Xenoblade 3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,972
New York City
I wish they would use union actors. I've been switching to JP dub in Nintendo games more often now because of the quality of their Eng dubs.
The VA in FE:A and KI:U are so much better than their recent games.
 

lactatingduck

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
666
I
So I was just made aware of this tweet that former Palutena voice actress Ali Hillis made:

What the? Aren't voice actor unions a good thing due to better working conditions/contracts?
I've heard that Breath of the Wild was also non-union. Seriously, is there a good reason for not using voice actor unions? Because if the only answer is money, this reflects really badly on Nintendo and makes me question why they put voice acting into the Zelda series (and making Palutena's Guidance voice acted) if they couldn't afford union rates.

Is it ethical? Depends on your perspective.

From a shareholder perspective it's unethical for Nintendo to NOT do everything they can to save some money and increase shareholder value.

I'm not sure from what perspective or school of thought it would be unethical to not use a union. A union may or may not be good but unions themselves aren't intrinsically good even the majority of them do good for people.

By what standard or philosophy is it unethical?
 
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crimsonECHIDNA

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,852
Gatorland
Is this true? I was under the impression that Japanese VAs are at the bottom in the totem pole of Japanese Entertaiment, to the point that lingerie models and pornstars get more respect than them in the Industry.

I mean it's one of those things too where you also gotta consider how fanatical "otaku culture" is, so as a side effect voice acting is treated with more "prestige" compared to an English Localization which is typically working under a more limited budget and timeframe for casting.
 

-shadow-

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,110
Anyone knows how NOE does it? They've done voice acting often enough, surely someone knows.
 
It's all dependent more on the voice direction of a production than the acting specifically. The actors in Other M weren't the problem, for example. It was the awkwardly localized English script and directives from the non-English speaking producer that hampered it. Compare that to a game like Fire Emblem Echoes or Xenoblade X that have much better English scripting and directing.
Incidentally, both of those games were localized by 8-4, who also have a big hand in the VO direction on the projects that they work on. Treehouse is a great localization outfit as far as text is concerned, but they simply don't have the same kind of experience with VO recording as their professional colleagues, so that can get fairly mixed in terms of results when they do have to worry about that stuff. Some of it is out of their hands, like you mentioned with Other M, but it's not hard to imagine what having a better director could have done for BOTW's cutscenes, as I don't think most people take issue with the cast.
 

jasius

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,181
This happens in all industries, construction especially, there are Union sites, there are non-union sites, this is the entire downfall of "WE NEED A UNION" for everything. Also when union comes into play, weird layoffs start, I've seen more than one Loblaws owned Dominion store get shut down or awful waves of 50+ full time workers laid off in lieu of "part timers" instantly hired which will work the same hours but not qualify for the union.
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
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Oct 27, 2017
35,527
No. Unions have nothing to do with ethics. A company is free to hire whomever is most beneficial for them.

Sucks, yeah. But one of the risks of joining a union is that said union can be shut out of contracts.
Unions are also not immune to self-inflicted wounds and incompetent leadership, either. Non-video game related, There was a situation years ago in Major League Baseball where the union representing the league's umpires attempted a negotiation tactic with the league by convincing all of the umpires to submit letters of resignation to the commissioner's office. Genius plan, right? Push the league with an ultimatum and bring them to the negotiating table. What could go wrong?

The commissioner accepted all of the resignations and they hired a bunch of new umpires from the minor leagues to replace them.
 

Kouriozan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,413
I'm not native English but even then, VA switching feel awful when you're used to one, especially after the amazing KI : Uprising,
 

bbq of doom

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,606
Non-union voice actors deserve to have roles and get paid as well. This is not unethical.

Everyone should get paid for their work. Access to unionization should be easier, because unions give you the most rights and the best wages.

It's unethical to prioritize any system that is pro corporation, which is exactly what deprioritizing unionization and union labor does.
 

erlim

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,544
London
As a card carrying member of sag-aftra, this blows. We rank and file guys get f*cked when any org goes to battle with our union (like the ad agencies)...That said, I love Nintendo too much to be mad at them. As much as it sucks, I'll support them whatever they do. Capcom did the same, didn't they?
 

Council Pop

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,328
Of course it's unethical. It opens a big ol' can of worms with the non-union folks, too. They just want to get paid, but by taking work outside of a union, they're snubbing the people who worked hard to be part of a union in the first place.

It's messy, it's unfortunate, and it's frustrating.

Yep, exactly. But scabs be scabs :/
 

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
86,120
Houston, TX
As a card carrying member of sag-aftra, this blows. We rank and file guys get f*cked when any org goes to battle with our union (like the ad agencies)...That said, I love Nintendo too much to be mad at them. As much as it sucks, I'll support them whatever they do. Capcom did the same, didn't they?
Division 2, specifically the fighting game side of things, usually unionizes their games. But Division 1 has gone non-union as of late.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
17,205
That is very very shitty.
Very disappointed in them.
If it's just NoA, I'm not surprised they really do suck.
 

Tavernade

Tavernade
Moderator
Sep 18, 2018
8,932
This is one of the few things that actually angers me about Nintendo. I can understand it for niche dubs, but Nintendo puts out so few of those nowadays there's really no reason to not go union.

It's definitely unethical, comparatively.
 

Josh5890

I'm Your Favorite Poster's Favorite Poster
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
23,971
As long as Nintendo is treating their employees/contracted workers well I have no problem with them using non-union workers. Its a free market, and they should be allowed to choose who they work with.
 

justiceiro

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
6,664
I guess it come to the fact that not all nintendo voice actor are unionized, and seems like some union don't let this mix of unionized and no unionized actors happens. I remenber hearing that a lot fo voice acting for star fox were done by the employees themselves, so not really professionals. And i think this extend to a lot of them.

This comes from that old podcast of the guy who got fired for showing up there. He even mentioned that some guy had to register as voice actor in a out of the state union or something to show up in a game, i think.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,918
Las Vegas
Unions are also not immune to self-inflicted wounds and incompetent leadership, either. Non-video game related, There was a situation years ago in Major League Baseball where the union representing the league's umpires attempted a negotiation tactic with the league by convincing all of the umpires to submit letters of resignation to the commissioner's office. Genius plan, right? Push the league with an ultimatum and bring them to the negotiating table. What could go wrong?

The commissioner accepted all of the resignations and they hired a bunch of new umpires from the minor leagues to replace them.

Interesting. I guess the strength of the union depends a lot on how easy it is to replace/find new professionals in that career space. Voice actors very rarely define the experience of a video game, nowhere that of the lead game designers. And in your example minor league umpires still officiate the same game, and generally are almost as good.

It also makes sense why doctors and hospital workers can't unionize. You can't easily replace those positions, well - at the least with somebody anywhere near the same competency.
 

Castamere

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,517
Unions are also not immune to self-inflicted wounds and incompetent leadership, either. Non-video game related, There was a situation years ago in Major League Baseball where the union representing the league's umpires attempted a negotiation tactic with the league by convincing all of the umpires to submit letters of resignation to the commissioner's office. Genius plan, right? Push the league with an ultimatum and bring them to the negotiating table. What could go wrong?

The commissioner accepted all of the resignations and they hired a bunch of new umpires from the minor leagues to replace them.

Yes, and all 22 were either rehired, compensated, or found better work in the company. Not a single one was cut off whole.
 

zoltek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,917
*Lots* of stuff businesses do is unethical as fuck, no matter how commonplace it is.
I agree. In this case you have two options though. Pay more for union work and you are more likely to receive quality work. Pay less for non-union work and risk getting what you pay for. Nothing unethical about it. Business decision. If Nintendo made a deal stating they would use union work whenever possible and then reneged on the deal, THAT would be unethical.
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
Yes, and all 22 were either rehired, compensated, or found better work in the company. Not a single one was cut off whole.
But not all of them were necessarily better off in the long run, as not all of the umpires that petitioned to be rehired were, nor did they all end up receiving better work in the end.

Regardless of the outcomes for the individual umpires involved, their union encouraged them to engage in a very stupid tactic.
 

Linde

Banned
Sep 2, 2018
3,983
fire emblem echoes has some of the best va in a Nintendo game and is fully voiced. is it non-union?
i don't think there's necessary a correlation between quality and whether it's unionised or not, buti don't know too much on the subject
 

Parthenios

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
13,672
I'm not sure if Martinet is non-union but in general yes, that is an issue IIRC. Union actors can't work on projects with people that are Non-Union which is why you get a lot of pseudonyms and non-credited roles.
I assume Nintendo values Martinet's Mario over every other voice combined. If there'd be some issue getting him they probably wouldn't think twice about using non-union.
 

Deleted member 1635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,800
It's funny because voice actors are treated as well as traditional actors in Japan but in the states they are often looked upon as second rate.

No, they are not. They are still considered second rate by most of society in comparison to on-screen actors, but it's just that there is a much larger scene of voice actor fans than there is outside of the country.
 

Deleted member 9317

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
9,451
New York
Gamers: "Cheaper is cheaper"
Also gamers: "Devs should never crunch"
Also gamers: "I hope the game doesn't get delayed. My hype is dying!"
Also gamers: "$60 games? Too expensive".
Also gamers: "Fuck lootboxes!"
Also gamers: "It's not just my favorite company that does this. My non-favorite company does this too!"

Also gamers: "Cheaper is cheaper"
 

Cipherr

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,539
I would say I would like them to use the better talent. So to use unions.

I wouldnt say I condemn them for not using it. That's a bigger deal than people are addressing. We need unions everywhere as far as Im concerned, in every major workspace. But mandating usage of them? No. That's not how you do that. Making the usage of a union mandatory is going to fuck a whole lot of stuff up. People need to at least have the option to choose otherwise. But that choice should, and often will come at the cost of inferior work, which should trickle down into an inferior product and then to inferior performance in the market versus competitors.
 

Error 52

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
2,032
Gamers: "Cheaper is cheaper"
Also gamers: "Devs should never crunch"
Also gamers: "I hope the game doesn't get delayed. My hype is dying!"
Also gamers: "$60 games? Too expensive".
Also gamers: "Fuck lootboxes!"
Also gamers: "It's not just my favorite company that does this. My non-favorite company does this too!"

Also gamers: "Cheaper is cheaper"
None of this has anything to do with anything but ok
 

PCPace

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,841
Alabama
Whatever your opinion on the ethics of using non union actors please don't insult them. I think Patricia Summerset was lovely personally and really enjoyed her performance as Zelda. If you didn't that's fine but you can say so without being mean.
 

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
86,120
Houston, TX
Whatever your opinion on the ethics of using non union actors please don't insult them. I think Patricia Summerset was lovely personally and really enjoyed her performance as Zelda. If you didn't that's fine but you can say so without being mean.
I don't fault her, but rather the ADR. It's basically the same situation as Mike West in Smash Wii U/3DS.
 

Error 52

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
2,032
Whatever your opinion on the ethics of using non union actors please don't insult them. I think Patricia Summerset was lovely personally and really enjoyed her performance as Zelda. If you didn't that's fine but you can say so without being mean.
I think in general poor dubs often come down to mismanagement or poor direction rather than bad casting.

Case in point: Final Fantasy X has a notoriously shaky English dub despite a ludicrously stacked cast.
 
Nov 2, 2017
2,266
Is it fine for Nintendo to not hire union voice actors? Sure, because not every game needs voice actors.

Is it fine for Nintendo to use non-union voice actors? Hard no.
 

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
86,120
Houston, TX
Is it fine for Nintendo to not hire union voice actors? Sure, because not every game needs voice actors.

Is it fine for Nintendo to use non-union voice actors? Hard no.
I think what you're trying to say is that not every Nintendo game needs voice acting, but the games that do have it should be unionized. Did I interpret that correctly?
 

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
86,120
Houston, TX
Fuck Nintendo. First time hearing about this
To be specific, the last game that NoA unionized was Code Name: S.T.E.A.M., which was released four years ago.

While yes, Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3 is a Nintendo-published game that's unionized, Marvel usually covers the VA bill if I recall correctly since Marvel have their own set of voice actors that they wants in various roles.