 to ps5.
Okay, your second sentence is an entirely different point tho.

But I made a thread about this once and the PS3 games listed were the main examples of older games looking better in our heads.

www.resetera.com

Revisiting Older Gen Games You Swore Looked Better, Which Revisit Hit You the Hardest

Not a new phenomenon. And I'm not trying to pick on these games or anything. But looking back on old PS3 games has been messing with my head. I can look back on Infamous 1 and 2, see how they aged and be like, yeah, I remember this blowing me away back then, but this is how I remember it. The...
 

z1ggy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,418
Argentina
Talking about power race, watching Jedi Survivor running on the PS4 Pro at 1080p/30 fps and according to the internet its running on the xbox one x at 1440p/30fps, base PS4 900p/30 fps and xbox one at 720/30, made me question a lot of things this past week. I dont have a clear thought on the matter tho.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,647
I thought that until I revisited those games.

I've been playing through Dark Souls 2 on PS3 recently (real hardware, not emulating), and honetly it hasn't felt bad at all. The game looks fine, and the framerate issues are quickly forgotten once I'm actually playing. When I jump to the Xbox One version sure it looks cleaner, but I've never felt like I was missing out be playing the old version.
I first played the Demon's Souls remake a couple months ago, so you'd think I'd be less impressed with a PS3 game after playing that, but I still think DS2 looks nice.
 

GulfCoastZilla

Alt account
Banned
Sep 13, 2022
8,852
If you haven't been wowed by the PS5, I can see why someone would think they wouldn't be by the PS6. I just don't really understand how nothing could wow yet.
I'm more wowed by having field of view sliders in more games?

This is no booting up Battlefield 4 on the 360, and then playing it on a PS4 the next day and being floored by the differences.

I haven't had that yet. Horizon is still pretty, God of War looks like God of War, nothing has me like "holy shit….this is next gen"

Because this gen has always been about better frame rates. Which is great

But as long as COD and Fortnite are still getting cross gen releases 5 years into the life cycle of these systems, I just don't see the point besides "better frame rate and a FOV slider "
 

wafflebrain

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,422
Last night I was playing an indie horror game called Hollow Cocoon that takes place almost entirely in a single location, a traditional Japanese county home (minka), and thought just how pretty it looked using basic AO for lighting, the thing that impressed me the most was the attention to detail in each room and especially how color was distributed and made each little thing stand out in a given area. To my eyes it looked almost photo realistic at times. At one point I turn to my SO and say I'd be perfectly content if games remained at this level visually, but the caveat there is that I also want more games to explore deeper simulation and physics interactions.

We know how to make something look fantastic from the macro/trailer view but maybe we can finally start making these worlds more interactive now, most AAA games are still stuck in relatively the same mechanics and world interactivity we've had since 360/PS3. Astro Bot has me hopeful, seeing all those random physics objects like bolts or acorns all interacting with each other like its straight out of a physics demo has been a delight. I spent way too much time with those Nvidia flex demos and finally seeing something like that utilized in a prominent release is exciting. Now let's see if we get more of that. Mind you I'm not expecting another Red Faction: Guerilla anytime soon, and the total destruction model is probably more suited to low poly/voxel fare like Teardown, but maybe we can find a middle ground there.
 

Beje

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,949
"So, instead of upscaling from 720p games will upscale from 900p and just be a little bit less blurry but still blurry. It will be 800€, disk drive not included". That's what we're talking about with the diminishing returns. Doubling the graphical output barely gives you any more perceivable prowess to work with anymore.
 

LohanKain

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42
Brazil
I really hope they were done with resolution increases after this gen. A huge amount of the graphical leap we'd like to see this gen was eaten by higher resolutions.

Even then, we are hard in diminishing returns now. I'm really enjoying space marine 2 and I think it looks amazing, but because it leverages the CPU to put tons of enemies on screen rather than going for the max graphical detail you can come up with.

I think the same, the push for 4k just make the graphical improvement worst than if the games still be made for 1080p.

Hope that with NPUs being introduced on the new consoles, that IA can make a great upscale from 1080p to 4K, and then the developers can make more advanced games using less memory and wasting less space on the SSD too.
 

th1nk

Member
Nov 6, 2017
7,452
"So, instead of upscaling from 720p games will upscale from 900p and just be a little bit less blurry but still blurry. It will be 800€, disk drive not included". That's what we're talking about with the diminishing returns. Doubling the graphical output barely gives you any more perceivable prowess to work with anymore.
the price is high but downplaying the capabilities of the PS5 Pro to make your point makes you look desperate for an argument.
 

Firefly

Member
Jul 10, 2018
8,974
Epic and Sony really had everyone believing Matrix Awakens quality would be the norm. (and even that struggled to run well).
 
Oct 31, 2017
13,047
I'm more wowed by having field of view sliders in more games?

This is no booting up Battlefield 4 on the 360, and then playing it on a PS4 the next day and being floored by the differences.

I haven't had that yet. Horizon is still pretty, God of War looks like God of War, nothing has me like "holy shit….this is next gen"

Because this gen has always been about better frame rates. Which is great

But as long as COD and Fortnite are still getting cross gen releases 5 years into the life cycle of these systems, I just don't see the point besides "better frame rate and a FOV slider "

Fortnite's not really relevant to the conversation. I didn't look at Fortnite as next-gen when it came out. Or Minecraft. People aren't playing them for graphics. They weren't graphical marvels then, and they're built for continuous play; you're not going to limit your audience right now by not releasing on both gens.

I'd argue you're not able to see the monumental difference between 2020 PS4 games and Demon's Souls Remake (also 2020), I don't know what to tell you. Even Astro's Playroom tripped me out at launch. And then Unreal Engine 5 and games such as Calisto Protocol or demos such as The Matrix were/are crazy to look at.

That's not even getting into gameplay elements that don't seem possible last gen: the number of enemies and portal play in Rift Apart and how unplayable it would be on a PS4, or the instant death/resurrection in Returnal, or the instant fast travel and speed of traversal with no pop-in in Spider-Man 2 (never mind that mission which couldn't have been done in the first game).
 

GulfCoastZilla

Alt account
Banned
Sep 13, 2022
8,852
Fortnite's not really relevant to the conversation. I didn't look at Fortnite as next-gen when it came out. Or Minecraft. People aren't playing them for graphics. They weren't graphical marvels then, and they're built for continuous play; you're not going to limit your audience right now by not releasing on both gens.

I'd argue you're not able to see the monumental difference between 2020 PS4 games and Demon's Souls Remake (also 2020), I don't know what to tell you. Even Astro's Playroom tripped me out at launch. And then Unreal Engine 5 and games such as Calisto Protocol or demos such as The Matrix were/are crazy to look at.

That's not even getting into gameplay elements that don't seem possible last gen: the number of enemies and portal play in Rift Apart and how unplayable it would be on a PS4, or the instant death/resurrection in Returnal, or the instant fast travel and speed of traversal with no pop-in in Spider-Man 2 (never mind that mission which couldn't have been done in the first game).
You're talking about little quality of life things.
Spider-Man 2 was just MORE spider-man (literally and figuratively we got two of them)

God of War felt like an extended epilogue of the first game.

Returnal was fun but it didn't wow me. Ratchet and Clank, gorgeous game but also like my 10th Ratchet and Clank game. At this point it's just more of the same.

I have Demon Souls, but not sure what I'm supppsed to be wowed by, I first played this game on a PS3, it was doing things I never seen before. I was wowed back then. Now it's just…shinier?

I feel like I'll have to wait for the next Naughty Dog game or Ghosts 2 to really feel like "ok next gen is here"

I have the same complaints over on Series X. Nothing over there is wowing me, just less examples.

This gen has been and will continue to be simply about frame rate and FOV.

Maybe technology wise it's just where we are and the jumps are so minimal it just stops impressing me.
 
Oct 31, 2017
13,047
You're talking about little quality of life things.
Spider-Man 2 was just MORE spider-man (literally and figuratively we got two of them)

No, I'm talking about big things. I feel a sense of deja vu because the same stuff was said last gen.

God of War felt like an extended epilogue of the first game.

Returnal was fun but it didn't wow me. Ratchet and Clank, gorgeous game but also like my 10th Ratchet and Clank game. At this point it's just more of the same.

I have Demon Souls, but not sure what I'm supppsed to be wowed by, I first played this game on a PS3, it was doing things I never seen before. I was wowed back then. Now it's just…shinier?

I feel like I'll have to wait for the next Naughty Dog game or Ghosts 2 to really feel like "ok next gen is here"

I have the same complaints over on Series X. Nothing over there is wowing me, just less examples.

This gen has been and will continue to be simply about frame rate and FOV.

Maybe technology wise it's just where we are and the jumps are so minimal it just stops impressing me.

O_o

I'm trying to figure out why playing Battlefield 4 on PS3 and PS4, literally the same game, is a next gen moment (and not "shinier") while getting sequels which couldn't be done on the previous gen or getting a full on PS5 remake of an older PS3 game aren't.
 

Muffin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,463
Because you just named the games with good image quality.

When people say that shit, they aren't meaning Spider-Man 2 or GoW. They mean things like Rebirth in performance mode.
I thought Rebirths performance mode was crap, so I played in fidelity mode.

Sure, 60 FPS are nice. But the thought of being supposed to shell out 920€ for... 30 FPS more for games like Rebirth is laughable. That's not an attractive offer.

The PS4 Pro replaced the price point of the original PS4 at 399$. And did so coming in with support for highly desired and noticeable new features like 4K and HDR.

The PS5 Pro isn't even a tiny bit as attractive as that.
 

Wild Card

Member
Oct 26, 2017
656
There would be no need for a mid gen upgrade to get 60fps if devs would develop with 60fps in mind. But developers are always going to prefer to push the envelope in terms of graphics, even when that increased fidelity is barely noticeable and will sacrifice FPS to achieve it.

You think they won't do the same with a PS5 Pro? Give it a little time and you'll be back with sub 60 as they use the increased power to push more accurate shadows or whatever. Then people will complain and that Performance or Fidelity option will return.

I doubt the PS6 will be any different
 

slrBomber

Member
Jun 21, 2024
78
It sinks in very quickly and easily, thats very obvious and It wont be as big as the change from NES to PS3

I should have added more images for comparison if your thought was "yes thats a big enough jump in 18 years"

18 years before that shot? It was this
iu
Yes as well we dont know what advancements in AI hardware acceleration will bring about. The changes we saw over the time period you're talking about was due to advancements in accelerators for graphics(GPUs). We are no where near photorealism in runtime. Still need more investments in improving hardware in that regard. As well advancements in terms of software development that make it easier and cheaper to build advanced games.
 

Lashley

<<Tag Here>>
Member
Oct 25, 2017
62,802
I thought Rebirths performance mode was crap, so I played in fidelity mode.

Sure, 60 FPS are nice. But the thought of being supposed to shell out 920€ for... 30 FPS more for games like Rebirth is laughable. That's not an attractive offer.

The PS4 Pro replaced the price point of the original PS4 at 399$. And did so coming in with support for highly desired and noticeable new features like 4K and HDR.

The PS5 Pro isn't even a tiny bit as attractive as that.
I'm not defending the PS5 Pro, merely stating that when people criticize current gen graphics on consoles it's games like rebirth they mean and not God of War.
 

Blackbird

Unshakable Resolve - Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,423
Brazil
i haven't "wowed" or whatever that means from a game's fidelity since Demon's Souls this gen.

in fact, DS might be the only title that did it.

besides that, 4K, way more frequent, solid 60FPS and instant loading speeds are the few improvements i actually felt since PS4.

it's more than enough for $500, but not nearly as much jumping into $700.
 
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M-M

Member
Oct 27, 2017
195
There's still a bit more advancement we can make with regards to photorealism from compute power, like through path tracing for example, or better iq/framerates for VR. However, I think we've already long since hit the point where budgets are more of a limiting factor than just the power of most people's hardware. I feel like it doesn't make sense most of the time to spend the money building something that's only possible on enthusiast hardware instead of going for something scalable that can still impress in terms of polish, animations, etc.
 

slrBomber

Member
Jun 21, 2024
78
There would be no need for a mid gen upgrade to get 60fps if devs would develop with 60fps in mind. But developers are always going to prefer to push the envelope in terms of graphics, even when that increased fidelity is barely noticeable and will sacrifice FPS to achieve it.

You think they won't do the same with a PS5 Pro? Give it a little time and you'll be back with sub 60 as they use the increased power to push more accurate shadows or whatever. Then people will complain and that Performance or Fidelity option will return.

I doubt the PS6 will be any different
With the architecture of the pro you have additional large hw accelerators for RT and upscaling. You can get higher fps while improving the graphical fidelity. The 30 fps will remain the target for the base machine. And on the pro you can hit 60 fps but with the same or even better image quality.