You cant derail it it if there was no rail, they were doing these movies because they spent a fortune acquiring Lucasfilms not because they had a great story they were passionate about.
J.J. Abrams Says Rian Johnson ‘Didn’t Derail’ the ‘Star Wars’ Story in ‘Last Jedi’
- Thread starter ManaByte
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They were literally never going to be as high as TFA. This is literal concern trolling.
People keep saying this and it's not analogous. Sheev/The Emeperor was just an established entity and we didn't know the history of the Galaxy before so it was alright. Smoke just appearing out of nowhere is jarring because we know the state of the Galaxy 30 years ago and decades before that and he's not mentioned or alluded to at all. I'm not saying this should focus on his origins, because like you said, that isn't crucial to the story being told, but he can't be compared to The Emperor
He doesn't need to be an established entity, there were literally other people in lore who were force sensitives with the darkside while Palpatine was around. Hell they weren't even sith. Where Snoke came from is a story that can be told much better outside of the immediate events of the films instead of trying to force the plot point into these films to characters who genuinely don't care.
I have this bad feeling that they will try some redemption arc with him in the next movie which I feel would not be earned. If we go the whole trilogy and he is just an evil shithead who dies an evil shithead then fine. I would still rather have a character that had more depth, I feel they left huge room for drama where we the audience could have connected to who Ben was through the OT characters but that's mostly glossed over. Let's go back to Han's death scene, that moment when he reaches out and touches Ben's face right before he falls is beautiful, he still loves his son. But could it have been better if we just knew a little more about their relationship, if we knew anything about who Ben was before all this, I think so.
With Luke in the OT we follow his entire journey from start to finish, every emotional moment is tied to something established during the story of the movie. With kylo all his crying about his parents, all his angst is all a black hole of storytelling where we just fill in a few pieces through quick lines of dialogue and flashbacks that I feel still don't give us a picture of who he is. If the story is not about that then stop trying to show us. Which leads back to my point that I think this story is trying to be two things at once and not focusing on being the best story it can be.
I think that legitimately a lot of people don't get this. People have been spoiled by 40 years of books, comics, fan theories, etc. Imagine if we had never gotten a single piece of information about Star Wars other than the movies. No games, books, etc. We wouldn't know anything about a tonne of backstory that we have built for Luke and company. We'd know nothing about the Jedi vs Sith, Mandalorians, period between PT and OT, etc.
I think that because we've grow used to this, many fans believe they are entitled to it in order to like the new movies. It's bad.
Because you can see the future.
More and more people will come to see the flaws of the trilogy (including TFA and TLJ) once IX comes out, just like with GoT.
I like how Solo's failure is now a direct result of TLJ's "box office failure" (because in this reality making money hand over fist apparently is a failure) and not because...you know...fucking no one wanted to see a Solo movie. Like, I obsess over a lot of Star Wars stuff. I have everything made in the new EU...and I didn't even bother watching Solo because again, who the hell wanted to see that in the beginning?
By all accounts of what we were told, Ben was always a troubled kid, all of the classic OT members are regretful that they didn't do more to help him overcome his pull to the darkside.
The thing is that Kylo is who he is, he didn't suddenly become a different person when he became Kylo Ren, he's still that troubled kid who's lashing out at everything.
Exactly. Like lore and shit is my jam too but not at the expense of the script. Even the specific amount of time that passes between each OT film is never mentioned. People try to praise the world building of the prequels but forget the part where the scripts of those films were ass partly due to all the exposition that could've been spent on actual characterization.
Game of Thrones receptions goes as, the first four were amazing, five wasn't as good, six and seven were great, and that 8 was rushed. That didn't change after GoT finished. As most people straight up moved on and continued on with their lives instead of say, getting angry that D&D didn't attend a comic con panel to "pay."
Eh, to be fair, 6 and 7 are more contested (though admittedly I refused to watch GOT after season 5's Sansa rape shock scene)
It absolutely did. So many people re-evaluated seasons 6 and 7 in particular after the show came to an end. I'd recommend Lindsay Ellis's two-part video essay on GoT if you haven't watched it.
I'm talking about general audiences and critics reception, Going from "omg amazing" to "yea this is great" does indicate a drop in quality.
Uh nooo, most people moved on with their lives. That "so many people" you are talking about were the people cosntantly obsessing and criticizing regardless throughout the show's runtime. ANd honestly, it's really weird to be weirdly waiting to feel validated, "People will come around and dislike these films you'll see." It's really ridiculous and indicative of how toxic fandom can be.
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Ummm he kinda have to say it. You dont talk bad about your teammates to press if he cost you the game.
Hearing someone else's complaints about a piece of media I enjoy doesn't ruin anything for me. Sorry if other people disagreeing with you ruins whatever it is you care about for you.
You know full damn well the lengths certain people will go to bash TLJ, up to and including harassment of the actors and actresses for daring to be a part of it. Or when they overtake every goddamn Star Wars topic screaming about how TLJ sucks no matter how unrelated it is to the subject at hand.
Equating "critically thinking and re-evaluating a piece of media" to not being able to move on with one's life is hilarious.
You don't think that it would help the story for the audience to feel some empathy toward this character? I feel a tragic figure is more interesting than just an annoying bad one. If they really were going for the he's so bad you will love him being bad why spend so much time on his inner struggle.
Kylo is not analogous to Darth Vader, Vader was very much the villain who served the hero's journey. Kylo is actually a co lead in these movies, the story is about Rey AND Kylo, Kylo's story is not there just to serve Rey. For all we know it might be the opposite, Rey might be serving Kylos story. This is why when you all bring up "hey we don't know anything about vader" it's a terrible analogy, they are not in the same role.
I would just love to care about Ben Solo, that's the heart of these movies, caring about the characters in them. They got me with Rey, but I feel nothing but hate toward Kylo Ren, the only time I feel other emotions it's when the characters I grew up loving feel something for their son, it's just a superficial this is my blood so I need to care kind of thing. If I did care about this character I feel all the moments so far would be enhanced emotionally and I would be very much invested in some thrilling conclusion where I feel any outcome could be earned. As it is now I feel the only satisfying conclusion is for him to die a villain and that's rather simplistic.
These kinds of posts are wrongheaded and completely ignorant of how these movies have been made, and the passion that's gone into making them.
These aren't marvel movies or princess films. LUCASFILM has all of the creative control and say.
This is no passion in Solo, ZERO. There's a reason that film bombed so hard it scared the shit of Disney and made them re-evaluate their entire franchise direction.
Having recently seen the originals, this sequel Trilogy is such a disappointment.
The prequels have serious issues, but they were original. Unless 9 is amazing, the sequels are bottom tier for me.
The prequels have serious issues, but they were original. Unless 9 is amazing, the sequels are bottom tier for me.
Ok, do people seriously think movies are made entirely pre-planned in advanced and that the directing, acting, shooting process is just a formality? Because no movie survives fully intact from the planning phase. And this "well they should just have planned the entire thing out in advanced" goes against not only movie-making, but general fiction creation.
He is already perceived as a tragic figure. Just because you personally disagree doesn't mean that the consensus on him doesn't exist. In fact, he's SO empathic that a large portion of critics straight up say Rey should've joined him and become a space nazi herself. 👀
There are many many many people on this forum that don't have a single idea what it's like to work on a film. Even a short film. It's especially baffling considering the subject matter is SW, which had major rewrites and edits.
Certain people, sure. Not all "the people who dislike" TLJ. I've seen many others be consistent in their criticisms of TLJ for things other than perceived racial/gender/casting issues. The movie has flaws and people pointing them out are not automatically trying to ruin anyone's enjoyment of anything.
What am I spinning? Honestly
You literally cannot compare the weekend drops as those films (bar solo) came out in the holidays. With the days xmas/boxing day/new years eve etc fell on really screws with comparing
Sure fair enough you point out that TLJ had a huge drop in terms of box office. Had it been less divisive it would've maybe made 1.5 Billion but frankly a huge drop was going to come. Fact is TFA was a major event. Like TPM and ANH. Both AOTC and ESB had huge drops too which are comparable to TLJ's drop.
The box office pattern that Star Wars films follow can't be compared to Avengers.
Again I do agree TLJ's eventual divisive quality and lack of a feel good tone did shrink its box office...but only by $200 million or so I reckon.
Prequel marathon is on TV right now ..... gah damn they are horrible.
They're just full on cartoons, more cartoony than the actual Star Wars CG cartoon series, lol. Like I'm trying to take Revenge of the Sith (the "good one") seriously and there's so much dumb goofball cartoon shit in it. Like General Grevious ... is this supposed to be a character? Guy is a full on cartoon. You can't even take this seriously at all, and Obi-Wan running around on a dinosaur and General Goofball on a spiner cycle .... Ugh.
The sequel trilogy suffers mostly from a lack of planning I think, they had to rush TFA into development to start making a return on the investment Disney made and then TLJ they wanted two years after TFA, so it had to begin writing/production even before TFA release.
But tonally I find the sequel trilogy at least feels like the original trilogy, just not as well executed in story. But the prequels just feel like a fucking cartoon by comparison to both.
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I said something similar to this in the other topic.
With how much story they are seemingly trying to fit in this last film that explains not only the events of the last two films but also the whole saga. As the in between film that takes place only within a few days of the last, and as a whole doesn't really move events forward in the grand scheme of things, I feel TLJ is going to feel a bit a filler film that makes it more obvious that they had no overarching story across the sequel trilogy.
I don't think it derailed anything, but TFA put a lot of questions out there, TLJ answered some of those questions, and now TRoS from the sound of things is going to seemingly answer them again.
I would say though as a whole the world building in this new trilogy has been absolutely awful, the reliance on expanded universe media has been terrible choice, and is probably what I would consider to be the biggest let down of this trilogy.
With how much story they are seemingly trying to fit in this last film that explains not only the events of the last two films but also the whole saga. As the in between film that takes place only within a few days of the last, and as a whole doesn't really move events forward in the grand scheme of things, I feel TLJ is going to feel a bit a filler film that makes it more obvious that they had no overarching story across the sequel trilogy.
I don't think it derailed anything, but TFA put a lot of questions out there, TLJ answered some of those questions, and now TRoS from the sound of things is going to seemingly answer them again.
I would say though as a whole the world building in this new trilogy has been absolutely awful, the reliance on expanded universe media has been terrible choice, and is probably what I would consider to be the biggest let down of this trilogy.
I would love to see Rey and Snoke revealed to be clones of Sheev. I feel like TLJ set things up and left certain plot points open so it makes sense. Both Rey and Kylo could have redemption arcs with Rey making a sacrifice move to destroy Sheev. Kylo reaches out to her in TLJ and wanted her to join him. Kylo is already an enemy of the Sith by telling Rey to let the past die including the Jedi and Sith so I wouldn't be surprised to see a Rey/Kylo alliance to take down the Emperor and finally bring 'order' to the galaxy.
It's like he watched pulp fiction and completely missunderstood the point of a maguffin.....and then made the maguffin the central point of a story.....but then it's not a maguffin...and it's also never resolved and so unsatisfying
Guys, I think WE'RE the mystery box
They all just sort of ended up right where they were. Rey is now super good. Kylo is now super bad. Finn is now all in on being part of the resistance, ok. No one is captured, no one found out a truth that changes their entire view point. The movie ends with everyone is a very safe boring place.
Probably because it's pretty standard for sequels? There were less repeat viewings for Empire Strikes Back than for A New Hope, and less repeat viewings for Spider-Man 2 than for the first Spider-Man.
This is a non-story... if Abrams came out and declared that TLJ did derail the trilogy, that would likely have a material effect on box office receipts for ROS later this year, which is obviously a big no-no. He's just toeing the party line.
The biggest problem with the prequels is going from the greatest cinematic villain of all time to... Darth Maul, Count Dooku, General Grevious and DR Jekyl, Mr Hyde Palpatine.
The prequels should have started with the story beats of RotS and gone on from there. Instead George had to have his Podracing and "Begun the Clone Wars have" and the fucking bizarre love story that no one will ever care about because George Lucas wanted to make some point about romance and completely ignored actual romance in the process.
I mean apart from that they're fine.
Nothing good really happened in that movie. The good guys lost their base and spent the rest of the movie failing to run away with no light speed. Meanwhile Jedi "training" that doesn't show any realistic progression in skill. The wrong character got romanced. Just when you think they can actually accomplish something they get betrayed out of nowhere and it's like whelp guess they're just fucked this whole movie so much for heroic victories that Star Wars is known for. To salt the wound they give us a totally unbelievable twist revealing a characters family identity and it's just like are you fucking serious that is so dumb.
It's a fact, Empire Strikes Back is a terrible movie. Especially a terrible Star Wars movie. I just hope Return of the Jedi fixes this complete disastrous mess.
It's a fact, Empire Strikes Back is a terrible movie. Especially a terrible Star Wars movie. I just hope Return of the Jedi fixes this complete disastrous mess.
How is Luke so competent with the saber when he was never trained by a Jedi to use it? Ugh Gary Stu
Well he did get trained for about a minute, so that's realistic. But obiwan never even told him force pull was a thing so him doing that is just dumb OP Mary Sue shit.
No, that's the correct way to view the Disney era. It's Star Wars GT.
I wasn't talking about Sheev's personal backstory or place in the galaxy as it compares to just Snoke, what I said was we didn't know how he turned Vader and everything to do with Anakin's fall. I'm talking about that relationship and of course Snoke/Ren is a copy of it. The story of the prequels gives greater context to Vader's actions with the goal being to greatly enhance that final confrontation now that we know everything.
I actually happen to agree that Snoke inherently invites mystery and questions in a way Sheev did not but even still I don't think you could do his and Ren's relationship justice by giving you a cliffsnotes version of it in the middle of a movie strung for time. That is why I feel his backstory is a part of the overall story that should be told like the prequels. Just like the OT we're arriving in the middle after everything has gone to shit.
Snoke's story is a casualty of JJ really really wanting everything to feel like the OT again. Now if I'm talking about JUST Snoke sure they could have thrown in a line like "As you know Ren I was a Plageuis apprentice who failed to kill him and escaped to bide time and plan revenge in the unknown regions. With Sheev, Vader, and Plagueis dead we shall spit on their graves by conquering the galaxy not as Sith to do what they couldn't.(actually hold the galaxy for good)"
What I'm saying is blame JJ.
Nah ... I'm watching even RoTS which is supposed to be "good" ... this movie is a pile of shit, lol.
The tone to begin with is entirely wrong, these feel more cartoony than the Clone Wars *cartoons*. General Grevious is more evil and intimidating in the freaking Gendy Tarkavosky *cartoons*. Everything is sooooooo cartoony, it feels like nothing the other Star Wars movies which have at least a gritty, "lived in" tone. Characters honestly feel like they're from a Saturday morning cartoon like Ninja Turtles or something.
None of the dialogue scenes in three full movies (*three movies*) comes off as competent acting except for the one scene in opera house where Ian McDiarmid gets to talk and Anakin shuts up for most of it.
The love story is kind of key to the whole damn story too, you can't just brush that aside, it's the whole reason Anakin Skywalker falls to the dark side, lol. These two are the worst couple in any modern major blockbuster, it's embarrassing. Natalie Portman in particular looks like she has no idea what the fuck is going on, Sam Jackson looks like he was given direction to look bored at all times.
The creative choices in the prequels are honestly so bizarre, it's like someone thinking nacho cheese mixed with fruit salad would make a tasty meal or something.
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How Snoke "turned" Ben Solo *really* isn't that compelling. Luke Skywalker fearing what Kylo could become, how that would upend the future Luke fought so hard to secure and then contemplating putting an end to that before it ever happened and that fear cementing the very future he sought to prevent is a lot more interesting!
IMO some things are better left for audiences to connect the dots themselves. If you're picking up on context clues/dialogue/visual storytelling in the trilogy, you can reasonably draw your own conclusions as to why Ben turned.
I mean I totally agree. Maybe my reply didn't communicate that. Poe's law and all that.
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