Is it really so hard to make a good Superman movie?

[Zutrax]

It's like if you had a Batman who just gunned everyone down all the time like the Punisher.

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Isn't this literally just "The Dark Knight Returns"? One of the most lauded DC comic book runs of all time?
I meant in terms of brutality, and I also have a bad habit of using "literally" all the time when I mean "figuratively" when it comes to my vernacular, but I'm striking this out so people don't continue quoting me like I'm not aware.

And another one of the more positively received "What if" scenarios for Superman being Red Son.

If you want the Superman everyone knows and loves, watch Lois and Clark. Being stuck to strict character interpretations forever can cause stagnation, and it also doesn't mean the character will stay that way, obviously Man of Steel Superman hasn't stuck as the main interpretation considering the show I literally just mentioned.

 

[Deleted member 5865]

I think Superman is outdated. The whole supreme white male thing just reeks of a yesteryear hero. Homelander is the perfect cultural critique of this brand of heroism.

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Homelander isn't a critique on Superman, or if he is its not a really good one

 

[The Adder]

Man of Steel could have been great, and that world could have made for good storytelling. They just forgot to add Superman to it. Instead it's Zack Snyder with a cape on for some reason.

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You should double check who wrote Man of Steel

 

[The Adder]

Isn't this literally just "The Dark Knight Returns"? One of the most lauded DC comic book runs of all time?

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You really shouldn't act knowledgeable about things you've never read.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

But most prominently, I've never been convinced "Superman's the icon of goodness" because any goodness he has is limited by the capitalistic nature of the medium he's in and the corporation he's owned by. For me, Superman "doing good" would include him being a destructive force against oil companies who resist our migration to cleaner energy, a physical threat to police officers who think it's okay to shoot at peaceful protestors, an him finding a way to steal Bezo's and Musk's money and property to redistribute it to communities that need it. And DC isn't going to write a story like that because they like capitalism. So all of Superman's 'doing good' is relegated to saving cats and saying racism is bad and copaganda.

Until we get a way where Superman can cross that barrier, I'd rather just get a decent action movie where he lasers the bad man's robots or whatever.

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You can't just write Superman to just solve real world issues on a macro scale because A) those problems will still exist, B) It's...not really a story?

Stories explore issues on a more focused scale, which uh...Superman does. All the time. Since the inception.

Isn't this literally just "The Dark Knight Returns"? One of the most lauded DC comic book runs of all time?

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No

No it isn't

 

[Zutrax]

You really shouldn't act knowledgeable about things you've never read.

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I did read The Dark Knight Returns, I didn't necessarily mean the gun use in of itself specifically, but more the utter brutality of that version of Batman. But I guess my understanding of these characters is going to be nitpicked to death by people that don't know me or want to give me any benefit of the doubt in being able to interpret characters or content correctly.

 

[Darknight]

I did read The Dark Knight Returns, I didn't necessarily mean the gun use in of itself specifically, but more the utter brutality of that version of Batman. But I guess my understanding of these characters is going to be nitpicked to death by people that don't know me or want to give me any benefit of the doubt in being able to interpret characters or content correctly.

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To be fair, you said it was literally The Dark Knight Returns. You can't say it's literally that but then say you didn't necessarily mean the gun usage of itself.

 

[Zutrax]

To be fair, you said it was literally The Dark Knight Returns. You can't say it's literally that but then say you didn't necessarily mean the gun usage of itself.

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I really need to stop using "literally" so frequently when I don't mean "literally" it's a bad habit in my vernacular and that's totally on me.

 

[The Adder]

I did read The Dark Knight Returns, I didn't necessarily mean the gun use in of itself specifically, but more the utter brutality of that version of Batman. But I guess my understanding of these characters is going to be nitpicked to death by people that don't know me or want to give me any benefit of the doubt in being able to interpret characters or content correctly.

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It's like if you had a Batman who just gunned everyone down all the time like the Punisher.

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Isn't this literally just "The Dark Knight Returns"? One of the most lauded DC comic book runs of all time

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So do you not understand what the word literally means then?

 

[RoninChaos]

Yeah the second half of the movie is entirely shit because of this stuff. The truck jump is probably the most egregious sin in the whole movie, it's clearly there for a trailer moment and completely against the idea of Superman to just let destruction happen. It could still be a trailer moment if they had him freeze breath it, or super breath it in the air and catch it perfectly, do anything to stop it. Instead it exists for Superman to pose in front of an explosion, Absolute garbage.

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Absolutely. That jump stands entirely in contrast to what he's supposed to be. It's just there, as you said, so he can pose in front of an explosion. In his home fucking town that he helps destroy.

It's honestly really weird how they characterize Superman because earlier in the movie, he's saving workers from a burning rig but later, he's fighting through Metropolis and gives absolutely no fucks about saving the people very clearly getting crushed by the buildings he and Zod have been toppling over. And the jerk has super hearing, so you know he can hear their screams and inevitable deaths; he just has no fucks to give, I guess.

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It's insane and makes no sense. "I'll save these oil rig workers but kill thousands in down town metropolis!"

 

[Zutrax]

So do you not understand what the word literally means then?

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See

I really need to stop using "literally" so frequently when I don't mean "literally" it's a bad habit in my vernacular and that's totally on me.

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I get it.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

Absolutely. That jump stands entirely in contrast to what he's supposed to be. It's just there, as you said, so he can pose in front of an explosion. In his home fucking town.

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Superman in that movie is shown as so passionless and lacking in humanity that he can't even be bothered to minimize casualties in the town where he grew up, much less the most populous city in the DC Universe. It's incredible how little he gives a shit.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

I did read The Dark Knight Returns, I didn't necessarily mean the gun use in of itself specifically, but more the utter brutality of that version of Batman. But I guess my understanding of these characters is going to be nitpicked to death by people that don't know me or want to give me any benefit of the doubt in being able to interpret characters or content correctly.

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In The Dark Knight Returns, Batman's level of brutality goes about as far as being really enthusiastic about getting to hit bad guys and breaking bones. Which you can psychoanalyze but character wise? He's still Batman. He's still the cool ninja guy who flies and drives cool Bat themed vehicles with his brightly clothed side kick Robin and he cares about kids and saving people's lives and making the world a better place.

And above all else, it's just a really good story, with some of the most iconic panels in comic book history.

 

[Platy]

Dark Knight Returns is a good story BECAUSE it is a deconstruction.
That is the problems of adaptations that use it as a base : you need to construct before you deconstruct

hollywood using it as a base for a movie is already starting in the wrong foot

 

[PlanetSmasher]

Dark Knight Returns is a good story BECAUSE it is a deconstruction.
That is the problems of adaptations that use it as a base : you need to construct before you deconstruct

hollywood using it as a base for a movie is already starting in the wrong foot

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Exactly. You can't deconstruct a form when there is no modern example of the form to deconstruct.

 

[Platy]

And another one of the more positively received "What if" scenarios for Superman being Red Son.

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I would love to see Snyder adapt red son.
He will get communist superman so wrong that he might get superman right

 

[mrmoose]

To be fair to Zutrax, a whole lot of comic creators took the wrong message from Dark Knight Returns and made beloved comic book characters grim and gritty to "modernize" them. Heck, the second Superman movie took a lot of inspiration from DKR, while similarly kind of missing the point.

 

[Zutrax]

To be fair to Zutrax, a whole lot of comic creators took the wrong message from Dark Knight Returns and made beloved comic book characters grim and gritty to "modernize" them. Heck, the second Superman movie took a lot of inspiration from DKR, while similarly kind of missing the point.

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Honestly, I fucked up my entire point by even uttering DKR, but it's the grave I dug. I still think my original point stands regardless lol.

 

[Firemind]

Like I said before, TDKR's themes have little in common with BvS. In BvS, Batman is the villain and Superman is the one with a moral conscious who eventually saves Batman from the pits of darkness.

 

[Uzumaki Goku]

In The Dark Knight Returns, Batman's level of brutality goes about as far as being really enthusiastic about getting to hit bad guys and breaking bones. Which you can psychoanalyze but character wise? He's still Batman. He's still the cool ninja guy who flies and drives cool Bat themed vehicles with his brightly clothed side kick Robin and he cares about kids and saving people's lives and making the world a better place.

And above all else, it's just a really good story, with some of the most iconic panels in comic book history.

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How did Miller go from that to All-Star Batman and Robin?

 

[-Tetsuo-]

Its hard to make a good movie of any kind

 

[Sibersk Esto]

In BvS, Batman is the villain and Superman is the one with a moral conscious who eventually saves Batman from the pits of darkness.

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Well his mom does at least. Specifically his mom's name.

How did Miller go from that to All-Star Batman and Robin?

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All Star Batman and Robin is satire. Not good satire but satire.

 

[mrmoose]

Like I said before, TDKR's themes have little in common with BvS. In BvS, Batman is the villain and Superman is the one with a moral conscious who eventually saves Batman from the pits of darkness.

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You're right, but Snyder took the whole Superman v Batman conflict, as well as an older more violent Batman, from DKR. A lot of the imagery as well, including the armor (of course).

 

[Uzumaki Goku]

Well his mom does at least. Specifically his mom's name.



All Star Batman and Robin is satire. Not good satire but satire.

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Didn't feel like satire....

 

[Firemind]

You're right, but Snyder took the whole Superman v Batman conflict, as well as an older more violent Batman, from DKR. A lot of the imagery as well, including the armor (of course).

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Sure, superficially it took inspiration, but thematically it puts Superman into another, more positive light. Unfortunately, it didn't help that the theatrical cut removed a bunch of Clark and Lois scenes instead of some other less important ones (the Knightmare future vision where Superman is depicted as a murdering fascist comes to mind). In the end, neither the Batman nor the Superman fans got what they wanted.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

Sure, superficially it took inspiration, but thematically it puts Superman into another, more positive light. Unfortunately, it didn't help that the theatrical cut removed a bunch of Clark and Lois scenes instead of some other less important ones (the Knightmare future vision where Superman is depicted as a murdering fascist comes to mind). In the end, neither the Batman nor the Superman fans got what they wanted.

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If BvS was a frame by frame adaptation of TDKR, Superman would come out looking better lol

 

[Beren]

You should double check who wrote Man of Steel

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Dunno what this is supposed to mean. I know who wrote it and who directed it.

 

[The Adder]

Dunno what this is supposed to mean. I know who wrote it and who directed it.

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Just making sure you're aware you're talking about 3 different people. As "Snyder with a cape" makes it seem you thought he wrote it.

 

[Beren]

Just making sure you're aware you're talking about 3 different people. As "Snyder with a cape" makes it seem you thought he wrote it.

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I did not actually think that. I was commenting on how Snyder shoved so much of himself into the protagonist that it no longer resembled Superman.

 

[Jeffolation]

Doesn't get much better than Man of Steel for cape flicks period.

 

[SPRidley]

All Star Superman exists. Animated Superman exists. Superman and Lois exists. Reeves' Superman exists.

And yet here we are trying to fucking deconstruct him or make him jesus isntead of just making and actual good superman movie like the things above.

 

[The Adder]

I did not actually think that. I was commenting on how Snyder shoved so much of himself into the protagonist that it no longer resembled Superman.

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But he wasn't the one who wrote the protagonist.

Directors have a lot of control, but directors aren't writers. And it was written before they even chose Snyder to direct.

 

[Beren]

But he wasn't the one who wrote the protagonist.

Directors have a lot of control, but directors aren't writers. And it was written before they even chose Snyder to direct.

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Directors have the final say so. And the writers directly work with them. Given how into that process Snyder is, he absolutely had a large say in the script process and what he wanted to show. Scripts aren't just done and unchanged once the camera starts rolling.

 

[Syntsui]

Man of Steel is amazing, what the hell is wrong with you

 

[Bor Gullet]

They will never be able to please everyone. Superman Returns has everything you're looking for and i found it boring as shit.

MOS is right up my alley but would have tweaked a few things. But i understand the hate as well.

I think Superman would be a great HBO series. Too bad it would be too expensive.

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It doesn't, actually. The characterization of Superman in Returns is the main reason why the movie doesn't work for me.

 

[Spinluck]

not at all, same with games. well, both those things are hard as fuck to make but Superman isn't some special case.

he has, unfortunately, been really fucking unlucky for a while now.

just look at how much garbage Spider-Man or Batman content is out there. get the right talent to make a Superman thing and it will probably be good.

PS, i did think a decent portion of MoS was actually pretty dope. not a good movie but the potential there was insane and they mostly dropped the ball.

 

[ZeoVGM]

Man of Steel is amazing, what the hell is wrong with you

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It's okay at best. Not amazing at all.

 

[jdstorm]

The biggest issue with " Modern Superman" is that Clark is an immigrant and coded to be a POC in many ways.

Movie execs don't want to admit that a Modern Superman is not Caucasian and that his journey is going to touch on big issues like immigration among others before act 1 ends

 

[Sibersk Esto]

The biggest issue with " Modern Superman" is that Clark is an immigrant and coded to be a POC in many ways.

Movie execs don't want to admit that a Modern Superman is not Caucasian and that his journey is going to touch on big issues like immigration among others before act 1 ends

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"Superman is an immigrant story" is a nice talking point but has never actually been true in like…any medium.

Sure he comes from a faraway place and now resides in America, and yes you can use that to say something about immigrants, but nothing about Superman otherwise fits.

He has no memory of his ancestral home because it was destroyed AND they deserved it. Superman never faced anything resembling what immigrants face in the real world. He's benefited from being a white man all his life and has blind spots because of it.

What Superman is actually about is power and the fantasy of Superman is that we actually have the "right" person with that power.

 

[lorddarkflare]

I think Superman is outdated. The whole supreme white male thing just reeks of a yesteryear hero. Homelander is the perfect cultural critique of this brand of heroism.

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Homelander is a deconstruction. Or maybe a reconstruction depending on how you look at it.

Homelander is what you expect from a superman. From an 'ubermensch'. Superman has been around so long that we forget the creators knew what they were doing when they made him.

Every other Kryptonian not in Superman's direct family influence is pretty much some variation of what Homelander is.

The idea is that Martha and John managed to thread the needle to raise him 'right.'

And while he is often mythologized in a way that makes his goodness seem superhuman, not all portrayals go for that. Nu52 and particularly Superman and Lois play around quite a bit with his humanity and fallibility.

 

[Firemind]

Sure he comes from a faraway place and now resides in America, and yes you can use that to say something about immigrants, but nothing about Superman otherwise fits.

He has no memory of his ancestral home because it was destroyed AND they deserved it. Superman never faced anything resembling what immigrants face in the real world. He's benefited from being a white man all his life and has blind spots because of it.

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It fits second/third/etc generation immigrants. Sure, Clark is a white male raised in rural America but to people who don't know him, he's simply Superman, an extraordinary person who is vastly different from them. It obviously has parallels of people's experiences today who have to endure racism, bigotry and hate crimes nearly every day. How Clark mentally struggles with being 'the other' and overcomes them can absolutely be a valid take of the character.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think lot of people still believe Superman is a parallel of American exceptionalism due to its long history. The sooner Hollywood shakes off that image, the better.

 

[makonero]

It fits second/third/etc generation immigrants. Sure, Clark is a white male raised in rural America but to people who don't know him, he's simply Superman, an extraordinary person who is vastly different from them. It obviously has parallels of people's experiences today who have to endure racism, bigotry and hate crimes nearly every day. How Clark mentally struggles with being 'the other' and overcomes them can absolutely be a valid take of the character.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think lot of people still believe Superman is a parallel of American exceptionalism due to its long history. The sooner Hollywood shakes off that image, the better.

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"the american way" was always a shackle that didn't fit who clark was

"better tomorrow" is a much better third goal in addition to truth and justice

 

[AndrewDean84]

Superman is a lame character, so it seems like it would be hard to create a good story that made sense. Like, how do they introduce kryptonite this time.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

Superman is a lame character, so it seems like it would be hard to create a good story that made sense. Like, how do they introduce kryptonite this time.

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Batman was a lame character for decades too, ESPECIALLY after the Adam West show and Superfriends. All it took was a couple people who actually cared about making a good movie about the character to resurrect him in the public consciousness.

That's all Superman needs too - people who understand what makes Superman special and want to remind the world of that, instead of trying to rewrite him into someone completely different.

 

[AndrewDean84]

Batman was a lame character for decades too, ESPECIALLY after the Adam West show and Superfriends. All it took was a couple people who actually cared about making a good movie about the character to resurrect him in the public consciousness.

That's all Superman needs too - people who understand what makes Superman special and want to remind the world of that, instead of trying to rewrite him into someone completely different.

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I don't know. Batman is lame too, but he's got the villains that carry him. Superman villains are not good. But maybe that's just a "me" thing.

 

[RoninChaos]

Superman is a lame character, so it seems like it would be hard to create a good story that made sense. Like, how do they introduce kryptonite this time.

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Out of curiosity, who isn't a lame character to you?

 

[jdstorm]

Homelander is a deconstruction. Or maybe a reconstruction depending on how you look at it.

Homelander is what you expect from a superman. From an 'ubermensch'. Superman has been around so long that we forget the creators knew what they were doing when they made him.

Every other Kryptonian not in Superman's direct family influence is pretty much some variation of what Homelander is.

The idea is that Martha and John managed to thread the needle to raise him 'right.'

And while he is often mythologized in a way that makes his goodness seem superhuman, not all portrayals go for that. Nu52 and particularly Superman and Lois play around quite a bit with his humanity and fallibility.

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I'm not the most familiar person with all the subject matter.

However the Kent's are not financially well off and money is seen as a struggle - typical with many migrant experiences

Clark is the starting QB at his high school. Your prototypical modern athlete stereotype isn't white

A core part of the character is that one of Clark/Kal-el is real and the other is the character either trying to pass as normal (Kal-El is the real) or in the other Clark is real and Kal is how he manages with the crushing weight of what's expected of him ( Clark is real) and a way to fit in

Both are atypical experiences for migrant/POC people

At its core Clark's kindness is informed by trauma and loss. He helps because he knows hurt. He knows struggle and he knows that even with superpowers life is too hard to be an asshole.

 

[John Doe]

"Superman is an immigrant story" is a nice talking point but has never actually been true in like…any medium.

Sure he comes from a faraway place and now resides in America, and yes you can use that to say something about immigrants, but nothing about Superman otherwise fits.

He has no memory of his ancestral home because it was destroyed AND they deserved it. Superman never faced anything resembling what immigrants face in the real world. He's benefited from being a white man all his life and has blind spots because of it.

What Superman is actually about is power and the fantasy of Superman is that we actually have the "right" person with that power.

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Yeah I don't really get the idea that Superman is meant to be an immigrant. That's a Martian Manhunter story. Superman's always been coded as a nerdy white guy. It wasn't really until recently that people have emphasised his alien origins.

The point of Superman, is that he's more human than the rest of us in that he represents what an "ideal" human is supposed to be. No one has really "othered" him in his portrayals.

Martian Manhunter on the other hand has to pretend he's someone he's not and hide his true heritage to fit in, that's an immigrant story.

Homelander is a deconstruction. Or maybe a reconstruction depending on how you look at it.

Homelander is what you expect from a superman. From an 'ubermensch'. Superman has been around so long that we forget the creators knew what they were doing when they made him.

Every other Kryptonian not in Superman's direct family influence is pretty much some variation of what Homelander is.

The idea is that Martha and John managed to thread the needle to raise him 'right.'

And while he is often mythologized in a way that makes his goodness seem superhuman, not all portrayals go for that. Nu52 and particularly Superman and Lois play around quite a bit with his humanity and fallibility.

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Tbf if you want to say that Superman is a product of his environment, then Homelander is a product of his, chances are he doesn't turn out this fucked up if he had a normal childhood.

So how can Homelander be what you expect from a Superman when its been shown time and again that the way he is, is down to the way he was raised primarily (and I'm not excusing it).