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Red Arremer

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
12,259
Also, another thing to consider is that bisexual is a term that is commonly known and understood by the majority of people, even ones that aren't exactly aware of the nuances of gender identity and sexuality, which is one of the reasons people stick to the term.
 

Nothing Loud

Literally Cinderella
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,987
How so? I'm acknowledging that they were born one gender and transitioned into another. To deny that and say they are exactly the same is a greater disservice in my opinion because it doesn't acknowledge the transition and the struggles that come with it.

See what I mean about how infighting over definitions is stupid? We both support the same thing 100% and we're fighting because of definitions that have no universal agreement.

As I understand it, you're not born into a gender. You're born into a sex.
 

gfxtwin

Use of alt account
Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,159
I stated this earlier, but more bisexual people (such as myself) use the definition of the 'bi' (the two) as being attracted to your own gender and being attracted to other genders.
If gender identity is not a factor, then where is the difference?
Pansexuality is a synonym, but since many people try to make it into something more inclusive than bisexuality, i often dislike the term.
If you're attracted to either sex, then that includes everyone but intersex people right? How does that exclude trans people? Your definition doesn't really make sense

I guess the definition has changed since I was in college a few years ago. Yeah, I was actually thinking of intersex as well, just didn't type it. In our gender and sex classes we learned that there was a distinction to be made between bisexual and pansexual. Bisexual was mostly an attraction to male and female sexes, gay or straight, while pansexuality was a possible attraction to any sex and gender.

So now pan and bi are considered synonymous?

I think that, especially when it comes to sexuality, people should just use whatever term they are comfortable with. Sexuality is such a fluid kind of thing that making rigid categorizations doesn't really work all that well, anyway. Bisexuality doesn't necessarily exclude certain genders, but it also doesn't necessarily mean that it's identical to pansexuality. It's a very malleable term, just like sexuality as a whole is.

Agreed, at the end of the day it's only a label and words/descriptions can be used however you want and using a term in a different way than you think it's intended is like whatever. Might be a bit confusing for someone who doesn't know you personally, but a quick explanation tends to remedy that!
 
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Westbahnhof

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
10,108
Austria
How so? I'm acknowledging that they were born one gender and transitioned into another. To deny that and say they are exactly the same is a greater disservice in my opinion because it doesn't acknowledge the transition and the struggles that come with it.

See what I mean about how infighting over definitions is stupid? We both support the same thing 100% and we're fighting because of definitions that have no universal agreement.
The few trans people I personally know want to be called women. They are women, and I feel calling them women* is offensive.
I especially feel that trying to redefine bisexuality as something limited to cis attraction is biphobic.
I know a woman who is bi and dates a trans women. Don't try to tell her she is not bi.

I guess the definition has changed since I was in college a few years ago. Yeah, I was actually thinking of intersex as well, just didn't type it. In our gender and sex classes we learned that there was a distinction to be made between bisexual and pansexual. Bisexual was mostly an attraction to male and female sexes, gay or straight, while pansexuality was a possible attraction to any sex and gender.


So now pan and bi are considered synonymous?
Basically. As far as I can tell, bi people often find pan to be a problematic separation of things that should not be separated, and pan people feel bi is exclusionary.
 

Nothing Loud

Literally Cinderella
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,987
What do you mean? Where do you think gender identity comes from?

I guess I said it wrong. I mean that you're born into your sex but the gender you identify with may or may not be associated with the sex you're born into.

Please consider what you are saying.
This sounds like you haven't thought it through.
What are bisexuals not attracted to, in your opinion?


Look. You said it yourself: People are attracted to certain things. Not all things.
You make it sound like sexual identity means you need to like everyone who falls in the category you describe yourself attracted to. Like pansexuals literally find EVERYONE attractive. Like hetero women find all men attractive.
This is not the case. It's just categorization. You want to make too many splits.

What I mean is that I thought pansexuals would never be UNattracted to someone for sex or gender reasons. That doesn't mean they're attracted to any and everyone, it just means that someone's sex or gender combination on the spectrum is not an inhibitor.

However, I identify as bisexual and for me I am NOT attracted to all categories of sex and gender. Just two. There are zero cases of attraction for me to people who are gender fluid or intersex or incompletely transitioned, so it inhibits my ability to be attracted to anyone on the spectrum.
 

Snowybreak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,329
Honestly, I call myself bisexual, but I'm effectively pansexual. I really don't care what your gender/sex might be, as long as you have a great personality.
 

TheIlliterati

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,782
Pansexuality, on the other hand, means you're not really attracted to people based on their gender, but other aspects. Personality, looks, and so on.
Honest question about a scenario to see if I'm understanding this right: Could you be a pan straight or pan gay cis person(?) attracted to someone because they are funny, nice eyes, good laugh, etc. And they also happen to be your same or opposite gender, which is immaterial to your attraction? Or does pan basically infer bi? Sorry if this is confusingly worded, I tried to write it clearly. I am having trouble understanding attraction not based on gender.
 

Westbahnhof

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
10,108
Austria
I guess I said it wrong. I mean that you're born into your sex but the gender you identify with may or may not be associated with the sex you're born into.



What I mean is that I thought pansexuals would never be UNattracted to someone for sex or gender reasons. That doesn't mean they're attracted to any and everyone, it just means that someone's sex or gender combination on the spectrum is not an inhibitor.

However, I identify as bisexual and for me I am NOT attracted to all categories of sex and gender. Just two. There are zero cases of attraction for me to people who are gender fluid or intersex or incompletely transitioned, so it inhibits my ability to be attracted to anyone on the spectrum.
This is how it is I guess, according to the definition from a pan perspective.
It will not apply to many bi people though, who do not make this distinction and still simply identify as bi.

Honest question about a scenario to see if I'm understanding this right: Could you be a pan straight or pan gay cis person(?) attracted to someone because they are funny, nice eyes, good laugh, etc. And they also happen to be your same or opposite gender, which is immaterial to your attraction? Or does pan basically infer bi? Sorry if this is confusingly worded, I tried to write it clearly. I am having trouble understanding attraction not based on gender.
Its actually often the same thing to be pan and bi. The main difference is how they feel sexuality/gender should be defined.
 

spunodi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
571
I am bi. Technically I'm a heteroromantic pansexual but if I introduce myself as that I'll never get laid. Not everyone follows identity politics.
 

Beartruck

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,939
The few trans people I personally know want to be called women. They are women, and I feel calling them women* is offensive.
I especially feel that trying to redefine bisexuality as something limited to cis attraction is biphobic.
I know a woman who is bi and dates a trans women. Don't try to tell her she is not bi.
Whatever someone wants to be called I'm OK with because as I said, not everyone agrees on the definition and it's better to just ask.
 

Daschiel

Member
Oct 28, 2017
754
So this is my understanding (explained to me from one of my best friends that is bisexual) Bisexual : you like men and women, exactly as the word root states Bi: both. As for Pan, I think her explanation was *anything goes*, as in transexuals, post/pre op etc. I'm not trying to offend anyone by posting this, like others that may just be lurking here, I'm trying to understand it better as well.
 

Almawtaa

Member
Oct 29, 2017
309
If someone were attracted to cis gendered men and women, that sounds like it would comfortably be labelled as bisexual
 

Ketkat

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
So this is my understanding (explained to me from one of my best friends that is bisexual) Bisexual : you like men and women, exactly as the word root states Bi: both. As for Pan, I think her explanation was *anything goes*, as in transexuals, post/pre op etc. I'm not trying to offend anyone by posting this, like others that may just be lurking here, I'm trying to understand it better as well.

If you're into men and women, then saying trans people don't count doesn't make sense.
 

echoshifting

very salt heavy
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
14,758
The Negative Zone
It always seems to me that confusion on this topic results from the assumption that the term "bisexual" is meant to address the gender paradigm. Personally, I have never held this to be the case; it's a challenge to the hetero/homo sexuality binary. I have also heard "my gender + other genders" as a good modern definition.

For me "bisexual" is still a very important and personal term.
 

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
As a pansexual I look at it like this.

Bisexual means you're attracted to two or more genders. Hence bi. Could be male and female, could be nb and male, nb and female, or specific kinds of nb. Or all of the above. However you're attracted to those people in part because of their gender. There are people who stop being attracted to someone the moment they realize they're not the gender they thought they were, for instance. And that's okay. (Note I'm not saying that, say, a straight guy being grossed out at being with a trans woman is okay, it's not; nor is someone specifically seeking out someone for their transness; that's transphobia, but I'm assuming we're not talking about that, as we're talking solely about gender and not genitalia-at-birth.)

Pansexuality, on the other hand, means you're not really attracted to people based on their gender, but other aspects. Personality, looks, and so on.

There are certainly some pansexuals who try to use their sexuality as a label to seem more "woke", as it were, and act like bisexuals aren't, and that's bad. But I don't think it's accurate to say pansexuality is just a synonym for bisexuality. It's two different types of attraction, albeit, closely related.

Yeah this is how i see things as well. Someone's gender really has no bearing on whether i'm attracted to them. Pansexuality evokes an entire spectrum for me, although in practice i guess the difference between these two labels isn't very substantial.
 

Almawtaa

Member
Oct 29, 2017
309
If you're into men and women, then saying trans people don't count doesn't make sense.

Well this is complicated because some people are... Particular about the genitalia that they are attracted too. If they want to be clear and upfront about that, what's the solution? Cis-bi, cis-straight etc?
 

Westbahnhof

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
10,108
Austria
Well this is complicated because some people are... Particular about the genetalia that they are attracted too. If they want to be clear and upfront about that, what's the solution? Cis-bi, cis-straight etc?
To me, this is like being very specific about your potential partners height. Nothing worth including in your identity.
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,435
I hought Pan meant there is no preference in any combination of gender AND sexual orietation, of which there are several. In truth, I always took the use of the word pan to be more of an insight philosophically in that the person holds no bigotry toward trans. We know gay people can and do hate trans persons.
 

Orio

Member
Oct 27, 2017
241
I grew up in a time and place where bi was the only term used to describe attraction to more than one gender, so I guess for me it's more of a comfort thing than anything. I tried on pan once but it didn't feel right, even though gender isn't something I care about when choosing a partner. Hell it took me awhile to be accepting of the term "bi" just because attempting to label how I felt kinda freaked me out. So I guess my thoughts on this is that labels like this are tough to define when they also denote an acceptance into a specific cultural group of people as well.

For example I know of people who consider themselves lesbians despite being married to a guy who they love and are attracted to. Primarily because the man they married was the only man in existence they've ever felt attracted to, so bi or pan didn't feel right, and lesbian was such a deep part of their identity/culture they couldn't define themselves as anything else. A lot of people fight back against those people of course, but I think it's fair. Labels are tough.
 

Eumi

Member
Nov 3, 2017
3,518
Well this is complicated because some people are... Particular about the genitalia that they are attracted too. If they want to be clear and upfront about that, what's the solution? Cis-bi, cis-straight etc?
The solution is just saying you aren't attracted to trans people if it ever comes up. There's very little need to throw that fact into your sexual-identity and just further exclude trans people.
 
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Westbahnhof

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
10,108
Austria
The solution is just saying you aren't attracted to trans people if it ever comes up. There's very little need to throw that fact into your gender-identity and just further exclude trans people.
You mean sexual identity I think?
Anyway, I agree. It's reminds me of those "no fat chicks" shirts.. There is no reason to loudly exclude what you aren't attracted to.
 

TheCthultist

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,450
New York
I grew up in a time and place where bi was the only term used to describe attraction to more than one gender, so I guess for me it's more of a comfort thing than anything.
Yeah, that's pretty much it for me too. I'm pan, but its so much easier to just say that your bi when it comes up because people already have a working knowledge of what that entails. Way easier than trying to explain the difference.
 

Astral

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
28,115
As a pansexual I look at it like this.

Bisexual means you're attracted to two or more genders. Hence bi. Could be male and female, could be nb and male, nb and female, or specific kinds of nb. Or all of the above. However you're attracted to those people in part because of their gender. There are people who stop being attracted to someone the moment they realize they're not the gender they thought they were, for instance. And that's okay. (Note I'm not saying that, say, a straight guy being grossed out at being with a trans woman is okay, it's not; nor is someone specifically seeking out someone for their transness; that's transphobia, but I'm assuming we're not talking about that, as we're talking solely about gender and not genitalia-at-birth.)

Pansexuality, on the other hand, means you're not really attracted to people based on their gender, but other aspects. Personality, looks, and so on.

There are certainly some pansexuals who try to use their sexuality as a label to seem more "woke", as it were, and act like bisexuals aren't, and that's bad. But I don't think it's accurate to say pansexuality is just a synonym for bisexuality. It's two different types of attraction, albeit, closely related.

This is how I've always seen it. A bi person might say "I like men and women." A pan person might not refer to them as men or women, but people instead. Who knows though. The two are still pretty confusing to me.
 

TickleMeElbow

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,668
I've always thought bi sexual was someone who's sexually attracted to both sexes, like Andy Dick for example. Someone who's attracted to men with dicks and women with vaginas, but not attracted to men with vaginas or women with dicks. Meanwhile for pan sexual people, that doesn't really matter as much.
 

CrocM

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,633
I've always thought bi sexual was someone who's sexually attracted to both sexes, like Andy Dick for example. Someone who's attracted to men with dicks and women with vaginas, but not attracted to men with vaginas or women with dicks. Meanwhile for pan sexual people, that doesn't really matter as much.
This doesn't make much sense to me.
 

Ketkat

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
I've always thought bi sexual was someone who's sexually attracted to both sexes, like Andy Dick for example. Someone who's attracted to men with dicks and women with vaginas, but not attracted to men with vaginas or women with dicks. Meanwhile for pan sexual people, that doesn't really matter as much.

Personally, this makes zero sense to me. How do you justify being attracted to men and women, but not being attracted to trans people? What about those being okay on cis people is somehow more acceptable? What's the reasoning besides transphobia?
 

ldcommando

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,480
User Banned (1 Week): Trolling and denying sexual identities
One is a real thing, the other is tumblr speak.
 

Littlefang

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15
I'm bi and I identify as liking men and women (including trans men and women). Pan to me is not having a preference for gender at all so I don't really identify as pan. I do know that some people identify as pan to indicate that they are accepting of trans people as well. But personally I feel like I can just say that to the people that my sexuality is at all relevant to.
 

AlexMeloche

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,746
Always considered bi people to be attracted to men and women (both cis and trans), and pan to be attracted to men, women, and everything inbetween (non-binary).
 

TickleMeElbow

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,668
This doesn't make much sense to me.

Personally, this makes zero sense to me. How do you justify being attracted to men and women, but not being attracted to trans people? What about those being okay on cis people is somehow more acceptable? What's the reasoning besides transphobia?

Because they are attracted to women with female sexual organs, and men with male sexual organs. I might be wrong, but that was just my assumption based on interacting with people who claimed bi.
 

Tuorom

Member
Oct 30, 2017
10,920
My understanding is that because this is a relatively "new" social acceptance, Bi had previously been for liking both men and women, and Pan was liking everyone regardless. Now, perspectives are adjusting and evolving. So I can understand when Westbahnhof is getting irritated at people considering trans people as an "other", when they are just men and women. So I guess what I am saying is that Bi and Pan mean basically the same thing now. They are both attracted to men and women, and that Pan was used back in the day to include trans because people didn't know how to accept them, that they thought it was not "normal", that it was an "other".
Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't really know this subject that well.
 

Melody Shreds

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,587
Terminal Dogma
This is possibly a bit awkward for me as I'm not exactly "out" as it were, but fuck it.
As a bisexual I personally define the term as; My own gender as well as all other genders.
I don't know know anyone who is openly pan and if I do and am just unaware of their sexuality they haven't spoken about this so I have nothing to add there.
 

dreams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,799
Because they are attracted to women with female sexual organs, and men with male sexual organs. I might be wrong, but that was just my assumption based on interacting with people who claimed bi.
This honestly just sounds like transphobia to me. If you're attracted to any set of sexual organs, then surely it shouldn't matter. This is like mental gymnastics to justify being transphobic.
 

blame space

Resettlement Advisor
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,420
yes, there is a difference. you're being ignorant.

(there's not a difference.)
 

Miracle Ache

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,207
Bi is being attracted to the binary identities of man and woman (which includes trans men and women, of course). Pan is being attracted to binary and non-binary identities.

It's really not that hard.
 

TickleMeElbow

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,668
This honestly just sounds like transphobia to me. If you're attracted to any set of sexual organs, then surely it shouldn't matter. This is like mental gymnastics to justify being transphobic.

A lot of gay dudes are super into dicks. I'd imagine a lot of the appeal is that the dick is attached to a man. So if a man had a vagina instead of a dick, a lot of them wouldn't be into it.

On the other hand, a lot of straight dudes are really into vaginas. Much of the appeal of vaginas is that they're attached to women. So if a woman had a dick instead of a vagina, a lot of straight men wouldn't be into it.

Then you have a bi dude who's attracted to men with dicks in the same way that a lot of gay men are attracted to men, but he's also attracted to women with vaginas in the same way a lot of straight men are attracted to women. I don't see how that alone makes the person transphobic.
 

Sai

Prophet of Truth
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,629
Chicago
Look at the word roots. Bi being "OK with all genders" is an incorrect definition. The root of the word is BI, as in two. So, you're down for men and women, but stuff with Trans? Maybe not. Pan means everybody because that's what Pan means.

Trans men and women are men and women.

It's a TERF-y obfuscation. Some people will identify as pan and simply queer to make their openness more known, but it's pretty much all the same thing.
 

Zyaghini

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
59
I've always thought of bi and pan as both describing attraction towards the same overall group of people, but that the way that attraction is experienced differs between the two.

Bi people can become attracted to anyone, but the specific reason for that attraction might differ based on the gender of the other person. In effect, bi people can become attracted to men, women, and people of various non-binary identities, but they may experience attraction towards women for X reason, men for Y reason, and people of non-binary identities for Z reason.

Whereas, pan people can also become attracted to anyone, but the gender of the other person has nothing to do with that attraction (hence "attraction regardless of gender"). Pan people simply find X reason attractive in other people regardless of the gender of the other person.

That's how I've always separated them in my mind.
 
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Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
This just makes no sense to me.
Do you think bisexual people are actually attracted to certain genders rather than looks, personality, etc?
From your own definition, every bi person I've ever talked to was pan.
Yes, I do. Not all, though, and a lot of bisexual people are functionally no different from pansexual people. But, I've seen a lot of girls say they only like masculine men and that feminine men don't interest them, yet at the same time like feminine women. Which, you know, is absolutely fine. Same with bi guys who, say, maybe only are into tomboys but not more feminine women. But for pansexual people, whether someone is a girl, boy, or otherwise makes no difference. They might have a type, but that type carries across all genders.

Honest question about a scenario to see if I'm understanding this right: Could you be a pan straight or pan gay cis person(?) attracted to someone because they are funny, nice eyes, good laugh, etc. And they also happen to be your same or opposite gender, which is immaterial to your attraction? Or does pan basically infer bi? Sorry if this is confusingly worded, I tried to write it clearly. I am having trouble understanding attraction not based on gender.
If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying what if, say, a man who always thought he was straight found he is attracted to another guy because he found the other man attractive for some reason or anothr?

I mean, I'm not sure. People apply labels to themselves and they have their reasons for doing so. I'd personally say he's not straight at all then, he just hasn't seen many men he's attracted to before. But in any case, you cannot be straight and pansexual, or homosexual and pansexual.

There is a term used for people who solely have sexual feelings for those they have a relationship with- demisexual- but I've rarely seen it used.

Always considered bi people to be attracted to men and women (both cis and trans), and pan to be attracted to men, women, and everything inbetween (non-binary).
That's previously how I understood it and why I first labeled myself as such, but I've come to find some bi people might not like one of the two 'typical' binary genders, while they do like people of nonbinary genders. But then I saw people using the definition I gave earlier, which is pretty much how I felt anyway, so!

Yeah this is how i see things as well. Someone's gender really has no bearing on whether i'm attracted to them. Pansexuality evokes an entire spectrum for me, although in practice i guess the difference between these two labels isn't very substantial.
Yeah, in practice, there's often not much difference. But as I said earlier, some bi people do have preferences for how they like men to look which don't seem to match how they like women to look, and vice versa and so on. With me? If someone is cute, they're cute, and I'd think they were cute regardless of gender.
This is how I've always seen it. A bi person might say "I like men and women." A pan person might not refer to them as men or women, but people instead. Who knows though. The two are still pretty confusing to me.
Yeah, that's sort of it.
And, don't feel a need to learn everything about human sexuality. Just kinda accept what people consider themselves as long as they ain't hurting no one, and you're good. ' v'
 

Nerokis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,567
It seems to me to reflect, in part, a difference in emphasis. Pansexuality focuses on a stretch of the spectrum that bisexuality might focus on a bit less - for example, there's a meaningful difference between "all" and "more than one."

Honestly, how a lot of us relate to these labels comes down to a matter of emphasis. It's not unique to this pan vs. bi discussion.